I hope this helps.

Lapin

Much has been disputed over the following
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

But the best answer is do not Judge!! Don’t Judge its a dangerous area and we risk our own condemnation. Don’t Judge rather Love and see in each Man Christ in their Soul!
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.
Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that you may not be judged,

As for Faith outside of the formal Church?
How about the Centurion? Who Our Lord said had Faith?
Matthew 8:10
And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel.

How about Church’s formed innocently and in ignorance that pray together and believe the Faith?
I have knowledge of St Padre Pio appearing to a Protestant couple who had visited Padre Pio and he cured the husband. Many years later they began to Divorce! St Pio appeared to them and admolished them for what they intended to do! The other was the cure of a Protestant sick child!

We must bring All to the True Faith and the best way is with selfless Love!!

johnhenry, you may enjoy this story, though our British friends may have heard it before.

It was told me by an English professor friend working here a few years ago. Apparently an English gent on his first visit to Australia neglected to answer the question on his Immigration arrival card asking whether he had ever been convicted of a crime.

Upon arriving at Melbourne Tullamarine International Airport, the Immigration officer, noticing his omission, asked him if he did in fact have any criminal record.

“Oh, I didn’t think you needed that anymore to come to Australia” was the Englishman’s response.

What His Jesuit Holiness has failed to recall is that another universal and ancient use of salt is to conserve food products, to cure them. Salting hinders the growth of bacteria and putrefaction and prevents food from becoming rancid and adds to flavour too. Who does not enjoy a good prosciutto or sauerkraut with sausages? The Chinese have a wonderful salted cabbage too, traditionally conserved for wintertime nutrition. Salted fish is a favourite here in Equatorial Asia.

Perhaps His Holiness could also consider how salt stops wholesome substances from falling apart and perishing, such as the abundant “protein” found in the traditional faith and practices of the universal and ancient Church of Rome?

Bethlehem “house of bread”, eh? In Arabic these days it is “Bait Lahm”, “house of meat”. Smacks of ” the bread I will give is my flesh for the life of the world” , doesn’t it?

On a different note, I recall that dreadful Kahlil Gibran chap’s references to bread in relation to marriage in The Prophet:

“And what of Marriage, master?” And he answered saying: . . . let there be spaces in your togetherness, And let the winds of the heavens dance between you. Love one another but make not a bond of love: Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls. Fill each other’s cup but drink not from one cup. Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf. Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone, Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music. Give your hearts, but not into each other’s keeping. For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts. And stand together, yet not too near together: For the pillars of the temple stand apart, And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other’s shadow.

Goodness! Quite suitable for a “marriage equality” civil wedding, I’d say. Toad will know.

Very curiously, when learning Arabic at the said antipodean secular university, we had to translate the Prophet from Arabic to English. The strange thing was that it was originally written in English anyway. But it didn’t sound so pretentious in Arabic, for some reason.

There are some very interesting stories here, not least those concerning the Britons’ earliest dealings and conflicts with the indigenous people of the area.

Tench appears to have bean an admirer of Rousseau and even quotes Voltaire, which may please Toad.

Unfortunately, I can find no reference in Tench’s story to the British trying to convert the natives, but some to the aboriginals’ religious behaviour .

Very enjoyable reading for those interested.

This universe must begin to smell of freshly baked bread!

Jesus was born in the “House of Bread” and comes to us as bread at every Mass.

http://museum.wa.gov.au/whats-on/almost-french-australia-french-british-rivalry-southern-oceans

If you are looking for very early extreme concern for the protection and welfare of the indigenous peoples you could look at the life of the (Downside) Benedictine Archbishop John Bede Polding (1794 – 1877). For example here and here.

We have dispossessed the aboriginals of the soil…. In natural justice, then we are held to compensation…The Fathers of this Council [the Australian Provincial Council of 1869]…. desire solemnly to lay upon the conscience of all who have property in these colonies the thought
that there is blood upon their land, and that human souls, to whom they are in so many ways debtors to natural justice, and in the name of the Redeemer, are perishing because no
man careth for them.I”

St Francis gave an example of Christian Charity when he walked to see and convert Malik-al-Kamil, the sultan of Egypt.

“.. St Francis was a supporter of the 5th Crusade. .. St Francis was chained and beaten by the Muslims after he and his companions entered the Muslim camp…St Francis didn’t just “dialogue” with the Muslim leader. He called him to conversion. this is a well known and documented facts.”

Our Lord gave Us the example of witness to the Truth and also in His public Life how to evangelise.

This world is a place of Penance! God has given man Free Will. This is not Eternity and Man will not spend Eternity here! This is not the Paradise that Adam and Eve knew. Criticisms of God and this world and suffering need to look and follow the stations of the Cross! St John says God is Love and St John did stand at the foot of the Cross with Our Lady.

This is where we must look for answers over the deaf, dumb, mute and those who had yet to be evangelised. The church understood that some of the early martys had died without Baptism but clearly with Faith. Its about the Free Will of man and how he responds to the knowledge of God that he has (sic Conscience) Knowledge put there by God when he his soul was created. There is knowledge of the flesh and knowledge of the soul/spirit.
But God is hiearchical and some souls are especially Created and endowned such as Our Lady, St Joseph. The same with the Angels these were created hierachical. The deaf, dumb, mute has a conscience as do the Aborigines.
Remember God knew they were yet to be evangilised. Evangilised places a greater responsiblity , greater possibility of Love and Salvation BUT also of hatred and Damnation!
Mans Sin is responsible for the Fallen world we currently inhabit! Original Sin brought Adam and Eves expulsion from Paradise into the world that we know and this world has toil, sweat and DEATH! Dan critique is as ancient as Cain and Abel! Sin is the cause of the Cross and suffering in this world and we are concieved in this Sin passed down through the Flesh part of man.

To carry on with the beautiful theme being debated!

John 20:22
When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

Nice Old Testament reference to the Holy Ghost!
Ecclesiasticus 1:9
He created her in the Holy Ghost, and saw her, and numbered her, and measured her.

The Trinity
Matthew 28:19
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

St John The Baptist
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.

The Sanctification of St John The Baptist in His Mothers womb at the Visitation
Luke 1:15
For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’ s womb.

Luke 12:12
For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what you must say.

The speaking in tongues (pentecost) and I suggest the confusion of language (Babel) are through the spirit breathed into Man! Language is therefor of the Soul and not of the Flesh! This means that the Holy Ghost could remove language from man or put it back!

It is the sacrament of Comfirmation that gives the Holy Ghost!

First, you seemed to suggest that, if our beliefs are true, then God was negligent when it comes to revealing Himself to the aborigines. I believe I offered one of several possible rebuttals to that claim. Rather than critiquing my rebuttal, or offering a new argument for your claim, or simply conceding my point, you changed the topic by pointing to a historical abuse that has no relevance to the issue we were arguing.

It seems that claims about atrocities (in some cases half-true, or less) are used to discredit the religious teachings of the Church. But can you explain to me how this is remotely rational? Even if the aborigines were treated in the most maximally sinful ways possible, this does not offer the slightest bit of evidence that the doctrines of the Trinity, or the Incarnation, or the Immaculate Conception, etc., are false. I stand by my claim that the Church brought the fullness of revelation to the aborigines, a revelation that had grown over centuries, and has since been understood ever more deeply by the Church.

“A Deaf, Dumb , blind man? Can that soul be saved? ” but why is he deaf, dumb and blind to begin with?

Of course, it did take a while for the Church to reach Australia with the deposit of faith- the supernatural revelation with which Christ entrusted it. That temporal lag is not much more strange, however, than the delay between the Law of Moses and the birth of Christ, or between the beginning of mankind and the revelation to Abraham. In each case, people are only being delivered partial revelation over time. Frankly, this doesn’t trouble me at all.

We moderns tend to engage in “systems” thinking- a consequence, I think, of the emergence of ideology in the 18th century. We see Catholicism and the order of salvation as a system, and thus, we cannot fathom why God would not have simply given everyone this entire system from the beginning- perhaps just after the Fall of man, or even prior to it.

The ancients and medievals, however, did not look on the faith in a system-oriented way. They frequently drew analogies with living things (plants or bodies), or with groups that grow over time (families, tribes), or things that require construction (temples). The point is, there is an inherent goodness even in the process of revelation itself. There is also the question of man’s response to revelation- we do not know what the state of the world would be today, or at any point in time, if the fullness of revelation had been given sooner or later than it was.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come .

So Our Lord and indeed the Apostles preached within constraints ( we must not discount apparitions and bilocutions in other countries such as Mary of Agreda which might not have been recorded!)

The Apostles were aware of the lost tribes and Our Lord expressly linked them to the tribes of Isreal (we understand that Israel is Gods chosen people rather than exclusively Jews
I shan’t bore you but the instructions to preech and or judge the twelve tribes are in the Commandments that Our Lord gave to the Apostles.

What do we know of the Church of Our Lord? Well its was passed on from person to person and preached and taught. It has always been by Word. We also know that the preaching would be to All Nations and the whole world and then would come a Consummation!

Lets go then to America and Russia and China and New Zealand and the Pacific Isles what about these poor souls? Well God clearly didn’t judge them on what they did not or couldn’t know! They could howvere be judged on the Natural Law that is commonly within Man and is found wherever we find men.
The more we know the more is expected of Us in Gods eyes!
The Aborigines are in the same category as those who died before Christ came and God judged them according to the level of what they knew or could know?

Invincible ignorance and the Church our Lord left preached progressively over 2000 years to the world. But we know that Fatima is at a time when through communications etc.. that the knowledge of the Gospels and the name of Our Lord is known! You don’t need to be a theologian in this matter. So I believe we are seeing now signs of global issues such as financial and economic. I think Fatima and the Triumph Of the Immaculate Heart is part of a consummation at this time followed by a promised triumph of the Faith to All men. Not the End of Time but the end of this time.

Another Feast Day linked to a lunar cycle because of Passover. Our Lady identifies with the Moon because She is the reflection of the Sun (God).
Our Lady was present at Pentecost and she remember is the Spouse of The Holy Ghost! So we find not just the Apostles BUT the Mother of God the Son, the Spouse of God the Holy Ghost, the Daughter of God the Father!
The presence of Our Lady at Pentecost has clearly deep significance!
But lets look at the speaking in tongues because it has a relevance today.
Babel
“..
According to the story, a united humanity of the generations following the Great Flood, speaking a single language and migrating from the east, came to the land of Shinar (Hebrew: שנער‎), where they resolved to build a city with a tower “whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth ..”
The Tower of Babel and the confusion of tongues that logically led to the Nations (a commonality of same language).
The Apostles are speaking and are understood in a variety of languages. Its the opposite of Babel why?
Well Our Lord came to pay the price for Adams Original Sin and through Baptist, Confession, Communion Our Sins. Man alone couldn’t make reparation to God!! Actually Man before Our Lord could not enter Heaven.
Those at Babel couldn’t reach Heaven! Only Our Lord could enable this.
Today the much touted New World Order , State and Church separation and modernism IS DOOMED to failure because it excludes Christ! Worse they won’t and can’t agree because the confusion of language is another way of saying they can’t communicate! To much vested self interest!
At Pentecost through Christ man can now understand each other! The Nations if these unite to Christ can become one again reversing Babel!
The two City’s Jerusalem (mystical City of God) and Babel (Man made City). Augustine.
What about theses languages. I have a theory which I am happy to share that one Day I think the Church will pronounce on. This is that so called mystical phenomenon including some miracles can be explained by the senses of the Spirit and not those of the Body. Now language is a way of communicating thoughts which are from the Spirit but use the Flesh as an intermediary. The language we use and learn is through the imposition of the flesh and its limitations because the spirit isn’t Old and doesn’t age. In other words we can hear with the spiritual senses and speak through the spirit and the body would render this to itself in the language known to the Body.
Mary of Agreda bilocuted to North America where the Indians knew her as the Lady in Blue
she spoke their languages and understood what was said to her. St Pio in the Confession spoke and knew other languages!
Now Akida has fire from Heaven and this is in some way tied in with Fatima. If the Church is mystically crucified and then resurrected then a future global pentecost might happen!

Many thanks for the information posted in response to a blog in the ‘*Catholicism Pure & Simple’ relating to Bell (Atkinson-Wake). This info was forwarded to my e-mail address, and confirms the findings of my research that this man is; as stated by many on these blogs; a ‘charlatan and a fake. Those of us who belong to the One True Church, must continue to share all the information we find confirming this man as ‘totally false/fake’, and allowing the those protecting the Holy See and Our Church from allowing such charlatans to enter amongst us.

* *I leave you with the Blessings of Our Lord Jesus Christ. God Bless you my child.

* *Christy Genesis. *

Before Franco Spain was breaking appart was it not! Anarchist, Monarchists, Falange didn’t the government try to kill off Franco in the Canary Isles. It was a Dragon Rapide aircraft hired and flown out from Croydon Old Airport that transported Franco from the Canaries to Morrocco.
Portugal at the time of Fatima was a Nation throwing off Christ!

The Money that flooded into Spain after his death? That money wasn’t generated within Spain it was European money. The argument is keynesian theory borrow and spend, capitol projects seek investment.
This came however at a Price and that Price was the catholic soul of Spain.
After screaming that I was wrong you now understand that it was the Cardinal Archbishop of Spain. critic.
I am not gloating over this! England has suffered from 16th Century when it lost its Catholic soul and like the Prodigal Son spent its Inheritance.
Spain is today that Catholic Prodigal SON Rabit!

Look at the History of the Netherlands, Central Banking, Free Markets and Multinational Private Business this from late 16th early 17th Century. The model was carried into England in 1688. The English economy created a hollow crown called Constitutional and the Bank of England was and still has nominees (its a private bank with shareholders). The Netherlands (Maastricht?) and battle between Catholic and Protestants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_history_of_the_Dutch_Republic
Now the international banking crisis ISN’T another matter. The separation of the State from the Church is pure Masonry (Visible Darkness) . The Spainish economy under Socialism (and Socialism and Capitolism are twin hands of Satan).
The Only recorded time Our Lord was angry was when he used the whip in the Temple against the Money Changers! The Temple system was a rip off with the sale of ACCEPTABLE animals for sacrifice and a special Temple currency!
Globalisation was the unleashing off these same private monies and free markets and national Banks upon the globe and Nations borroing to build infrastructure etc. etc. Borrowing , Borrowing more than could every be repaid!! Perpetual Debt!! The replacing of Christ with human rights! Human rights without Christ and this was the price paid by Spainb as it took the pieces of silver!

We are talking here about the last Father of Christendom speaking not just to soldiers BUT to England!! Talking to the Prodigal Son with arms outstretched! This is Christ on Earth seeking the Lost!

England and its Empire is on the Netherlands model!

According to father malachy Martin the Third Secret Of Fatima is dire and includes a breakdown of the global systems. Well this is what the financial and economic crisis is isn’t it global?

Spain under Franco and Pius XII Papacy was Catholic.
“..He outlawed anything that did not agree with catholic beliefs; this included contraceptives, homosexuality, practice of any other religion, prostitution, and divorce(all are presently legal). Franco even went as far has outlawing any other language than Spanish and took away all rights given to the autonomous regions of Spain. At this time church and state of Spain were one body and it was the responsibility of both to enforce the change towards unity. All forms of education and censorship were directed by the church. Franco was given the power from the Vatican to elect church officials, a rare privilege given by the Vatican..”

I think it appropriateon this respectable blog to show that Pius XII wasn’t a national Socialist (Nazi) but praised Catholic Spain that under Franco OBEYED THE CHURCH AND ITS TEACHINGS!
Franco was ostracised and treated as an outcast because of this wasn’t he?
Since Francos death does this still hold true? Actually for the benefit of this repected blog Spain now has Divorce, Homosexuality, Abortion..

That is entirely wrong. Before you make such assertions, I suggest you acquint yourself with the facts, as my A-level students have done in their case studies of economic and social development in Spain from 1976 to 2000, showing the remarkable transition of Spain in a very short period, becoming a nation with better health and educational standards than some of the oldest democracies in Europe. Not only that, but you need to realise this economic success was precisely the continuation of a successful programme put in place during the Franco regime, so there was actually a progression and not a contrast in the periods you mention.

You need to realise, when you make such assertions on a respected blog such as this, that you cannot get away with nonsense off the top of your head. Please refrain from such ill considered rubbish.

The ecclesial politics of Rome are always complicated, but we must believe in our Popes. Pius XII has long been explored by historians of all opinions to the point where anything shady they could pin on him should have been found. It has not been found.

This film is a piece of propaganda from the times, whatever way you want to see it! It hardly informs us one way or the other, but it is good to watch in order to understand the importance of prepared and rehearsed language in those times. We should sharpen up our own.

But Jadis is clearly spot on about Toad’s opinions. Well said!

“Where does this leave Pope Pius XII, the object of so much published hostility, and the main figure in Dalin’s short but powerful book? Can Pius really merit the words of Israel’s then Foreign Minister, Golda Meir (later Prime Minister of Israel), when she telegraphed to the Vatican on Pius’s death in 1958: “When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.”
Those who were in charge of that Nazi terror during the war years held this same view during the war itself. After Pius XII delivered his Christmas message in December 1942, the Reich Security Main Office, the German government department in Berlin responsible for the deportation of the Jews, informed its representatives, who were in charge of encouraging local leaders to permit their Jews to be deported: “In a manner never known before, the Pope has repudiated the National Socialist New European Order…. Here he is virtually accusing the German people of injustice to the Jews, and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals.”
This was stern condemnation by the Nazis of a man who is now condemned for the opposite failing. Yet nine months later, Pius XII was to upset the Nazis even more. After the German occupation of Rome and the northern part of Italy, when the SS determined to introduce the Final Solution in all areas of Italy under German military control, Pius and the Vatican took the lead in seeking to frustrate the deportation plan.”
Sir Martin Gilbert is a leading historian of the holocaust. His Wikipedia entry says “Gilbert describes himself as a proud practising Jew and a Zionist.”

Not just inane – but predictable, boring, hoary gobshite.

I find that highly unlikely, Roger, but I do not know. Can you elaborate a bit for us?
Krupp, for example?

Well, Roger, that might be true, but it puts it a bit out of Toad’s current reach for the time being.

And, how are you and Rabit getting along? Like “a house on fire,” I shouldn’t wonder!

What did the Fatima message say about Germany?What did Fatima say about Russia?
Fatima expressly mentioned Russia! The Spainish Civil War was fought between Spainish Catholics and Communists who called themselves Reds and who murdered priests, bishops and religious this is well recorded.

In 1960 the request was for the Consecration of Russia (Germany wasn’t mentioned). Further more in 1917 Germany was embroiled in the First World War so it isn’t as if Heaven wasn’t aware of Germany.

The Truth? Well those who poured money into the Russian revolution in 1917 were the same who financial supported Hitler and presumably found it was appropriate to demonise Hitler rather than Stalin? The Moscow Vatican Treaty (1962 The Pact of Metz)? I doubt whether this would have got off the ground under Pius XII. The Consecration Of Russia to the immaculate Heart was shelved presumable because of that Treaty!

Our Lord gives us the Pope appropriate to each era. The Papacy has been called for good reason the Eighth Sacrament because the Power and charism give by God to the Pope is outside of the Authority of Man to give. The Power of the keys can’t be delegated and from the time of Peter is held by one and only one! The Keys are spiritual Powers and Napoleon credited his downfall to laying his hands on the Pope (Father Malachy Martin).
So Pius XII as Pope isn’t the same as Pacelli the Bishop/Cardinal!
This has been the belief since Our Lord raised Peter to the Papacy and the Papal Power and Authority has passed down from then to now.

Pope Pius XII Papacy was traditional and Autocratic it was also marian! He is the Great Pope of Fatima which he promulgated during his pontificate. The crowning glory the Dogma of the Assumption! He was Gods choice to take man into the Age of the Bomb!
Let Cardinal Pacelli speak for himself in 1933.

“..
Suppose, dear friend, that Communism is the most visible among the organs of subversion against the Church and the tradition of Divine Revelation. Thus, we will witness the invasion of everything that is spiritual: philosophy, science, law, teaching, the arts, the media, literature, theater, and religion.

I am concerned about the confidences of the Virgin to the little Lucia of Fatima. The persistence of the Good Lady in face of the danger that threatens the Church is a divine warning against the suicide that the modification of the Faith, liturgy, theology, and soul of the Church would represent.

I hear around me partisans of novelties who want to demolish the Holy Sanctuary, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her adornments, and make her remorseful for her historical past. Well, my dear friend, I am convinced that the Church of Peter must affirm her past, or else she will dig her own tomb.

I will fight this battle with the greatest energy both inside and outside the Church, even if the forces of evil may one day take advantage of my person, actions, or writings, as they try today to deform the History of the Church.
..”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Hitler%27s_Pope

Lapin

I understand that Pius XII excelled in the acquisition of languages. If that speech of His ex-Holiness to the British was off the cuff (or mostly unrehearsed), he had a gift indeed.

Roger, at least 19 exclamation marks in a mere forty-eight lines of copy, is surely a trifle excessive? After all this is not The Beano, The Daily Telegraph, The Tablet, or OMG!!!
It is?
OMG!!!!.

Let’s hope Kathleen gives us an account of her Chartres pilgrimage.
Toad is agog. As are we all on CP&S, no doubt.