A Warning

THE DANGER OF CENTERING PRAYER

New-age or sew-age?

By JOHN D. DREHER
In the mid-seventies, Trappist Abbot Thomas Keating asked the monks, “‘Could we put the Christian tradition into a form that would be accessible to people . . . who have been instructed in an Eastern technique and might be inspired to return to their Christian roots if they knew there was something similar in the Christian tradition?”’ (Intimacy with God, 15). Frs. William Menniger and M. Basil Pennington took up the challenge, and centering prayer is the result. In a few short years it has spread all over the world.

Read the fascinating original article here

About Brother Burrito

A sinner who hopes in God's Mercy, and who cannot stop smiling since realizing that Christ IS the Way , the Truth and the Life. Alleluia!
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69 Responses to A Warning

  1. joyfulpapist says:

    Thank you, BB. An excellent article. Teresa’s quote goes to the heart of the error.

    Our Catholic tradition of meditative and contemplative prayer is a harder but certain path to the only true enlightenment, which comes from the One who is Himself the Truth, the Light and the Way.

    Like

  2. omvendt says:

    It’s of a piece with the ‘ennegram’ and sundry ‘New Age’ practices.

    Clearly, these people are still “Jung and easily Freudened” (to quote James Joyce).

    Like

  3. toadspittle says:

    When was the Dreher piece written? Just curious.

    It seems to put very succinctly the lacuna between Christianity and most everything else. As such, it is valuable reading. Non-believers (myself, at least) find the notion of anything existing outside the universe impossible to grasp, as the universe is just that – everything.
    Never mind the further idea that there is a ‘place’, also outside the universe presumably, in which bodily forms, with extension, currently exist.

    No need to try to explain. We must take it or leave it, we know.

    “The artist, like the God of the creation, remains within or behind or beyond or above his handiwork, invisible, refined out of existence, indifferent, paring his fingernails.” (to quote James Joyce)

    Like

  4. golden chersonnese says:

    Brother Ass, it is just as well to draw attention to risks in any spiritual practices, especially those originating outside Christian traditions.

    However, there is still a great need for training in contemplative prayer amongst our laity. Also what is desperately needed is further education for adults in philosophy and theology. As is often said, so many of our adults are left with the intellectual understanding of our Faith that they developed as children, this in a day where virtually all our adults are professionals and receivers of higher education.

    We have lost too many of our adults and their offspring, often because they did not have the means to grow intellectually and spiritually in our Faith (without wishing to name any of the family of bufonidae of our acquaintance).

    Like

  5. toadspittle says:

    “Also what is desperately needed is further education for adults in philosophy and theology.” says Golden C.

    Well, I for one, would have to go half way with you on that. The first half. Following on from Descartes virtually all significant philosophy has diverged from the idea of a deity. I am a dolt myself, but I fail to see how the two subjects , after Hume and Kant, can ever be compatible again (if they ever were).
    The explanation will be interesting though, I’m sure.

    Like

  6. toadspittle says:

    AND..

    “…this in a day where virtually all our adults are professionals and receivers of higher education.”

    What do you mean? All whose adults? Catholics? NeoCatholics? Everyone?

    Like

  7. golden chersonnese says:

    Dear Toad, you’re not being serious.

    As you well know, Catholics are well represented amongst philosophers and always have been. Theology is almost inconceivable without it. Even JPII won one of his doctorates upon a thesis entitled “An Evaluation of the Possibilities to Construct Christian Ethics Based on the System of Max Scheler”, Scheler of course being a 20th century phenomenologist. You will remember too the earlier blog on CP&S by mmvc on St Edith Stein (Teresa Benedicta of the Cross), who was for a while an assistant to Husserl.

    Here’s a quote from an independent source (you appreciating quotes) from Samuel Alexander , an Australian Jew (1859-1938 and as Edith Stein was also a Jew) and a philosopher-mathematician, who was the first ever Jewish fellow of an Oxbridge college:

    Some theologies do more or less without philosophy; it is always said that the Jews are not a philosophical people on the whole and are content with moral notions. But Christian theology has been, in its more abstract parts, very philosophical, and has attracted to itself some of the greatest speculative intellects. Now the danger arises thus: the demands of the religious consciousness-I mean, of course, the clarified religious consciousness — are insistent and must be met, and they lead to ideas which are mysterious indeed, but whose mystery passes more or less unnoticed by the ordinary mind; which are indeed pictorial embodiments of these insistent claims, thus the intimate harmonizing of God and man, their communion in the relation of child to father, is embodied in the idea of a God-made man, which is found in other religions, but in none with such grace and winningness as in Christianity.

    Like

  8. golden chersonnese says:

    All that having been said, what I meant was that our Catholic lay adults would benefit greatly and need access to philosophical, theological and spiritual further education and formation.

    What I can see is that they get very little, which means that we lose so many of them to what they get instead – whatever the media provide.

    I know that Catholic manpower is very stretched these days, but something must be done on the parish or deanery levels. Internet can play a big part, but it doesn’t substitute real contact with spiritual formators and Catholic brothers and sisters.

    Like

  9. omvendt says:

    Says GC:

    “As you well know, Catholics are well represented amongst philosophers and always have been. Theology is almost inconceivable without it. Even JPII won one of his doctorates upon a thesis entitled “An Evaluation of the Possibilities to Construct Christian Ethics Based on the System of Max Scheler”, Scheler of course being a 20th century phenomenologist. You will remember too the earlier blog on CP&S by mmvc on St Edith Stein (Teresa Benedicta of the Cross), who was for a while an assistant to Husserl.”

    Toad: Put that in your pipe and smoke it! 🙂

    Like

  10. toadspittle says:

    Re philosophy and theosophy.

    Golden C:
    I am serious, as you know. And your reply – to me – indicates your problem. No mention of the ain philosophers since and including Descartes, Hume, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, Russell, Wittgenstein, Heidegger and so on and so on. You cite a man called Scheler. I confess I have never heard of him. My deficiency for sure. But have you, or anyone else on here, ever read a word written by him? Honestly? Had it not been for JPii’s essay would you have ever even heard of him? Honestly? Then you cite Edith Stein, just because she was an assistant to Husserl (another real philosopher) for a while.
    At least you didn’t dig up and dust off poor old C.S.Lewis yet again.
    You might as well cite Sartre’s Uncle Albert and say look – he was a theologian! So what?
    And so you would advocate teaching Catholics about, the ideas of say, Hume or Russell or Popper?
    An excellent idea in my opinion. What do you think?

    Like

  11. toadspittle says:

    golden chersonnese:

    I think you and I are onto something here. I looked up Scheler on Wikki and found this:

    “On the Eternal in Man marked the bridge to his second period, during which Scheler turned towards metaphysics and the philosophy of science. Scheler defied the notion of a creator-God and instead suggested that Deity, Man, and World form one “becoming” process of unification, taking place in absolute time. Absolute time was a function of self-generating life and was inherent in all processes of self-regeneration, aging, and self-modification. The process of a universal, cosmic becoming took place through increasingly inter-penetrating interaction between an uncreated vital energy, or “Impulsion,” and “Spirit,” which directed impulse into existence and ideas. Both God and humanity were continually evolving towards completion and total unity.”

    This man clearly has some very interesting ideas, and I will rectify my lamentable and total ignorance of him asap, reducing it to partial ignorance, I hope.
    (Though I must say the last sentence above strains my natural optimism a bit – they seem to be evolving towards utter disaster to me!)

    Like

  12. golden chersonnese says:

    Oh come on, Toad. You are either not serious or you really do blot out what does not sit easily with you between walking the gods.

    Catholic members of philosophy faculties work all day on all the major philosophers and this you know. They seriously consider and then arrive at either a conservative or liberal position on what they have worked and gthen go on to publish and instruct.

    There is no remedy for someone who refuses by his nature (but not really) to recognise this.

    But to get back to Brother Ass’ blog, the many intelligent educated Catholic laity stand much in need of further intellectual and spiritual development, if it could only be organised on the parish, deanery or diocesan levels.

    Like

  13. golden chersonnese says:

    What an exasperating Toad.

    Like

  14. Brother Burrito says:

    Toad is a Sports Toad, a Toadster.You know the type, open top, big engine, handles well on twisty roads, and can do a handbrake turn on a sixpence.

    Talking to him is a challenge, an ultimately pointless exercise, but it may bring enlightenment through intuition.

    In this way he resembles a Zen ‘Kōan’.

    Let’s call him Tōad!

    Like

  15. toadspittle says:

    I like it!

    And so you would advocate teaching Catholics about, the ideas of say, Hume or Russell or Popper? Again asks T….and then he realises he doesn’t know how to write his own new name.

    Can Burroguru help?

    Sudden loss of interest in Scheler, it seems. Not here. Tell me honestly, as I asked. What did or do you know of him? Were you familiar with his ideas?

    Like

  16. toadspittle says:

    I read philosophy seeking for answers to the meaning of life. I have begun to realise I am unlikely to find them, in philosophy. But it is the questions that are important, more so than the answers.
    Catholics don’t need to seek answers.
    They already know what life is about.

    Like

  17. omvendt says:

    Says toad:

    “But it is the questions that are important, more so than the answers.”

    You’re beginning to sound like Bono now.

    “And I still haven’t found what I’m looking for (and I hope I never do!).”

    That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

    I just want the itch (and I never want to scratch it!)

    I just want hunger (and I never want any food!)

    I just want questions (don’t give me any answers!)

    Whimsical. 😉

    Like

  18. Brother Burrito says:

    Tōad

    (You can always copy and paste it from my comment).

    I’d suggest you drive your toadster over the border into the land of intuition, and leave reason alone for a bit. It will help with the headaches.
    Women are the masters of intuition, (or is that mistresses). Talk to her-indoors?

    Like

  19. joyfulpapist says:

    Toad, yes I would. I would teach them about the modern philosophers across the full range of opinion. And I would teach them how to structure and how to dissect a logical argument, and how to present it winningly. And I would leave the results to the Holy Spirit, and do so with confidence.

    Like

  20. toadspittle says:

    Omvendt:

    Answers would be nice. I said so. What one would like, and what one gets are not always the same thing.

    Like

  21. toadspittle says:

    “It will help with the headaches.” says Burruguru.

    I’m sorry, I had no idea I was giving you headaches.

    Like

  22. toadspittle says:

    Give them Hell, Teresa!

    Like

  23. toadspittle says:

    golden chersonnese :

    I am a patient Toad. Sit here on my log, occasionally sticking out my tongue to catch the odd flying insect.
    And waiting for an answer from you re the esteemed Phenomenologist, Scheler.

    In my mind’s eye, I see you sitting on your veranda in Borneo with you head buried in one of the Great Man’s dense and penetrating tomes.
    If you would be good enough to pull it out (your head, that is, not the tome!) and respond, I will be the happiest chap in the village.
    Except for the two official idiots of course. My rank is merely honorary.
    Did you know of his work independently of JPII’s theses? If you did, I am deeply impressed. If you didn’t… well, I can only draw my own conclusions, and we wouldn’t want that, would we?
    Maybe Omvendt can add to our fund of knowledge on this topic. He seems to have declared an interest.
    A Scheler scholar from way back, I wouldn’t wonder.

    Like

  24. golden chersonnese says:

    Dear Toad, what is your point?

    As you well know, I pointed out JPII’s doctoral thesis in response to your assertion that religion and philosophy diverged after Descartes. Clearly they haven’t and I could also point out others to you such as Bernard Lonergan SJ (one of johnhenry’s neighbours), who some consider to be one of the greatest philosophers of the 20th century. Nobody needs to understand much of Lonergan in order to point out to you the simple fact that the Church did not part company with philosophy at Descartes, which was your point.

    I have never made any claim to being an expert in philosophy. In fact, in response to mmvc’s blog article on St Edith Stein, I asked others if they knew how her philosphical background influenced her spiritual writing. I pointed out then that I have only formally studied some classical philosophy and asked if others could fill us in on St Edith Stein’s philosophy. I asked there in order to learn more.

    But of course, no-one needs to know any philosophy to refute your notion that philosophy and religion have gone their totally separate ways. They haven’t.

    Does that make you happy, dear Toad? If it does, I suggest you are the only one who understands why it should.

    Back to my original post in response to Brother Burrito’s blog article, I see that joyful has written an interesting response. She agrees that some philosophical training would be of benefit to Catholic adults for reasons that she gives above.

    And that’s more or less the point I was trying to make originally.

    Has Toad tongue-flicked enough gnats for today? Did you find you were straining at them?

    Like

  25. kathleen says:

    Yes, Toad, I was familiar with the name Max Scheler before GC mentioned him.
    Not because of his philosophy though, but because one of his comments (unwittingly) was the instrument in drawing his friend, the great Catholic philosopher and theologian, Dietrich Von Hildebrand,(1889 – 1977), into the Catholic Church. Dietrich had already begun to feel the awakening of Faith in him, but was still surprisingly ignorant. Max Scheler himself was a Catholic convert, but sadly lapsed from the Faith later on.

    According to Dietrich’s widow, Alice Von Hildebrand, the conversation which she recounts on the programme ‘Bookmark’ on EWTN went something like this……

    Max Scheler: “You know, the Catholic Church has the Truth”.
    Dietrich VH (astonished): “How do you know?”
    MS: “She produces saints!”
    DVH: “And what exactly is a saint?”

    Scheler then had to go on to explain what a saint was – Dietrich Von Hildebrand had had no religious upbringing at all – sketching the lives of St. Francis of Assisi and the doctors of the Church.
    Fascinated, Dietrich Von Hildebrand soon read them, and was particularly taken with St. Augustine.

    Dietrich Von Hildebrand went on to become one of the greatest Catholic philosophers of the twentieth century. His renowned book, “Transformation in Christ”, is well worth reading.

    Like

  26. toadspittle says:

    golden chersonnese

    Thanks for the prompt reply. We must agree to differ somewhat on this one, I think and let Scheler rest in peace.
    However, if I suggested religion and philosophy went totally separate ways, then I was wrong to do so.
    But, when Descartes started to ask what do we know about ourselves, instead of (or, in his case, as well as) what do we know about God, there was a clear change of direction. Of course, many went on in the original way, often very stimulatingly – Pascal and Kierkegaard, say – but others, those whom I think must be considered now to be the mainstream, went in pursuit of the ‘cogito,’ and continue to do so, in one form or another.
    I have said this elsewhere, but, really, if one is convinced that God exists and has provided a blueprint for getting through life, why on earth bother with philosophy?
    I wouldn’t. Who cares what the Phenomenologists and the Pragmatists think? Burroguru seems to be suggesting something similar, if I understand him correctly.
    (Although, it seems to make his head ache.)

    Heidegger asks The Big Question, “Why is there anything, rather than nothing?”
    All believers simply need to say in answer is, “God knows.”

    For the rest of us it’s more tricky.

    Like

  27. golden chersonnese says:

    Toad, again I can only point out that my original point was to suggest that the Church is losing many adults (along with their offspring) because they often have the intellectual and spiritual development that they received as children, often not enough to deal with the kinds of ideas or “feelings” that the modern media types saturate us with these days. Many adults think there is nothing else around.

    That’s why I said there was an urgent need for adult education at the parish and deanery levels. Burrito pointed out how many seeking spirituality are off doing things like the centering prayers necause that seems on offer these days. But is any other training in Christian contemplation available? Not much if any.

    Like

  28. golden chersonnese says:

    Here y’are, Toad.

    Have a look here and tell me what it means, if you would be so kind.

    http://lonergan.concordia.ca/Reader/page3.htm

    Like

  29. golden chersonnese says:

    This you might find titillating, Toad.

    Says Fr Lonergan:

    “What am I doing when I’m knowing? Why is doing that called knowing? What do I know when I do that? What am I doing when I’m valuing? What ought I to do in light of the knowledge I’ve now acquired of my knowing and my valuing?”

    Like

  30. golden chersonnese says:

    ” . . . self-appropriation is radically different from the Cartesian strategy of cutting oneself off from external objects in order to find oneself in the internal remainder. Self-appropriation is not disengagement from the world of objects but development of an understanding of oneself in the widest possible range of cognitive and moral engagements. The criteria immanent in interior operations cannot be discovered unless the interior operations occur. Accordingly, Lonergan deliberately provides opportunities in Insight for his readers to catch themselves in the act of performing cognitional operations – to experience themselves questioning, imagining, having insights, reflecting on the correctness of their insights, and making judgments. Lonergan’s subsequent accounts of deliberation, evaluation, and decision presuppose his readers’ concomitant advertence to their concrete experience of performing these moral operations . . . .”

    mmmmmmmmmmm . . . . .

    Like

  31. Brother Burrito says:

    It’s alright Tōad,

    Fr Lonergan is not related to Lonnie Donegan, another clever chap.

    Like

  32. golden chersonnese says:

    What I heard about Lonergan twenty years ago from someone who’d made a study of him is that his ideas would take a century to affect culture, partly because your professional philosophers are a bit stuck in their ways and can’t handle him, it’s all a bit difficult for them.

    Like

  33. Brother Burrito says:

    I always thought Descartes was wrong with “I think therefore I am”.

    Of necessity, being must come before doing (which includes thinking). Thus: “I am, and I am thinking about stuff”.

    Or as Frank Sinatra would put it: “Be Do, Be Do, Be Do.”

    Like

  34. golden chersonnese says:

    Blog commission for Toad, brother ass? –

    Read the whole of Lonergan before next week and serve it to us here in nice digestible chunks.

    Like

  35. golden chersonnese says:

    Didn’t Descartes say that to prove to himself that he actually existed?

    So in a sense “I think therefore I am” sort of can mean “I must actually be before I can think. I do think so I must actually be.”

    Like

  36. golden chersonnese says:

    That would be delightful, Teresa, and might even get dear old Toad’s tongue flicking bigtime.

    Like

  37. Brother Burrito says:

    Teresa,

    “What a miserable existence. And their existence exhibits what hell is like.”

    I think you have just had a Dantean vision!

    Like

  38. Brother Burrito says:

    I dedicate that video to johnhenry,

    for he spends so much of his time down in the dumps, and the troll bin. 😉

    Like

  39. Brother Burrito says:

    Tōad, if you are watching,

    I’ll advance you two slugs and eight bluebottles, if you accept that commission.

    Give us one croak for yes….

    Like

  40. golden chersonnese says:

    srdc wrote about the new atheists and how they snarl ferociously (like this avatar that I’m trying to change) whenever anybody mentions Catholicism. It’s almost pathological with them.

    srdc also mentioned that the classical atheists are cool atheists and much more self-possessed and tolerant.

    Like

  41. Mimi says:

    Toad said:

    “I have said this elsewhere, but, really, if one is convinced that God exists and has provided a blueprint for getting through life, why on earth bother with philosophy?
    I wouldn’t. Who cares what the Phenomenologists and the Pragmatists think?”

    Speaking as an ignoramus who has never studied philosophy (and who has never even heard of most of the philosophers mentioned in this thread), I think the Toadster has this one nailed dead centre. Anyone who needs a philosophical justification for their faith doesn’t have any faith worth talking about.

    Like

  42. rebrites says:

    Burro, Mr. Toad will no doubt consider your mouth-watering offer, but he is off today Doing Good in the Village. You may have to give him extra time to get his webby hands on the needed volumes as we have to send away to foreign lands for copies. And we have a backlog of “New Yorkers” that want his attention…

    Like

  43. golden chersonnese says:

    Here’s a blog in the Grauniad about the new atheists, Teresa.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2008/dec/29/religion-new-atheism-defined

    Shows you their symptoms.

    Like

  44. Brother Burrito says:

    Our pet cybermuppet Judy Haddock over at DT is a case in point. 24/7 vicious bitchiness, with occasional pauses for breath.

    She has been on show now for 3 months. I think everyone there is thoroughly sick of her. She is a great advertisement for her evil faith.

    Judy, I know you are reading this. I am pointing at that herd of swine yonder at the IndependentGuardianTimes.
    Do you see them?

    Like

  45. golden chersonnese says:

    Hello Rebrites, some of your local Jesuits might have copies as Bernard Lonergan was a Jesuit. I hear the General of the Jesuits is from Palencia, not too far from you, is it?

    We will give him two weeks, if you insist. 🙂

    Like

  46. golden chersonnese says:

    I’m still getting the snarling new atheist dingo here beside my post, Teresa. I give up.

    Like

  47. golden chersonnese says:

    Mimi, I’m sure you are right.

    Like

  48. leftfooter says:

    Forgive me if I indulge in a little grovelling (I grovel, therefore I am).

    Brother Burrito!

    Your blog and its comments are a university in themselves, and the level of debate is far beyond anything I remember at University from Freddie Ayer and his mob, or the theological big guns. I was too late for C .S. Lewis and Elizabeth Anscombe.

    Need to read up on the sources referenced here. I’ll be back!

    God bless!

    Like

  49. golden chersonnese says:

    No. Kenny was a philosopher, which none of the new atheist gurus are. And that, it seems, makes all the difference.

    Like

  50. golden chersonnese says:

    Mimi, I’ve read someone call Pope Benedict “a theologian who attempts to make faith reasonable to a reason trained to refuse it.”

    Like

  51. golden chersonnese says:

    sorry “calling” not “call”

    Like

  52. golden chersonnese says:

    Teresa, have you ever seen the website of the new atheists?

    http://newatheists.org/

    Have a listen to the “second hour” of the “Four Horsemen” (Dawkins and friends) and see if Catholic adults and young people don’t need some philosophical training and spiritual/prayer formation, just like the point I was making above.

    Like

  53. golden chersonnese says:

    I hope you can see the video, Teresa. I am sorry, but at times it’s like a parody of new atheists – the way they talk and look and what they say.

    Like

  54. kathleen says:

    Teresa (at 10:18)

    About the atheist blog:
    “…..every post is a piece of news which [the atheists] get from Catholic news agencies, and whatever this news is about, they have their joy in slandering and abusing the Church.”

    Yes, what a warped way of thinking, to get such pleasure from hate-filled slanderings of the Catholic Church! These attacks are aimed at the Catholic Church rather than any other religion…… one can ask oneself, WHY? And if they are so sure of themselves in their disbelief of the existence of God (and therefore of His Church), why should they care?
    But the fight between “The Woman” and “Dragon” will continue till the end of the world……. until finally the dragon’s head will be crushed. This fight takes different forms, but it is in today’s spiritual form that is the most dangerous and harmful.

    As Golden Chersonnese, Teresa and others have pointed out – we need to be as well prepared as possible for this modern day crusade against us. Knowledge of our Faith in all aspects is vital, as is a lifestyle of prayer and good example within the Catholic Church.

    We mustn’t become discouraged or pessimistic. Keep smiling friends!

    Like

  55. kathleen says:

    Golden Chersonnese says:

    “I’ve read someone calling Pope Benedict “a theologian who attempts to make faith reasonable to a reason trained to refuse it.””

    What a wonderful statement!

    Like

  56. toadspittle says:

    Somebody called Leftfooter compliments CP&S.

    And well he/she might. Not content with the dropping of a veritable pantheon of the usual illustrious names, both Philo and Theo, on this ‘thread,’ we have dropped a particularly intriguing couple that nobody, except Kathleen it seems, has heard of. Certainly not me.
    One more name let fall before I go back to work; Schopenhauer, (couldn’t leave Artur out!) who said, “Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see. “

    I will certainly delve into Lonergan, as best I can, on the web. Mustn’t rush it.

    Like

  57. golden chersonnese says:

    Kathleen says:

    Yes, what a warped way of thinking, to get such pleasure from hate-filled slanderings of the Catholic Church! These attacks are aimed at the Catholic Church rather than any other religion…… one can ask oneself, WHY? And if they are so sure of themselves in their disbelief of the existence of God (and therefore of His Church), why should they care?
    __________________________________________

    Kathleen, you should sue Professor Greg Craven, Vice-Chancellor of the Australian Catholic University for gross copyright infringement. See:

    http://newsstore.theage.com.au/apps/viewDocument.ac?multiview=true&sy=age&page=1&kw=Craven&pb=all_ffx&dt=selectRange&dr=1year&so=relevance&sf=author&rc=10&rm=200&sp=nrm&clsPage=1&hids=&sids=AGE091104RJ5D23L94OD

    You can’t now see the comments that the enraged atheists defecated at the bottom of Prof Craven’s piece. But they were the usual stuff – Prof Craven should be sacked as Vice-Chancellor, the Catholic Church should lose its tax-exempt status, what’s this man doing in a tertiary institution, “Catholic University” is a contradiction in terms etc. etc. etc. . . . . .

    Lordie, it was funny.

    Like

  58. golden chersonnese says:

    Oh yes., Teresa, they are a hoot.

    Mainly because so many of them are real plebs, like Judy8 Haddock.

    Like

  59. golden chersonnese says:

    Toad said:
    I will certainly delve into Lonergan, as best I can, on the web. Mustn’t rush it.
    ________________________________

    Thank you, dear Toad. We are counting on you.

    Like

  60. golden chersonnese says:

    Kathleen says:
    “I’ve read someone calling Pope Benedict ‘a theologian who attempts to make faith reasonable to a reason trained to refuse it.’ ”

    What a wonderful statement!
    ____________________________________

    I ought to fess up and say it was Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais (one of the bishops illegally ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1988) who said it.

    His article is here, but it’s 74 pages long in very small print:

    Like

  61. golden chersonnese says:

    Teresa says:

    Culture prevents people from becoming radical. Humanity prevents people from becoming intolerant.
    _____________________________

    Same as saying most of these foamy-mouthed new atheists are such plebs?

    Like

  62. golden chersonnese says:

    Hello, Teresa, mind if I ask you am I still a dingo where you are or a proboscis monkey?

    I’m still a dingo here.

    Like

  63. golden chersonnese says:

    How exasperating.

    Like

  64. golden chersonnese says:

    And you are indeed a gentlewoman. 🙂

    Like

  65. toadspittle says:

    “the doggy is still there, what to do. Shall we import cats?”

    Try amphibians.

    Like

  66. toadspittle says:

    golden chersonnese says: September 2, 2010 at 08:15

    http://lonergan.concordia.ca/Reader/page3.htm

    I have just read through it, quickly and sketchily. I will re-read it slowly and carefully and make notes. My first reaction, although this is not source material of course – is that Lonergan is well worth respect, probably more than he normally gets.
    The piece here indicates why; the philosophers dismiss him as a theologian and the theologians write him off as a philosopher, The perils of catholicity ( small ‘c’)

    More importantly, he doesn’t appear on this showing, to fall back onto God and ‘sacred’ texts as a justification for everything, or indeed anything. No Gospel, the Wonderdrug. Sorry, Bugguru. But we shall see. Lonergan must be allowed to speak for himself.

    The para you quote above, about ‘knowing,’ is Cartesian for sure, almost a parody, I suspect. Not a criticism, the opposite, in fact.

    Much more work to be done. But I am looking forward to it.

    Like

  67. kathleen says:

    Golden chersonnese,
    Re your comment and link at 17:15 yesterday……..
    Thanks for that. Amazing coincidence indeed in the similarity of ideas! I’m flattered.

    Like

  68. golden chersonnese says:

    Thanks, Toad. I’d be very interested.

    Twenty years ago I knew one fellow who finished his theology degree with a study of Lonergan.

    He then left his order and joined an Ecclesia Dei society and has been directing the choir ever since for weekly EF Masses.

    Like

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