The Story of Garabandal – fifty years later

Garabandal

During a time when I was working in Spain I befriended a very devout little old lady called Blanca, who I had often seen deep in prayer in front of the Blessed Sacrament. In the course of our conversations together, she told me the fascinating story of Garabandal, a tiny village in northern Spain, in the province of Santander, near the rugged and beautiful mountains called ‘Picos de Europa’. (The full name of the village is San Sebastian de Garabandal.)  Blanca was an eyewitness to some of the most extraordinary events that took place there from 18th June 1961 to 13th November 1965.

As we draw near to the fiftieth anniversary of the first apparition, let us look at some of the facts of the story of Garabandal. (Please note that these are private revelations and no one is obliged to believe in them.)

The Seers

The Seers

Four girls: Conchita, Mari Loli, Jacinta and Mari Cruz, aged between 11 and 12 years of age, had many ongoing visions, ecstasies and locutions with the Blessed Virgin Mary. The apparitions were so numerous and some of these were so disarmingly normal, natural and sweet, that it has set the apparition site of Garabandal apart from any other where the Blessed Virgin has previously appeared.

The Visions

Whilst the four girls were playing in an orchard on 18th June 1961 there was a sudden thunderclap and to their surprise they saw before them the bright figure of the Archangel Michael. He appeared to them again in the same place on the following days and announced that on 2nd July they would see Our Lady. This was the beginning of the Garabandal apparitions. The news spread quickly through the region. The 2nd July was a Sunday and the town was crowded with people from all social levels and very many from out of town, among them several physicians and priests. At 6pm the girls went to the place where the Angel had appeared, and immediately entered into ecstasy. Our Lady appeared to them accompanied by two angels, one being St. Michael. After this first apparition there were many more. They spoke openly and familiarly with their Heavenly Mother and said the rosary in her presence. During 1961 and 1962 Our Lady appeared several times each week. The four girls did not always receive the apparition together. Sometimes only one, other times two or three of them saw the vision. Nor was it always at the same hour of the day. Our Lady appeared many times at night and even early in the morning, in an attitude of sacrifice and penance, at the same hours when Our Lord is most offended by the sins of men. Even so, the girls would arise the following morning, as early as usual, to work in the fields, carrying bundles of grass or wood, or tending the cattle and sheep, without showing signs of fatigue. Mari Cruz had her last vision in 1962, Mari Loli and Jacinta in 1963, and only Conchita continued to have visions until 1965, although these became less and less frequent.

When the vision appeared, the girls fell instantaneously on their knees, striking the sharp rocks with a loud noise that was frightening, yet they showed no signs of injury. The expression on their faces was suddenly transformed, becoming extraordinarily beautiful, sweet, one of profound mysticism. They were completely absorbed in their rapture, unaware of anyone or any material thing around them except for each other. In fact all attempts to distract them failed. They did not react to pricks, burns or blows, nor even to the powerful beams of strong light focused on them when their eyes would not so much as flicker or blink. Quite the contrary, their eyes remained wide open, expressing a look of intense joy. During these ecstasies, which lasted anything from a few minutes to several hours, time did not seem to count. On many occasions they remained immobile in off-balance, beautiful “sculptured-like” positions, heads tilted far back, eyes looking up, kneeling on the rocks or bare-legged in the snow. At the end of the ecstasy they showed no signs of excitation or nervousness, just deep, profound peace and joy.

Many visitors and villagers gave the girls various objects, such as bibles, rosaries, scapulars, medals, crucifixes, wedding rings, etc. for Our Lady to kiss. In ecstasy, the girls raised them up to Her and She kissed them. Then, guided by Our Lady, the girls returned the items to their correct owners, even in cases where the person had first confided the object to someone else so the child did not know who the real owner was. Things “kissed” by Our Lady have been the instruments of very special favours.

There was other phenomena during the time of the visions, including ecstatic walks when the girls seemed to defy the laws of gravity as though endowed by some sort of spiritual agility. Guided solely by the vision, they ran or walked at great speed down the steep mountainside, even backwards, so that it was impossible for the astonished spectators to follow them.

The Miracle of the Host

(footage of the miraculous Host starts at 2:45)

The Miracle of the Host is one of the most amazing occurrences at Garabandal. Previously, on occasions when their parish priest from the neighbouring village was unable to visit Garabandal, the girls recounted how they had sometimes received Holy Communion from an angel of the Lord who had appeared to them with a golden chalice, requesting that they pray the Confiteor beforehand. Then on 18th July 1962, when the town was crowded with visitors, this miracle was captured on film. At midnight Conchita, who had remained in her home continually surrounded by visitors, entered into ecstasy and went out into the street. At a short distance from her house she fell down on her knees in the midst of the crowd. Lanterns were focussing on her as she put out her tongue upon which nothing was resting, as everyone could see. In a few moments, a white host appeared on her tongue and remained there for a few minutes.

Father Luis Marie Andreu

The only other person to see Our Blessed Mother at Garabandal was a 38 year old Spanish Jesuit priest, Father Luis Marie Andreu. On 8th August 1961 Father Luis was among the spectators at ‘The Pines’ above the village when suddenly he became an integral part of the Garabandal drama. He was heard to say, “Miracle! Miracle!” Not only did he see the Virgin Mary, but he was shown the forthcoming Great Miracle. Although he had never had any history of serious illness, he died that same night of complete joy. His final words were:

Oh! What a sweet and lovely mother we have in Heaven….how happy I am….what a favour the Blessed Virgin has bestowed on me! How fortunate we are to have a mother like her in Heaven!…… The girls have given us an example of how we must act with the Blessed Virgin. There is no doubt in my mind that the things involving the girls are true. Why should the Blessed Virgin have chosen us? This is the happiest day of my life.

With these words Father Luis lowered his head and died. In a subsequent vision, the Virgin told the seers that Fr. Luis had seen her and a preview of the Great Miracle and that he died of joy.

Our Blessed Mother showed special attention and concern for all priests, repeatedly asking that they come to Garabandal. She gave the girls the ability to recognise them even when they came dressed as laymen, revealing the state of their souls. Over and over again she asked everyone to pray and make sacrifices for priests, because Satan is constantly trying to tempt and trap the souls of priests. She taught the children that priests were more important even than the angels because by means of their ordination they alone among all men have the power to change the bread and wine into the Sacred Body and Blood of Christ during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The Warning and Great Miracle

The Blessed Virgin spoke of a Warning to come, and a Great Miracle which will be announced in advance by Conchita – no one knows when – yet these do not appear to be the main reasons for Her coming. (A ‘Great Sign’ will afterwards be permanently visible at The Pines above the village.) Like any mother who loves her children, the Blessed Virgin, taught and guided the girls, in a natural and loving manner, the path to Heaven. She lamented the sins of mankind that so offend Her Divine Son, and she repeated many times the need for prayer and penance for priests, love for the Holy Eucharist, Eucharistic Devotion, and visits to the Blessed Sacrament. Only then, if these messages are not heeded, will a ‘Chastisement’ befall mankind. This seems to be very much in line with other apparition sites, notably Fatima and La Salette.

The Fruits of Garabandal

The fruits of Garabandal are all very positive. In spite of the fact that the memories of these visions of Our Lady dimmed in the girls’ minds, even to the point when they said they had never happened, they reiterated the truth of them later on. (Our Lady had foretold them, much to their incredulity at the time, that this would happen.) All four girls married and had children; Mari Cruz’s husband is Spanish and she is the only one still living in Spain; Conchita, Mari Loli and Jacinta married Americans, and Conchita and Jacinta are living in the USA. They lead humble prayerful lives, fulfilling their duties as wives and mothers. Mari Loli, who also lived in the USA, died just before her 60th birthday in April 2009 after a long illness and much suffering, both physical and spiritual. Mari Loli offered all her sufferings up for the sanctification of priests, just as Our Lady had requested of her.

Another of the good fruits of Garabandal is the conversion of many sinners and unbelievers and those of different faiths. Those suffering from religious indifference have experienced an increase in Faith, Hope and Charity.

Conclusion

The Catholic Church has prudently withheld her opinion over the apparitions at Garabandal, nor will it pronounce on them until the promised ‘Warning’, and the ‘Miracle’ take place. Nevertheless, the Bishop of Santander, Don Eugenio Beitia wrote:

We point out, however, that we have not found anything deserving of ecclesiastical censorship or condemnation either in the doctrine or in the spiritual recommendations that have been publicised as having been addressed to the faithful…..”

Saint Padre Pio of Pietrelcina and Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta endorsed the apparitions too.

All the Blessed Virgin’s messages urging people to give greater value to the Holy Eucharist, go regularly to Confession, pray more (especially for priests), make sacrifices, meditate on the Passion of Jesus, have a holy fear of offending God, be obedient to the Magisterium of the Church, and above all to lead good lives, are totally in unison with Catholic teaching. At the Blessed Virgin’s last apparition to Conchita she said: “Conchita, I am not coming only for you but I am coming for all my children, with a desire to bring them closer to Our Hearts.” (i.e. The Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.)

To learn more about Garabandal:  http://www.garabandal.org/

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213 Responses to The Story of Garabandal – fifty years later

  1. Mr Badger says:

    In fact all attempts to distract them failed. They did not react to pricks, burns or blows, nor even to the powerful beams of strong light focused on them when their eyes would not so much as flicker or blink.

    Who carried out all these rather mean spirited tests?

  2. Ed Kelly says:

    Good job. Just a week ago the Garabandal pastor, Father Rolando, said Mass outside the village church celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the first appearance of the angel there. In his homily he spoke of the special things that happened at the village starting fifty years ago and ended reading a letter from one of the “visionaries” Conchita Gonzalez Keena. Another of the girls, Jacinta, was present and spoke with reporters.
    Material on the celebration and more up-to-date information on Garabandal can be found on line at the Santander daily, el Diario Montanes.

  3. kathleen says:

    Thank you very much for this interesting information Ed.
    I met Jacinta myself when, with a group of friends, I visited Garabandal in 1996. She had come from the USA, with her husband and daughter, to see her mother.

  4. My thoughts on the “three more Popes” is that a new Era has begun and many incredible things will soon begin. We see how the “stem cell” era is just beginning and with it such benefits to mankind: very long lifetimes, growing of body organs (bladder, throat, kidneys, heart) etc. And the recent invention of “cold fusion” fusion at very low temperatures will bring abundant and safe energy, replacing the dangerous Atomic Power plants.. “On Earth as in Heaven” could very well be in store for us – if we do as we are told by our Lady in Heaven!
    JDH

  5. BLESSED MADRE MARAVILLAS OF JESUS, O.C.D. (1891-1974) was convinced of the authenticity of Garabandal.

    http://www.mensagemdegarabandal.com/products/blessed-madre-maravillas-of-jesus/

  6. Marian. says:

    Marian. Rio

    Very. Good job, thank you all for this information.

    Yo. Fui. Dos veces y tuve la suerte de conocer a jacinta. Y. Recibir las gracias de la santisima. Virgen. La. Virgen sigue concediendo muchas Bendiciones a Los que llegan a garabandal con. Fe.

  7. kathleen says:

    Gracias Marian.
    Estoy de acuerdo contigo, que Garabandal es un sitio muy especial. Yo tambien creo en las apariciones de la Virgen Maria, pero hasta que no se cumplen las profecias que ella conto a las niñas, la iglesia no puede pronunciar sobre su auntenticidad.

  8. toadspittle says:

    .
    “They did not react to pricks, burns or blows, nor even to the powerful beams of strong light focused on them when their eyes would not so much as flicker or blink. Quite the contrary, their eyes remained wide open, expressing a look of intense joy. “

    Why not just chuck them on a bonfire, and be done with it?

  9. kathleen says:

    Well, obviously dear Toad, all this was done to see if the little girls were faking their visions! It would be pretty hard not to react to all that ‘torture’ with a resounding “OUCH!”, rather than remain still with a continued expression of “intense joy”, don’t you think?😉

    The same sort of thing was tried on St. Bernadette of Lourdes and the little children of Fatima, with same result. This naturally inclines one to believe that these visions of the Blessed Virgin were authentic, just as the children affirmed.

  10. Jerry says:

    Judging by the photo, Garabandal looks to be a beautiful village. Lovely. An odd story, then again it was the sixties

  11. kathleen says:

    Hi Jerry! Yes, Garabandal is a very pretty village set in a beautiful wide open green landscape. (It rains a lot in this part of Spain.) You can see for miles from the top of the hill…… where many of the supposed visions of Our Lady took place. One cannot help imagining that it would be the ideal setting for the foretold ‘miracle’ to take place, where literally millions of people could congregate at one time.

    Personally I don’t find the story ‘odd‘ at all. The prevailing sixties‘ mentality did not seem to have reached the little village of Garabandal.

  12. Jerry says:

    Kathleen, the stunning photo at the top of this post inpired me to do some google-image searching. Can you tell me what the nearby mountain range is called? (Although I can’t tell if it’s north, south, or any which way🙂 )

    Yes, it does seem like an ideal setting for a miracle, I don’t know enough to comment on that, but the setting is certainly quite something

  13. toadspittle says:

    .

    “Our Lady appeared many times at night and even early in the morning, in an attitude of sacrifice and penance, at the same hours when Our Lord is most offended by the sins of men.”

    Toad takes this to mean that Our Lord is, very naturally, constantly offended by the sins of men (no mention of the sins of women, he notes) but, for some unspecified reason, is even more offended at certain times of day, than at others.

    Why should this be, Toad wonders?

    .

  14. Pastorious says:

    John de Herrera offers us a timely reminder that the stem cell era is here, with the ability to grow various organs. Is it beyond the bounds of possiblity that one day we might ‘grow’ a Pope who satisfied the needs of traditionalist and progressive alike?🙂

    Jerry wisely speaks of this very special decade when we flowered into a new era and the apparitions took place, the children displaying such “ecstasy” and “joy”.

  15. toadspittle says:

    .

    Be nice to die of joy, wouldn’t it?

  16. Jerry says:

    I’d rather die of ecstasy Toad.

  17. kathleen says:

    Jerry, sorry for the delay in answering your question about the name of the mountain range surrounding Garabandal. I believe it is the the Peña Sagra (that could be translated as ‘Holy Rocks’!) of Cantabria, Northern Spain, located about 600 meters above sea level.

    @ Pastorius
    What a lot of balderdash!😆

  18. lonnie says:

    any of the girls/women have facebook account?

  19. Habtom says:

    please notify me of any updates or anything devolvement. And thank you for everything God bless

  20. Peter Nuyens says:

    Peter says: Please look at the http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com as folow-up or fulfilment of Garabandal.

  21. johnkonnor72 says:

    >>>john konnor says….dont bother because garabandal is the work of the devil trying to get us to worry about chastisements and impending doom rather than to live a good virtuous life full of joy and tempered by the graces afforded through the sacraments…running backwards in a trance at incredible speed over rough terrain without ever bumping or falling would probably qualify as a characteristic of demonic influence more than anything else….among other strange occurances observed at garabandal….

  22. Brother Burrito says:

    I am troubled by some of the footage at Garabandal too. The strange synchronised marching just looks so undignified, and the sudden neck extension and kneeling look so violent!

    The Church has wisely neither approved or disapproved the apparitions there. She is biding her time as the alleged signs and miracles have to happen within Conchita’s lifetime. We’ll see.

  23. kathleen says:

    Yes, the Catholic Church has not endorsed the apparitions of Garabandal yet……. for the very reasons BB has pointed out. Conchita (now 63 or 64 years of age) would have to announce the coming miracle in advance, giving time for people to gather there to witness it, and nothing has been said so far.

    Nonetheless, the Church has said that nothing the girls have told of the messages the Blessed Virgin Mary supposedly gave them goes against anything in Church teaching. The messages are not only about chastisements and suchlike, but reiterate many of the things modern man seems to have forgotten: the need to pray more, make sacrifices, lead pure and holy lives, etc. A lot of the messages were about priests, how beloved and special they are, and the importance of their teaching the fullness of the Faith whilst leading exemplary lives as witnesses of Christ. The Holy Eucharist was also a big part of the messages of Garabandal.
    It is really very hard to imagine that the Devil could be the author of such good, holy and Catholic teachings!

    Another big difference with other unapproved apparition sites (e.g. Medjugorje) is the endorsement of many canonised saints of the Catholic Church, as mentioned above.
    Malachi Martin (whom we have been discussing recently) was very taken with the piety and humility of Conchita, who he met in the U.S., and he knew well that “by their fruits thou shalt know them”! He had a completely open mind about the Garabandal apparitions, whereas he condemned Medjurgorje.

  24. JabbaPapa says:

    It is really very hard to imagine that the Devil could be the author of such good, holy and Catholic teachings!

    http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/12/sister-magdalena-of-cross-nun-who-made.html

  25. JabbaPapa says:

    There is no-one as wise as the Devil in imitating holiness.

    I am very wary of the supernatural events at Garabandal.

  26. kathleen says:

    “There is no-one as wise as the Devil in imitating holiness

    Those are very unsettling words Jabba, and yet you might be right! We are warned time and again of the “wickedness and snares of the devil”.

    But do you know of any other site of supposed apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary where the “fruits” – meaning the lives of the seers and many others who have been drawn to amend their lives after visiting Garabandal, or reading about it – have been so changed for the better?
    The devil wants to lead souls to perdition…. not to Heaven!

    I cannot help feeling, as I said above, that it is surely doubtful that such great saints as Padre Pio and Mother Teresa of Calcutta…. and the lesser-known Blessed Madre Maravillas de Jesus, who all believed in the apparitions, could be so completely deceived, don’t you think?

    P.S. The story of the nun in the link you give Jabba (and that I have seen before) shows how Sr. Magdalena’s possession by the devil was revealed. The remaining three seers of Garabandal (now women in their sixties) all lead exemplary Christian lives, with no signs of any such ‘demonic’ influence. Mary Loli died a holy death a few years ago after a prolonged illness and much suffering that she bore with tremendous fortitude and patience, offering it all up for the conversion of sinners and for priests.

  27. Mark says:

    Why Conchita is never asked if the date she had on her mind over 50 years ago is still ahead of now ? She was told the date of the Miracle would be this far in time?

  28. kathleen says:

    Mark,
    As far as I know, Conchita keeps very quiet on everything to do with the Garabandal Apparitions these days, but the last time she did talk about them she reiterated their veracity.
    She leads a very simple, good and devoutly Catholic life – frequenting Holy Mass, praying the rosary daily and holding holy hours in her house for friends and neighbours (who I believe are quite unaware she was one of the ‘seers’ at Garabandal!)

  29. JabbaPapa says:

    Kathleen — I cannot help feeling, as I said above, that it is surely doubtful that such great saints as Padre Pio and Mother Teresa of Calcutta…. and the lesser-known Blessed Madre Maravillas de Jesus, who all believed in the apparitions, could be so completely deceived, don’t you think?

    I can hardly be the judge of that !!!

    I was simply offering a reminder that some supernatural events are works of the devil.

    Supernaturality is not proof of godliness nor holiness !!!

    On the other hand — Satan himself is an angelic being, albeit a fallen one, and he has angelic powers. What he lacks in comparison with the angels, and with the Faithful mortals, is Communion with the Holy Spirit, and sharing in holy love with God.

    When the devil acts supernaturally he cannot help but provide evidence of God, because his supernaturality is a gift from God in the first place — this means, however, that not even the holiness itself of the seers is sufficient cause to accept the Garabandal apparitions.

    Holiness for the wrong reasons remains holiness — in a similar way as an investment benefit on the basis of a mistake is still a benefit.

    There is nevertheless a worthwhile comparison to be made — the events at Lourdes and at Fatima are very hard to disagree with from any truly cohesive, orthodox Catholic point of view. Not so with Garabandal or Medjugorje.

    It would be absolutely devastating if Conchita had been told a sophisticated lie by Satan, and were then to renounce the Faith from believing it, but then nothing happening on the predicted date !!! How many could lose their Faith if such a thing were to happen ?

  30. kathleen says:

    Jabba,
    Yes, I do see your point….. and I quite agree with what you say in your last paragraph. That would indeed be a disaster! It is why the Church has made no declaration on the supposed apparitions at Garabandal, except to say that there is nothing in any of the ‘messages’ the girls have promulgated that goes against Catholic Doctrine and Teaching.
    (I believe some of the thousands of ‘messages’ to have apparently come out of Medjurgorje are very strange, and their orthodoxy is more than dubious.)

    Don’t you find the story of Fr. Luis Marie Andreu extraordinary though? I find it hard to see how the devil could fake the future Vision of a Miracle, and fool this holy Jesuit so greatly, that it should actually cause his death!!

    However, unless the foretold public Warning and Miracle take place within Conchita’s lifetime (and she is already in her sixties)….. which I suppose would be a sort of affirmation of the truthfulness of the girls’ statements, Garabandal will fade away in people’s minds, and soon be forgotten.

  31. johnhenrycn says:

    A fascinating story, Kathleen, and I, for one, take it seriously, which is not quite the same as accepting its veracity, although I hasten to add that I do not doubt the honesty of those young girls. Well, maybe I do harbour some slight doubts – teensy, weensy ones – seeing as two of them had gone up the hill with the intention of stealing fruit from their schoolmaster’s apple trees, and all four were enjoying those ill-gotten gains when Conchita first saw the angel.

    As for the fact that Conchita is in her sixties, I console myself with the thought that “60 is the new 40”. She might well be looking forward to another 40 years of life and health. In any case, if she truly is a prophetess, she is obliged to bide her time until the Holy Spirit commands otherwise; and indeed, she may not even know – yet – what the Great Miracle is. She has said that it will happen at 8:30 p.m. on a Thursday feast day of a martyr, and she will be allowed to reveal it eight days in advance. Catholic Kremlinology, à la Dan Brown, is distasteful to me; but I note that Pope Benedict will be going into retirement at 8:00 p.m. on Thursday 28 February, eight days before Thursday 7 March, the feast day of SS Perpetua and Felicity, who were martyred in Carthage on March 7th, 203 by being thrown to the beasts in the amphitheatre.

  32. Toad says:

    Wonderfully loony post and comments!

    CP&S at its finest and funniest!

    “…for friends and neighbours (who I believe are quite unaware she was one of the ‘seers’ at Garabandal!)”

    Am I alone in finding this a bit “unlikely?”
    Of course.

  33. JabbaPapa says:

    Toad — God is real, and the Christ’s teachings are for all of us, no matter our circumstances nor prejudice.

    Treating some aspects of these matters as if they were “wonderfully loony” simply illustrates your acceptance of the satanic lies in question … 😦

    The story of Garabandal is helping to lead you towards a haughty, arrogant, and presumptuous dismissal and abandonment of the holy truth of our Church — it is for this exact sort of reason that the apparitions of Garabandal are viewed with suspicion.

  34. Toad says:

    “The story of Garabandal is helping to lead you (Toad, that is) towards a haughty, arrogant, and presumptuous dismissal and abandonment of the holy truth of our Church..”

    No it isn’t, Jabba.
    And if it was, how could you know, anyway?
    Revelation?
    All I’m saying is that these “apparitions” should be approached with the greatest possible skepticism, and the Catholic Church appears to agree.

    Because, if we believe “…some aspects of these matters..” we’re – by your own reckoning – stuffed by Satan, and if we don’t believe “..some aspects of these matters..” we’re stuffed, presumably by God, although maybe by Satan, again. Either way.

    Though we have to wonder why the Mother of God always chooses to appear to unlettered, often sickly, pubescent peasant girls in rural backwaters – only to impart some vague and ambigious message like, “If the world doesn’t watch out, something very bad will happen soon.”
    And, of course, it always does.
    Always will, in fact.
    Toad could do that.

    And, is it blasphemy to suggest she ought to put the message over on telly, these days?
    Yes.
    Probably.

  35. JabbaPapa says:

    Though we have to wonder why the Mother of God always chooses to appear to unlettered, often sickly, pubescent peasant girls in rural backwaters – only to impart some vague and ambigious message like

    I am not a sickly, pubescent peasant girls in a rural backwater, nor did she impart any message at all.

  36. Toad says:

    Quite right, Jabba. “Often” is the word, rather than “Always.”
    Mustn’t be dogmatic must we?

  37. kathleen says:

    John Henry @ 18:28 yesterday

    Interesting observances JH. So perhaps we should keep an eye open to see what might happen on those coming dates then, eh?😉

    Toad,
    As Jabba has pointed out, boys/men are also sometimes the receivers of visions of Our Blessed Lady. There was also Francisco, one of the little shepherds at Fatima.
    The probable reason very young (and sometimes simple) people are chosen to receive visions with messages for Mankind, is precisely because they are less likely to have the guile to fake a Heavenly vision.

    Is it supernaturalism per se that you have difficulty with Toad? How would you explain this strange phenomena then?

  38. Toad says:

    “Is it supernaturalism per se that you have difficulty with Toad? How would you explain this strange phenomena then?”

    Yes, I think it is, Kathleen. Because I don’t believe in the supernatural.
    There are things we don’t yet understand, and there are some we may well never understand.
    But that doesn’t make them supernatural. Just incomprehensible.
    I may be wrong, of course.
    But what “strange phenomena” are you referring to here?
    If you mean, for example, Garabandal, or Medugorje (sorry Eccles!), or Fatima – I’d leave it to the great genius Lewis (Carroll, that is, not C.S.) to explain.

    In his inimitable way:

    He thought he saw an Argument
    That proved he was the Pope:
    He looked again, and found it was
    A Bar of Mottled Soap.
    ‘A fact so dread,’ he faintly said,
    ‘Extinguishes all hope!’

    In other words, people think they see things because they want to see them.

    Including any positive outcome of the current Pope quitting.
    (Did he self-defenestrate – or was he picked up and thrown out? Dan Brown will tell us soon! No doubt.)

  39. kathleen says:

    But what “strange phenomena” are you referring to here?

    Yes, I was referring to the happenings at Garabandal. I wanted to see if you believed them to be the work of the devil, as has been mentioned.

    “In other words, people think they see things because they want to see them.”

    Sometimes perhaps!
    Like Toad right now. In your disbelief of anything “supernatural”, you are seeing things as you want to see them.😉

  40. johnhenrycn says:

    Being intrigued by this story, I did some further investigation and came across a couple of other YouTubes about Garabandal here and here. If pressed for time, I suggest starting with the second link at the 10:55 mark, where there’s a transcript of the predictions made by the visionaries about The Great Warning; and although I certainly will not vouch for their truth (how could I?), they sound very Catholic to me.

  41. Roger says:

    Garabandal was photographed, televised, record, scientifically tested (even sand in the eyes of the seers) and its doubted! But then is it doubted or rather is it that this generation is entrenched in materialism that it cannot, rather will not accept the reality of non material and superior life. Heaven and Hell are realities. The Warning and the Great Miracle and yes but these are not the core of Garbandal. It is the messages that have been ignored, October 18 1961 (October the month of the Miracle of the Sun in Garbandal) “Many Sacrifices must be made. Much penance must be done. We must pay many visits to the Blessed Sacrament, but first of all we must be very good. If we do not do this, punishment awaits us. Already the cup is filling, and if we do not change we shall be punished.” Then in June 19th 1962 “..The Virgin told us a message for the whole world and it is this: The Virgin has said to us that we are not expecting the Chastisement; Because we are disregarding her first message by the way we live but without expecting punishment, it will come. Because the world has not changed and now, with this message she has said it twice and we do not heed her, because the world is worse and must change much but has not changed at all. ..” Then again 23rd June 1962 “”The Virgin has told us:
    The world continues the same…That it has not changed at all. FEW WILL SEE GOD. They are so few that it causes The Virgin much sorrow. What a pity that it does not change. The Virgin told us that the Chastisement is coming seeing that the world is not changing. The cup is filling up. How sad the Virgin was although She didn’t let us see it because She loves us so much and She suffers alone. She is so good! Be good everyone so that The Virgin will be happy. She told us that We who are good should pray for those who are bad. Let us pray to God for the world for those who do not know Him. Be good…be very good everyone” THEN THE AWFUL LAST MESSAGE JUNE 18TH 1965 “Since my message of October 18, 1961 has not been complied with and has not been made much known to the world, I will tell you that this is the last one. Before the chalice was filling now it is overflowing. Many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them. To the Eucharist, there is given less and less importance. We should avoid the wrath of God on us by our good efforts. If you ask pardon with your sincere soul God will pardon you. It is I, your mother, who through the intercession of St. Michael, wish to say that you amend, that you are already in the last warnings and that I love you much and do not want your condemnation. Ask Us sincerely and we will give to you. You should sacrifice more. Think of the passion of Jesus. ..” These messages of 50 years ago are NOT promulgated instead the attraction is to the sensational. The world is like Herod that wanted to be entertained by Our Lord by a miracle. Let the words of Our Lady sink into your hearts and minds, change OR a CHASTISEMENT from GOD! Has Man changed in these 50 years?

  42. kathleen says:

    Thank you John Henry and Roger for these last comments.

    Yes Roger, in light of the recent revelations from the Polish priest, of the undercover homosexual “gangs” who have wormed their way into the highest spheres in the Church, this last supposed warning of the Blessed Virgin, gains even greater relevance.
    Many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them.”
    It is still only a very small number of men, and the majority of good and holy priests cannot be tarred with the same filthy brush, but the damage and harm this small (and powerful) group have wrought on the Church and faithful is enormous, and very worrying.

    We are all aware of what Our Blessed Lord said about those who cause scandal to those “little ones who believe in Me”, aren’t we?

  43. Toad says:

    “She (The Virgin Mary) told us that We who are good should pray for those who are bad. Let us pray to God for the world for those who do not know Him. Be good…be very good everyone” “

    Toad admits he is possibly, occasionally, somewhat over-skeptical about matters of faith – particularly involving apparitions – but do not these words strike anyone else as coming straight from the mouth (and mind) of a young, uneducated, peasant girl, rather than from the Mother of God Who Knows All?

    Why, in fact, are the messages so utterly banal? It’s almost as if the recipients were making them up themselves, out of their limited knowledge and vocabulary.

    “If you are not good, something bad will happen.” Right.
    But Toad could have told you that.

    Is it worthwhile coming all the way down from Heaven to tell us this?.

  44. golden chersonnese says:

    Why, in fact, are the messages so utterly banal? It’s almost as if the recipients were making them up themselves, out of their limited knowledge and vocabulary.

    Golden recalls saying something like that more than 30 years ago to a “spiritualist” lady, but Golden was a bit more nuanced than Toad, even at that tender age.

    The spiritualist lady, not at all a Catholic, had conceived a very great interest in the Garabandal events, no doubt owing to her habitual “spiritualism”. She had set up a sort of “Garabandal chapter” in the city concerned and was its first “prioress”.

    With a group of other young Catholics, Golden was invited one Saturday after choir practice to her home, the chapter house, to view various bits of Garabandal-ware and listen to the lady’s disquisition on the unusual phenomenon.

    I recall asking her at the end how anything at all the girls said added to what we Catholics already knew and accepted. She seemed quite puzzled at the question and merely said “oh, so you mean it doesn’t?”.

    So, Toad, perhaps we are not to be surprised that (usually) no new teachings come from these apparitions, but only that such unusual things occur, as they obviously did at Garabandal.

  45. kathleen says:

    I believe any new teachings* would automatically demonstrate that the “apparitions” (if true) were not from God. No, Our Lady at Garabandal (and always following the four girls’ testimonies) simply reiterated the time-old teachings and doctrines of the Catholic Church that so many seemed to be forgetting. As a loving mother guides, teaches and remonstrates with her children, so does Our Blessed Mother in apparition sites that have been recognised by the Church….. Perhaps at Garabandal too? We shall see.

    *With the death of the last Apostle, all Revelation necessary for Man’s Salvation had already been given.

  46. JabbaPapa says:

    kathleen, the fact that the “teaching” part of the messages contains nothing different from the most standard sort of catechetics is actually an argument *against* recognising the apparitions.

    Apparitions that have been recognised do not contradict the Faith, but they *do* provide assistance to help actively engage with it, perhaps in new ways.

    An apparition that simply reiterated the teachings that already belonged to the Deposit would provide no particular reason for it to be officially recognised.

  47. Toad says:

    “So, Toad, perhaps we are not to be surprised that (usually) no new teachings come from these apparitions, but only that such unusual things occur, as they obviously did at Garabandal.”

    Toad has no problem at all agreeing that “unusual things” took place at Garabandel, and Lourdes and Fatima, Golden.
    Or else why would these events be remembered?

    “Unusual things” also happened in the USA on Sept 9th, 2001, and at Waterloo, Belgium on June 8th, 1815.
    In fact, it would not be unreasonable to suggest that “unusual things ” happen with unusual frequency.
    No arguing with that, surely?
    However, it raises the question of how many apparitions are necessary before they lose their “miracle” status, and become mundane, workaday, happenings, like say, earthquakes, or car crashes?

  48. Frere Rabit says:

    As someone who has a high regard for authentic Marian pilgrimage sites and regards the devotion to Our Lady as central to Catholic faith and practice, my attitude towards the authenticity of Garabandal is determined by the statements that the local bishoips have made. Their view has always been sceptical.

    On October 11, 1996 the new bishop, Jose Vilaplana, placed his prohibition on the alleged apparitions and said it was final:

    “Some people have been coming directly to the Diocese of Santander (Spain) asking about the alleged apparitions of Garabandal and especially for the answer about the position of the hierarchy of the Church concerning these apparitions.

    I need to communicate that:

    1. All the bishops of the diocese since 1961 through 1970 agreed that there was no supernatural validity for the apparitions.
    2. In the month of December of 1977 Bishop Dal Val of Santander, in union with his predecessors, stated that in the six years of being bishop of Santander there were no new phenomena.
    3. The same bishop, Dal Val, let a few years go by to allow the confusion or fanaticism to settle down, and then he initiated a commission to examine the apparitions in more depth. The conclusion of the commission agreed with the findings of the previous bishops. That there was no supernatural validity to such apparitions.
    4. At the time of the conclusions of the study, in 1991, I was installed bishop in the diocese. So during my visit to Rome, as limina visit which happened in the same year, I presented to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith the study and I asked for pastoral direction concerning this case.
    5. On Nov. 28, 1992, the Congregation sent me an answer saying that after examining the documentation, there was no need for direct intervention (by the Vatican) to take away the jurisdiction of the ordinary bishop of Santander in this case. Such a right belongs to the ordinary. Previous declarations of the Holy See agree in this finding. In the same letter they suggested that if I find it necessary to publish a declaration, that I reconfirm that there was no supernatural validity in the alleged apparitions, and this will make a unanimous position with my predecessors.
    6. Given that the declarations of my predecessors who studied the case have been clear and unanimous, I don’t find it necessary to have a new public declaration that would raise notoriety about something which happened so long ago. However, I find it necessary to rewrite this report as a direct answer to the people who ask for direction concerning this question, which is now final: I agree with [and] I accept the decision of my predecessors and the direction of the Holy See.
    7. In reference to the Eucharistic celebration in Garabandal, following the decision of my predecessors, I ruled that Masses can be celebrated only in the parish church and there will be no references to the alleged apparitions and visiting priests who want to say Mass must have approval from the pastor, who has my authorization. It’s my wish that this information is helpful to you.

    My regards in Christ,
    Jose Vilaplana
    Bishop of Santander

  49. Toad says:

    Very interesting indeed, Rabit.
    It’s not Toad’s place to ask this question, not by a long chalk, but he will anyway:

    “What on earth constitutes “Supernatural Validity”?

    How can anyone this side of Purgatory, ever validate supernatural – that is to say metaphysical – events?

    (Bishop Vilapanda states his position remarkably clearly and straightforwardly, almost brutally, for a Man of the Cloth. Or so I might suggest.)

  50. JabbaPapa says:

    How can anyone this side of Purgatory, ever validate supernatural – that is to say metaphysical – events?

    The Holy Spirit, Toad — you’re being materialistic again ; which is bizarre, given that the topic is inherently metaphysical.

  51. Toad says:

    I suppose what I’m asking is what does The Holy Spirit actually do to validate such an event? And how do we know he’s done it?

  52. JabbaPapa says:

    “How” is a question that cannot be answered for supernatural events, not with material explanations anyway.

    By definition — supernatural events have no natural explanations.

    The Soul can sense the presence of the Spirit and its actions in various incommunicable, and quite variable, fashions.

    I’m told that most can only sense the workings of the Spirit in hindsight.

    Sorry — I actually do not have anything even *vaguely* resembling a comprehensive answer to your question.

  53. johnkonnor72 says:

    ..actually what the Holy Spirit does is guide the church…as Jesus says he has sent the paraclete to guide his church..that is why we always need to wait for the validation of the experts who study ..the three sources of or spirts of such penomenon..the spirit of man (which usually does things for material gain or exposure) the spirit of the devil(which usually is motivated by a hatred of all things Holy and so attempts to sow discord inside the church) the spirit of God (which is motivated by truth and charity)..however the holy spirit will guide the church through the apostolic see in this case the bishop who is the vatican representative to make a prudent judgement…the Holy spirit will convince the bishop that is how he validates an apparition..its the bishops job to quell an apparition and if there is obedience to his decree that is probably the first sign if there is a miracle asked for by the bishop then the apparition will deliver it… as mr pappa said there are so many variables and subtleties that it can be very difficult to provide a black and white answer…

  54. kathleen says:

    Jabba @ 9:18 yesterday.

    “Apparitions that have been recognised do not contradict the Faith, but they *do* provide assistance to help actively engage with it, perhaps in new ways.”

    In light of the recent revelations of infiltration of a powerful network of homophile elements in the highest spheres of the Church (the “smoke of Satan” Pope Paul VI talked of?), I would say that the words I mentioned above: “Many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them”, that Our Blessed Lady apparently spoke to the four innocent girls, could be seen to be precisely those of “assistance”, or as a warning, to the Church worldwide…… and especially to the clergy!

    Anyone old enough to remember can probably tell us whether such sins in the Church were known and talked about during the period of the Garabandal phenomena, the sixties,…. but I don’t think they were. If Our Lady did truly appear to these four girls at this time, her messages that were mainly aimed at transmitting the urgent need to pray incessantly for priests (and of the dire consequences that would follow for those priests who abuse their sacred ministry) would appear to be wholly appropriate and visionary.

    And re: the bishop’s statement that Rabit has given above, I do not think it is surprising.
    Good bishops and priests who have no knowledge of any such “crimes” being committed among their ranks, would surely find the above ‘supposed’ words of the Blessed Virgin not only outrageous, but also deeply disquieting.

    The bishop’s statement does not give any explanation though for the clearly strange phenomena that obviously did take place at Garabandal.
    Yet of course, at this stage, (i.e. before any of the prophesies of the Warning and Miracle have come true) they quite naturally could not say whether the unusual happenings that took place during those years, and the girls’ ecstatic and strange behaviour, was a result of heavenly or of ‘other’ provenance.

  55. golden chersonnese says:

    Kathleen, do you know of this gentleman of Santander, Enrique Alvarez? He seems to be suggesting that the Garabandal events have been disparaged by churchmen merely because of <a href="their modernism since the 60s and 70s. I have to confess I find that quite appealing, at least as one explanation for this episcopal dubiety, if toads are indeed any indication of such things.

    The local episcopal attitude towards Garabandal also appears to have mellowed since Frere Rabit’s bishop was transferred and replaced in 2007, the second year of the Benedictine pontificate.

  56. Toad says:

    “Many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them..”

    As you point out yourself, Kathleen, this was half a century ago. Note the tense the Virgin is said to use. She’s plainly not talking about the far-distant millennium.

    Toad would bet that every one of the cardinals and bishops of the early 60’s are dead at least 25 years now, and very probably all of the priests.
    And most of today’s supposed satanic offenders were barely out of the seminary, if even that. Probably still in short chasubles.
    It might also be worth noting that Garabandal was pre The Dreaded Vat ll. Of which, it would seem, there was nothing worth mentioning.
    Even obliquely.
    But as with the Bible and – for all I know – the Koran, we can read whatever we like into these things. And we generally do.

  57. JabbaPapa says:

    It might also be worth noting that Garabandal was pre The Dreaded Vat ll.

    Virtually simultaneous, actually …

  58. golden chersonnese says:

    Correction: Frere Rabit’s bishop of Santander was transferred in 2006. The metropolitan of Oviedo in the Principality of Asturias (also apparently quite mellow towards the Garabandal believers) administered the vacant diocese for a year, before the new and current bishop was installed in 2007.

  59. Toad says:

    “Virtually simultaneous?”

    How many month’s difference?
    More importantly, which came first? (At least, it seems important to Toad. Not very, though, to be sure.)

  60. JabbaPapa says:

    Toad, really !!! It would be quicker for you to Google this stuff yourself than requesting these simple facts in here, wouldn’t it ?

    Vatican II October 1962 – December 1965

    Garabandal October 1961 – June 1965

  61. Frere Rabit says:

    Here is the original bishop’s letter: http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/GarabandalDocs.html

    The events at Garabandal do not conform to the events that accompany the presence of Mary in genuine Marian apparitions. In fact, the weird effects that engulfed this village bore all the signs of demonic influence, and that is why opinion has always been divided on this matter. Unlike Medjugorje, which has been exposed as a scam and its credibility is now zero, the controversy still continues around Garabandal. My view is that of the local bishops, who were sceptical just as the bishop of Mostar was sceptical about Medjugorje.

    It is for the Church to judge the authenticity of private revelation and in the case of Garabandal the enthusiasts have always been disappointed to discover that the hierarchy of the Church remains alarmed and cautious. Many say that the spiritual manifestations seem oddly consistent with demonic visitation.

  62. Toad says:

    Apologies, Jabba, just another deplorable case of Toadite bone idleness, a little-known medical condition, apparently incurable in his case.

    But, I think the point is made. (Whatever it was.)
    An entire year.
    We should have been warned!
    (Unless, of course, it really was the Devil’s work!).

  63. Frere Rabit says:

    The bishop’s letter uses the phrase, “no consta la sobrenaturalidad de las referidas apariciones”; i.e., “It is not certain that the aparitions are of supernatural origin.”

    As such it is a quite recognised phrase in assessing such events, which fall into three recognised categories as far as the Church is concerned, when assessing apparitions. Either the supernatural origin is dismissed, has not been established, or is positively recognised.

    Like the scam at Medjugorje, the problem is that large numbers of the faithful have invested their genuine faith in the well-publicised events at Garabandal and the Church is lumbered with the awkward job of discerning the spiritual truth, weighing up the local politics (sadly), and trying not to disillusion too many people with a pronouncement that is too disappointing. Even in the scandalous case of Medjurgorje the CDF has sadly pulled its punches, and that has been the biggest scam in the entire history of Mariology.

  64. Toad says:

    “It is not certain that the apparitions are of supernatural origin.”

    ..so they might be apparitons of natural origin.
    Curioser and curioser.

  65. Frere Rabit says:

    Well, it hasn’t yet been established that Toad’s apparitions are entirely natural, but be thankful you have not yet attracted the attention of equivocal bishops.

  66. johnkonnor72 says:

    ….Garabandal and Medjugorje are the devils diversion tactics,,he uses these spurious apparitions to get the faithful thinking about impending calamities ..fantasy religion ..anything to lead us away from the contemlation of practical truth…similar to toad’s incessant query…curiouser and curiouser indeed..although toad’s query certainly and indirectly may lure one into the search for truth I suppose God’s way of writing straight witha crooked quill I suppose…

  67. Toad says:

    What is apparent is that these “apparitions” should all be regarded with the utmost scepticism, until further notice. What, or whenever, that might be.
    Right now, it appears clear (to Toad at least) that idle speculation regarding these “events” is likely to do more harm than good, and only reinforce the larger world’s negative prejudices about Catholicism and superstition.
    (Pompous old humbug, Toad.)
    ….Prejudices which, by the way, are currently not being given much of a positive spin by the case of Cardinal O’Brien, the UK’s Number One Catholic.
    Regarding whom, on CP&S, an ominous silence also currently prevails.
    (Though, to be sure, it’s hard to know what to say.)

  68. golden chersonnese says:

    only reinforce the larger world’s negative prejudices about Catholicism and superstition

    The larger world, Toad? Surely you mean the relatively small world of Western rational materialism, which is not even nearly accepted by everyone in the West, including some scientists.

    In the “larger world” (Asia, Africa etc), Toad, such things as these are usually regarded usually with interest (or, if not, something stronger).

  69. kathleen says:

    Golden, thank you for that interesting link (the interview with Enrique Alvarez) that I hadn’t seen before. He makes a good point that in the late 60’s, and during the 70’s, all talk of Marian apparitions was anathema. Modernism had truly sunk into most people’s mindset during those immediate years of the aftermath of Vatican II, sadly, so that much of the former piety of Catholic practice was being discarded.
    That does not mean to say that the bishop was wrong to be cautious in his statement (the one Rabit quotes above), only that no one in the Church seemed to want to encourage anything to do with Marian devotions during this period. Fortunately this has been changing back ever since Blessed John Paul II became Pope.

    Whereas I do agree that one should be wary and not jump to conclusions until the Church pronounces definitively on places where the Blessed Virgin is said to have appeared, there are dividing opinions within the Church at this moment. Caution must be paramount, and an open mind towards the validity of the apparitions is vital in this case of Garabandal. This will avoid any unnecessary embarrassment or disappointed for either group of believers or disbelievers in these apparitions. (Jabba made a very valid point about this above, when he asked what would happen were Conchita to announce the coming Miracle Our Lady supposedly talked about, then this not occurring, and Conchita subsequently losing her Faith. Unlikely, but always possible. This would doubtlessly lead to a disastrous falling away of numerous souls.)

    However, I do honestly believe that there are big differences between Garabandal and Medjugorje. In Garabandal the four ‘seers’ constantly stipulated blind obedience to Church authorities. In Medjurgorje I believe this was not the case.

  70. Toad says:

    “larger world, Toad? Surely you mean the relatively small world of Western rational materialism….?”

    Yes, Golden, I believe I did have that particular gang of loopies in mind – along with Islam, Protestantism, Hinduism, Calvinism, Buddhism, Voodooism, Neo-Paganism, Hypnotism, general Agnostico-Atheism and Sartrean Existentialism loopyism, to name but a few.

    But yes, you are right – it is indeed very foolish – downright loopy in fact – of Toad to suggest such an idea, because what all this legion of loopies is in effect saying is; “Catholicism? No thanks; A bit to too Catholic, too superstitious, for my taste.” And a very similar charge can be levelled at each and any of them.

    To put it in a nutshell (where all this clearly belongs) it takes all sorts, dunnit?.

  71. golden chersonnese says:

    The cheek!

  72. johnkonnor72 says:

    ….The devil is nothing more than a personnel rep for disneyland of the spirit…he loves it when people travel great distances and pay a lot of money to walk on alleged holy soil…money which could be given to the poor…if we concentrate on making a heaven in our hearts and carry it with us wherever we go we need pay no heed to any apparitions.. When we carry God with us we walk on Holy ground since we evince the mysteries of God’s love the eternal birth through the passion that is our individual way of the cross we become conduits catalysts for the workings of grace ….the actual secret of garabandal is in fact no secret at all..God has revealed himself through Jesus…indeed fatima has helped us understand the implications of the evils of communism…it reminds me of Lazarus and dives…. God has sent us the prophets however we did not listen…this rash of marian apparitionitis is indeed making the church catholic look a bit carivan n carnivalish…pilgrimage is good it fortifies the faith but watching the sky with jaws agaping hoping to gabble up a secret is bad for the soul…I don’t expect u to publish this…I am just bored n rambling… 🙂

  73. Toad says:

    Then you should get more bored more, and ramble more JohnK, thinks Toad, as he – albeit from an entirely different perspective – wholeheartedly agrees.

    It seems to me that people believe in God because they believe in Lourdes, and all that sort of thing.
    Whereas it should surely be contrairiwise?
    But what do I know? I’m only a toad.

    “Cheek,” Golden? How? Why? What? When? Wherefore?*

    * Big Unamuno word.

  74. kathleen says:

    It seems to me that people believe in God because they believe in Lourdes, and all that sort of thing.”

    That is rubbish Toad! Or it should be. One does not even have to believe Our Lady appeared to the children at Fatima, or St. Bernadette at Lourdes, to be a true Catholic.
    The only beliefs required of a Catholic are those contained in the Nicene Creed, and explained in further detail in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

  75. Toad says:

    Any point in asking Cardinal O’Brien what he thinks of Garabandal?
    No?
    No. Thought not.

  76. johnhenrycn says:

    So, what’s new on the Fátima front? The secrets were revealed on Friday 13 July 1917. The Miracle of the Sun occurred on 13 October 1917. The third secret has not may not have been fully disclosed. Mother Angelica doesn’t think so. The 100th anniversary of the Miracle will fall on a Friday the 13th. Numerology is not a hobby of mine, but here’s an interesting article: <a href="http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?print=1&did=0413-martin"<An Epic In Search Of An Ending, about the unanswered mysteries of that fate-filled year. Will Pope Francis be the ‘Bishop of Rome’ (the title he prefers) who finally and unequivocally consecrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and what blessings will be showered upon us if he does so? And what connection is there between Fátima and Garabandal?

  77. johnhenrycn says:

    http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?print=1&did=0413-martin
    As far as I know, that article is meant to be available to subscribers (me) and non-subscribers alike.

  78. johnhenrycn says:

    Has anyone seen this movie or read this book, both about Fátima? I haven’t, but would be interested in reading the comments of those who have.

  79. kathleen says:

    I have just read that absolutely fascinating article you link to JH, and I learnt quite a bit about the ancient history of Fatima. I highly recommend everyone who loves the Holy Catholic Church and recognises the importance of the Miracle and ‘Secrets’ of Fatima to read this article.

    It appears we still await a complete Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart in the manner the Virgin Mary requested.

    Yes, I agree with the author and Mother Angelica’s opinion: the Third Secret does not seem to have been revealed in its entirety yet. Why?
    Others might also remember hearing how the Holy Father turned pale when he read the ‘Secret’ written out in full by Sr. Lucia, and knowing this to be an event that would occur in the future, placed in the Vatican archives saying that this was not an appropriate time for its revelation.

    For many of us who believe in Our Lady’s apparitions to the four girls at Garabanda, everything that she supposedly told them too, warning and pleading with them to listen, concurs absolutely with the fully recognised apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Fatima.

    What does Heaven have to do to shake us out of our stupor without actually interfering with our God-given Free Will?

  80. Roger says:

    Kathleen
    Just found this. In 1975 I attended Joey’s lecture on Garbandal in London at the Carmelite Church. I had know of Garbandal since 1970. As a child we lived in a house that was haunted and very unpleasant this was to! I was aware of Supernatural that was unpleasant and frightening.
    At the end of Joey’s lecture we were blessed by Crucifixes.
    There were two queues one for Joey and one for his helper. I was at the end of the queue of his helper. When the Crucifix touched my forhead it was like an explosion that went through my brain followed by a flood of perfume. I actually took the crucifix and tried to smell it!
    Let nobody fool you there is a Hell and there is a Heaven and Our lady is the Queen of Heaven.
    Father Malachy Martin was speaking in 1998 ( I would recommend his later radio talks).
    What he was saying was his private opinion and also without being specific elements from the third secret (he was known to have read the third secret).
    He spoke of it being a dire document! He also spoke of world system collapsing! He spoke of a corrupt Institution! Of the Loss of Grace.
    Garbandal was expressly approved by Padre Pio (Joey and Conchita confirm this).
    I believe the re igniting of the desire for War as a solution to Peace is the start of period of Purification. The banking and economic collapse that started in 2007 is just such a global system collapse. The cleansing of the Vineyard is the necessary purging of the Church.

  81. Roger says:

    I note another entry worth looking at
    http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=0413-kainz

    Considerable research has been done on Fatima and the Consecration of Russia hasn’t actually been done.
    “..The late theologian and physicist Fr. Stanley L. Jaki also agreed. He traveled to Portugal to undertake a thorough scientific investigation of eyewitness accounts and depositions regarding the “miracle of the sun,” resulting in a massively researched book, God and the Sun at Fatima (1999). He concludes that Fatima is arguably the most important event of the twentieth century, a providential sign for an era that was to witness so many incredible acts of inhumanity and immorality ..”
    “..Martin summarizes some of the detective-like sleuthing carried out by Fr. Nicholas Gruner and his associates at the Fatima Center, who are concerned that Catholics, and the Vatican in particular, have fallen far short of fulfilling Our Lady’s requests. One glaring fault, in their opinion, is the alleged truncating of the third secret when the contents of the revelations were revealed by Pope John Paul II on June 26, 2000, and the omission of a veritable “fourth secret” that was supposedly withheld from the public. As Martin mentions, Fr. Gruner and his cohort believe that “the third secret spoke of apocalyptic horrors and high-level apostasy in Rome itself.” So they have concluded that it was in the interest of the Roman hierarchy to keep this part of the secret out of publication. It was, says Martin, “not exactly the kind of thing one wants spicing up the conversation.”

    Another, perhaps even more glaring fault, they allege, is the failure of John Paul II, after soliciting the cooperation of the bishops of the world to make the requested consecration on March 25, 1984, to use the correct wording. The Pope did not mention Russia by name, but only in a diplomatic circumlocution that would be understood by the participating bishops and those familiar with the Fatima message, but would not arouse the ire of the belligerent U.S.S.R. The Pope presumably wished to avoid contributing to heightened persecution and martyrdom of Catholics behind the Iron Curtain at that time, especially in his native Poland, where the Solidarity movement was being threatened with destruction by Soviet forces. ..”

    Now Father Malachy Martins later radio interviews in the late 1990’s are revealing of the institution of the Church. He also specific said that the content of the third secret was dire! unpleasant reading with several chastisments a breakdown of the global system. He also revealed that the papacy had been undermined and down valued since 1960. He spoke of the loss of Grace and an institution that was far from perfect.

    Garabandal follows 1960 and the public warnings are critical to say the least.

    2000 years ago the Temple opposed Our Lord the rational was the Roman Occupation and law and Order etc.. Herod the sartrap ruler. The Politics of the time were used as the rational for the execution of Our Lord. But the death by the Cross of the Messiah fulfilled old prophecy’s. We should see in Fatima a similar rational at work.

    Globalisation and Free market, Communications travel etc.. Have made the smaller and at the same time very interdependent what happens to our neighbours directly impacts on Us. So world systems are something which are a distinct feature of the modern world.

    The world financial system is broken and the economic consequences of this are global. The tourist economies are suffering because surplus monies (for holidays, charity) has been taken out of the economies to prop up social spending. At the same time Wars for regime change have become part of our daily life. The Church has rocked by moral scandals and vocations in serious decline.What cannot be denied is the serious decline in Faith , the secularisation of what once was Christendom and the destruction of Christian morality.

    Are we seeing the Fatima message reaching its summation?

  82. kathleen says:

    Roger,

    Your last two comments arrived when I was off on the Chartres pilgrimage, and I have only just seen them now! Sorry for the tardy reply.

    Are we seeing the Fatima message reaching its summation?

    It seems you think we are defintely entering that phase now, and you might well be right. But I think it is wiser to not speculate too much, and leave this up to the Church authorities to decide. However, given the state of the Church in the West today, with so much betrayal of the Sacred Faith by many Catholics, or should-be Catholics, it is imperative that all of us who love their Faith should double our efforts to pray, make sacrifices and be faithful to the Magisterium. We should not let our own failings and limitations depress or deter us in doing our best to be true Christian witnesses amongst so much secularism and evil.

    Many of the messages allegedly given to the girls at Garabandal are along the same lines as those given to the little seers of Fatima, although more emphasis on the crisis within the clergy (“many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them“) was given at Garabandal.
    Sadly, with the latest scandals in the Vatican that have come to light, so much of this we are now seeing for ourselves!

  83. Roger says:

    Hi Kathleen
    The problem that surfaced in 2007 was the size of the Global Debt and how much Fiat monies had been created with nothing behind those Debts. The effect is as devastating on economies as any War in as much as it has channelled public money away from services into attempting to repair this deficit.
    The Debt has undermined the value of the Democracy in as much as governments have been imposing unpopular economic and fiscal policies (because of the Debt).
    The picture is similar to that of the Great Depression but this is far far worse. It means that there is less surplus money for Charity (and the Church is a Charity!).
    The attack on the Faith from modern science (and so much of this is opinion rather than fact!) has generated a generation that doesn’t know the Faith or just considers it a medival relic!
    Its looking at the size and scope of the problem and seeing that exposure to Christianity has been marginalised.
    I do not doubt the Faith but I realise that the Triumph can only come through the Cross. The Cross has no appeal to this generation because it looks like failure! Our Lord looked a complete failure, rejected scorned and reviled! The Church is destined to live this Failure (think of that picture of the Fatima painted in 2000).
    The world with its utter rejection of Christ and its insistence on human morality based on reason is on a collision course with Heaven.

  84. Roger says:

    The point about Garabandal is the level of scientific tests and records and analysis. Mystical phenomenon etc. etc. It would be foolish to deny after 50 years actually the delay isn’t a Ecclesiaistical approval its because its unfinished.
    But lets understand Free Will and what it means and doesn’t mean. There is a balance permitted by God between Evil and Good. If this wasn’t the case there would be no value to Free Will. If Heaven intervenes especially with a Public miracle then The Devil is also permitted to raise His level of Temptation. To understand this is to see and appreciate Loudres and Fatima. Remember what Our Lord said to St Peter about Satan sifting Peter? Well the permission given to Satan to try to destroy the Church in the 20th Century had to be matched by Heaven to preserve Free Will.
    The point is that we are always better living by Faith because we merit more! Now Gods intervention at Garbandal WILL MEAN that Satan will be permitted to raise His game in other words things will get worse!!
    Since 9/11 the West has become used to an has accepted War! The Middle East is a powder keg and we have a Global Depression with Austerity. A generation without Jobs and benefits being cut (the effect of the Debt) . Mix into this a decline in Vocations and the sex scandals and rejection of the moral Authority of the Church.
    It is this broad but global scenario that presents itself. Now Fatima according to the late Malachy Martin was dire with a breakdown in Global systems? (that is Man) the present crisis continues and is far from being resolved and it is for this reason that I believe we have entered this Fatima period,

  85. Toad says:

    “Since 9/11 the West has become used to, and has accepted War!”

    Are you suggesting it didn’t before, Roger? The West – in fact the world – has been used to war as long as it has existed. Not much evidence of rejection, either.

    “If Heaven intervenes especially with a Public miracle then The Devil is also permitted to raise His level of Temptation.”
    You make it sound like a game of ping-pong.

  86. Roger says:

    Toad I welcome your comments. It isn’t a game sadly because its about eternity. The mystery if Iniquity. If you look closely at the Life of Our Lord and especially the seven days of Holy week you find Genesis re enacted. The appetite for War has accelerated since 9/11 and as was seen with the two previous World Wars (bye the way this is a World War because the War against Terrorism is being fought Globally!) tactics and sophistication of weaponry is growing and changing.
    Drones for instance BUT this is clearly the tip of the iceberg.
    For the recod Our Lord came at a time when there was War!! Check this out its true He is the Prince of Peace. He came at a time of Peace within the then Roman Empire.
    The Bible is replete with Satan talking to God and being given permissions. Look at Job for instance and Our Lords dealings with Judas. Our Lord told Peter that Satan had asked to sift Peter! Few realise that Darkness has its time BUT this is because of Mans choices. Satan is permitted to possess and own those who Have chosen Him. This is of course Just because of Free Will. Man judges himself Toad. Man chooses Hell himself rather than face God , this to was the Case with Adam and Eve .
    Satan is a condemned Fallen Angel but he retains His intelligence.
    The folly of Man today is the same as those who wanted to see whether the Crucified would save himself? But the Wisdom of Our Lord is folly to Man! This is so evident today.
    The Devil has rights are because of the Free Will choices of Men.
    The question to ask today is are we living in a General Global Apostacy? That is the question and a generation has been brought up in Old Christendom that hasn’t been Baptised and are therefor under the authority of Satan. The West has ignored Grace and opened the door to Satan trying to reverse the Passion. But because of the Passion that Old World pre redeemer has Ended so Mans State today in rejecting Christ is Worse than it was before.
    Garabandal and the Illumination Of Consciences will reveal the reality that Man is both Flesh and Spirit. Actually Garabandal . Fatima and Loudres have already proven this,
    Today with the stripping away of the Social Service budgets civil protests will escalate so the Global Debt has led to social breakdown between the Governments and the electorate at the same time as advances in the weapons of War.
    I hope you enjoyed this weeks New scientist with its explaination of the complexity of the weather and organic matter! How the weather is effected through greed and the profit motive.

  87. Toad says:

    “I hope you enjoyed this weeks New Scientist with its explanation of the complexity of the weather and organic matter! How the weather is affected through greed and the profit motive.”

    Comforting to learn that Toad is APPROVED BY ROGER
    I have not read the article, and probably won’t, unless it goes online, but the assertion, that greed and profit play a significant part in climate change, fails to amaze me.
    Because they play a significant part in everything else. Always have done, actually.
    Even and often, alas, in the workings of religious organisations.
    As I know you will agree.
    I also agree that future prospects for mankind do not look rosy.
    But I also know, from past experience, that they never do: Viz Burro’s “When The Wind Blows” movie.

    “The attack on the Faith from modern science (and so much of this is opinion rather than fact!) has generated a generation that doesn’t know the Faith or just considers it a medival relic!”
    That is your opinion, anyway, Roger. “Science” actually attacks nothing.
    It is a process, not a creature. It doesn’t attack, or defend, or eat or smoke, or carry a gun. It is neither good nor evil. Its outcomes can only be interpreted in such ways.

    But more interesting (to Toad) is your assertion that the Church is seen as a “medieval relic.” Well of course it is – because that’s how it presents itself, with its practitioners wearing medieval clothes in (generally) mock medieval churches, and conducting services in mock medieval language. That is the perception, at least.
    Looking “medieval”is not necessarily a bad thing, might even be a good one, but you can hardly blame people for getting the impression. that it really is medieval. Because it looks that way.
    In fact it’s, in part, what Vat ll was about,
    I think we’d all agree on CP&S.

  88. Roger says:

    Instead of a critic of Garbandal and Fatima better by far to look at the changes since over the 100 years or so since the start of the World War One. Changes which are deliberately against the morality of natural Law and the Faith.
    Divorce , Abortion, Debt (Keynes is about spending out of a crisis), permissiveness,politics narrowing into capitalism and socialism, separation of state and church, homosexuality and now gay marriage, regime change. Realise that these will never be withdrawn!!! That these progressive and planned changes will never be taken back.
    The world has been highjacked by Anti Christian Laws and a Law which is against the natural Law is a tyranny and Laws against Christ in once Christian Countries are choosing Anti Christ (opposite).
    Now prayer and penance also requires a public stance for the Faith. Nothing can withstand Christs Love and Empires and regimes that stand against him are brought down. Learn the truth of Holy week the Jews and their hiearchy brought the Dispora down on themselves. Rome was conquered by Christ. Open your eyes to how Gods Folly , the Folly of the Cross is the destruction of Satans Empire.
    It is no different today, Self is our enemy.
    Humble yourself and armed with the Rosary (includes the Cross!) and the scapular Anti Christs modern Global Empire will Fall.
    All that is preventing the Triumph Of Our Lady is Faith! Living Faith that stands against the false wisdom of this world. Better we do this than God intervenes!!!

  89. Toad says:

    The new star ratings are very nice and decorative , A plus, I think.

    “..the Jews and their hierarchy brought the Diaspora down on themselves.”

    …As Young Toad was often told by the priests at his school.
    That’s why it’s all right to be nasty to them. Or used to be. Different now, of course.

    “Better we do this than God intervenes!!!”

    God’s intervention is not going to be very nice then, is it Roger? Nasty, in fact. Horrible, most like.
    Serves us all right, no doubt.
    But rather difficult to reconcile this with His infinite love for us benighted fools, who know not what we do,
    Or so it would appear. (To Toad)

    WHO WAITS (as is customary) HOPEFULLY FOR APPROVAL

  90. Roger says:

    Toad
    God Love isn’t to be confused with fickle human Love that has Self interest mixed within it.
    Get back to Man and Free Will. The Jews chose to kill the Messiah. Souls choose themselves Heaven or Hell they choose and that is what happened in Jerusalem. Not all because a very small number remained with the Crucified. The Dispora was a matter of choice Toad. In England a generation under Henry VIII chose the Crown over the Pope.
    This is the danger facing the West today it knows it is going against the Natural Laws and those of Christ. The Governments know what they are doing but Anti Christ is a creature of Hatred as Our Lord is of Love. All Anti Christ wants is Souls for every taken from God.
    Toad Man will blame God unfortunately this is what will happen. Its already happening because Science is in denial of God.
    The Law of prayer and penance is a consequence of Original Sin which is why Our Lord was Crucified and why the Perpetual Sacrifice (at the moment of the priests celebrants Communion) was left with man. But if the prayer and penance is reduced or becomes non existent then it is the Laws built into Nature that Act against Man.
    Garabandal, Fatima, Lourdes Prayer and penance!
    Incidently we must NOT be nasty to anybody!! We must see Our Lord in Our neighbour! Away with a false zeal that sees the error in Our neighbours eye and ignores the Blindness in Our own.
    It matters Not whether Muslim, Jew, Head Hunter we are to Love Our neighbour.
    But we must always defend God and He is Love

  91. kathleen says:

    Hi Roger,

    A great comment, except for these words: “The Jews chose to kill the Messiah.”

    We have to be careful here. Some Jews wanted the death of Jesus, yes, and did not recognise Him as their ‘Messiah’. (How much blame they have for that, we do not know.)
    All the first thousands of followers of Jesus were Jews who did recognise Him as the Messiah. Jesus Himself, His Blessed Mother, the Apostles, including St. Peter, the first Pope, and many converts down through the centuries who have embraced the Faith, have been Jews. It is thanks to these Jews that the Glorious Faith has been handed down to us. So how can Jews, as a race, be blamed for the death of Jesus?
    It was the Romans anyway who did the dirty work of crucifying Our Blessed Lord.

    The real culprit of the Crucifixion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ is Mankind as a whole. Our sins led to Our Saviour coming to suffer and die for us.

  92. Roger says:

    My apologise Kathleen. The Faith was spread by the Jews and we must recognise that the Bible came from these who were at variance with those who remained within the Mosaic tradition.
    So what happened in Jerusalem well the better view is to look at the judgement of a soul. That soul either goes to or runs away from God.
    Sic Judas John 13
    [27] And after the morsel, Satan entered into him. And Jesus said to him: That which thou dost, do quickly.

    [30] He therefore having received the morsel, went out immediately. And it was night.

    Notice Satan possessed Judas! and that extrodinary observation “And it was night!!”
    Extrodinary because John 1
    [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
    [5] And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    Darkness Genesis 1
    [4] And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness.

    Matthew 25
    [30] And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Finally look at the Passion and the DARKNESS that came over Golgotha
    You see Jerusalem chose the destruction of Life Light! and therefor inherited Darkness . In other words did what Judas did and brought darkness at midday down upon themselves, The same is happening now man in his Free Will has chosen darkness and this is Satans Domain. Jerusalem chose the Darkness over the Light.

    Now today globally this choice is being made rejecting Christ and turning away from him BUT this means choosing Darkness (Satan) , Henry VIII chose Darkness.

    Garbandal and the Anathema on Adam and Eve
    “..We must make many sacrifices, perform much penance, and visit the Blessed Sacrament frequently. But first, we must lead good lives. If we do not, a chastisement will befall us. The cup is already filling up, if we do not change, a very great chastisement will come upon us…”
    The Cross is placed on this Fallen World and Man is placed under Gods Anathema to do penance. But what happens if Adam refuses? What happens if there is No prayer and penance? Well this is a Fallen world with Laws that if ignored come back to chastise Us. Just like the wayward School Boy.
    Man is deliberately ignoring the Creator and the imperative for performing penance! so inevitably Creation starts to Act against Man the rebel.

  93. Glenn says:

    For daily stories ,updates, questions and answers, check out my facebook page. I have worked with Joey Lomangino (and have been friends with Conchita ) for over 20 years. https://www.facebook.com/groups/163674987784/

  94. Pingback: THE STORY OF GARABANDAL – FIFTY YEARS LATER | konsmaka

  95. Glenn says:

    The ” URGENCY OF GARABANDAL” my radio interview has been edited down from 2 hours to only 48 minutes ! If you haven’t heard this interview and you want to learn more about the apparitions & messages of our Blessed Mother at Garabandal, please listen.
    http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=132421&cmd=tc

  96. kathleen says:

    Thank you for this Glenn, and for the Facebook link.

    Having befriended a reliable witness of many of the apparitions at Garabandal (since deceased), then visiting this lovely unspoilt village myself where I had the unexpected meeting with Jacinta (one of the then grown up visionaries), plus reading loads of amazing testimonies, like that of the holy Jesuit, Fr. Luis Andreu, the more convinced I am of its authenticity.
    I understand the need for caution before Church approval can be given, and I would say that it is especially wise to be cautious in anything dealing with the supernatural after the rather unfortunate revelations of other phoney apparition sites, but to me everything about Garabandal rings true.

    For those who have not seen these videos, I think this link would be interesting:
    http://www.garabandal.it/en/multimedia/video

  97. Roger says:

    We must NOT blindly follow! This was the mistake made by the Jews 2000 years ago. Blindly followed. Garbandal isn’t about the attraction of the supernatural although these have been studied documented by the Church for centuries. Its about the Faith and that in every Age God speaks through Prophets. St Catherine of Siena who told a Pope what to do springs to mind!
    Also St Joan D’Arc who was condemned by certain prelates and later canonised.
    Look at the central message of Garbandal which is the chosen Road. The Broad or the Narrow? If we blindly followed prelates in England then Henry VIII is vindicated! Never forget that the smoke of Satan entered the CHURCH! The certain knowledge of P2 and Masonry. Where is the evidence that this was purged?
    There are two pillars to the Faith. The Holy Bible and Sacred Tradition (in this is found the Apostolic Succession). So the test is any lukewarm or undermining of these two pillars. Any road that leads away from these is not of God. No matter whom puts this forward.

  98. kathleen says:

    Yes Roger, but the correct interpretation of the Holy Bible, and the safeguard of Sacred Tradition (that comes from the entirety of God’s Revelation to Man up to the death of the last Apostle, St. John) are protected by the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!! The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, in its sacred teachings on Dogma and Doctrine, is our anchor to the Truth. It is for this very reason that Jesus Christ built his Church on Peter (and his successors), so that we should not lose our way.

    It is true that some ‘prelates’ are not faithful to their calling – and here careful discernment is vital – and may even teach heresies, but as one commenter on another thread wisely pointed out the other day, if we have any doubts, all we have to do is to pick up a copy of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church to know what the Body of Christ (the Church) really teaches. Most Bishops and priests are faithful sons of the Church, and we should be grateful and pray for our ‘shepherds’ who guide their ‘flocks’ towards Heaven.

  99. Roger says:

    Kathleen there are great lessons to be learned from the teaching Church and Magisterium in its history. Most notable the Arian heresy that at one point included a Pope. St. Athanasius stayed with Christ through a most perilous time. So we must be sure that we are really with the teaching Church and the Magisterium whihc many times isn’t the majority!
    Garbandal is a disgrace there has not yet been any definitive pronouncement regarding Garbandal. The Church has NOT condemned it! Popes have meet the visionaries! There is nothing revealed at Garbandal contrary to the Faith! The first investigation ignored the seers and the parish priest! it was a disgrace.
    As for Holy writ well its lessons are timeless and the Holy Ghost is still revealing Dogmas and the Truth.
    What I am not hearing nor seeing is putting the Love of God first! Defending the Divine Rights. Where is the St Athanasius in this Day?

  100. Thank you for thIs interesting information. Give total value to the Holy Eucharist, go to confession, pray for Priest who are always under attack and lead good lives. God Bless

    P.S. Toad, when Our Lady is saying “man”, this refers to both men and woman..

  101. Michael Ross says:

    Being a new Catholic (2013) and one of the 1st stories I learned of was Garabandal. I believe it and count it as one of the reasons I became Catholic. In defending Our Lady one must make note that those who choose to spend the time saying something is false or of the devil get quite strong worded/mad/irate when they do. That is not faith speaking – that is demonic influences. If you’re finding fault and getting angry about Garabandal or Medjugorje even Kibeho I challenge you to discern your feelings. Why does anger well up inside of you? I’ve found the most faithful need not aggression or mean words of attack to defend Our Lady.

    I pray my words be of a guide to you this day and that Our Lady brings your troubles to the foot of her son’s cross for intercession in your salvation. Peace for us all and this world – Long live Mary & Jesus forever, Michael R.

  102. geoffkiernan says:

    I have as a personal acquaintance, a very dear and ardent follower and proponent of the events of Garabandal. There is now doubt in my mind of Our Lady ‘s intervention in this matter. I am a cynic by nature but in spite of 35 years of employment in a very cynical occupation I am compelled by what I see and what I have discerned and I can only commend it too you,

  103. Shane says:

    Interesting times are indeed ahead, but things must get worse before they get better. We are stacking up sins all the way to heaven and heavy retribution will come. One of the most serious sins is that of abortion and in the same bracket I would say are things like stem cell research, IVF and genetic engineering – where man starts believing he is God. Life and death are matters of God and while we should try to save anyone from dying, using cells from aborted foetuses is NOT the way, in my humble opinion.

  104. Cris Mulvihill says:

    I am so anticipating this event. I wish I could speak with Conchita. Has she been heard from lately?

  105. TOM COSS says:

    I remember Garabandal Very Well from when I was a child as my grandmother Martha Lemke of Meriden, Connecticut was into this story with many books and newspaper reports about this great event! The Catholic Church should look into Garabandal more and check out just what took place there! Its time for the church to tell the world that Garabandal Is REAL and Of GOD! Thank You Very Much, Take Care, And GOD BLESS!!! From TOM COSS of Meriden, Connecticut USA

  106. kathleen says:

    Although this YouTube video below is a couple of years old now, it contains some interesting updates on the possible coming fulfillment of the messages given to Conchita by Our Lady at Garabandal very soon. Bearing in mind (in case I get ticked off by those who doubt the visions😉 ) that the Church has still not pronounced on their validity, when you take them together with Our Lady’s messages at Fatima, La Salette, Akita and Ecuador, and many of the prophesies of saints like Padre Pio and Ven. Fulton Sheen (that we published yesterday) it is perhaps wise to take note.

  107. Robert says:

    I am very glad that your are linking these together.
    Please also include St Therese of the Child Jesus and the Holy Face. I actually include also the Holy Shroud and Blessed Therese Higgenson (Sacred Head Of Jesus Seat Of Divine Wisdom). Also and forgotten was Leo XIII making St peter Patron Saint Of England and the enthronement of St Peter at Brompton Oratory by Cardinal Vaughan
    Brompton Oratory “..Here in front of the statue of St Peter, under the choir loft (a reproduction of that in St Peter’s) that the medieval dedication of England to St Peter and Our Lady was repeated by Cardinal Vaughan ..” Leo XIII 2nd June 1893 Vaughan did this with ALL of the Bishops of England and it was recorded in the Tablet
    This is from The Age! 30th May 1893
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1300&dat=18930530&id=gqIQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DJYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4273,1612369&hl=en

    The point is taking significant developments together whose time line links into this 100 years!
    Pius XII in 1917 was made titular bishop of Sardis (one of the church of the Apoc) same year as Fatima.
    Your video of Leo XIII vision and the 100 years (actually we do not know when this 100 years ran from!

    On March 3, 1962, PADRE PIO wrote a letter, in Italian, and sent it to the (4) visionaries of San Sebastian de GARABANDAL, (Conchita, Mari Cruz, Mari Loli and Jacinta Gonzales), in which he states, “At nine o’clock this morning the HOLY VIRGIN told me to say to you: “O Blessed young girls of San Sebastian de GARABANDAL, I promise you that I will be with you until the end of the centuries, and you will be with me during the end of the world and later united with me in the glory of paradise”.

    PADRE PIO goes on to say to the visionaries, “I give you only one counsel: Pray and make others pray, because the world is at the beginning of perdition where Cardinals, Bishops and Priest are on the road to perdition and are taking many Catholics with them. People do not BELIEVE in you or in your conversations with the LADY IN WHITE, but they will BELIEVE when it is too late

  108. ginnyfree says:

    Oh gee, how did I miss this article posted here at CP&S? Garabandal is a fake. I know there are many who will hate me for saying this, but, it is. None of the predictions of the seers and those associated with them have happened. The man who was supposed to be cured when the Warning etc. was about to occur, died without ever obtaining the cure he was promised. There is many observances of the girls that were preternatural and not supernatural. Huge difference between the two. Preternatural events can come from the devil; supernatural can only come from God. You figure it out. Who is the source of the events at Garabandal? It ain’t God.

    On a side note, I did watch a friend of mine from my parish go thru a huge disappointment this past March. It shook his faith to the core and it showed. He BELIEVED in the prophecies of Garabandal and was awaiting an event that was scheduled (big clue there for the simple) for March of this year. It came and went and alas, he was forced to accept that he’d invested way too much time, interest and faith in a fraud. I am praying he finally heals from the fall his faith took over this stuff. It costs way too much to believe false apparitions and the Church is way just and right to suppress any and all that fail to measure up. Even if it should cost one single soul, the price would be too high and this phoney apparition has cost many. That is the real tragedy. I pray that Jesus and His Blessed Mother turn all those back from the treacherous precipice Garabandal has proven itself to be before it costs any more souls.

    Just my observation though: no one can take you where you aren’t willing to go. Spiritual thrill seekers often lose their faith over such nonsense. My faith is a treasured gift from God and I do take measures to protect it. A healthy skepticism in the face of things like this provide prudence for this little gal where it may be lacking in me. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  109. toadspittle says:

    “Preternatural events can come from the devil; supernatural can only come from God. “
    Total gibberish, since you choose to bring it up. Gin-Girl.
    You (and others on CP&S, to be sure) come out with these utterly preposterous statements for which there is not only no “proof,” but not even a shed of evidence – either way. How the devil do we know what the Devil, or indeed – God Himself does? He’s God! …And we ain’t!

    However, do I think Garabandal is a fake? …Almost certainly. But then I think all “supernatural events” are highly dubious. Very highly dubious, indeed. Still, possibly I’m wrong, in some cases. If Muslims or Methodists claim some event or other to be a “miracle” – which they do – I don’t believe it. Neither does anyone else on here.

  110. toadspittle says:

    …In other words, Catholics believe in miracles, but only in Catholic ones. (and not all of them, either.)

    “It costs way too much to believe false apparitions..”
    In total agreement, Rogber.
    And so, since we can never know the false apparitions from the true (not nearly enough evidence*) the only wise course is to suspend belief in all of them.
    Until further, less speculative, evidence becomes available. Which, I suggest – will not be in this life.

    * ( Including the possibility that all apparitions might be false.)

    I suppose it boils down to this: If God wants us all to believe His apparitions, He should make them more credible. Not a serious problem for Him, surely?

  111. ginnyfree says:

    Toad, if having faith were that easy, all would believe the same thing. It isn’t up to God to prove anything to man. It is up to man to prove himself to God. Once this distinction is made by the man who so humbles himself, God may manifest himself to the man in ways that man had never thought of. The humble He exalts. It is not necessary to believe in any apparitions that have occurred since Jesus Ascended into Heaven and sent to Holy Spirit upon the Church at the first Pentecost Sunday. Miracles affirm faith and they will remain with us until the end, but they aren’t meant to be a proof of God’s existence to anyone and those who demand miracles of God for proof will find themselves as frustrated as the Pharisees were when they demanded of Jesus a sign. He left to their consternation and they conspired against Him and His people all the more. It hasn’t changed a bit.
    Yet for the weak in faith and those Doubting Thomas’ among us, a bona fide Marian shrine can be a great source of comfort, strength and peace. Many go on pilgrimage for the exact purpose of FINDING a lost faith or re-discovering a broken faith. It is the miracle of which all the other miracles work towards: the salvation of souls. You’d do well to go to Lourdes or Notre Dame or any of the other known places of Marian comfort Toad. And I know you have sense not to go to the others. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  112. Robert says:

    “ST PADRE PIO goes on to say to the visionaries, “I give you only one counsel: Pray and make others pray, because the world is at the beginning of perdition where Cardinals, Bishops and Priest are on the road to perdition and are taking many Catholics with them. People do not BELIEVE in you or in your conversations with the LADY IN WHITE, but they will BELIEVE when it is too late”

  113. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, I like my baloney on a bun with mayo. St. Pio never said any such thing. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  114. Brother Burrito says:

    Dear Ginny,

    That has to be the best comment on miracles I have ever read. You were clearly full of the Holy Spirit when you wrote it.

    Poor Toad-like people fail to see that they are surrounded by superabundant miracles at all times and in all places. Perhaps they are born blind and just cannot conceive of any other state, or they are bitterly proud of their blindness, or some other reason I cannot fathom that far down to.

    Real change is un-willed. It comes from God the source of all that was, is and will be. Grace rules!

  115. Brother Burrito says:

    Hey guys,

    Whether a Divine apparition or a vision is real or not, I think God doesn’t want people to fall out about it. As a Man, He was clearly a good communicator, very simple and clear, very charismatic, very true. No wonder the ordinary people loved Him. They were tired of the BS that was previously constantly on the menu for them.

    Divine interventions in reality were not designed with the modern media in mind, with its instantaneous transmission of all facts, lies and random opinions to all points simultaneously. All conversation has a context within which its meaning is held.

    The apparitions of Fatima were for the children of Fatima primarily, and secondarily for those that they knew had to hear the details: The Pope, the Bishops, the Priests, the People, in that order. Who cares about the miracles? They were merely PR, for the excitable. The message was the main thing.

    A lot of miscommunication, which is the opposite of the Gospel, can be avoided by avoiding gossip, and staying coolly in the queue for the Truth. PF rails on about this a lot for good reason. Gospel vs gossip, which should win?

  116. Robert says:

    Actually Ginny St Pio did confirm Garabandal and singled out Conchita.

    Also it is a Protestant argument that Prophecy ended with Public Revelation. Heaven has never in every generation ceased to Prophecy and has raised up seers and saints to correct even Popesn- St Catherine of Siena, St Joan D’Arc.

    “..Robert, I like my baloney on a bun with mayo. St. Pio never said any such thing. God bless. Ginnyfree ..”
    I suggest you consider a change of diet! I recommend humble pie.

  117. toadspittle says:

    “Poor Toad-like people fail to see that they are surrounded by superabundant miracles at all times and in all places. “
    A baby’s fingernails, the kindness of strangers, whiskers on kittens, and so forth, Rogbert?
    OK. Point taken.
    And I was daft to pick up on Ginny’s comment. It was pointless on my part, and no more than what’s expected on CP&S.
    It’s as if I went on a Stamp-Collecting website, then complained that everyone else on it seemed obsessed with postmarks and perforations.
    So, no more on this topic from Poor Blind Old Toad.

  118. ginnyfree says:

    BB: “Who cares about the miracles? They were merely PR, for the excitable. The message was the main thing.” What you fail to get BB, is that the Miracles were necessary to draw attention to the Message of Fatima. Why? Because God desired the Church on earth to act as she can, in offering prayers and sacrifices for sinners who will go to Hell without our coming to their aide in massive numbers by simply praying and offering sacrifices for them and He had His Mother come in a spectacular fashion so as to motivate many to do as she said. If there has been no “Miracle of the Sun,” do you think each person who prays a Rosary today would still be including a doxology that was given by Mary to these little shepherd children in some obscure place on earth with a World War to consume most of the energies of all mankind looming not far off in the distant future? Are you that cynical that you call Mary obtaining undoubtable signs from God so others will do as she said, merely “PR”? Is there any Public Relations Dept. in Heaven BB? where they contrive the latest thing in gimmicks to really draw the crowds to Church on Sundays and plump up the collection plate? Cynicism is really an ugly thing when it comes to matters of faith. But that is just my two cents. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  119. toadspittle says:

    “Because God desired the Church on earth to act as she can,”
    “Desiring” is what people do. Not God. He’s perfect.
    Which obviously means He neither desires, nor needs, anything.
    If there is a flaw in my reasoning here, I’d be happy to hear it.

  120. Robert says:

    Garabandal links directly to Leo XIII and Fatima. Fatima is part of Leo XIII Its part of Lourdes which is part of La Salette which is part of the Sacred Heart.
    The Miracle of the Sun? Start thinking very hard because Heaven doesn’t provided entertainment for the curious. Miracles teach and remind they have a duality of purpose Justice and Mercy and in Fatima’s Case the Apocalypse.
    Actually the Church isn’t about numbers filling the collection plates. Few or Many the Church will complete its purpose the Salvation of those who choose the narrow path of Heaven.
    The message of Fatima? disobedience in the House of God in 1960.

  121. Brother Burrito says:

    Jesus was very suspicious of the power of miracles to sway people en masse, even though he performed them willy-nilly for those who approached Him personally for help.

    “[Jesus,] answering them, said: O incredulous generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?” (Mark 9:19)

    He said this after being asked by a crowd to deliver the child possessed by an evil spirit.

    It strikes me that Jesus did not like the way that miracles, though good in themselves, make us into consumers of miracles. He was here for a more important reason than just performing penny-ante tricks. He was playing a much longer game with us, one that stretches to eternity (and beyond!).

    All the mystical writers are very disparaging about seeking miracles, sights and wonders, or being over-fascinated with them. God is more effectually encountered in the everyday things like feeding your kids, washing the dishes, or doing your job well. ie, in SERVICE.

    Yes Fatima by all accounts was an amazing miracle. The fact is that neither I nor many of us here were there to witness it, and there is no film or photographic evidence. It was for its time and place. It did its job. Let’s move on

    If you want to see miracles just look at the universe all around you, both the pleasant and the unpleasant. (Toad obsesses about the unpleasant because he is weak. He needs to serve the poor and weak more. That will build him up).

    The whole dang Creation is a fooking miracle! (forgive my Polish).

  122. Robert says:

    No Fatima – Cardinal Ratzinger expressly referred to Fatima and the Apoc
    Apocalypse 12:1
    And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

    There is a difference between Public revelation and Prophecy. Heaven has always spoken through Prophets and continues to do so. The Church recognises this and approves of various shrines, visionaries etc..
    Prophecy’s are often conditional and we entered the Age of Mary with the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception and in 20th century The Assumption.

    The Dance of the Sun was later seen by Pius XII by the way. The very secular Portugese press were present (up to 70000 witnessed the event), it was prior announced to the Day.

  123. toadspittle says:

    “(Toad obsesses about the unpleasant because he is weak. He needs to serve the poor and weak more. That will build him up).”
    It would be lying for me to deny I’m weak, Burron. Very weak indeed.
    Far weaker than you, for sure, and almost certainly far weaker, and more sinful and selfish than everyone else on CP&S. And I very probably do less for the poor. And, on top of all that, I know nothing. Unlike those on here who appear to know everything.
    ….Who particularly know what God is – and what He desires, and wants, and what makes Him cross and sad, and what His “plans” are.
    And they also know just what Toad ought to think, and believe and what he should be doing about the poor. And generously share their thoughts with him on these matters.
    Although, on a Muslim, or Mormon website, Toad would probably be treated to exactly the same advice.

    All that knowledge must be nice. Must make people proud that they are so clever and virtuous, but never sanctimonious. Oh, no – never.
    …Must give them a nice, smug, comfy, feeling inside.

  124. JabbaPapa says:

    If there is a flaw in my reasoning here, I’d be happy to hear it.

    It is flawed in its entirety, just as God’s Love transcends the sophistry and intrinsic materialism of the reasoning you presented.

  125. ginnyfree says:

    Not to be contradictory Toad, but why is one of the titles we use for God, Desire of the Everlasting Hills? No Toad. I don’t have a God who has no desire for me. He does. And He is a jealous God. I am the apple of His eye. He has a desire that all men might be saved. In those words some fake Catholics find a proof like Origen, that all men will eventually be saved and so have nothing to fear from God. Baloney too. They leave out the “might be” and conclude the work is all done; will someone please get the lights on the way out? There most surely was a message for the whole Church in the simple visitations at Fatima. It contradicts said baloney and reminds men that they need to pray much and offer sacrifices for sinners so aid them. Not exactly the actions of the bunch of spoiled saved Catholics we have in our midst today are willing to do. If you manage to entice them with flashy music and lights into staying in Church during the off hours and get them to actually pray a whole Rosary, well then, you’ve really moved them to sacrifice one afternoon glued to the tube watching the baseball, hockey, football, basketball, the any ball ballgame, etc. Such a sacrifice can hardly be called one, and yet it is in God’s sight because He isn’t so petty as perhaps I can be in my cynicism,
    One other thing, the messages of Fatima were so profoundly inspiring that the cheap imitations of them that certain persons tried to incorporate into the “message” of Garabandal were to me at the time, insulting and demeaning. How could anyone see in the antics of these girls the same obviously moving beauty contained in our Lady of Fatima and her message? Short answer, you can’t because it is a fake job. They imitated them because Fatima was the real thing and they hoped to move the Church and the Catholic world as much as Fatima had and so bring great financial gain to their impoverished village and people. It was a hoax and is a discredit to all genuine Marian sites as others who observe these events among our detractors are quick to point out the imbecilic faithfulness some display towards an obvious fraud and so it goes that all Marian cites are considered as fraudulent as a place like Garabandal and its false prophecies and locutions. It does the credibility of our real Marian cites harm. And some of the blame for this lies with those who cling to their claims and promote devotions to Garabandal even though the Church has recommended all such devotions stop. They should do as the Church recommends. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  126. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, this is a lie and only promoted by those at such places on the web that still claim Garabandal is true. Even if a Saint approves of a spiritual experience of another, he alone cannot speak for the Church nor credibly speak above the Church. It is a grave discredit to St. Pio to place him in such a position so as to directly contradict the Authority of the Church. Keep in mind how many years his own message and works were suppressed by the Church and the great test this was to his own humble submission to his religious superiors and the wisdom his actions proved to be. He obeyed and won the crown such obedience brings with it. So, even if one known Saint does encourage another to prayer, does that mean that the person encouraged is above all further scrutiny by the Church and is said known Saint speaking for the whole Church even above all the local Bishops involved and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? Only a fool would believe that. No one is a Saint who despises the works of said Congregation and to claim that Saint Pio did on behalf of Conchita is to do his reputation harm. I recommend you follow this link and read what is said carefully. It is the voice of Authority only found in our Church speaking and one that calls all the faithful to quick obedience. http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/GARABAND.HTM
    God bless. Ginnyfree.

  127. ginnyfree says:

    BB, Jesus never did anything “willy nilly.” That’s almost blasphemy. Please be careful.

  128. Robert says:

    Neither does Heaven do anything “willy nilly”.

    St Teresa knew the difference between blind obedience and true obedience. The trials at Nuremburg were about blind obedience.

    Thankfully the church is replete with great saints and doctors such as St Paul who when necessary rebuked and corrected even Popes.

    The Church is not a dictatorship. St Pio did expressly favour Conchita that is fact.

    In the 1960’s the list of masonic members of the Curia were published and Paul VI expressly said that the smoke of Satan had entered the Church. 1972 feast of St Peter and St Paul.
    Father Malachy Martin “The Enthronement of the Fallen Archangel Lucifer” supposedly held in St. Paul’s Chapel in the Vatican, but linked with concurrent satanic rites here in the U.S., on June 29, 1963, barely a week after the election of Paul VI”

    Fatima the Dance of the Sun was October 13 1917
    Garabandal first message revealed on October 18, 1961,
    “We must make many sacrifices, perform much penance, and visit the Blessed Sacrament frequently. But first, we must lead good lives. If we do not, a chastisement will befall us. The cup is already filling up, and if we do not change, a very great chastisement will come upon us.”

    the second “message” June 1965

    As my Message of the 18th of October has not been complied with, and as it has not been made known to the world, I am telling you that this is the last one. Previously, the Cup was filling; now, it is brimming over. Many priests are following the road to perdition, and with them they are taking many more souls. Ever less importance is being given to the Holy Eucharist. We should turn the wrath of God away from us by our own efforts. If you ask His forgiveness with a sincere heart. He will pardon you. I, your Mother, through the intercession of St. Michael the Archangel, wish to tell you that you should make amends. You are now being given the last warnings. I love you very much, and I do not want your condemnation. Ask Us sincerely and We shall grant your plea. You must make more sacrifices. Reflect on the Passion of Jesus.

    The second message caused particular controversy when it was revealed that Conchita had actually written “many cardinals, many bishops and many priests are following the road to perdition.”

    The Church has never condemned Garabandal why would it?

    Many priests visited Garabandal during the apparations and regular pilgrimages still go there?

    Nobody has ever denied that masonic list, nor the Enthronement of Satan.

    No you do not have to believe Garabandal nor Fatima because these were are Prophectic and Not Revelation. However to disobey Heaven publicly (which was done in 1960) is a very grave offence to Heaven!

  129. ginnyfree says:

    Dear Robert, you state this: “The Church has never condemned Garabandal why would it?” Um, either you’ve forgotten how to read, or have refused to read this:http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/GARABAND.HTM
    Pay attention Robert: “. All the bishops of the diocese from 1961 through 1970 asserted that the supernatural character of the said apparitions, that took place around that time, could not be confirmed. [no constaba]……… The conclusion of this study coincided with the previous findings by the bishops, which is to say, that it does not prove [no consta] the supernaturality of said apparitions……… it is re-affirmed that the supernaturality of the referenced apparitions was not proven,……..which I give finally, accepting the decisions of my predecessors and the direction of the Holy See…….. In reference to the celebration of the Eucharist in Garabandal, following the dispositions of my predecessors, I only allow that it be celebrated in the parish church without reference to the alleged apparitions and with the permission of the current pastor, who has my confidence.” That last is the most telling: they are forbidden to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at the site, meaning it has no Church approval. None. Zilch. Nada. Zero. They are allowed to have Mass as usual in their parish churches, but they are not allowed to mention the site nor its alleged apparitions. Now, Robert, how approved is that? Please let me know. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  130. Robert says:

    Ginny
    Garabandal has never been formally investigated so how can it be condemned?
    Heaven never asked for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at the Site, Why would it when there is already a church there?
    Garabandal isn’t Lourdes is it?
    As you know the pilgrimages lead by priests and yes Bishops to my certain personally knowledge have gone and go there!
    You are ill informed. Better to ask why Masonic members in the Vatican were not thrown out! Better to ask why heaven was Disobeyed very publically in 1960. Better to ask why that blood sacrifice that enthroned Satan in the Vatican took place and was known to have taken place. Ask why St Michael’s prayer has been dropped from the Mass? Ask why the sisten chapel was used for a rock gig? Ask why stem cells research (which is living human tissue ) is being encouraged by teh Curia. Ask why Evolution is promoted and Creation sidelined?

    3 May 2016 – U2’s The Edge rocks the Vatican’s Sistine Chapel … historic chapel, was given for about 200 doctors and researchers … The conference discussed the use of adult stem cells to cure difficult and rare diseases such as cancer.

    I would then suggest you reread the two messages of Garabandal. WHY WOULD SATAN ENCOURAGE VISITS TO THE BLESSED SACRAMENT? Unfortunately in many Churchs it simply isn’t there is it?

  131. Robert says:

    Conchita Goes to Rome
    In February of 1966, Conchita went to Rome at the request of Cardinal Ottaviani, who was then Prefect of the Holy Office. She went with her mother and stayed in the Eternal City some ten days. She was received and interviewed very graciously at the Holy Office by Cardinal Ottaviani and others. Then, she herself asked to see the Holy Father. She was given an appointment, but this was later cancelled. However, the Holy Father sent a person of considerable rank to Conchita. He told her that the Pope gave her his blessing and with it that of all the Church. Finally, on the following day, the Holy Father actually received Conchita and repeated verbally what he had said to her the preceding day by his personal envoy. These are incontrovertible facts that can be substantiated without doubt. It is therefore true that the Pope said to Conchita: “I bless you and with me, the whole Church blesses you.” This cannot be interpreted as approval of Garabandal, but, particularly in view of the circumstances in which it was twice given, it is not without significance.

  132. toadspittle says:

    “…which is to say, that it does not prove [no consta] the supernaturality of said apparitions…”
    Good grief, Ginner. Of course they can’t be “proved” – any more than Beethoven can be “proved” to be better than The Beatles. But neither can it (or anything metaphysical) be disproved. Nor, I see, is there any mention of condemnation of Garabandel in your extract. Except from you.

    Fatima. Garabandal. Medjugorje. Pinheads dancing on a angel.

    “Fortis imaginatio generat casum,” say the schoolmen.
    [“A strong imagination begets the event itself.”]
    …our manners and motions, testimonies and instances; how fabulous soever, provided they are possible, serve as well as the true; whether they have really happened or no…”
    – (Montaigne, from On The Imagination.)

    “The Dance of the Sun was later seen by Pius XII by the way. “
    Interesting bit of information, Robert. How?

    “If there is a flaw in my reasoning here, I’d be happy to hear it.”
    “It is flawed in its entirety, just as God’s Love transcends the sophistry and intrinsic materialism of the reasoning you presented.”

    I have faith that you will forgive me for suggesting that is not a very convincing rebuttal, Jabba.

  133. Robert says:

    Toad
    https://zenit.org/articles/pius-xii-saw-miracle-of-the-sun/
    1950 the year of the Dogmatic definition of the Assumption.
    What is sadly very revealing with Garabandal is that the second message was tampered with (words changed)
    The second message caused particular controversy when it was revealed that Conchita had actually written “many cardinals, many bishops and many priests are following the road to perdition.” The published as “.. Many priests are following the road to perdition, and with them they are taking many more souls..”
    Tampering with Prophecy indeed with translations of the Bible is a sad Truth.
    All a seer is is a mouth piece who is required to faithfully pass on what they have been given. Seers are not saints, just messagers.
    St Pio was an exemplary on Obedience and He did expressly favour Conchita.

    I know souls who have blindly followed so called obedience and lost their Faith. The commercialism of some shrines is a disgrace and Garabandal is one such shrine. Seeing the sistine chapel now turned into a commercial venue another example.

    Our Lord used the whip in the Temple against the money changers!

  134. toadspittle says:

    “The commercialism of some shrines is a disgrace and Garabandal is one such shrine. Seeing the sistine chapel now turned into a commercial venue another example.”
    Us usual Robert, we are as one. I wouldn’t go to any “shrine,” on a bet, myself, unless I particularly felt a pressing need to have my pocket picked.
    The Sistine chapel is not a shrine, and whatever nonsense is permitted inside it won’t affect the paintings one iota. (But I agree, exploiting the place for money is total vulgarity.)

  135. toadspittle says:

    “Thankfully the church is replete with great saints and doctors such as St Paul who when necessary rebuked and corrected even Popes.”
    The day when Pope-Rebuking-and-Correcting becomes an Olympic event cannot be too far in the future.

  136. Robert says:

    Notice the various Cases of child molesting that all broke (including Bishops etc..) out after 1960’s and then re look at the Prophectic Garabandal messages.

    I love the Church! Love the Faith! Love the Pope
    But in my own personal opinion have a very low esteem for this worldy PR Curia from 1960 onwards. It is lukewarm one foot in the world one foot in Heaven! Our Lord vomits the lukewarm.
    Vocations crisis? Well with serious and admitted Cases of child abuse and Masonry and Satanism a really good broom is required to sweep the place clean
    Creation puts you immediately in conflict with this world. But this is the Faith!
    Praying the Rosary properly and devoutly and persevering will bring about the Triumph promised at Fatima. But do I see prelates at their beads? Do I read encyclicals that start with Jesus and Mary No its all worldly.
    Our Lord said seek first the Kingdom of Heaven (Spirituality) and the rest will be added. Faith is believing and practising this!! Now honestly looking at Rome today what is its priority Heaven or the world?

  137. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, why do you ignore the link I provided that states that not only the current Bishop of the area, but the Holy See, the CDF and all previous Bishops of Santander disavowed any of the alleged supernatural events at Garabandal and also stated that no Liturgical celebrations can be held there. It is a fake job. Total fake. The guy who was supposedly going to get his eyesight restored died. None of the predictions have come true. There are no miracles of healing or of other things associated with the place. All that has occurred there HAS BEEN INVESTIGATED THOROUGHLY by the Church and rejected. So, why do you act as if none of this is real and continue to associate yourself with such a fraud? Why do you persist is acting towards this hoax as if it were real? I really don’t understand why anyone who considers themselves faithful can defy the CDF this way. It is insane to do so!!! They are the last word on authenticity and if they say it is not to be believed or supported or participated in, then the faithful disassociate themselves automatically from whatever it is they are condemning as unfit for belief. Hello? The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Robert. That is who you are defying. Why? What’s in it for you? God bless. Ginnyfree.

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/GARABAND.HTM

  138. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, there is one little detail about all of this that makes anyone with any Biblical knowledge know without a doubt of the fraudulent purposes of those involved in the Prophecies of Garabandal. They claim the Mother of God told them when the end would come. This is a direct contradiction of the Gospel. Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

    So Robert, how is it that these seers know when the end of the world is to come if Jesus clearly stated that NO ONE WILL KNOW THE DAY OR THE HOUR?

    That little fact alone shouts “FAKE!!!”

    Please explain to me how it is that those children could pry from the lips of the Queen of Heaven the day that the end of the world will come if none of the Apostles could find out from Jesus Himself while they were living and working with Him every day.

    God bless. Ginnyfree.

  139. toadspittle says:

    Robert will speak for himself, of course. Eloquently, no doubt. But I must make a point of secular logic.
    There is a vast difference between:
    1: Saying there is insufficient evidence on hand to verify the truth of a statement.
    2: Declaring that statement to be unequivocally false.

    No.2 is risky. As transpired with heliocentricism.

    (By the way, exactly what day and hour did the kiddies say The End is coming?)

  140. Robert says:

    Ginny
    Look at La Salette, Look at Lourdes, Look at Fatima and Look at Garabandal. Now ask this simply question why semi illiterate country girls were chosen as voice boxes?
    I suppose you are referring the following – Conchita’s
    “On 3 June 1963 — the day of the passing of Pope John XXIII — after learning that the village bells were tolling for the pope, Conchita made a startling remark to her mother Aniceta: “For sure…now there remain no more than three !” (Seguramente… Pues, ya no quedan mas que tres!) Although this was the first time that Aniceta had heard this announcement, it appears that Conchita had made mention of this more than six months earlier to others. She perhaps first was told this on 20 December 1962, as indicated by a letter that Conchita’s aunt Maximina sent to friends that same day.
    Naturally, Aniceta was shocked, and asked if this meant the end of the world was approaching (?Quiere decir que viene ya el fin del mundo?). Conchita’s response was that the Virgin did not say “the end of the world”, but rather “the end of the times”. Further, after being asked if these two were not the same, she answered only: “Well, I don’t know that.” (Pues, no lo se.)
    The End of the times isn’t the End of the World is it?

    You never say Joey but again you refer obliquely to him. Well as you will know it was St Pio who directed Joey to Garabandal. Joey had lost his Faith before going to St Pio. He was spiritual dead and blind. Garabandal opened His spiritual eyes and he was a changed man.

    As you know Paul VI recieved Conchita! that is a fact. St Pio favoured Conchita that is a fact!

    Fatima “In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph.”

    So here we have The End mentioned at Fatima and again at Garabandal. As you should know the last appearance of Our Lady at Fatima was as Our Lady Of Mt Carmel and the first appearance at Garabandal was Our Lady Of Mt Carmel.

    I simply repeat that the Church has never condemned Garabandal .

    Pope John Paul’s Message on Garabandal
    There is a book on Garabandal, written by Albrecht Weber in 1993, entitled Garabandal Der Zeigefmger Gottes (Garabandal: The Finger of God), of which a first edition copy was presented to Pope John Paul II. He later asked his secretary, Fr. (now Archbishop) Stanislaus Dziwisz, to write to the author. In the subsequent printing (2000) of the book, on page 19, a portion of the Pope’s message is reprinted, as follows:
    “May God reward you for everything. Especially for the deep love with which you are making the events connected with Garabandal more widely known. May the Message of the Mother of God find an entrance into hearts before it is too late. As an expression of joy and gratitude, the Holy Fa­ther gives you his apostolic blessing.”
    Weber writes, “From the attached greeting in the Pope’s own handwriting, with his signature, it is clear how deep an interest he has in the events of Garabandal, and how anxious he is that they should be made known in a credible way.”

  141. JabbaPapa says:

    god grief, these pointless arguments of sterile pedantry are destructive of Faith, Love, Hope, and Charity !!!

  142. Robert says:

    Yes Jabba I couldn’t agree with you more!
    Our Lady is the Serpents Adversary as fortold in Genesis.
    This means that if Satan was given 100 years to destroy the Church then Our Lady battles to save her children This is why Fatima has the Triumph of The Immaculate.
    Garabandal continues the cycle of young girl(s) semi illiterate being used as voice boxes.
    There is nothing contrary to the Faith revealed at Garabandal. What is outstanding are the three events the Warning, the Miracle and the Permanent Sign?
    Saint Edmund Campion, who in the 16th century “pronounced a great day, Saint Faustina envisioned a great luminous cross in the sky, and in the 19th century Pius IX saw something similar, Maria Taigi, St. Edmund Campion) refer to as the “Illumination of Consciences”.
    In other words there is nothing new here that hadn’t already been predicted.

  143. ginnyfree says:

    Okie dokie Toadie, you asked for it. Here is one example of their “prophecies” that proliferate on the Internet, but before a post it and link to it, I want everyone to know that I think this is a fraud, and should NOT in any way be promoted as Truth. It is grave error of the gravest as it predicts the actual end of the world as we know it!!!!! Anyone with half a brain looking at this stuff knows it is baloney, but since some folks like falling for any spiritual thrill ride that comes along, I recommend that it be dismissed as utter fiction as soon as it is read.

    “Prophecy of the Popes :
    3 Popes and 1 with a short reign = 3 and 1 = 4 Popes then the end of the times

    So, The end of the times started on March 2013.

    Strangely, 13 March 2013, the day of Pope Francis election, if we add each number as some escatologue : 1+3+0+3+2+0+1+3 = 13, so since the election of Pope Francis on March 2013, we are living the end of the Times indicated in Garabandal and surely linked to the Fatima 3rd Secret as the number 13 is Fatima, there is also 13 Days between the Resignation of Pope Benedict and the election of Pope Francis (February 28 – March 13 = 13 Days), no coincidence with God, so probably Pope Francis is the Pope of Fatima and the Pope of the vision.

    This end of the times indicated in Garabandal is not a new era or the end of our times but the end of the times indicated in the Apocalypse and “A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” (Rev. 12:1), The Woman clothed with the Sun is our Lady of Mount Carmel who was crowned with 12 stars as well, this explain why she was not veiled but had on her head a crown of 12 stars only as in the Apocalypse, Veil hides, No Veil Reveals, de facto she is the Lady of the Book of Revelation, the Woman Clothed with the Sun.” This false prophecy along a few others can be found here: https://garabandalnews.org/2016/01/01/garabandal-prophecies-by-aviso/
    And if that isn’t enough, the above prediction is actually a REVISION OF THE DATE of the end of the world based upon the fact that said end was supposedly to begin a lot sooner, but that prediction failed and like the Jehovah’s Witnesses are famous for, they had to re-calculate when THE END would come. Yeah.

    Oh and there’s more. Here are the 4 main false prophecies from which the rest got built upon: “The four warnings given were (in order of sequence):
    The Warning: A worldwide warning is to be experienced by everyone on earth. Its purpose will be to call humanity to amend its behavior and return to God.
    The Miracle: A great miracle will occur in the late winter or early spring within one year after the warning.
    Signs of the Miracle: Permanent signs of the miracle will remain for all time at a pine grove near Garabandal and other selected locations of Marian apparitions.
    The Chastisement: A terrible chastisement will occur during which many will die. Other prophecies indicate that this chastisement will eliminate up to two-thirds of humanity.”

    Now Toad, since they PREDICTED that 2/3rds of the persons on the earth would die, do you think for one minute the Church could ever approve of this? They are saying the whole wide world would experience this stuff and then THE END! Oh yeah. I really need this.

    But what I cannot figure out is why seemingly sane and rational people who are otherwise nice and pleasant to be around would suddenly turn wicked if you mention that this stuff is bunko. Why does Robert cling to it as if it is true? Why insist it is real? No one will know the day or the hour, so when anyone even remotely begins to predict the end times stuff it is time to give them a wide berth and paddle your canoe elsewhere. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  144. Robert says:

    Ginny
    Haven’t a clue whom AVISO is and why are you reading this?

    The Garabandal Messages
    18 October 1961
    We must make many sacrifices, perform much penance, and visit the Blessed Sacrament frequently. But first, we must lead good lives. If we do not, a chastisement will befall us. The cup is already filling up, if we do not change, a very great chastisement will come upon us.

    18 June 1965 (St Michael)
    As my message of October l8th has not been complied with and has not been made known to the world, I am advising you that this is the last one. Before, the cup was filling up. Now it is flowing over. Many cardinals, many bishops, and many priests are on the road to perdition and are taking many souls with them. Less and less importance is being given to the Eucharist. You should turn the wrath of God away from yourselves by your efforts. If you ask His forgiveness with sincere hearts, He will pardon you. I, your mother, through the intercession of Saint Michael the archangel, ask you to amend your lives. You are now receiving the last warnings. I love you very much and do not want your condemnation. Pray to us with sincerity and we will grant your requests. You should make more sacrifices. Think about the passion of Jesus.

    Our Lord expressly said that His Kingdom was not of this world! He also said it was possible to be dead but alive. The difference between the death of the body and that of the soul.

    Right now there are global Anti Christian Laws. Sin is the death of the Soul! SIN
    Reject Christ and you have closed the door of Heaven and opened that of Hell.
    In other words millions are condemning themselves by rejecting Christ!

    Modernism is trying to drag the Church into the world making it relevant, and by changing Divine Laws and denying Revelation (which is called myth). The Church is spiritual and NOT of this world

    The Question is how long will Heaven permit the destruction of souls and of the Church?

  145. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, reality check. Nothing they predicted happened and the Church investigated more than once and pronounced it unworthy of belief. They aren’t allowed to have Mass there, even to this day.

    Please answer one simple question: Why do you cling to something the Church has washed its hands of even AFTER proofs of this hand washing has been presented to you by many, not only here, but elsewhere?

    God bless. Ginnyfree.

  146. Robert says:

    Faith and Love in Jesus and Mary and in His Church. Reality is a modernist word Ginny. Modernism that crawls like a viper over Christs Words. Modernism that thinks it can judge Christ. Reality Ginny is in the spiritual.

    The time for the fulfilment of Garabandal hasn’t yet been announced. Many will go there but to be entertained like a circus and this will not save their souls.

    As for hand washing? Pilate washed his hands did he not?
    The multitude screamed for blood and chose the murder and robber Barrabas.

  147. JabbaPapa says:

    Reality is a modernist word

    No it isn’t, and BTW you’re presenting a matter/spirit dualism that is directly contrary to the Catholic Faith.

    I have serious doubts about Garabandal, but in any case the events there cannot be unambiguously presented as though they were of a divine origin

  148. toadspittle says:

    “The multitude screamed for blood and chose the murder and robber Barrabas.”
    Can anyone explain what motive “The Multitude” had for doing so? And why the Jews chose to curse themselves and their entire race for eternity? And that’s Gospel Truth, isn’t it?
    What did they have to gain? A coherent answer to that question would be worth hearing.

    “Okie dokie Toadie, you asked for it.”
    I didn’t actually ask for all that wonderous, Oo-err, numerological mumbo-jumbo, Gin-Free-Girl, but I certainly got it. And very funny it was, too. Brightened up my morning – and everyone else’s (except Robert’s of course) I’m sure. So, many thanks.

    “Robert, reality check.”
    “Reality check?” From one Catholic to another? What is the world coming to?

  149. Robert says:

    Jabba

    Garabandal has never been condemned by the Church especially with the unfulfilled, as yet, three outstanding events, I mean that would be very foolish wouldn’t it?

    “I have serious doubts about Garabandal, but in any case the events there cannot be unambiguously presented as though they were of a divine origin”

    You are correct that you do not have to believe Garabandal or otherwise, but neither can it be dismissed out of hand, at the very least prudent silence. If you are interested there are excellent and well informed books on the seers and events. Unlike Fatima It was photographed, filmed, documented (thats scientific as well as theological , medical, pyschology etc..).

    Reality is or has become a modernist word and it now means Naturalism which is Materialism.
    Virtual reality is the word used to explain the non physical. This brings Us to Our Lord and His Kingdom which as he said is not of this world (that is because if you recoil Adam and Eve were evicted from Paradise into this world ) . This world is finite the next is Eternity. So what then is Real the finite world or the Eternal?

    The Catholic Faith and Man? St Paul tells us Body, Spirit and Soul that’s Man.
    Our Lord proved the Resurrection of the Body (the body is subject to the Law of Death)
    That leaves the spirit and soul. Now as Our Lord told the good thief this Day you shall be with me in Paradise. The Good thief has not resurrected so that means His spirit and soul are in Heaven does it not?

    The Transfiguration we find Moses and Elias talking to Our Lord. Wasn’t Moses dead and his body buried? What about Elias? Well He hadn’t died had he?

    Purgatory and Hell means Pain and Suffering but of what the Body (but this hasn’t yet Resurrected) it means the spirit and soul. This means that consciousness and senses are part of the spirit else how could they suffer?

    Our Lord explained that a Man could be dead (bodily) and yet alive (spirit and soul) and to fear he (Satan) who could Kill the soul! (Hell).

    It also means at the Resurrection the body will be reunited to the spirit and soul for Eternity that is Heaven or Hell.

    What don’t you understand?

  150. JabbaPapa says:

    Garabandal has in fact been formally condemned by the Church.

    —— Quoted from elsewhere ( http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Garabandal2.html ) :

    Cardinal Seper, Prefect of the congregation For the Sacred Doctrine Of the Faith wrote this letter to Archbishop Philip M. Hannan of New Orleans, Louisiana on April 21, 1970.

    “Seal”

    “This office has received you letter of April 1970 in which you expressed justifiable apprehension about the diffusion of the Garabandal movement in your Archdiocese and in which you asked for clear and reliable guidelines from the Holy See for dealing with this phenomenon.

    “The Holy See share your perception about the manifest and increasing confusion due to the diffusion of this movement among the faithful and desires with this letter to clarify its position on the matter.

    “This Sacred Congregation despite requests form various Bishops and faithful has always refused to define the supernatural character of the events of Garabandal. After the definitive negative judgment issued by the Curia of Santander this Sacred Congregation, after attentive examination of the proceedings forwarded to this office has often praised the prudence that characterized the method followed in the examination but has still decided to leave direct responsibility for the matter to the local Ordinary.

    “The Holy see has always held that the conclusions and dispositions of the Bishop of Santander were sufficiently secure guidelines for the Christian people and indications for the Bishops to order to dissuade people from participating in pilgrimages and other acts of devotion that are based on claims connected with or founded on the presumed apparitions and messages of Garabandal. On March 10, 1996; this Sacred Congregation wrote a letter to this effect to the Bishop of Santander who had also asked for a more explicit declaration of the Holy See to the matter.

    “However promoters of the Garabandal movement have tried to minimize the decisions and the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Santander. THIS SACRED CONGREGATION WANTS IT TO BE CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD THAT THE BISHOP OF SANTANDER HAS BEEN AND CONTINUES TO BE THE ONLY ONE WITH COMPLETE JURISDICTION IN THIS MATTER AND THE HOLY SEE HAS NO INTENTION OF EXAMINING THIS QUESTION ANY FURTHER, since it holds that the examinations already carried out are sufficient as well as are the official declarations of the Bishop of Santander. There is no truth to the statement that the Holy See has named an Official Papal Private Investigator of Garabandal and affirmations attributed to the anonymous personage to the extent that the verification of the Garabandal apparitions lies completely in the hands of the Holy Father Pope Paul VI and other such expressions that aim at undermining the authority of the decisions of the Bishop of Santander are completely unfounded.

    “In order to reply to certain doubts that you expressed in your letter this Sacred Congregation wishes to assert: that the Holy See has never approved even indirectly the Garabandal movement, that it has never encouraged or blessed Garabandal promoters or centers. Rather the Holy See deplores that fact that certain persons and Institutions persist in formatting the movement in obvious contradiction with the dispositions of ecclesiastical authority and thus disseminate confusion among the people especially among the simple and defenseless.

    “From what has been said so far you will easily realize that though this Sacred Congregation certainly agrees with the contents of the note of May 10, 1969 (as published in various countries and especially in the French magazine LA DOCUMENTATION CATHOLIC September 21, 1966, n:1547 p. 821) It must say that it is inexact to attribute the part of the text that deals with the lack of supernatural character of the events of Garabandal of the Sacred Congregation which has always striven to abstain from any direct declaration on the question precisely because it did not consider it necessary to do so after the clear and express decisions of the Bishop of Santander. This is the genuine meaning of the letter written on January 21, 1970 by the Most Reverend Paul Phillippe, Secretary of this Sacred Congregation to the editor in chief of LA DOCUMENTATION CATHOLIQUE.

    “In order to contribute further to your pastoral action in this matter, this office is enclosing other essential documents already published in other countries such as Spain: The two official notices of the Bishop of Santander, two letters of the Sacred Congregation to the same Bishop and a letter to the Apostolic Delegate to Mexico. This office hopes in this letter to have clarified a question that concerns not just your Archdiocese but also other dioceses.

    “With sentiments of deepest esteem and cordial respect

    “I am devotedly yours

    signed:

    “Francis Cardinal Seper Prefect

    also signed:

    “Paul Philippe , Secretary”

    On October 11, 1996 the new bishop, Jose Vilaplana, again placed his prohibition on the alleged apparitions and said it is final.

    “Some people have been coming directly to the Diocese of Santander (Spain) asking about the alleged apparitions of Garabandal and especially for the answer about the position of the hierarchy of the Church concerning these apparitions.

    I need to communicate that:

    All the bishops of the diocese since 1961 through 1970 agreed that there was no supernatural validity for the apparitions.
    In the month of December of 1977 Bishop Dal Val of Santander, in union with his predecessors, stated that in the six years of being bishop of Santander there were no new phenomena.
    The same bishop, Dal Val, let a few years go by to allow the confusion or fanaticism to settle down, and then he initiated a commission to examine the apparitions in more depth. The conclusion of the commission agreed with the findings of the previous bishops. That there was no supernatural validity to such apparitions.
    At the time of the conclusions of the study, in 1991, I was installed bishop in the diocese. So during my visit to Rome, ad limina visit which happened in the same year, I presented to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith the study and I asked for pastoral direction concerning this case.
    On Nov. 28, 1992, the Congregation sent me an answer saying that after examining the documentation, there was no need for direct intervention (by the Vatican) to take away the jurisdiction of the ordinary bishop of Santander in this case. Such a right belongs to the ordinary. Previous declarations of the Holy See agree in this finding. In the same letter they suggested that if I find it necessary to publish a declaration, that I reconfirm that there was no supernatural validity in the alleged apparitions, and this will make a unanimous position with my predecessors.
    Given that the declarations of my predecessors who studied the case have been clear and unanimous, I don’t find it necessary to have a new public declaration that would raise notoriety about something which happened so long ago. However, I find it necessary to rewrite this report as a direct answer to the people who ask for direction concerning this question, which is now final: I agree with [and] I accept the decision of my predecessors and the direction of the Holy See.
    In reference to the Eucharistic celebration in Garabandal, following the decision of my predecessors, I ruled that Masses can be celebrated only in the parish church and there will be no references to the alleged apparitions and visiting priests who want to say Mass must have approval from the pastor, who has my authorization. It’s my wish that this information is helpful to you.
    My regards in Christ,

    Jose Vilaplana

    Bishop of Santander

    Oct. 11, 1996

    [Underlines added to the letter by author.]

    Never, has any apparition received so many condemnations as Garabandal. And yet, to this day, some of the finest priests and Catholic layman still hang on to this Satanic Vision and promote it.

  151. Robert says:

    Pope John Paul’s Message on Garabandal
    There is a book on Garabandal, written by Albrecht Weber in 1993, entitled Garabandal Der Zeigefmger Gottes (Garabandal: The Finger of God), of which a first edition copy was presented to Pope John Paul II. He later asked his secretary, Fr. (now Archbishop) Stanislaus Dziwisz, to write to the author. In the subsequent printing (2000) of the book, on page 19, a portion of the Pope’s message is reprinted, as follows:
    “May God reward you for everything. Especially for the deep love with which you are making the events connected with Garabandal more widely known. May the Message of the Mother of God find an entrance into hearts before it is too late. As an expression of joy and gratitude, the Holy Fa­ther gives you his apostolic blessing.”
    Weber writes, “From the attached greeting in the Pope’s own handwriting, with his signature, it is clear how deep an interest he has in the events of Garabandal, and how anxious he is that they should be made known in a credible way.”

  152. Robert says:

    This problem of disobedience to the Pope and the Papacy seems to be endemic in the Curia since 1960 doesn’t it.

  153. JabbaPapa says:

    A truly Faithful Catholic has every reason to reject and condemn Garabandal, and BTW all of the seers themselves now do so and refuse to have anything more to do with it, and no amount or manner of trivial information/disinformation can change that.

    Please read the entirety of the web page I linked to — it could certainly be better written and presented, but it shows very clearly the principle reasons why Garabandal should be rejected as a false event and of Satanic origin, much like Medjugorje.

  154. JabbaPapa says:

    Here is a better-written source warning against such false apparitions : https://www.olrl.org/prophecy/medjugorje.shtml

  155. ginnyfree says:

    Praise God! Thank you Jabba for much work on the behalf of poor Robert who intends to continue to cling to that which is false out of pride even in light of the actual documented proofs of the Church’s position on the whole matter.

    Robert, I read in those letters from the CDF, words such as “negative judgement,” “deplores,” “no truth,” ” apprehension,” “refused,” “dissuade,” “contradiction,” etc. all words that would make a person who is concerned about remaining faithful to the Church cringe. That is very strong language coming from a Congregation in the Church that for the rest of us DEMANDS immediate obedience justly. This thread has repeated these things to you Robert, several times and yet you throw off the gentle yoke of Christ by refusing to see the authentic reality shown by the Church in these matters. Instead, you grow defensive and reject what has been said by the Church as corruption and proof that the Curia is wrong, etc. just like any proud Protestant would.

    Please Robert, pay careful attention to these words of the Sacred Congregation: “the Holy See has never approved even indirectly the Garabandal movement, that it has never encouraged or blessed Garabandal promoters or centers. Rather the Holy See deplores that fact that certain persons and Institutions persist in formatting the movement in obvious contradiction with the dispositions of ecclesiastical authority and thus disseminate confusion among the people especially among the simple and defenseless.”

    Now, I don’t know about you, but if the Church speaks and states clearly that they deplore dissemination of the Garabandal message, I’d cease and desist as of yesterday, if not sooner! Yet you claim that this washing of it hands of all this falsehood is to you, Robert, to be likened unto Pontius Pilate’s famous act after condemning Christ! I can only see in this comparison of yours a total repudiation of the genuine and Apostolic Authority of the Church expressed in its fullness in such communications as are shown you here and elsewhere. You’ve become a Protestant in this matter. And you seem very good at defending your position. Please note the love the Church has for the “simple and defenseless,” who will listen to the false messages as if they are real because seemingly happy Catholics tell them they are! Yes, I deplore this duplicitous fraud as well. Jesus’ little lambs snatched from His embrace over phoney predictions about the end of the world and great punishments from God for sins! The Jehovah’s Witnesses could’ve written the script for it all. Robert, the best thing you can do is desist from any further involvement with ALL of the Garabandal stuff, in reading, writing or speaking of it and go a make a thorough confession of it all. That is your only hope, the Confessional. Your purpose of amendment which is necessary for validity on your part in said Sacrament, is to cease promotion of this falsehood in any way and maybe even talk to a few who may be close to you who have been persuaded to believe in this nonsense by actions you have taken.

    Robert, have you ever left leaflets or literature regarding Garabandal at your parish or elsewhere? Have you sent money to them? Help book pilgrimages to the site? Gone there yourself? If after reading the paragraph I copied here, you fail to acknowledge the Church’s justly deploring such actions and repent in your heart of them, you will suffer the fires of Hell for it as is your just reward for your choice to ignore the wise words of the Congregation. You have a choice Robert – either obey or pay the price millions of others have for rebellion. Hell is choice some make for themselves every day. You could turn back to Christ if you choose to. He awaits you in that secret, sacred place, the Confessional. Please don’t deny Him there anymore. He died for you.

    God bless. Ginnyfree.

  156. Robert says:

    Jabba and Ginny

    The Pope has spoken in writing!
    Let the rest be silent!

  157. ginnyfree says:

    Thanks again Jabba. “some of the finest priests and Catholic layman still hang on to this Satanic Vision and promote it.” Ron Conte is one who comes to mind. Fools. All of them. Including the one guy at my parish who told me about the Warning and Chastisement that was supposed to happen this past March. He informed about it about nine months before then and totally rejected me as if I was an instrument of the devil for telling him it was false and he shouldn’t be telling others about it. I sent him a copy of one of the letters you’ve presented here and he rejected it as false and told me after he read it that they (meaning the Church) rejected Bernadette’s message at Lourdes too and as far as he was concerned, this very rejection is what caused him to see that it is true! He stopped coming to a little class at our parish I go to because he thought I was from the devil for telling him the truth about Garabandal and the Church’s real position on it and couldn’t face further defense of the Church’s position on this by me in that little class. A few of the magazines they publish were left laying around not long after this which I made sure landed in the nearest trash can. He smugly kept to himself for the next months and as March came closer he got more confident that I and the rest of us were about to be caught with our pants down! He serves the Altar on a regular basis and I see him almost every time I go to Mass during the week. He looked very shaken up by the end of March. Sad but true. I can only hope he took all this to the Confessional after March’s madness. Yeah. I’ve noticed some of the sites that still promote Garabandal have offered alternative dates for the end of the world as we know it since then. Yeah I still check. Insane people waiting on the end. May the Lord have mercy on their poor souls. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  158. Robert says:

    Pope John Paul II in writing on a matter of Faith and Morals

    “May God reward you for everything. Especially for the deep love with which you are making the events connected with Garabandal more widely known. May the Message of the Mother of God find an entrance into hearts before it is too late. As an expression of joy and gratitude, the Holy Fa­ther gives you his apostolic blessing.”

  159. toadspittle says:

    ” (Robert), if you fail to acknowledge the Church’s justly deploring such actions and repent in your heart of them, you will suffer the fires of Hell for it as is your just reward for your choice to ignore the wise words of the Congregation.”
    Eternal damnation over a mild difference of opinion seems a bit harsh to me. But what do I know? It is Catholics talking, after all.
    The Ginless Wonder seems to know a very great deal about what God approves – and disapproves of. Maybe she does. And maybe she doesn’t.
    But it’s all horrible.

  160. Gertrude says:

    Apologies – reply came up on the wrong post!

  161. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, sayin’ it is so doesn’t make it so.

    Have you credible links to said published remarks? Oh and they HAVE TO BE from a site other than www garabandal. org Verifiable sites. Or how about the title of the book you claim this is published in. In other words, PROVE IT.

    You can’t. And the paragraph I plucked from Jabba’s contribution is directly aimed at allegations such as you are attempting to make.

    ” that the Holy See has never approved even indirectly the Garabandal movement” Robert, would you agree that the Pope is a part of the Holy See? As such, when the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation published that sentence above, he was speaking with the full Authority that the Pope gives him and what he says is to be taken as if the Pope said it. Robert, you cannot defy him and claim to be a faithful Catholic in a matter as grave as this. To be in Communion with the Vicar of Christ is to obey his duly appointed persons. You’ve broken Communion with Rome and you are passing off statements supposedly made by the Holy Father as if he himself is defying the CDF! You are lying about a Pope. Do you even realize how serious a sin that is? You need Confession in the worst way Robert. I sincerely hope you get that, if you don’t get anything else. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  162. Robert says:

    The charism of Papal Infallibility is only for the Pope (cannot be deligated) and expressly on matters of Faith and Morals. Peter cannot be mistaken and once made it binds for ever. To deny this calls the Holy Ghost a liar.

    [The Moderator – Roger, you can count this as the first warnings/reminder required by the Moderator – any more of this and you will join the ranks of the pre-moderated]

  163. JabbaPapa says:

    The charism of Papal Infallibility

    … is not expressed through alleged personal notes to private individuals.

  164. johnhenrycn says:

    All I can say about Garabandal is that there’s never been a scintilla of corrupt self-serving garbage associated with the seers there, unlike that place in the Balkans. People talk about or suggest fraud or hysteria without a scintilla (love that word) of evidence in support. I stand by my opinion from three years ago (supra). I take this event seriously without pronouncing it a miracle from heaven. Time will tell. In the meantime, I have these past few days, since becoming reacquainted with this thread, thought long and hard about my lack of thought about Holy Mary’s place in salvation. How that can be thought to be inconsequential or due to some sort of Satanic influence I cannot fathom. I have said several times before: there is an honoured place for mythic truth in the life of the Church.

  165. ginnyfree says:

    Robert to Ginnyfree: “You have had the three warnings/reminders required by the Church.”

    Ginnyfree to Robert: should I begin to call you Holiness or Your Eminence? I had no idea you were so powerful Robert. (I’m seriously tempted to use one of the Toadmeister’s pet names for you.)

    As Jabba has so readily pointed out, even if your “note” is actually authentic, which I highly doubt, it is only a pat on the back and not the alleged Papal Approval of all the alleged happenings and locutions at Garabandal.

    On a more personal note Robert, and pay attention here, I have a love for the Queen of Heaven that will NOT allow me to see her with any sin at all, even remote sin. She is not capable of any sin, as she never had any nor instigated any in any person on earth at any time. She leads all souls to her Divine Son who come to her. Persons who claim that she knows the unknowable, that is the time for the end of the world and has sinned against God by revealing this information to persons on earth so that they can forewarn the Church and the world, well, this is impossible. Totally. The only persons who would cast the Blessed Virgin Mary in such a dark light must think every person on the planet has never read a Bible concerning the end of time. Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” Those are the words of our Blessed Lord. How great a sin is it to insist He is lying? or that Mary, His Holy Mother is capable of prying this forbidden information out of Him so as to tell those on earth of its impending doom? The way I feel towards such innuendos about Mary, the Virgin Mother of God who IS the Immaculate Conception as has been revealed to us at Lourdes, France, an AUTHENTIC Marian site BTW, something always and everywhere already believed by the faithful of the Church for countless generations, is beyond your understanding. Robert every time you insist that those children at Garabandal actually talked to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the SINLESS Mother of God and that she revealed to them something God Himself told His Apostles that no one would ever know in advance of its happening, you call this sinless Virgin a sinner and at such level as to turn her into a false Prophetess. Now, can you manage to sin against her in a greater way? Try. It won’t take much since you’ve already told us that the CDF has no Authority to dispose of the seers of Garabandal. Would you care to go on? I’m all ears.

    God bless. Ginnyfree.

  166. Robert says:

    Ginny
    I cannot find any reference anywhere to Conchita and Our Lady and the End Of The World.

    It was during the early part of June 1963, the bells of Garabandal started to ring. The following conversation then occurred between Conchita and her mother, Aniceta:
    Conchita: “The bells are tolling for the dead! It must be for the pope (John XXIII, 1958-1963). Now only three remain.”
    Aniceta: “What nonsense are you talking about?”
    Conchita: “It is not nonsense. The Virgin told me: After this pope there will only be three more.”
    Aniceta: “Then what? Will it be the end of the world?”
    Conchita: “The Virgin did not say the end of the world but the end of time.”
    This excerpt is from Ramon Perez’s book “The Village Speaks.”

    Fact
    Conchita met and was blessed by Paul VI twice and John Paul II once.

    According to the doctrine of the Fifth Lateran Council and Pope Leo X (1512), the Holy Father is the only judge of revelations of this kind (prophecies).

    As regards the Bishop of Santander photos exist of him present during the apparitions.

    No I do not frequent Garabandal sites.
    No I do not and never have promulgated Garabandal leaflets.
    Yes I had a personal experience of a crucifix kissed by Our Lady at Garabandal.
    No I wasn’t aware that objects had been Kissed at Garabandal.

    There is a Heaven, Our Lady is in Heaven Body and Soul. Heaven brings Peace and also the Cross.

    Prophecy? Its conditional (prayer and penance). End Of a time? Well Christ restores all things, reverses what was lost by Adam and Eve. The Church (commonly agreed by the Fathers of the Churcvh) will have its Triumphant, which is One Faith on the Earth before the End. Our Lady at Fatima said in the End My Immaculate Heart will triumph.

    Our Lady is Satans bitter enemy and it is she who will crush His head.

  167. johnhenrycn says:

    When Robert said: “You have had the three warnings/reminders required by the Church.”, he wasn’t being imperious, pompous or threatening. He was being Robert. Or Roger. As proved by his last comment (00:22) where he completely ignores his possible “pre-moderation” to inform us all of something or other. He reminds me of that famous English novelist, Edward Bulwer-Lytton, whose
    “dark and stormy night” trademark phrase is a treasured part of our heritage.

  168. JabbaPapa says:

    Now only three remain

    So, after John XXIII : Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis so far — how does that add up to “only three”, and how exactly is such a blatantly false claim “supportive” of Garabandal being “genuine” ?

    According to the doctrine of the Fifth Lateran Council and Pope Leo X (1512), the Holy Father is the only judge of revelations of this kind (prophecies).

    I think you are greatly mistaken ; for starters because you clearly have an all too common confusion concerning the difference between warnings and prophecies, and also because both the Congregation For The Doctrine of the Faith and the College of Exorcists, as well as each local Ordinary personally concerning matters occurring in their Dioceses, are all Ordinarily Authoritative in such matters as these.

    As for the Fifth Lateran Council, contrary to your false suggestions, it overtly and very forcefully condemns such things as are associated with Garabandal :

    Indeed, in no other way do these preachers cause greater harm and scandal to the less educated than when they preach on what should be left unspoken or when they introduce error by teaching what is false and useless. Since such things are known to be totally opposed to this holy and divinely instituted religion, as being novelties and foreign to it, it is surely just for them to be examined seriously and carefully, lest they cause scandal for the christian people and ruin for the souls of their authors and of others. We therefore desire, in accord with the word of the prophet, Who makes harmony dwell in the house, to restore that uniformity which has lost esteem, and to preserve such as remains, insofar as we can with God’s help, in the holy church of God, which by divine providence we preside over and which is indeed one, preaches and worships one God and firmly and sincerely professes one faith. We wish that those who preach the word of God to the people be such that God’s church suffers no scandal from their preaching. If they are amenable to correction, let them abstain in future from these matters into which they have recently ventured. For it is clear that, in addition to the points which we have mentioned, a number of them are no longer preaching the way of the Lord in virtue and are not expounding the gospel, as is their duty, but rather invented miracles, new and false prophecies and other frivolities hardly distinguishable from old wives’ tales. Such things give rise to great scandal since no account is taken of devotion and authority and of its condemnations and rejections. There are those who make attempts to impress and win support by bawling everywhere, not sparing even those who are honoured with pontifical rank and other prelates of the church, to whom they should rather be showing honour and reverence. They attack their persons and their state of life, boldly and without discrimination, and commit other acts of this kind. Our aim is that so dangerous and contagious an evil and so mortal a disease may be thoroughly wiped out and that its consequences may be so completely swept away that not even its memory remains .

    We decree and ordain, with the approval of the sacred council, that nobody -whether a secular cleric or a member of any of the mendicant orders or someone with the right to preach by law or custom or privilege or otherwise — may be admitted to carry out this office unless he has first been examined with due care by his superior, which is a responsibility that we lay on the superior’s conscience, and unless he is found to be fit and suitable for the task by his upright behaviour, age, doctrine, honesty, prudence and exemplary life. Wherever he goes to preach, he must provide a guarantee to the bishop and other local ordinaries concerning his examination and competence, by means of the original or other letters from the person who examined and approved him. We command all who undertake this task of preaching, or will later undertake it, to preach and expound the gospel truth and holy scripture in accordance with the exposition, interpretation and commentaries that the church or long use has approved and has accepted for teaching until now, and will accept in the future, without any addition contrary to its true meaning or in conflict with it. They are always to insist on the meanings which are in harmony with the words of sacred scripture and with the interpretations, properly and wisely understood, of the doctors mentioned above. They are in no way to presume to preach or declare a fixed time for future evils, the coming of antichrist or the precise day of judgment; for Truth says, it is not for us to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority. Let it be known that those who have hitherto dared to declare such things are liars, and that because of them not a little authority has been taken away from those who preach the truth .

    We are placing a restriction on each and all of the said clerics, secular and regular and others, of whatever status, rank or order, who undertake this task. In their public sermons they are not to keep on predicting some future events as based on the sacred writings, nor presume to declare that they know them from the holy Spirit or from divine revelation, nor that strange and empty predictions are matters which must be firmly asserted or held in some other way. Rather, at the command of the divine word, let them expound and proclaim the gospel to every creature, rejecting vices and commending virtues. Fostering everywhere the peace and mutual love so much commended by our Redeemer, let them not rend the seamless garment of Christ and let them refrain from any scandalous detraction of bishops, prelates and other superiors and of their state of life. Yet these they rebuke and hurt before people generally, including the laity, not only heedlessly and extravagantly but also by open and plain reproof, with the names of the evildoers sometimes being stated by them .

  169. The Raven says:

    Conchita: “It is not nonsense. The Virgin told me: After this pope there will only be three more.”

    Doesn’t the fact that we are on Pope number 5 following John XXIII make you question any of this, Roger?

    Fact
    Conchita met and was blessed by Paul VI twice and John Paul II once.

    Which is probative of what, Roger? The pope blesses a lot of people, it’s one of his jobs, and devout Catholic ladies are fairly close to the top of his list of people to bless.

    According to the doctrine of the Fifth Lateran Council and Pope Leo X (1512), the Holy Father is the only judge of revelations of this kind (prophecies).

    But in the absence of an explicit papal pronouncement on the matter, the authority to judge this revelation belongs to the person to whom authority has been given to deal with the case, namely the bishop of Santander and his successors.

    As regards the Bishop of Santander photos exist of him present during the apparitions.

    Unless you’re accusing the bishop of being of bad will, doesn’t that suggest that he was ideally placed to make a judgment as to the nature and quality of those apparitions? Certainly better placed than a chap who’s read some pamphlets or cruised a website.

  170. JabbaPapa says:

    And : It is therefore our will that as from now, by common law, alleged inspirations of this kind, before they are published, or preached to the people, are to be understood as reserved for examination by the apostolic see.

    “the apostolic see” means, here, the Diocesan See, in other words the local Ordinary.

    HOW many falsehoods of yours must we expose before you’ll give up promoting these false apparitions that have been formally condemned by the Church on multiple occasions, and that all of the seers themselves have now rejected ?

  171. toadspittle says:

    “But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”
    So, The Holy Spirit doesn’t know, either. Only one person knows.

    As to “apparitions,” I’d treat each and every one of them with the greatest possible scepticism.
    And, having read all of the above, It’s not hard to see why.

    Kathleen is keeping commendably silent counsel on this. We should listen to her.

  172. Robert says:

    [The Moderator – This is heresy Roger.]

  173. toadspittle says:

    Thats the trouble when faced with a conundrum “only three more”
    That’s not a conundrum – that’s a statement.

    “How convenient to avoid changing your lives by attacking seers and apparition sites!”
    Any reason why we shouldn’t pursue both courses?

    “Atheists who to avoid reparation deny God! “
    That’s not why they do it. They just don’t believe in Him – that’s all.

  174. toadspittle says:

    [The Moderator – This is heresy Roger.]

    What is heresy, Mr.(s?) The Moderator?
    How do we know, if we aren’t allowed to see it?
    How do you know, come to that?
    Maybe heresy is simply what Non-Moderators think.
    …And maybe not, of course.

  175. ginnyfree says:

    Bravo Jabba! Bravo! Well presented. Of course Robert will have is own interpretation of things as usual. Why should the facts dissuade him from his own spiritual path to perdition? Hell is a choice. Jesus, I choose You! God bless. Ginnyfree.

  176. ginnyfree says:

    Ah Raven, three at bats for Roger, and Three swings and misses. That means he’s struck out! But he won’t be laying down his bat I’m afraid. Good job. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  177. Robert says:

    [The Moderator – Rightly or wrongly, Roger I read your comment as suggesting that belief in Garabandal and other private revelations is necessary to salvation.]

  178. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, heresy is the persistent retention of that which must be rejected, among other things. Persistent disbelief can also be a symptom of the insidious disease of heresy. One other symptom is refusal to become docile when faced with correction or obligatory teachings. Persons who are heretics do not change their approach. They simply refuse to. They become defensive when challenged and generally ignore attempts to show them the error of their ways. Depending upon how invested they are in their particular heretical ways of seeing things, if you dialog with them, they will remain at a certain level of defensiveness yet remain confident of their errors and their justifications for them based upon how much they’ve invested in their particular group of errors. I say group because one error rarely stands alone. When one disbelieves a particular item, it distorts all the rest. Take for instance the Immaculate Conception of Mary. If she was born like the rest of us, then the flesh she gave her Savior was also sinful and so the sinless One, who is God had to have some degree of sin in Himself that needed to be expunged just after His Incarnation. This is only one little detail about how a rejection of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary warps the understanding of God in the mind and life of the person who rejects it. It leads to many errors both in faith and eventually morals as well. This is why the Church in her love for us little lambs tells us that there ARE things that must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, so that the whole fabric of our lives will remain intact. God loves us and His love for us is expressed in the way St. Peter, the first Pope and all those in Communion with him and his Sancta Sede all the way down thru the centuries to today and beyond all teach, preach and preserve all that is Holy, all that is true, all that is Catholic, all that is His that He gave unto the first Apostles who laid down their lives to make sure we in this current generation would have the same faith that Jesus entrusted to them.
    So, what does this mean to a heretic? Little other than a nagging reminder that they may not exactly be in Communion with the rest of the Church, living and dead and those who are seated with Jesus in Heaven as He said, the Church Triumphant. No, heresy works directly opposed to this work of preserving the Faith Jesus entrusted to us way back when. It endangers the future generations and that is why it gets addressed as has been the case all along. Heretics tend to know better than everyone sometimes. They get very well educated on what the Church teaches in some areas so they can refute it all and grow in self confidence regarding these their defenses as the years go by. Robert, you much more capable of defending the falsehoods of Garabandal than you used to be. And you’re showing a great deal of emotional involvement. That means you feel threatened by the truths that have been offered to you here. That means you know your position is flawed. That is the little tiny crack in the facade that the Mercy of God may be able to get in thru. I hope so. You need to give up all this nonsense and make a very good Confession about adhering to that which is easily proven false. This is not the first time you’ve defended this. It has been a part of your spiritual life for a while and it causes you to attack the Church and her leaders. Why don’t you see the mortal danger in that? Because the darkness the falls into the minds of those who accept error blinds them to the Light that is the sound teaching of the Church. You reject that consistently and don’t even blink when you do it. That is scarry. You should be very fearful of following something or someone who causes you to reject the Church in anything. Your poor soul is in grave danger. You need the Divine Mercy. I suggest you pray it. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  179. toadspittle says:

    Like I keep saying – Heresy is what the other chap says – not me.
    Same as with any media story.
    If we agree with it – it’s an excellent, unbiased, example of reporting.
    If we disagree, it’s a pack of unsubstantiated and despicable lies.

    (Hacks get used to all that.)

  180. JabbaPapa says:

    “But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”

    So, The Holy Spirit doesn’t know, either. Only one person knows.

    Oh !!

    Well spotted, dear Toad !!

    You’ve touched on one of the most obscure and difficult points of the Trinitarian Theology, which belongs to the causes of the Great Schism between East and West.

    The Three Persons of the Trinity are Distinct in Person, but They are One in Trinity.

    The Trinity has every Attribute of the Godhood, but the Persons of the Trinity have Attributes that do not belong to the other two Persons except in the Trinity and the Godhood and the Unicity themselves.

    The original 7th Century Latin text explaining this is exceedingly difficult, partly because it’s simply a bit badly written, but mostly because of its Late Latin Iberian dialect that is easily, and was historically, very prone to mistranslation.

  181. JabbaPapa says:

    Robert, heresy is the persistent retention of that which must be rejected, among other things. Persistent disbelief can also be a symptom of the insidious disease of heresy. One other symptom is refusal to become docile when faced with correction or obligatory teachings. Persons who are heretics do not change their approach. They simply refuse to. They become defensive when challenged and generally ignore attempts to show them the error of their ways.

    Yes, ginny — I most certainly do not agree with all of your interventions, but here you have re-stated exact Catholic Dogma.

  182. Robert says:

    Moderator

    No if you read what I have said is there is a difference between Revelation and Prophecy. There have always been and always will be Prophets, .
    Public Revelation ended with the death of the Last Apostle.
    .
    John 14:26
    But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

    Now neither the Immaculate Conception nor the Assumption of Our Lady are found in the New Testament.

    But the Church and the altars are replete with Devotions revealed to the Church and acted upon such as The Sacred Heart etc.. etc.. The numerous title Of Our Lord and Our Lady the great Doctors of the Church, etc. etc..

    What then is the role of the Prophets if not to Prophesy (which isn’t revelation). Fatima prophesied the End of World War One and World War two.

    Pope Pius XII obeyed Heaven for instance when He consecrated the World to the Immaculate Heart Of Mary. Also the Dogma of the Assumption.

    You have just deleted John 6 verses 35 onwards as Heresy.

    [The Moderator – No, Roger, I have deleted your second comment because you prefaced it by repeating a part of your original comment and to explain to you why the first comment was deleted.]

    Moreover three times I provided a direct reference to John Paul II’s written command to promulgate the message

    Pope John Paul II. He later asked his secretary, Fr. (now Archbishop) Stanislaus Dziwisz, to write to the author. In the subsequent printing (2000) of the book, on page 19, a portion of the Pope’s message is reprinted, as follows:
    “May God reward you for everything. Especially for the deep love with which you are making the events connected with Garabandal more widely known. May the Message of the Mother of God find an entrance into hearts before it is too late. As an expression of joy and gratitude, the Holy Fa­ther gives you his apostolic blessing.”

    Weber writes, “From the attached greeting in the Pope’s own handwriting, with his signature, it is clear how deep an interest he has in the events of Garabandal, and how anxious he is that they should be made known in a credible way.”

    HOW ANXIOUS JOHN PAUL II THAT THE EVENTS OF GARABANDAL SHOULD BE MADE KNOWN IN A CREDITABLE WAY.

    Thats the fourth time that I have displayed the above.
    The Pope and only the Pope has the Authority and duty to determine what the Sheep need to know.

    I defend the Papacy, I defend Public Revelation and defend Authentic Prophesy in what way is this Heresy?

  183. Robert says:

    I think this is very important and implicit in the Blog

    Pope John Paul II in writing sent to an Author on Garabandal! Think why did John Paul II apparently leapfrog the Curia!!! Because He before God must feed the Sheep! Before the rest!
    His words “..Garabandal more widely known. May the Message of the Mother of God find an entrance into hearts before it is too late. ”

    What message? Do not get sidetracked into opinions including that of seers.
    The two key messages I have already copied above.
    JOHN PAUL message “BEFORE IT IS TO LATE” and remember when this was written the third secret of Fatima was being published!
    Here is a Pope telling you “BEFORE IT IS TO LATE”

    The End Of The World Wasn’t Mentioned by Our Lady.
    The End of Time (but what time 20 th century? Satans 100 years?) We Don’t Know!
    Quantum leaps and Quantum opinions which are just smoke screen !

  184. JabbaPapa says:

    Public Revelation ended with the death of the Last Apostle

    No, the Revelation is the Logos, and He resides in Heaven.

    Revelation is the Living Word of God, not dead letter.

    What then is the role of the Prophets if not to Prophesy (which isn’t revelation)

    To even ask such a question constitutes Heresy.

    Prophecy is to be the vehicle of the Living Word — to reduce it solely to some dubious claims about future events is objective and material Heresy.

    You have just deleted John 6 verses 35 onwards as Heresy

    That is a false statement.

    Moreover three times I provided a direct reference to John Paul II’s written command to promulgate the message

    No such “command” exists, so that three times you have repeated a lie.

    He later asked his secretary, Fr. (now Archbishop) Stanislaus Dziwisz, to write to the author

    This is therefore, at best, a message of Bishop Dziwisz.

    Weber writes, “From the attached greeting in the Pope’s own handwriting, with his signature, it is clear how deep an interest he has in the events of Garabandal, and how anxious he is that they should be made known in a credible way.”

    This is an extremely dubious statement, and in accordance with the clear teaching of the Fifth Lateran Council, I urge you to reject it, as I do.

    HOW ANXIOUS JOHN PAUL II THAT THE EVENTS OF GARABANDAL SHOULD BE MADE KNOWN IN A CREDITABLE WAY

    No evidence whatsoever exists of any such thing regardless of your tediously repetitious ranting on about this extremely dubious claim.

    The Pope and only the Pope has the Authority and duty to determine what the Sheep need to know

    Heresy.

    You falsely ascribe a Divine Attribute to the Roman Pontiff.

  185. JabbaPapa says:

    You have just deleted John 6 verses 35 onwards as Heresy

    {6:71} Jesus answered them: “Have I not chosen you twelve? And yet one among you is a devil.”
    {6:72} Now he was speaking about Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. For this one, even though he was one of the twelve, was about to betray him.

  186. Robert says:

    “The Catholic Church teaches that public revelation was completed, and therefore was concluded, with the death of the last apostle (Vatican II, Dei Verbum 4)”

  187. Robert says:

    Catholic Encyclopedia
    “.. That the gift of private prophecy exists in the Church is clear from Scripture and the acts of canonization of the saints in every age. ..”

    “..As the term is used in mystical theology, it applies both to the prophecies of canonical Scripture and to private prophecies. Understood in its strict sense, it means the foreknowledge of future events, though it may sometimes apply to past events of which there is no memory, and to present hidden things which cannot be known by the natural light of reason. St. Paul, speaking of prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14, does not confine its meaning to predictions of future events, but includes under it Divine inspirations concerning what is secret, whether future or not. As, however, the manifestation of hidden present mysteries or past events comes under revelation, we have here to understand by prophecy what is in its strict and proper sense, namely the revelation of future events. Prophecy consists in knowledge and in the manifestation of what is known. The knowledge must be supernatural and infused by God because it concerns things beyond the natural power of created intelligence; and the knowledge must be manifested either by words or signs, because the gift of prophecy is given primarily for the good of others, and hence needs to be manifested. It is a Divine light by which God reveals things concerning the unknown future and by which these things are in some way represented to the mind of the prophet, whose duty it is to manifest them to others ..”

  188. Robert says:

    Mathew 16
    [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

    Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error “When, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority

    John Paul expressly used the word APOSTOLIC
    John Paul was known for His Love of Our Lady! It is impossible that He would recommend a banned shrine!

    “May God reward you for everything. Especially for the deep love with which you are making the events connected with Garabandal more widely known. May the Message of the Mother of God find an entrance into hearts before it is too late. As an expression of joy and gratitude, the Holy Fa­ther gives you his apostolic blessing.”

  189. The Raven says:

    Roger

    The doctrine of papal infallibility doesn’t work like that – statements of a reigning pontiff are only to be regarded as infallible if they are clearly, unambiguously stated to be such in the Pope’s public teaching – a statement in a private letter is no more infallible than an off-the-cuff remark to a journalist on a plane.

    Even if the claims made for this letter are true (and you can count me among those as being deeply sceptical on that point) it does not count as part of the public teaching of Pope St John Paul II and has no magisterial authority.

  190. JabbaPapa says:

    “The Catholic Church teaches that public revelation was completed, and therefore was concluded, with the death of the last apostle (Vatican II, Dei Verbum 4)”

    Not in my copy — Dei Verbum 4 : Jesus Christ, therefore, the Word made flesh, was sent as “a man to men.” He “speaks the words of God” (John 3;34), and completes the work of salvation which His Father gave Him to do (see John 5:36; John 17:4). To see Jesus is to see His Father (John 14:9). For this reason Jesus perfected revelation by fulfilling it through his whole work of making Himself present and manifesting Himself: through His words and deeds, His signs and wonders, but especially through His death and glorious resurrection from the dead and final sending of the Spirit of truth. Moreover He confirmed with divine testimony what revelation proclaimed, that God is with us to free us from the darkness of sin and death, and to raise us up to life eternal.

  191. JabbaPapa says:

    Catechism of the Catholic Church 50 By natural reason man can know God with certainty, on the basis of his works. But there is another order of knowledge, which man cannot possibly arrive at by his own powers: the order of divine Revelation. Through an utterly free decision, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. This he does by revealing the mystery, his plan of loving goodness, formed from all eternity in Christ, for the benefit of all men. God has fully revealed this plan by sending us his beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

    67 Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

    The Christ and the Revelation are One — there is no “new” Revelation, because there is no “new” Christ.

    The Church teaches, properly, that we “do not expect” new public revelations, which does NOT mean that public revelation ended with the last Apostle, because the Revelation is the Christ and the Christ does not “end”.

    Meanwhile, such things as are claimed of Garabandal remain formally condemned by the Church.

    I concur with the Raven in believing not a jot that the words you have quoted were written by Pope John Paul II, whereas YOU, Robert, are willfully persisting, to the peril of your soul, in your rejection in this matter of the clearest possible Church teachings against such false “revelations”.

  192. toadspittle says:

    “Satans 100 years?”
    Indeed, Robot, Fascinating, although incomprehensible (to me) idea.
    I’ve only read about this notion in the last few days.
    As I dimly understand it, God gave Satan a hundred years start – just about a century ago – to do his wicked stuff unchecked. Or so some pope said.
    …Which is why we have Vat 2, and no altar rails, but we do have altar girls, Pope Francis and adulterers taking communion like decent, God-fearing folk.
    God’s thinking (apparently,) was like giving someone a hundred break in snooker. To make the game more interesting. Or, if we like, a knight and a bishop in chess.

    Why would God do such a thing? ? Weren’t things on Earth rotten enough, anyway?
    ….Are we supposed to thank Him for this gesture?
    Or have I got all this all wrong?
    If so, I will be swiftly disabused.

  193. Robert says:

    Raven

    The letter has been seen and attested to.
    Weber writes, “From the attached greeting in the Pope’s own handwriting, with his signature, it is clear how deep an interest he has in the events of Garabandal, and how anxious he is that they should be made known in a credible way.

    You are wrong about papal infallibility by the way its not without precedent. Its highly unusual but not unprecedented. John Paul II did give his Authority that Garabandal should be made known. What would occasion this? Well the evidence of tampering with messages and clerical pressure on the children for one thing! The message of St Michael was changed!

    “As my Message of the 18th of October has not been complied with, and as it has not been made known to the world, I am telling you that this is the last one. Previously, the Cup was filling; now, it is brimming over. Many priests are following the road to perdition, and with them they are taking many more souls. Ever less importance is being given to the Holy Eucharist. We should turn the wrath of God away from us by our own efforts. If you ask His forgiveness with a sincere heart. He will pardon you. I, your Mother, through the intercession of St. Michael the Archangel, wish to tell you that you should make amends. You are now being given the last warnings. I love you very much, and I do not want your condemnation. Ask Us sincerely and We shall grant your plea. You must make more sacrifices. Reflect on the Passion of Jesus.

    The second message caused particular controversy when it was revealed that Conchita had actually written “many cardinals, many bishops and many priests are following the road to perdition.””

    Heaven used Children at La Salette, Lourdes, Fatima and Garabandal? Children who can be trusted to repeat without necessarily understanding the messages given to them.

    As for the what 3 or 4 after this one? Look at the article you have blogged on a New kind of Papacy! Previous there was just one now there are two concurrent? I am sure at some point that connundrum will be either explained or become clear.

    We do not live in normal times. We live in an Age which is Anti of Christ and has enacted global Laws that are contrary to the Faith.

    There has never been a time when God has not used Prophets by the way!

  194. toadspittle says:

    “We do not live in normal times.”
    When did we ever, Robgert?
    Was it during the ages when Christians were cheerfully hanging , drawing and quartering one another over “differences of opinion”?

    Since when did anyone ever live in “normal times,” in the entire history of the world?
    …I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

    “I am sure at some point that connundrum will be either explained or become clear.”
    Both, maybe.
    …If that’s not too much to ask.

  195. Robert says:

    Jabba
    Public revelation is what we have in Scripture and It was completed, finished, when the last Apostle died and the New Testament was finished. So there is no more until Christ returns at the end.
    Why are you are denying this? What other Books are there that are Public Revelation?

    The two pillars of the Faith Sacred Tradition and the Bible.

    Your words
    “Meanwhile, such things as are claimed of Garabandal remain formally condemned by the Church.”

    WHAT things have been condemned?
    Don’t tell me the End Of The World because Conchita denied by that this was said!
    So what things!! You who claim to be so knowledgeable?
    What do you know that Pope John Paul didn’t Know? What do you know that POpe Paul VI (and he read them ) didn’t know?

    Its true you do not have to believe in any private revelation. However the Fatima Miracle is at the level of the Old Testament and so are the three outstanding events fortold at Garabandal!

  196. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, regards these alleged comments by St. John Paul II – YOU HAVE YET TO PROVIDE VERIFIABLE LINKS TO PROOFS OF HIS WORDS. You haven’t provided the title of a published book in which these words can be found, nor have you actually provided a verifiable copy of said text in a PDF or screenshot that shows it is a real document actually signed by said Pope. Nothing. Why? You’ve been asked but refuse to do so. I’m guessing that is because the ONLY place you can find such statements is at a place called www garabandal org where tons of lies get told over and over and over again. So, what can I say? I like my baloney on a bun with mayo and some nice chips on the side. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  197. Brother Burrito says:

    Fascination with the end of the world occurs when people are traumatised. I know this because after my tiny daughter died all I could think of was apocalypses. We live in traumatic times, and the news-feeds are full of horrors every minute of every day.

    I think the only solution is for people to take some time out, reconnect with the God-given beauty of nature, pray in solitude and chill out. The end of the world is definitely coming but only God knows when. It is His business alone. Let us trust Him with it and be good little Christ-like creatures in the meantime.

  198. ginnyfree says:

    Robert:”The letter has been seen and attested to.
    Weber writes, “From the attached greeting in the Pope’s own handwriting, with his signature, it is clear how deep an interest he has in the events of Garabandal, and how anxious he is that they should be made known in a credible way.” Now let’s get this clear: Robert is talking about a man by the name of Weber who is claiming to have seen a letter containing a GREETING allegedly written by St. John Paul II and even SIGNED by him!!!!! Well now, this means the we have to take Robert’s word on Weber’s word that what Weber had at one time was a piece of paper the he claims was written by the Pope as a “greeting” and then this Weber guy claims in this note, the Pope is actually encouraging something everyone else claims has been condemned.

    Now, I’m going to point out something VERY OBVIOUS ROBERT, SO PAY ATTENTION: IF this document exists and it DOES what Robert and many others claim it does, that is PROVE BEYOND A DOUBT THAT ST. JOHN PAUL II APPROVED OF AND SUPPORTED THE GARABANDAL MOVEMENT, then this proof document would be all over the Internet and available for ready perusal at the drop of the hat. Everyone would be eager to rub our noses in it and would plaster it all over the screens of us skeptics whenever the subject came up. Well, where is it? Why isn’t is available for perusal? Robert, it isn’t because it is a fraud perpetrated for the gullible by the deceitful.

    God bless. Ginnyfree.

  199. The Raven says:

    The letter has been seen and attested to.

    By whom? When?

    Weber writes

    So what? He had a book to sell, he is hardly an impartial source.

    You are wrong about papal infallibility by the way its not without precedent.

    It is entirely without precedent. Papal infallibility, as taught in Pastor Aeternus is simply not exercised willy-nilly in private letters:

    …we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

    See the bit in bold, Roger? As shepherd and teacher of all Christians, concerning faith or morals. Even if the letter is genuine and actually says what you represent if as saying, it does not touch on faith or morals and, as a private letter, it cannot be seeking to establish a doctrine to be held by the whole Church.

    John Paul II did give his Authority that Garabandal should be made known.

    No, he did not. We only have one man’s word for it.

    We do not live in normal times. We live in an Age which is Anti of Christ and has enacted global Laws that are contrary to the Faith.

    The anti-Christ is active alright, and seeking to drag good people down with false prophecies and enthusiasms, to turn them away from the truth that God has revealed. We know this, because He has told us:

    22:18 For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book.

  200. Brother Burrito says:

    Raven,

    When two nuts collide, what you get is a kernel panic.

    Yes this is a Linux joke, and yes I am an incurable geek. Mea culpa.

  201. johnhenrycn says:

    Asperger Syndrome comes to mind. I decline to say why.

  202. Brother Burrito says:

    I concur JH,

    but not in any way that renders me liable to legal action in any state where I may allegedly live etc.

  203. Brother Burrito says:

    I propose that the Christian thing to do is shut down further comments on this post.

    Do I have any seconders?

  204. Robert says:

    Hi Toad
    Well curiously talking of Popes
    https://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2016/05/24/one-is-simon-the-other-is-peter/#comment-63148

    You are actually right. Right from the time of the Apostles the mystery if iniquity
    2 Thessalonians 2:7
    For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way.

    Christ restores All things which man has losted through Sin until Man ends up in what is called the Messianic Kingdom not to be confused with Heaven of the beautific Vision. That is Man Body, spirit and soul.

    The Fathers of the Church believed that the Church (mystical Body Of Christ) would recreate His Life including His Passion Death and Resurrection. Now there is a implied promise that before the End of the World there will be One Faith over the world (The Triumph Of The Church). The Reign of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
    The Fathers also believed that Rome would one Day lose the Faith as did Jerusalem. This is why the 19th century and the imprisoning of the Popes in the Vatican (and La salette “Rome will lose the Faith and become the Seat of Anti Christ”) caused considerably alarm.
    The institution in the Vatican is broadly a reflection of the Imperial Roman Empire with its Pontiff and Western Nations etc.. I say Institution because the Jewish Institution in Jerusalem was different with its 12 tribes etc..
    The question is whether the Institution will remain in its present form in a Resurrected Church with one language and one Faith in the world?

    The Church is on route to Jerusalem ( St Augustine has Jerusalem and Babel, Augustine doesn’t say Rome and Babel!) Is this physical Jerusalem? Well Our Lord said that He would return as he had left . His Ascension was at Mount Olives Jerusalem.

    The significance of the Passion of the Church was in that revelation of the Fatima secret in 2000 and the killing of the Pope, priests, religious and laity and the Angels receiving their souls.

    Right now the fact is that the Faith in the west is dying out! call it an Apostacy if you like. At the same time the global Laws are in direct conflict with the Christian Faith. Which is another way of saying the Faith is being killed off by a secular world. Its nigh impossible to see the Triumph Of The Church in todays world!

    The Church is the mystical Body of Christ and His Kingdom isn’t of this world (fallen world) which means the Church is in the world but Not of the World! Its Truths are spiritual Truths. The idea of making the Church part of the world is to kill its spiritual Truths and replace these with worldy imitations.

    In other words without a global intervention (sic Warning) its nigh impossible to see how the Church could Triumph! This brings Us to Fatima and the Dance of The Sun ( an extrodinary Miracle) then only place I know off where a global intervention has been expressly Prophesied is Garabandal.

    The Illumination Of Consciences (known to St Edmund Campian) is this the Warning? The Miracle and the Permanent Sign?

    If Garabandal is of God then expect a torrent of abuse, contention, disbelief and condemnation in short a Satanic assualt. Incidently one way to kill a shrine is to commercialise it!!!

    Now to answer your normal times question. The Passion of the Church? Well it is the Ultimate reparation for Sin! The mystical Body offering itself to God in reparation of Sins of a Post Christian world! What greater Love can the Church show but to suffer the Passion of Our Lord to save poor sinners. Reparation for Sin is the norm for the Church and as such and in that sense this is the normality for these times.

  205. Robert says:

    I propose that the Christian thing to do is shut down further comments on this post.

    Do I have any seconders?

    I would second that!

  206. kathleen says:

    Hello everyone,

    I have been away (as some of you might know), both taking part on the amazing annual Chartres pilgrimage again, and then staying with different members of my family. Therefore I have only just now had a chance to catch up on all these comments made in my absence on this old article of mine. Wanting just to add a few points, I’ve asked my dear Team-mates to please open the comment section once more for a limited time so that I can make a sort of response to all that has been said recently on the subject of Garabandal.

    Contrary to what some have quoted here above, the Catholic Church has neither condemned the happenings at Garabandal between 1961 to 1965, nor has She prohibited pilgrims from visiting the village. With Her natural and very wise prudence for everything involving private revelations, the Church has (to put it in simple terms) only claimed that “nothing” the girls have reported the Virgin Mary supposedly said to them is “contrary to the doctrines and teaching of the Catholic Church”, but nor can it be proven (the meaning of “no consta”) that these same messages are of Divine origin. IOW – the matter is left open as to their provenance.
    That something out of the ordinary (“supernatural”?) occurred at Garabandal is evident. The behaviour of the girls when in ecstasy was clearly abnormal. Hundreds of first-hand witnesses swear to that, and we even have it on film.

    If the announced coming events (warning, miracle, chastisement) do not take place within Conchita’s lifetime (and she must be about 67 years old now), then it would appear that the girls were tricked by evil spirits, and the phenomenon of Garabandal will eventually fall into oblivion.

    It is true that the memory of their “visions” blurred considerably at one period in the girls soon afterwards, causing them to doubt they had ever occurred. (Much to their amazement, Our Lady told them this would happen; they found it hard to believe at the time!) However, later on they all had flash-backs remembering the events, sometimes more clearly, other times less so. Conchita stated that the one overriding memory that remained with her was that of the profound love and joy with which Our Lady’s presence filled her soul.

    Looking at the girls’ lives after the visions ceased is also important – “by their fruits, etc…”. Despite certain exaggerations about the girls, and even some untruths, it is a fact that they led (and lead) exemplary lives of prayer and service to their families. Mari Cruz (who had less visions than the other three) appears to have faded from the public eye since she married and moved away and not much is known about her anymore. Mari Loli, who married an American, died about eight years ago after a long agony, all of which she offered for the sanctification of priests and for sinners. Jacinta and Conchita, who also married Americans, live in the USA, although they return sometimes to Spain to visit their families. (I met Jacinta on one such a visit in 1996 – the one and only time I visited Garabandal.)

    Now for the big news: on the pilgrimage to Chartres I was very blessed to have met and talked at length to the well-known priest, Fr. George Roth (FI), who we have mentioned on our blog in the past, even once posting a video of one of his excellent homilies. Although Fr. Roth is currently based in Gosport (UK), he often travels and is in close contact with Conchita and all her family. He told me about her kindness, humility and holiness, and that of her grown ‘children’ too. He believes Conchita is absolutely sincere in everything she has recounted about the events that took place in those years in Garabandal, although she prefers to keep quiet about it all in perfect obedience to the Church’s mandate.
    I would say this is very telling!

    Finally, I must add that prudence is certainly the right way – the Church’s way – so to get really personally heated up about the validity of the visions at Garabandal (either for or against) is, IMO, misplaced. Whether the happenings in the little village of Garabandal are a fraud and a trick of the Devil’s…. or a remote spot that Our Blessed Lady truly visited at the time of the Council bringing messages (N.B. wholly Catholic ones, and warnings similar to those at Fatima), we shall just have to wait and see.

  207. ginnyfree says:

    Welcome back Kathleen! We missed you. You must be very spiritually charged up and refreshed in the spirit, but tired in the body. Did you locate the places where the missing muscles were? I usually do if a trip requires long periods of walking. Yeah. Bengay and hot packs help.
    I see that you remain devoted to Garabandal. This was, after all, YOUR article and all the comments it brought about are stunning. I’ve enjoyed discussing these things. I was not a visitor to this site when it was originally posted and I’m grateful that is made a comeback of sorts. It proved to be timely. In fact, if you type in Garabandal in the Google bubble, this blog spot comes up! So there are a few sets of eyes still perusing the varied opinions displayed here, which is always of benefit to those who value open discussion of relevant issues of the days we live in. Our current Holy Father is not shy at all about lifting lids off the many cans of worms we’ve accumulated over the millennia that our Church has been God’s instrument upon this earth. I’m not the only person to notice that worms lifted gingerly from a can, can be quite useful when fishing on the lazy banks of rivers. Who knows what may jump on the hook?
    Thanks very much for the opportunity to discuss these things. May the Mother of God bless you and all your loved ones abundantly in this year of Mercy that our Blessed Lord has seen fit to give us. God bless. Ginnyfree.

    P.S. About my snail mail address so you can FedEX my souvenirs from your pilgrimage……….

  208. mmvc says:

    Thank you so much, Kathleen, for this calm, well reasoned and balanced contribution to a long and at times unnecessarily acrimonious discussion. I was particularly upset by the suggestion that Robert (of all people, given his many sound and spiritually enlightening contributions to the blog!) was “on the road to perdition” and endangering his soul and those of others by voicing his belief in the apparitions. Presumably if the Church has not ruled either way on Garabandal, such accusations levelled at those inclined to believe in the phenomenon are completely unfounded and unjustified.

  209. kathleen says:

    Thank you for your kind words welcoming me back, Ginny.
    I’m afraid the only “souvenirs” I brought back from the wonderful pilgrimage to Chartres were the undeserved graces and spiritual sweetnesses received. Oh, and a few blisters, aches and muscle pains that soon wore off!🙂 All well worth while! I kept my word and prayed for the intentions of all our CP&S contributors and visitors.

    And thank you too, dear mmvc. The happenings at Garabandal are truly extraordinary. Like Robert, I also find it hard to understand how the Devil could have imparted such holy and theologically correct messages to the children that they then repeated afterwards, without once uttering a blasphemy. But you never know, so caution and obedience to the bishops’ orders is definitely the right way to proceed until (if ever) the prophesies occur.

  210. JabbaPapa says:

    Contrary to what some have quoted here above, the Catholic Church has neither condemned the happenings at Garabandal between 1961 to 1965, nor has She prohibited pilgrims from visiting the village.

    They have been formally condemned, and priests are prohibited from visiting the village without proper justification. Some priests flout this prohibition.

    That something out of the ordinary (“supernatural”?) occurred at Garabandal is evident.

    I’ve met Satan. He has supernatural powers and knowledge.

    These alone are not guarantors of Divine origin.

    Much to their amazement, Our Lady told them this would happen

    It is extremely dangerous to attribute any supernatural event to the Holy Virgin Saint Mary — I have *actually* seen her. And I have also met the Devil. Several other major miracles have occurred around my person. I am deeply convinced, as the “seers” themselves are BTW, that the events at Garabandal were of a diabolical origin.

    I apologise for using these facts in order to posit some authoritativeness in such matters, as the divine interventions I have received had no such purpose as far as I can tell, but I can most certainly urge you to avoid such exciting claims and pseudo-“revelations” as might issue forth out of the Garabandal or Medjugorje enthusiasts, because the only Revelation that matters pertains to Our Lord the Christ in His Eternal Instruction that Garabandal is frankly quite alien of.

    The Devil is pathetic — but he is at his most dangerous when he uses the truth as a method of telling a greater lie.

    John :

    {20:24} Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus arrived.
    {20:25} Therefore, the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I will see in his hands the mark of the nails and place my finger into the place of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
    {20:26} And after eight days, again his disciples were within, and Thomas was with them. Jesus arrived, though the doors had been closed, and he stood in their midst and said, “Peace to you.”
    {20:27} Next, he said to Thomas: “Look at my hands, and place your finger here; and bring your hand close, and place it at my side. And do not choose to be unbelieving, but faithful.”
    {20:28} Thomas responded and said to him, “My Lord and my God.”
    {20:29} Jesus said to him: “You have seen me, Thomas, so you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    That’s my story too.

    Do not believe the false prophecies of Garabandal or Medjugorje — they are alien to the simple Truth of the Eternal Revelation in our Lord the Christ through His and our Holy Catholic Church.

  211. JabbaPapa says:

    I’m thirding the proposal that this thread just be closed.

  212. kathleen says:

    Dear Jabba, I do not know what source you are using for your affirmations, but any Google search on the Catholuc Church’s current stance on Garabandal will tell you clearly that you are wrong in what you state. Garabandal has not been condemned, nor have priests been prohibited from visiting Garabandal. Here’s just one of many examples:

    “The Church’s TRUE Position
    Regarding Garabandal
    It’s time to set the record straight, once and for all
    by Geoffrey A. P. Groesbeck

    One of the most misunderstood matters regarding Garabandal is the Church’s true position on it. Opinion as to what it has been, is, or will be, has see-sawed relentlessly in the more than four decades since the apparitions began in the tiny hamlet of San Sebastian de Garabandal in northern Spain. There are those who are convinced the Church is disposed to look favourably upon it, as well as those who believe the opposite. And there is a large camp in the middle, uncertain as to which side to join. It is time to set the record straight, once and for all. Plainly put, these are the facts.

    The Church has not yet made any definitive pronouncement regarding Garabandal.

    Equally important, the Church has not, in any way, condemned it.

    http://www.ourlady.ca/info/churchPositionUpdate.html

    According to Fr George Roth, who is in close contact with Conchita, the girls do not deny the apparitions, nor do they opine on their provenance. They prefer to keep quiet on the matter in obedience to their bishops until further developments in the Church are made, while all the time living lives in complete accordance with the messages that they believe came from Our Lady.

    (Yes, I’m sorry, I should have said ^ above: “Much to their amazement, Our Lady apparently told them this would happen…” Or, IOW, that “they thought” they heard Our Lady say this.)

    I believe you when you state that you have “met Satan”. I know you speak the truth.
    I know you have been blessed with an out-of-the-blue miraculous vision of Our Blessed Mother.
    I know you are a totally honest man and that you do not lie.
    I also know that you are have only the good of others at heart when you bring all these warnings of Satanical activities to our notice.

    All I am saying is that in the case of Garabandal (that should not be linked with Medjurgorje by the way; they are two distinct cases) the supposed messages of Our Lady were all theologically and doctrinely sound and in accord with Catholic teaching (as the Church has recognised), and that the ‘seers’ have all led subsequently good and holy lives.

    We may even live long enough to find out (if the announced warning, miracle and chastisement really do take place) whether it was all a scam or not! Either way, it will not affect my faith in the least, and hopefully no other follower of Garabandal either – though this, I agree with you could be the danger for those who put too much store in apparition sites – for our trust should only be in Our Lord Jesus Christ and in all the commands and teachings of His Holy Bride, the Church.

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