26 Responses to Lisbon Patriarch’s Clarification on Women’s Ordination

  1. Wall Eyed Mr Whippy says:

    Well this is clear, eventually.

    Like

  2. mmvc says:

    Off topic: Michael Evans, Bishop of East Anglia, has died after a long illness.
    May he rest in the peace of Christ. Amen.

    Like

  3. Wall Eyed Mr Whippy says:

    Sorry to read this.
    Perhaps more might see this on Prayer Intentions?

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  4. mmvc says:

    Done, Mr Whippy. Thanks for the suggestion.

    Like

  5. Rebrites says:

    Thanks for clearing that up for us, Jose.
    Now all us virgin mothers will shuffle on back to the Youth Ministry and the kitchen and the prayer group and stop bothering those with Important Missions to achieve.

    Like

  6. toadspittle says:

    .
    “The inability to confer the apostolic priesthood on women through priestly ordination….”

    The jolly old Cardinal is weaseling a teeny bit here, thinks Toad. We all know it’s not a question of being “able” to make women priests, several religions in fact already do. So could the Catholics if they wanted.
    Women priests are not a physical impossibility. We can all imagine a woman priest.

    The Catholics just don’t want women priests. They may be right not to. They may be wrong. But let’s be honest.

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  7. piliersdelaterre says:

    Bless Bishop Michael Evans, ‘our’ bishop here in Norwich.

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  8. Gertrude says:

    We can all imagine a woman priest.

    No Toad – we can’t!

    I remember this conversation in another place (I seem to remember it was Malcolm enthusing about a lady vicar ‘looking quite fetching’).

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  9. Wall Eyed Mr Whippy says:

    “The jolly old cardinal is weaseling a teeny bit here”, sez Toad, later followed by “let’s be honest”.

    Does this mean a “teeny bit” or much, much more? – like a helluva lot?

    Let’s be honest.

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  10. Wall Eyed Mr Whippy says:

    This post of mine above is unfair and no bl***y good. I’m always digging holes for myself.

    And so I say…..De profundis.

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  11. Wall Eyed Mr Whippy says:

    Toad says “we can all imagine a woman priest”.

    Hoo-arr! – I’ll say so!

    The unspeakable in pursuit of the unattainable – that’s me!

    Like

  12. toadspittle says:

    .
    Gertrude says “we can’t” imagine a woman priest. Not sure who “we” is, but Toad can, and he’s not very imaginative.
    Then, G. shoots herself in the foot a teeny bit, by mentioning a ‘fetching’ lady Anglican vicar. We can all imagine that, can’t we?

    (Yes, but that’s not a Catholic priest, is it Toad!)

    Maybe Gertrude and Toad and some others of us should start taking imagining lessons. Add ‘women priests’ to the list of six impossible things to believe before breakfast, maybe?

    And… the picturesque old Portugese Prelate rather oddly goes on to cite:

    “…the Holy Father Benedict XVI acknowledges that, in the testimony of the Resurrection, in the confessional tradition, there is reference only to men, perhaps because in the Jewish tradition only men were accepted as witnesses in a court; the testimony of women was not considered credible.”

    This would seem to shoot the Cardinal’s own case in the foot a teeny bit as well, since nowadays women are not only accepted as ‘credible witnesses’ but are also often actually judges in courts themselves.
    Which would seem to open the possibility of women priests to consideration, at least.
    If we are still going to take ‘the Jewish tradition’ as a yardstick, we are in real trouble. Thinks Toad.

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  13. The Raven says:

    Well, Toad, one does rather get the impression that the Cardinal’s heart isn’t really in this one: I suspect him of spending long periods imagining lady-priestesses.

    The plain fact is that the Church does not believe that it has the authority to confer sacerdotal ordination on ladies (or even “women”), because our Founder decided himself not to call the gals to the apostolate (and, let’s face it, He wasn’t in the least bit shy about transgressing societal norms). Now, if only we can get the Church to follow Our Lord a bit more closely in other things too, we can all be contented.

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  14. Mr Badger says:

    Raven,
    Jesus clearly did not call “gals” (as you so charmingly say) to the apostolate. And yet it is surely fair to ask for a clear and concise explanation as to why a woman cannot be a priest. — And it should go without saying that “it has always been thus” is of no relevance whatsoever.

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  15. Mr Badger says:

    Well, Toad, one does rather get the impression that the Cardinal’s heart isn’t really in this one: I suspect him of spending long periods imagining lady-priestesses.

    Of course his heart isn’t in it it, he isn’t stupid, but then again he isn’t a fool, and lines must be towed. What to make of the term “lady priestess” ? Best to say nothing I think, it speaks volumes all by its sneering self.

    Like

  16. toadspittle says:

    .
    Odd, no women hopping in on this topic so far? Still, early days yet.

    The concept of a shatterproof stained-glass ceiling is interesting, as other such ceilings are at least being cracked a bit.

    Toad has no axe to grind here, although he does strongly believe that, in general, women exhibit the qualities we appreciate in a pastor more than do men: decency, compassion, sympathy, understanding, selflessness, humility, lack of vanity etc., and, importantly nowadays, are far less likely to get into sexual trouble.

    Generally, mind. There will be exceptions, to be sure.

    We are on very dangerous ground here, Toad is delighted to see..

    Like

  17. Wall Eyed Mr Whippy says:

    Hmmm, yes…
    They would indeed make fine priests, and I recognise their ability to delegate. For example, I sometimes hear the words, “Wouldn’t it be nice to have a barbecue?” My heart sinks because this means that I will stand for ages in a cloud of choking fumes, turning sausages which others will tuck into while I am making the next batch, and all the while my clothes are being impregnated by stinking smoke which lingers for hours. Let them eat takeaway pizza, I say.

    However, if a priestly blessing and a sprinkle of holy water were to accompany the ‘great’ idea of a barbecue, then this might recompense.

    Might

    Toad sweettalking the women is interesting, “although he does ‘strongly’ believe” etc.
    What’s
    he
    up
    to?

    Perhaps he has been told.

    .

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  18. Wall Eyed Mr Whippy says:

    Mr Badger……not towed, nor toad, but toed.

    Excuse me.

    .

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  19. kathleen says:

    Toad,
    It is very nice of you to credit women as displaying those qualities you mention to a greater degree than men. Is that really your opinion, or do you just want to get into our good books 😉 ? (It’s very strange, but it seems to me as if it is often men, rather than women, who are in favour of women priests!)

    In my opinion men are just as likely to have these worthy attributes, plus one which is not credited to all women unfortunately….. that of being able to keep a secret!! (That is of course of vital importance in the Sacrament of Confession.)

    Symbolism is also very important. We often refer to the Church as our Mother. Jesus Christ (male) is ‘wed’ to the Church (female). The holy priesthood therefore has to be masculine. Priests are taking on the role of Jesus in the world. Bl Pope John Paul II spoke at length on the subject and concluded that the matter was closed.

    I am completely happy with that decision. I often wonder if those women who aren’t have some sort of chip on their shoulder, or some underlying frustration and find an outlet in screaming for women priests. There are many amazing women in the world today, who have made incredible achievements – Mother Angelica of EWTN comes to mind – who have not needed to disobey Church teaching to do so.

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  20. toadspittle says:

    .
    Toad does not do much “sweet-talking·” – as can be clearly seen on here.

    Why on earth should he want to get into anybody’s (God’s presumably) ‘good books’?
    Few thousand years less in Llimbo, perhaps? ( he’s just kidding – he knows that Limbo’s not real – never reallly thought it was, even when he was being beaten for suggesting that it wasn’t!)

    He’s not suggesting women are ‘better’ than men’ in some fundamental way, but simply that they see things in a different, less agressive, more constructive way, mostly.
    Or so he thinks. Idiot.
    And they are less fond or war and sex than men. Which matters.

    But Toad’s probably wrong, as usual, and men are actually the bees’ knees at everything.

    Popes especially.

    Tempi cambi, or so they say. Toad remembers, as a smallish boy in the early 1950’s, being assured by Father Sidney Cox, (alias Slippery Sid, to Form Four B) that the Mass was always said in Latin – always had been – and always would be.
    “Why,” we asked. “Because, anywhere in the world, when you attend mass – (which you will, if you do not fancy roasting in Hell for all eternity) – and no matter what language the people locally speak, you will confidently not be able to understand one word of it, and neither will anyone else in the congregation.
    That’s why it’s called Catholic. Means ‘universal.'”

    (Toad might just have got the last bit from Father Sid slightly wrong.)

    So, things can, and do, change.
    And just might.
    But then again, who knows?

    But the Jesuits are right- we, none of us, never forget what we are told.

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  21. Mr Badger says:

    Mr Badger……not towed, nor toad, but toed.

    Once again I regret that wordpress won’t let you edit comments once they’re posted. 🙂

    [the Raven – that can be changed, but you have to volunteer to write some posts first!]

    Like

  22. The Raven says:

    Really, Badger!

    The plain fact is that Our Lord (being God ‘n’ all) chose not to call women. He had His reasons, who are we to gainsay Him? Can we really claim to know better than Him? (and let’s face it, he was not averse to the company of gals, as I so charmingly say, so a charge of misogyny really can’t lie against Him, and He really, really didn’t care for human foibles and manners, so the old arguments about “fitting in with His times” are really just so much stuff).

    Like

  23. Mr Badger says:

    The plain fact is that Our Lord (being God ‘n’ all) chose not to call women. He had His reasons, who are we to gainsay Him? Can we really claim to know better than Him? (and let’s face it, he was not averse to the company of gals, as I so charmingly say, so a charge of misogyny really can’t lie against Him, and He really, really didn’t care for human foibles and manners, so the old arguments about “fitting in with His times” are really just so much stuff).

    Raven,
    I agree with you that the arguments about “fitting in with the time” are inadequate. And I’ll also agree that a position which takes disagreeing with Christ as its starting point has no place in Christian thought. But it strikes me that the issue breaks down into three parts: the position of the Church; the intentions of Jesus, and the rational defence of the position as a moral norm. Now I think the Catholic Church has made her view clear (so shut up then!! one might say), but lets press on.
    As to The plain fact is that Our Lord (being God ‘n’ all) chose not to call women it depends what we mean by “call”, he called 12 men to a very particular role. He called all humanity to follow him. The question is who did he call to exercise the priestly office? Certainly the answer to that question can’t be simply decided by scanning the membership of the apostolic college. Nor can it be decided by the mere fact that the priesthood has always been exercised by men (that is what would we would expect even if it was a culturally conditioned decision. It can be decided by the ruling of the Church we might say — well fine — but with no direct ruling from Jesus it is reasonable to ask for an argument independent of Church history, and independent of revelation (which is arguably silent on this). So a natural law argument perhaps. — And yet there seems to be an unwillingness to make a compelling case, where’s the beef?

    Like

  24. Mr Badger says:

    I have no desire for the Church to suddenly start ordaining women, I think that it would cause disruption and scandalise many of the faithful, I think it would increase the chance of serious schism, and weaken the solidarity of a Church already under stress. But I think the case for the status quo as currently presented is far from compelling. And this I find disturbing whenever the issue comes up.

    Like

  25. Wall Eyed Mr Whippy says:

    Toad sez he’s not saying women are better than men. But he did! It’s there, in his post!

    Oooooh!

    Like

  26. Mr Badger says:

    Toad sez he’s not saying women are better than men. But he did! It’s there, in his post!

    Well women simply are better than men in my experience. And I’m sure my wife would agree. (yes, she’s nodding as I write this). Case closed

    Like

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