SSPX answer without answering

Bernard FellayA text reached the Vatican from the Society of St. Pius X: a document not a response. Meanwhile, in France the hard anti-Roman wing is on the rise

Andrea Tornielli
Vatican city

It was expected these days, and the Lefebvrists’ answer to the “doctrinal preamble” proposed by the Vatican has just arrived. Except that the reply surprisingly gives no answer. Or at least it is not the answer that the Ecclesia Dei commission was expecting (positive, negative or requests for clarifications and the amendment of specific points of the text of the preamble). The text that came from the Fraternity will now be studied by a commission headed by Cardinal William Levada and Secretary Guido Pozzo.

As readers may recall, last September the Ecclesia Dei commission delivered into the hands of Bishop Fellay a doctrinal preamble, the result of talks between Lefebvrians and the Holy See. The preamble asked the bishop to accept it in view of the canonical recognition of the Society of Saint Pius X:  although Benedict XVI had lifted the excommunication of four bishops who had been consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre without a papal mandate, from a canonical point of view this conservative group is still in an irregular situation.

The preamble, which was never published, was not a “take it or leave it” text. The Holy See had foreseen the possibility for Lefebvrians to seek clarification and to propose further explanations. In essence, however, it could not be changed, since the Vatican asked that the Fraternity accept the “profession of faith” which is a prerequisite for anyone who takes on an assignment with the Church. This was the condition upon which the Lefebvrians could once again enter into relations with the Catholic Church, and a personal prelature dependent on the Pope was created for this purpose. The preamble also recognised that the Church’s Magisterium has the last word in doctrinal disputes.
Fellay, while failing to publish the (temporary)text  for the preamble, had however anticipated on at least two public occasions – an interview and a sermon – the difficulties that the Lefebvrians find with the preamble. He had stated plainly that the text as it stood could not be accepted. Many in and outside of Rome, considered the words of the superior as a sign of friction within the Fraternity: the Fellay line has in fact been subject to strong criticism and open dissent by superiors in various districts, who oppose the agreement with the Holy See.
A document has finally arrived, but it is not what the Vatican was expecting. This is because as sources explain, it is “a document”, and not a response. In short, it seems that Bishop Fellay is still biding time, deferring and avoiding taking a decision one way or another, or asking for clarification and possible changes to the text proposed by the Holy See.

In the meantime, uncontrolled rumors about the tensions within the Fraternity are increasing. A newsletter from the Virgo- Maria.org website speaks openly of the possibility that Fellay will be “removed” before July 2012 when positions within the Fraternity will need to be renewed. But the site is known for giving out unfounded information on other occasions.

Beyond the delirious statements contained in this newsletter that speaks of the “apostasy” of Rome and the Pope, it is undeniable that a strong internal dissent, contrary to the agreement with Rome, has grown in recent years in the

About Gertrude

Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium.
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33 Responses to SSPX answer without answering

  1. Glenn says:

    It’s difficult to know where to begin, as this post contains so many errors!
    Bp. Fellay has not failed to publish the DP, it is subject to negotiation and may not
    be made public. Andrea Tornielli’s source is a sedevacantist group with an interest
    to stir up trouble. ¨No news is better that silly news¨.

    Like

  2. JabbaPapa says:

    The remark, In essence, however, it could not be changed, is also inaccurate AFAIK.

    Like

  3. Pablo says:

    I spoke with a Priest within the Society this morning and his statement was pretty much like yours.

    Not an answer, just double talk.

    He mentioned the only one in the Society that speaks out publicly, and is fearless, is Bishop Williamson.

    His latest Eleison comments speak. clearly on the matter.

    Please do not crow about “delirious statements” or radicals, and so on.

    Some people are given Truth much father in advance than us super intellectual epitome of virtue holy rollers.

    My employees used to laugh at a “crazy guy’ and ridicule him behind his back because he would go on and on about concentration camps being built in the United States to house millions of citizens, ‘Traditional Priests’ first.

    A video of the camp in Indiana is found here: http://youtu.be/0P-hvPJPTi4

    Now we are aware there is one in Arizona, and another in Colorado Springs.

    Seems the only crazy ones were my former employees.

    Pray for the Holy Father, and all his Priests, Nuns, and Religious.

    *

    Like

  4. teresa says:

    Williamson is a Nazi. He has connections with the NPD party, the New Nazi Party in Germany, he even asked a NPD-member to be his lawyer and Bishop Fellay had to forbid him from doing this, under the pain of expelling him from the SSPX.

    When Williamson is not writing against the Jews, he can be quite funny, especially when he talks about women and children education, I used to laugh at him, but now I just despise him, having seen that quite a few of people were influenced by this obnoxious and yes very delirious man.

    The Holy Father said in his interview with Peter Seewald that Williamson is not even Catholic.

    SSPX is anti-Semitic to the core. A friend of mine talked with an SSPX padre with a high position and great responsibility in the SSPX. This SSPX priest has spoken like a conspiracy theoretician and Jew hater. (Yes exactly like a certain anti-semitic troll some of us know all too well.) My friend was so appalled that he never went there any more. His experience is quite revealing. Our priest of the Tridentine Mass group asked us never to have anything to do with them.

    The more I get to know SSPX, the less I like them. And yes, here we get a lot to do with them, actually, I know people who have dealt with their prior in Germany and I conversed once with the young man who was Williamson’s first lawyer after the affair of 2009. This young man is a supporter of Bishop Fellay, and he is O.K. but he had great trouble with Williamson and he opposed Williamson with resolution. But SSPX is split into too groups, and Williamson brought a lot of anti-Semitics and semi-Sedivacantists into SSPX and attracted Neo-Nazis, they support him and oppose the reconciliation with Rome.

    On the other hand, the general attitude of SSPX is anti-Semitic. If the head of their seminariy is an anti-Semitic, what would you otherwise await? Also their Prior Father Schmidberger, is not exactly a democrat. He is perhaps not an anti-semitic, but he is semi-fascistic.

    I am sorry if it upsets some of you but yes the more information I get about them, the less I like them. I don’t want to have any thing to do with the SSPX.

    Like

  5. Pablo says:

    Williamson is a Nazi.

    Thanks.I needed a good laugh.

    Are you always so melodramatic?

    What his Excellency is sadly, is British.

    I find them to be pains in the neck compared to me, a nobody stinky Mexican.

    May God our Lord in His infinite and supreme goodness be pleased to give us His abundant grace, that we may know His most holy will, and entirely fulfill it.

    Que Dios nos agarre confesados.

    *

    Like

  6. teresa says:

    Pablo, yes he is a Nazi. Nazi is a concept for political attitude not Nationality, please don’t confuse these two things. I am not melodramatic, I know the fact. I used to be interested in him and having collected information about him and SSPX for two years. The result: he is a Nazi. Sorry, but it is the fact.

    As a Mexican you are not informed about what is going on in Europe.

    Like

  7. Pablo says:

    Madam,

    I have both feet planted firmly on Tepeyac Hill.

    My mother, Nuestra Senora Santa Maria de Guadalupe appeared to another nobody stinky Mexican like me and even called him Jaunito.

    From here, I can see we are in much troubled times.

    It is my personal belief that since we are all sinners, God ignores this and still gives us graces and blessings.

    We are free to abuse them if we so desire.

    He grants them anyway, that at least some souls find salvation.

    The SSPX is like much of the rest of those in Holy Mother Church; they have greatly abused the graces God has given them.

    As for me mean mouthing anyone, I have done so to His Excellency Bishop Fellays face; I did not want him getting second hand information.

    As for Bishop Williamson, I met him everyday for two weeks, and found him to be an Englishman.

    I did not hold that against him. I found him to be a good Sheppard.

    As for his family and women things, some great girls follow his directions on womanhood and family. I was married to one of those submissive girls, and if I get to Heaven, it will be because she and our Mother dragged me through the front gates.

    I have and will again fight demons from Hell over her.

    God writes straight with crooked lines.

    Find in your heart to be submissive to our Divine Master, that He may cleanse your sweet heart of the treachery that lingers there.

    You all please quit calling me a holy roller know it all. I would let you call me by the name my wife knew me as, but polite company might find that ‘offensive’.

    Ave Maria, purissima!

    *

    Like

  8. teresa says:

    Pablo you have too much time on your hand, I have no interest to converse with you further. I have better things to do. You can’t change my opinions and just talk if you like to, I am not listening any more. As I said, I avoid people like you.
    Good bye.

    Like

  9. Pablo says:

    Madam,

    It is very tiring to speak with people of great virtue and who are above reproach.

    Those that consider themselves the only ones worthy of God’s grace.

    That’s why I enjoy conversing across the internet with you.

    While I believe you are a great woman, I do not believe you are a phoney.

    Other times and other places, things would be better for us both.

    As far as possible, I think I like you.

    Merry Christmas, Senora.

    *

    Like

  10. Gertrude says:

    In the light of your conversation below with Teresa, I took the trouble to look at your bishopwilliamson.blogspot.

    There are many in the Church who are praying for a solution to the problems that SSPX has with Rome. That we should become one is the prayer of many hearts. However, some of the opinions exzpressed on the site you linked to are neither charitable or true.

    We pray for Bishop Fellay, and the Holy Father in the steps that are being taken, but I have to say, some are not helping toward reconciliation. Williamson is a former Anglican who became Roman Catholic. It is doubtful that his orders are valid, and certainly his comments regarding our Jewish brothers and sisters is unacceptable and contrary to the expressed opinions of the Holy Father.

    I wish you peace at this Christmas time, and pray that you will, with charity, see the error of some of these statements made on your blogspot. In the meantime, I am removing the link lest others fall into error.

    Like

  11. Max K says:

    I have studied the SSPX/SSP卐 for many years. I nearly went to the Econe Consecrations in the late 1980s. I have acquaintances in this group.

    What Teresa writes is 100% true. They say that the Jews are the enemies of the Catholic Church. The Pope says that the Jews are our friends and our “elder brothers in the faith”. But as Teresa notes it is much deeper than this. They have Nazis in their ranks.

    Roy Schoemann (author of Salvation is From the Jews) has an analysis of their anti-Semitism. http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/sspx.html

    Also, be careful of debating with them on this. They play with words. Their idea of “anti-Semitism” is “against all semites” of the Middle East and not anti-Judaism as we normally define it.

    It is my belief that this Anti-Semitism/anti-Judaism is in large part what motivates them in their disdain for Nostra Aetate. (This, however, is pure speculation.)

    Like

  12. JabbaPapa says:

    Much of the congregation of the principal SSPX Church in Paris is composed of right-wing extremists ; and Sunday Mass is the occasion for them to peddle their neo-Nazi literature in front of the Church.

    Like

  13. Pablo says:

    Madam,

    Thank you for taking the trouble to view my blog.

    At least you viewed it and decided for yourself yea or nea.

    Please take a moment to see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0YQdLuMwHY

    It is the marriage of a beloved friend of mine.

    I admire her family, as they are the epitome of the Roman Catholic Family.

    It is something we should all strive for.

    God has granted us many graces, and we at times have abused those graces.

    I am amazed people would go to Mass and come out with convictions against those souls celebrating the Mass.

    I might disagree with some like these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMT1GuezOHM&feature=player_embedded#!

    I will admonish them, and pray Heaven convert them, but I will not spit poison on them.

    Pray God not abandon us to our sins.

    By the way, I’m glad some of you are not around while I am fist fighting a devil from Hell.

    It would be disheartening hearing cheers for him.

    May God our Lord in His infinite and supreme goodness be pleased to give us His abundant grace, that we may know His most holy will, and entirely fulfill it.

    Que Dios nos agarre confessados.

    *

    Like

  14. Toadspittle says:

    .
    “By the way, I’m glad some of you are not around while I am fist fighting a devil from Hell.”

    Nowhere near as glad as we are, Pablo.

    Like

  15. Wall Eyed Mr Whippy says:

    Pablo, disagreement is fine and healthy. But you seem to have gone off at the deep end here, and you’re not waving but drowning. You may be heading for a breakdown. All the devils are in your head – apart from those leafleting outside church.

    Get help.

    Like

  16. JabbaPapa says:

    That’s an unfriendly and unhelpful comment, Whippy, today especially.

    pablo is not a native English speaker, for which we should in all fairness make allowances.

    Second, the Devil certainly exists ; though thankfully his own more direct assaults against me personally were only very feeble ones. And prior to my Baptism.

    Only a very few of us are ever subjected to his more focused efforts, for which we can be extremely thankful to God and Christ and His angels ; but it is still VERY unhelpful to imagine that the Devil is just a psychological figment, and VERY unhelpful, indeed insulting, to suggest this notion in such an educated Catholic forum as this one.

    Like

  17. Jerry says:

    but it is still VERY unhelpful to imagine that the Devil is just a psychological figment, and VERY unhelpful, indeed insulting, to suggest this notion in such an educated Catholic forum as this one.

    Well Jabba I think Whippy makes a fair point. That it is necessary point out that those such as Pablo are almost certainly experiencing psychological rather than supernatural difficulties is disheartening in an ‘educated forum’.
    Simply acquiescing to the notion that someone who sadly believes themselves to be under assault from a supernatural villian — in fact is — is irresponsible. Especially in an anonymous forum. It is not a ‘useful’ procedure to presume that someone who thinks that they are the victim of diabolic assaults necessarily is. — The perfectly sensible probability of psychological explanations as raised by Whippy, would have to be eliminated first.

    Like

  18. Jerry says:

    necessary point out

    necessary TO point out.

    Hate it when I do that

    Like

  19. Toadspittle says:

    .

    True enough, Jerry.

    There’s no particular reason why sombody can’t be both a a Catholic and off their rocker.

    Like

  20. Toadspittle says:

    .
    ..somebody. Hate it when I do that.

    Like

  21. JabbaPapa says:

    Jerry,

    a) it is not “necessary” to point out these things in here, thank you very much, it’s just patronising

    b) you actually have no idea what pablo may be experiencing, nor indeed even talking about, and nor do I for that matter — because he could mean one of several completely different things

    c) I have no idea why you think that I am suggesting that pablo’s story should be simply agreed with uncritically — whereas in fact I was suggesting that Whippy’s obnoxious attack upon pablo was simultaneously extremely unpleasant, ignorant of whichever realities that pablo is engaged in, and unjustifiably denying the existence of the Devil

    Like

  22. Wall Eyed Mr Whippy says:

    Jabba

    My comment was intended to be clear, direct and helpful – I’d thank you not to interpret it in the offensive way you have. That Pablo is not a native speaker, I knew, and nothing I said depended on a level of language, which is why I wrote clearly.

    I know, and you know why you took the line you did with me. It has nothing to do with Pablo, who is in trouble.

    What did you say to possibly help him? You prefer to score silly points about the existence of devils rather than try to help this man.

    Like

  23. JabbaPapa says:

    Whippy, I have no particular ill-feeling against you, but you do post more comments that I might disagree with quite strongly, than any other member in here.

    Whatever “help” pablo may or may not need is unlikely to be provided by “armchair psychology”, particularly when it is utterly unclear what he meant by “fist fighting a devil from Hell”.

    Like

  24. Toadspittle says:

    ..

    What the devil is this fuss about?
    Bit more of the old yuletide spirit on here, please!
    Toad politely requests.

    Like

  25. Jerry says:

    particularly when it is utterly unclear what he meant by “fist fighting a devil from Hell”.

    Could the meaning of such a statement ever be clear? Perhaps he will expand on it. I suspect that won’t help clarify mattters.

    Bit more of the old yuletide spirit on here, please

    Dunno Toad, sounds a bit pagan.

    Like

  26. Pablo says:

    Salutations to you all.

    May you have enjoyed a joyous and happy Christmas.

    “Nowhere near as glad as we are, Pablo.”

    This is the most intelligent response so far to my comments.

    In regards to my comments, the hope was Christians, good ones, would see the need for prayer on behalf of the people I represent.

    We are a small group of those gathered together to extend the kingdom of Christ in our area of Holy Mother Church.

    Things have at times gotten very dangerous.

    Through death, we have lost some of the people that prayed the Holy Rosary on our behalf; may God keep them in His glory.

    At one point, I could have walked away, and enjoyed much comfort and luxury; I could have taken authority over others, and made them suffer the wrath of my ego.

    I turned the lucrative offers down and chose to live in poverty and fight the good fight.

    From time to time I call out to Christians, asking for aid in the spiritual warfare Church Militant is required to engage in.

    When I sit before the Mother Superior and her Nuns, the Padre and Cristero Nun I report to, and am asked what I did, how many times I did it, and if I had any help, the answer to the help part always seems to be “No”. (we are a group, but because of the myriad duties and responsibilities, we have to each act alone as part of the group).

    It is difficult to see how much the Devil moves about in our daily lives.

    Even the Bishop here in Phoenix where I reside is oblivious to the Freemasons that work in positions of authority in his Diocese office.

    He cannot see the devils sitting all around him.

    When someone suggests science as an answer or cure for anything, it demonstrates how far they have traveled from the cross of Jesus Christ.

    Recently, children that were medicated for ‘psychological’ problems, and had become violent, were taken off drugs and given tender loving care.

    They were cured.

    God allows science to keep busy all the people that are too smart for their own good.

    Please pray for those that are most in need of God’s mercy.

    I will pray God allow us all to become humble.

    Let us pray.

    Ineffable Creator, Who out of the treasures of Thy Wisdom hast appointed three hierarchies of Angels and set them in admirable order high above the heavens, and hast disposed the divers portions of the universe in such marvelous array, Thou Who art called the true source of Light and super eminent principle of Wisdom, be pleased to cast a beam of Thy radiance upon the darkness of my mind and dispel from me the double darkness of sin and ignorance in which I have been born.

    Adios.

    *

    Like

  27. Jerry says:

    Even the Bishop here in Phoenix where I reside is oblivious to the Freemasons that work in positions of authority in his Diocese office.

    The Free Masons are a harmless, and some what absurd club. The few I’ve know have reminded me of over-grown boy scouts. No need to worry Pablo, you aren’t living in the Da Vinci code, or the eighteenth century. Thanks for the good wishes

    Like

  28. JabbaPapa says:

    Thank you for your clarifications, pablo.

    Keep up with the prayer, not everyone has your charism. 🙂

    Like

  29. pablo says:

    “…The Free Masons are a harmless, and some what absurd club…”

    Stop it.

    This kind of remark is dangerous to the extreme.

    My comments were going to end with my last comment until this one came in.

    The Freemasons are a gruesome part of Satan’s kingdom, and include rituals too gruesome to describe; many people that are considered pillars of the community and above reproach are part of this evil empire.

    Do not discount Satan’s lament “Everyone knows how far I have fallen, but have no idea of how high I had ascended”

    I am not suggesting people research this group, just understand seventeen Popes have condemned it.

    The Holy Father does not condemn groups that are “harmless, and some what absurd clubs…”

    Please pray God not abandon us to our sins.

    The only thing that has kept us in the fight are the prayers of righteous women; God bless them.

    Que Dios nos agarre confessados.

    *

    Like

  30. rebrites says:

    My old grandad is a Scottish Rite mason of high degree. He is a working-class coal-miner father of 8 kids. He and his fellow Freemasons build houses for poor widows, and volunteer as Santa Claus and collect toys for the local Cerebral Palsy children´s home. They´ve been toiling at this insideous work for a good 40 years. So far no sign of an evil takeover of the church or diocese.
    By their fruits you shall know them.

    Like

  31. JabbaPapa says:

    Freemasonry is an extremely insidious enterprise, no matter that some individual freemasons may be perfectly honest, fine, decent, people.

    The basic tenets of freemasonry are not just incompatible with Christianity, but they are directly contrary to the basis of the Faith.

    It is not without reason that the Holy See warns us that no Catholic can be a freemason.

    Like

  32. Jerry says:

    Pablo gives the FreeMasons rather too much credit by suggesting that they are in league with satan. These days they are more likely to be in league with the local Rotary club.

    Like

  33. pablo says:

    Lucifer is the great Satan… he never will lose his status as an archangel,

    Angels move the Sun around the Earth, and hold each star in its place in the Heavens.

    Pray for the Holy Father is not a limp wristed statement.

    The Freemasons that surround him are ferocious.

    “to those that believe, no explanation is necessary; vice-versa.

    Ave Maria purissima!

    *

    Like

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