The Miracle of the Sun, 13th October 1917

On the 13th October 1917, 95 years ago today, the three children: Lucia 10, and her cousins Francisco 9 and Jacinta 7 – the little “seers” of Fatima – had to be protected and guided through a converging crowd of some 70.000, or more, that had gathered in the Cova da Iria in the hope of seeing a great miracle. There had been wide spread reports from some people who had been present at some of the little seers’ previous visions of Our Lady, and although none of these onlookers had presumably actually seen anything supernatural themselves, it was still widely believed that “something extraordinary” was taking place there at Fatima.

The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, 13th October 1917

The crowds were not disappointed: believers and non-believers alike were witnesses that day to the “miracle of the sun” as this first hand account from Dr. Jose Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal (one of the eyewitnesses at Fatima) recalls:

“It must have been 1:30 p.m. when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two metres above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time.

The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintry morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.

Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude, spread out in that vast space at my feet, turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun’s disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl.

During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of colour in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst colour. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same colour. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the colour of old yellow damask….

Then, suddenly, one heard a clamour, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.

All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena.

The children, on the other hand, were oblivious to this miracle of the sun. Their eyes were fixed on Our Blessed Lady who had appeared before them for the sixth time, as she had promised she would at her first apparition to them on 13th May 1917.  She asked for a chapel to be built there in her honour. She also exhorted them to continue to pray the Rosary every day, and then announced the prompt end of the war that was still raging, (WW1), and the return of the soldiers.

Lucia gave the Blessed Mother the petitions people had asked of her, to which Mary responded: “Some, yes; others, no. People must amend their lives and ask pardon for their sins.” Then, with sadness, she said: “Do not offend the Lord our God any more, for He is already too much offended.”

Rising into the air and opening her hands towards the sun, she pointed towards it, with light emanating from her hands. Lucia called out: “There she goes! There she goes!” although later she did not recall saying this. To the left of the sun the children saw St. Joseph with the Holy Child Jesus in his arms. Together they made the Sign of the Cross three times over the world. Our Lady, dressed in the blue and white robes of Our Lady of the Rosary, stood to the right of the sun. Lucia was given the privilege of seeing Our Blessed Lord, dressed in red as the Divine Redeemer, blessing the world. Beside Him stood Our Lady, now dressed in the purple robes of Our Lady of Sorrows. Finally, she appeared clothed in the simple brown robes of Mount Carmel.

What is the purpose of this miracle of the sun? Why did it occur?

The obvious answer to these questions can only be, “to give credit to all the messages the little seers had received from Our Lady”. The children had suffered greatly for being the channels of these messages. They had been scorned, beaten (in the case of Lucia), harassed unceasingly, and even imprisoned and cruelly threatened by the local atheistic authorities, to whom this whole ‘business’ was a great embarrassment. Yet they stoically held out that what they were seeing and hearing was the truth. The foretold miracle taking place on the day and place Our Lady had told them, can do no other than give credit to everything else she communicated to the children. She promised that many souls would be saved if they listened to her requests, and that war was a punishment for sin along with hunger, persecution of the Church, and persecution of the Holy Father. She reminded them of the Commands of God; she added nothing new but asserted many of the Church’s teachings (like that on Purgatory and the Communion of Saints) and renewed the urgency to follow Christ.

Mary also presented three secrets to the children called the Three Secrets at Fatima. The first was the request for the consecration of Russia, and of the world, by the Pope and all the bishops to the Immaculate Heart of Mary “in reparation for all the sacrileges, offenses and indifferences perpetrated against my Immaculate Heart”. She warned that if this was not carried out, “Russia will spread her errors throughout the world. Many nations will be annihilated. The Holy Father will have much to suffer.”

The second secret was the horrifying vision of Hell, where she said poor sinners would go. She asked for continual prayer and sacrifice to save souls from this fate. The children took this very seriously, dedicating every moment they could to carrying out this task.

The third and final secret of Fatima was the future attempt on the life of the Holy Father. As is well known, on 13th May 1981, the 64th anniversary of the first apparition of Our Lady at Fatima, this attempt on the life of Blessed Pope John Paul II took place. It is through the prayers and sacrifices of the millions who heeded the messages of Fatima that a fatal outcome of the shooting of the Holy Father was averted. Some years later Bl. John Paul II himself donated the attempted assassin’s bullet to the crown in the statue of Our Lady in Fatima.

Much has been written about Fatima and its prophecies and messages “from Heaven” to mankind through the three little seers. These messages reiterated everything already contained in the teachings, dogma and doctrine of the Catholic Church. They should therefore be seen as truly inspired teachings of Jesus, Son of God, Who said: “The Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.” (Jn 14:26) We should heed them.

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60 Responses to The Miracle of the Sun, 13th October 1917

  1. toadspittle says:

    .

    “All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance.”

    Well, bully for Professor Jose Maria.
    All Toad can say is that had he witnessed all those celestial marvels, he would have been exceedingly “emotionally disturbed.” Off his nut, probably.
    How could anyone remain “calm and serene” with the sun doing cartwheels above their heads? Whenever Toad sees the sun do that, he gets very excited.
    Who doesn’t?
    Toad thinks old Prof Jose’s, well, exagerating, just a bit.
    Or maybe, to be charitable, “misremembering.” Possibly.

    “The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.” What! And yet he remained “calm and serene”? Cripes.
    Doesn’t make sense. Thinks Toad. Who wasn’t there.

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  2. Dick Puhlir says:

    I am concerned that Dr Jose’s account inexplicably makes no mention of The Blessed Lady during this phenomenon, only something like a ‘large gaming table’ floating in the sky.

    That he is a professor means little to me – one of my profs at Uni, during seminars, had a selection of wind-up toys (one of which was obscene) and set them off to travel round the table till they whirred to a stop.

    I am sorry to read of the children being beaten by atheists.

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  3. kathleen says:

    Well, I’ve had a good giggle imagining our little green Toad turning various shades paler were he to have witnessed the Miracle of the Sun! The thing is, had he been there….. (surely he’s old enough to have been, didn’t he once say he was ‘as old as the hills’?)…. he would have seen it too! Everyone did – even the atheists – though some of the descriptions of the phenomenon varied slightly.
    Of course – as Toad well knows – Dr. Jose Maria’s intent in saying he was “in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance” is obviously to assure us that he was not drunk, on drugs, unbalanced, or suffering from any other type of psycho problem. According to all the accounts, everyone, even those most inclined to hysteria, seem to have recovered their calm again afterwards…. in spite of the fear and wonder they must have felt whilst the miracle was taking place. I bet the cynics who had come to gloat at the ‘gullible believers’ went away a bit narked though! 😉

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  4. kathleen says:

    Dick, Dr. Jose Maria’s account makes no mention of Our Blessed Lady, because neither he, nor any of the rest of the +70.000 crowd present that day, saw her. They only saw the miracle whilst the three little children, the visionaries, were blessed with their sixth visit from Our Lady. As it says in the article, the miracle, that had been foretold by the children in advance, was simply to give credit to their testimonies.

    I don’t think Lucia was beaten by the atheistic town dignitaries – though they threatened her with beatings and worse! – but by her own mother who could not believe the Blessed Virgin Mary would visit “the likes of you”!! (Lucia’s mother’s words to her daughter!) She changed completely after the miracle of the sun, and begged her daughter’s forgiveness for her former disbelief.

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  5. JessicaHof says:

    There were people there who went to mock – they did not report back that their hopes had been realised. The little Seers suffered much for their faith, and their visions have inspired many of us. I always pray the Fatima prayer when I pray my Rosary.

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  6. toadspittle says:

    .

    Toad’s metier is making people giggle, Kathleen.

    A few points, maybe for an outright guffaw:

    1: People see miracles because they want to. I’d like to see one myself.
    2: Why should, or does, God bother playing conjuring tricks with His creation?
    3: Assuming something supernatural actually did happen, (a rather big assume, to be sure) how can we know it was not the work of the Devil? Who is cunning. We are told.
    4: What earthly good came out of it all? What was the point of it?
    5: The good Professor assures us that he was not delusional, says Kathleen. But delusional people always think that, don’t they? It’s what delusion is all about.
    5: Excellent post! Fatima never fails to be fun!

    (Toad will guess at 2: Because He works in Mysterious Ways. Which might also do for 4. And 3, come to that.)

    And Toad didn’t say he was “as old as the hills,” merely that he was as old as the rocks amongst which he sits, and has died many more times than the Vampire. Quite a different thing.

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  7. toadspittle says:

    .

    “…a converging crowd of some 70.000, or more, that had gathered in the Cova da Iria in the hope of seeing a great miracle. “

    Says it all, really, doesn’t it? We see what we’d like to see. Didn’t come all this way for nothing, did we?

    And there’s bias to be considered. A Spurs fan and an Arsenal fan will watch the same game, but view it – and describe it – very differently.

    That’s enough Fatima for one morning. Off with dogs, then to Mass.

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  8. JabbaPapa says:

    1: People see miracles because they want to. I’d like to see one myself.

    You speak as someone who has never witnessed one, and as someone who has never had miracles thrown into their lap unasked for, and completely out of the blue.

    2: Why should, or does, God bother playing conjuring tricks with His creation?

    Well, most of the time He doesn’t, does He …

    3: Assuming something supernatural actually did happen, (a rather big assume, to be sure) how can we know it was not the work of the Devil? Who is cunning. We are told.

    There are ways, though they are complex, and spiritual in nature — and not really suitable for discussion in here.

    One point of consistency whenever the Devil acts is that he will systematically seek to deny this or that aspect of Revelation, and lead people into Error or Heresy or Rebellion or Apostasy.

    4: What earthly good came out of it all? What was the point of it?

    What “earthly” good ? bzzzzzt … wrong question !!!

    5: The good Professor assures us that he was not delusional, says Kathleen. But delusional people always think that, don’t they? It’s what delusion is all about.

    That line of questioning leads to an obvious dead end — are those claiming some sort of “mass delusion” delusional themselves ?

    Are you and I delusional ?

    Is reality itself the product of delusions ?

    These are all adolescent questions, unworthy of any serious attention.

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  9. rebrites says:

    The long-term spiritual benefits of the visitations, only God knows. But history says the dictatorship and local officials profited wonderfully from the apparitions. And now, all these years later, Portugal has its own shiny concrete-and-plastic Catholic Disneyland, complete with a “rodilladrome” pavement for those pious Chrisians who wish to make the rounds of the shrine on their knees.
    The apparitions and miracles may have been awesome in their time. But Fatima today is awful, a mix of superstition and souvenir stands.

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  10. toadspittle says:

    .
    “Why should, or does, God bother playing conjuring tricks with His creation?” asks Toad.
    “Well, most of the time He doesn’t, does He …” answers Jabba.

    And that’s the rub, innit, as the Beard of Avon would say. Because Fatima was not “most of the time” by anyone’s standards, was it?
    It might have been the world’s biggest example (who knows?) of mass hysteria. That, in itself, would make it a memorable marvel.
    But, if it was as the believers claim, miraculous, then why did God choose that particular day to disrupt his carefully organised and smoothly-functioning planetary system with some rather vulgar celestial gymnastics?

    However, thanks to Jabba for putting up a bold case. Though Toad must say his response to Question 3 is a bit of a cop-out. Why the devil not suitable? Isn’t that what we’re all about?

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  11. Dick Puhlir says:

    Kathleen amicably describes Toadkins (45) as being “as old as the hills”. Yet Jabbers decribes him as asking “adolescent questions”. It’s all very confusing.

    Jab’s post is I’m afraid, most unsatisfactory, consisting of rhetorical questions, mysterious reference to issues “not for discussion”, a dismissive “wrong question” assertion, an unsatisfactory “obvious dead-end” response and, I’m sorry to say, a derisive tone which is not helpful to Toad’s thoughtful post.

    I have not had a “miracle thrown into my lap” tho’ a cat has jumped there, and one could say a cat is a living miracle. I think of Blake’s “Tyger, Tyger…..what Immortal hand or eye, could frame thy fearful symmetry?” Jabs says that God doesn’t play conjuring tricks ” most of the time” – does He then play conjuring tricks some of the time? I don’t feel that God should be referred to as a part-time conjurer, dealing in illusion. There could be trouble ahead for that assertion at a Final Audit; I simply flag that up…

    Yet I feel instinctively that Jabbers has much to offer here, and I hope he will step forward and tell all, avoiding evasiveness and lofty disdain.

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  12. JabbaPapa says:

    Jab’s post is I’m afraid, most unsatisfactory

    I’m sure that you could enlighten everyone with some surefire methodological techniques for the answering of questions relating to the Ineffable in an effable manner ?

    a derisive tone which is not helpful to Toad’s thoughtful post

    bzzzzzt … it was an ironic tone not helpful to Toad’s sardonic post. Do keep up, old chap !!! :o)

    I have not had a “miracle thrown into my lap” tho’ a cat has jumped there, and one could say a cat is a living miracle

    Well, I certainly agree with you about a cat, but I can assure you that a miracle is even more irksome and independent-minded than that !!!

    Jabs says that God doesn’t play conjuring tricks ”most of the time”

    hmf !!! “conjuring trick” is somebody else’s phrase not mine, thank you very much !!!

    When even a crowd of thousands has difficulty explaining a miracle that they all witnessed together, it’s hard to see why you should expect one single man to be able to do any better than they…

    The Virgin is long of face, she has a nose with character, and hair that is both abundant and elegant. Her eyes are filled with both fierce wisdom and gentle innocence. The Love of God shines through her more brightly and more powerfully than any Sun.

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  13. kathleen says:

    For Jabba (re Toad & Dick):
    From the Book of Proverbs: “If a wise man contend with a fool, whether he be angry or laugh, he shall find no rest.” (29:9) 😉 😉

    No,…..OK Toad & Dick, no offense meant; I know you are not really ‘fools’ – in fact I’m pretty sure you are a lot cleverer than me – but by golly are you exasperatingly incredulous!!

    So, ignoring my own advice, here goes, I’ll try again. (Big groan!)

    In another post on Fatima from CP&S (see below in ‘top posts’), the Servant of God, Fr. John Hardon S.J., in referring to the Miracle says:
    In God’s providence the hostility of the skeptics was necessary to give rational grounds for believing what the children said the beautiful Lady was telling them. All the reports of those who witnessed the spectacle of the sun testify to their stupefaction at what they saw. No one, not even the most hardened agnostic, doubted that what he saw was a prodigy. This was necessary to provide the rational foundation for accepting, on faith, the Marian message of Fatima because of the solar event which everybody had to accept, as a fact, perceived by the senses.

    Why, then, was the solar prodigy of Fatima necessary? It was necessary in order to satisfy our spontaneous need for giving rational credence to what Mary was telling Lucia, Francisco, and Jacinta. The children did not need the solar phenomenon to believe what Our Lady was telling them. But we do.”

    There was no ‘collective expectation’ that day at Fatima. Yes, most of the crowd were hoping to see a miracle, as had been announced…. Yet there were those present hoping not to see one. So the miracle took place to the joy of many, and the chagrin of others. (Also, it was seen not only in the Cova de Iria, but in all the surrounding area in a 70 mile radius!) Is it really quite impossible for you to accept this fact?

    Or is it because the obvious implications that follow are ones you would perhaps rather not face up to?

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  14. Louise says:

    I have heard that the 3rd secret (or 3rd part of the secret) is not about the shooting of Pope John Paul 11.

    I f you go to http://www.catholicplanet.com Robert Conte gives a very detailed description of what the 3rd secret actually said………it hasn’t happened yet and is pretty disturbing to hear/read. I’ve also heard it from other real devout Catholics that I know, and I do believe that it is the TRUE story of the 3rd secret.

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  15. Dick Puhlir says:

    Oooh! Kathers!

    I made no rejection of the miracle, I wrote only on Dr José’s lack of reference to it and his wild talk of gaming tables in the sky. I think he had drink taken, perhaps an excellent Porto which they have there.

    His account simply seemed inconsistent with the other accounts. Thass’all! Then you informed me where I was mistaken etc in your 21.07. And that was fine.

    No, it’s Toaders who you must rein in, not me! I note that Christ had a place for Doubting Thomas.

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  16. JabbaPapa says:

    I have heard that the 3rd secret (or 3rd part of the secret) is not about the shooting of Pope John Paul 11.

    I think it’s actually about Hitler’s order to execute the entire Roman Curia, averted only because one single Christian in the Nazi hierarchy alerted the Holy See to the plan while it was being set in motion.

    The protection of John Paul II during that shooting is most certainly connected with the secrets, but I see it more as a Sign that the Warning was averted, than as fulfillment of that Prophecy.

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  17. Dick Puhlir says:

    Thanks Jabbo

    I missed your *irony* in the face of Toado’s *sardonic* comments. The nature of the beast I suppose :(irony I mean, not Toad). The two of you are just the same. ….smiley..

    I made no claim in regard to answering questions on the “Ineffable”; yet you intimated that you knew some answers but wouldn’t go further, rather teasingly. You certainly gave Toadsky a slapping though he may have deserved it.

    You say that “miracles are irksome and independent-minded”! Gasp! That they are irksome is astonishing, that they are independent minded indicates that they are sentient beings! Jabbo, you’ll have to stop teasing and spill the beans here. We’re all agog. How are they irksome, how are they independent minded, and how do you know? Share a little here, don’t be a patrician, get down and dirty with us plebs. I can see that a cat can be irksome (jumping up when you’re eating) independent minded (that’s why we like ’em) – but miracles!!!!!!!

    Your experiences could be mindblowing unless this has already happened.

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  18. Dick Puhlir says:

    The grumpy smiley appeared bychance in connection with parenthesis – not intended!

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  19. Dick Puhlir says:

    Louise,

    I looked at this website which is so fire and brimstone…. it seems that it’s all the fault of those Muslims, again. Well, unpleasant as various extremist aspects of Islam are, I’m not buying the Muslim scapegoat guff. Sorry….

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  20. JabbaPapa says:

    I f you go to http://www.catholicplanet.com Robert Conte gives a very detailed description of what the 3rd secret actually said………it hasn’t happened yet and is pretty disturbing to hear/read. I’ve also heard it from other real devout Catholics that I know, and I do believe that it is the TRUE story of the 3rd secret.

    Louise — Conte’s translation of the Vulgate into English is magnificent — but his views on the interpretation of Revelation are not IMO orthodox.

    He tends towards a biblical literalism that is uncatholic, notwithstanding that it provides an excellent theoretical basis for translation (to each his own charism) ; and his hermeneutics concerning divine prophecies and warnings are deeply flawed.

    His new translation of Unam Sanctam is absolutely BRILLIANT on the other hand !!!

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  21. toadspittle says:

    .
    “Also, (the Fatima phemonenon) was seen not only in the Cova de Iria, but in all the surrounding area in a 70 mile radius!) Is it really quite impossible for you to accept this fact?”

    Why only in a 70-mile radius, Kathleen (or Jabba)? Why not everywhere the sun was visible at that moment? Wouldn’t that be simpler?

    Mysterious ways again, supposes Toad.

    “The protection of John Paul II during that shooting is most certainly connected with the secrets, but I (Jabba) see it more as a Sign that the Warning was averted, than as fulfillment of that Prophecy.”
    Well, since you put it that way, I suppose it’s probably all right. Teeny bit convoluted, though. Thinks Toad.

    Fatima is an unfailing guarantee of fun and giggles on CP&S, every time, is it not!

    <

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  22. JabbaPapa says:

    You say that “miracles are irksome and independent-minded”! Gasp! That they are irksome is astonishing, that they are independent minded indicates that they are sentient beings!

    They are most certainly irksome, but as to their being “beings” ???

    hmmmm, I might need to dig out some Aquinas to answer that one !!!

    It was a figure of speech — the independent Mind of God is the Source of Miracles.

    Nevertheless, from our own point of view, a Foreign Mind (that of God) intervenes within the very substance of our understanding.

    Which is an Act of Infinite Love.

    Jabbo, you’ll have to stop teasing and spill the beans here. We’re all agog. How are they irksome, how are they independent minded, and how do you know? Share a little here, don’t be a patrician, get down and dirty with us plebs. I can see that a cat can be irksome (jumping up when you’re eating) independent minded (that’s why we like ‘em) – but miracles!!!!!!!

    They’re just extremely hard to deal with both practically and cognitively, in such a manner that there is nothing else comparable. Without a common frame of reference, they remain unexplainable.

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  23. JabbaPapa says:

    Why only in a 70-mile radius, Kathleen (or Jabba)? Why not everywhere the sun was visible at that moment?

    Presumably because the Sun itself was not itself the focus of the miracle, but only the people in that particular location.

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  24. JabbaPapa says:

    curses, I put in a

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  25. JabbaPapa says:

    ….. curse WordPress !!!! I put in a < instead of a > !!!

    (Editors’s note: italics corrected for you. :-))

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  26. Dick Puhlir says:

    Jabbers, your 15.59; you are SO evasive! All that dodging and swerving would do credit to a slalom skier! Getting a straight answer from you on your OWN assertions is like trying to pick up an eel.

    I previously asked you three “hows”. You can’t answer and retreat into the ‘too difficult to say’ stuff. It doesn’t look good, Jabs! I’m coming to think that you are “from Barcelona”, like Manuel of Fawlty Towers. Oh yes.

    Smiley.

    Like

  27. toadspittle says:

    .
    At last, agreement. WordPress. An anathema on it.

    But, Jabba, people who were, say, 30 miles away would se the Sun doing whatever it did, and not know why. Surely?
    Yes, this is all getting too silly. Even for Toad.

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  28. Louise says:

    Robert Conte said that he goes by……what the saints say…….what the Blessed Mother says (in different apparitions)…..and what the bible says, especially in the book of Daniel. I didn’t exactly check out if he is accurate on his info on what the different saints say about the future, but he seems to be right on with the messages from the Blessed Mother, and in explaining the book of Daniel, at least that’s how I see it.

    If you know the paticulars of where he is flawed, I’m real interested to know if you don’t mind.

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  29. Dick Puhlir says:

    “They’re [miracles] just so extremely difficult to deal with, practically and cognitively”. Ho Hum…. So as I suggested to you recently, Jabs, your intellectual approach collapses at the first fence. Hasn’t got the legs. Hhhheavily handicapped. I suggest you give Yoga or Transcendental Meditation a shot; do you the power of good. It may help you to answer some questions. And you can still remain a Catholic.

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  30. JabbaPapa says:

    Jabbers, your 15.59; you are SO evasive!

    I am not God — I have no power whatsoever to transform the ineffable into rational understanding.

    All that I can do is to attest to the reality of our Lord Jesus Christ, and His Infinite Love for us.

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  31. JabbaPapa says:

    But, Jabba, people who were, say, 30 miles away would se the Sun doing whatever it did, and not know why. Surely?

    Your guess is as good as mine.

    Ask them instead of me maybe ?

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  32. JabbaPapa says:

    “They’re [miracles] just so extremely difficult to deal with, practically and cognitively”. Ho Hum…. So as I suggested to you recently, Jabs, your intellectual approach collapses at the first fence. Hasn’t got the legs. Hhhheavily handicapped. I suggest you give Yoga or Transcendental Meditation a shot; do you the power of good. It may help you to answer some questions. And you can still remain a Catholic.

    RUBBISH

    Your non-understanding does not speak well of your experiences with transcendental meditation.

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  33. Dick Puhlir says:

    Bzzzzt!

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  34. Dick Puhlir says:

    A few days ago a miracle of July 1965 was officially recognised.

    A nun who had lumbar sciatica and had been confined to a wheelchair was at Lourdes, “when she felt a warm sensation and was obliged to get up out the wheelchair”.

    This was the 68th recognised since the first miracle took place.

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  35. Gertrude says:

    I have read through the comments with some interest. In trying to explain what Jabba calls the ‘ineffable’ some of you are missing what the message of Fatima really is. The miracle of the sun is well documented, and having met a couple of the people who where actually in the Cova on that blessed day, I do not doubt it – and they certainly did not.

    In the message of Fatima what is essential to understand is the clear allusion to God who is offended by our sins, and the necessity of praying and doing penance to avoid the temporal and eternal punishment merited by those sins. It is really quite simple.

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  36. JabbaPapa says:

    I agree with Gertrude.

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  37. johnhenrycn says:

    I live in a community that is very Portuguese. Our Lady of Fatima is very important here. Not Portuguese myself, but we are blest with the presence of those who are.

    Like

  38. kathleen says:

    Really Jabba, you have the patience of a saint trying to deal with ‘those two’!!

    Yes, I agree with Gertrude too.

    Jabba says: “All that I can do is to attest to the reality of our Lord Jesus Christ, and His Infinite Love for us.”

    And because Our Lord loves us so infinitely, and His Divine Mercy is so immense, He does not abandon us as we continue wallowing in our selfishness, pride, greed, etc. – the wide downhill path towards death and destruction – but allowed His Blessed Mother to come to Fatima and give us yet another chance to turn from sin, to warn us to change direction, and to take instead the steep and narrow path to life and joy in God’s presence. For this is what we were created for.

    ——————

    Thanks to Jabba and Louise for the information regarding the third secret of Fatima.
    Yes, I had also heard from some sources that the fullness of it had not yet been revealed in its entirety, but the ‘official’ interpretation – according to Pope Benedict XVI’s public reading out of it a few years ago – is the one about the ‘conditional’ attempt of the life of the Holy Father….. all depending on how men received the messages to return to lives of prayer, penance and fulfillment of their Christian duties.
    If there is indeed more to it, we shall find out no doubt.
    I had not heard before that the secret was anything to do with a WWII Nazi plan to murder the clergy.

    Like

  39. teresa says:

    @johnhenry, nice to see you here! It has been years since we last talked, do come more often. 😉

    Like

  40. toadspittle says:

    .
    As Toad always says, you can’t beat Fatima to get the comments zipping past our ears.
    Wait ’til Dan Brown hears about “The Third Revelation”! More Da Vinci nonsense, I bet! Six million more copies!

    A final point or two, then I’m retiring from this pointless, fruitless and futile melee. (Which I started. Mea culpa.)

    Yes Gertrude , defining “the ineffable” is always going to be tricky when one looks at the definition given in the dictionary. Plaudits to Jabba for having a go.

    Given the Christian/Catholic definition of God as a perfect being, I’ve never been able to understand how He can be either “offended” by anything, or “want” anything. But we’ll let that go, as it’s getting far too near Christmas.

    I do find it near miraculous, though, how people on here with the same “cultural” (whatever that means) background, can see the same situation so utterly differently. (Was the recent tsunami a miracle? Was the Lisbon Earthquake of 1775? Is a baby’s fingernail? A curious local atmospheric effect in a tiny part of Portugal in 1917?) Please nobody answer, or there’s no end to it all.

    Although, in Toad’s “defence,” forty-some years in newspapers and magazines does tend to make one somewhat skeptical of the “eye witness,” the “sworn evidence” the “unimpeachable testimony.” etc. It goes with the job.
    If Mr. Savile were still alive, he would happily and mendaciously corroborate this.

    Like

  41. kathleen says:

    But Toad, have you honestly read (and tried to understand) the comments? Jabba’s, Gertrude’s, mine?

    You still miss the point entirely. This whole thing is not really about the Miracle at all!! It’s all about what Our Lady communicated to the three little visionaries…….

    I give up!

    Like

  42. Dick Puhlir says:

    – and my comments too, trying in my own way to get Jabbers back on track.

    Ole Jabba got off lightly here; with all that anarchic ineffable stuff and much more, despite Kathleen’s heroic efforts to put him right. Then to say “I agree with Gertrude” so quickly! Well!….hmf!!! bzzzt! rubbish! as Jabba would say…

    A “many splendoured” thread, and amicably lively too!

    Like

  43. toadspittle says:

    .

    Kathleen gives up. So does Toad.

    (But if “it’s not really about the miracle at all,” why the heck is it called.“The Miracle of the Sun,”?)
    Although, for God’s sake, don’t bother answering.

    There is no place for Toad in the CP&S nether world of Apparitions, Angels, Secret Messages from The Virgin, Miracles of the Sun, Unicorns, Hobgoblins, The Sacred Finger of Saint Teresa of Avila, Scapulas, The Sacred Monkeys in The Vatican, and not Eating Bacon Sandwiches on Fridays.
    He has come to realise. And the realisation has taken too long.

    Might try the Quakers.

    Like

  44. Louise says:

    Right on……..AMEN TO THAT !!!

    Like

  45. Louise says:

    My AMEN comment was directed at what Gertrude said !

    Like

  46. rebrites says:

    .

    Toad will gratefully accept it, as well, Louise.(If that’s OK.)

    Like

  47. JabbaPapa says:

    Dick :

    – and my comments too, trying in my own way to get Jabbers back on track.

    Good grief !!!

    Your the one proposing that Eastern-style transcendental meditation or yoga can be “catholic”, which is completely false. Both the purposes and the methods of such practices are entirely incompatible with Catholic teaching.

    Ole Jabba got off lightly here; with all that anarchic ineffable stuff and much more, despite Kathleen’s heroic efforts to put him right.

    You really do seem not to properly reading the undercurrent of the discussion here — which is that your trendy, modernist views on things have exactly *nothing* to do with Catholic, or even just plain old Christian, mysticism.

    Again — if you imagine that mysticism can be either easily understood or easily explained, you’re deluding yourself ; and if you repeat these views in public, then you risk deluding others.

    FYI kathleen has not “put me right” — given that I cannot see even the slightest hint of disagreement between she and myself on any religious question that has been raised here.

    Then to say “I agree with Gertrude” so quickly!

    Did you falsely imagine that there was any sort of contradiction between what she has been writing and I have ?

    Like

  48. JabbaPapa says:

    (But if “it’s not really about the miracle at all,” why the heck is it called.“The Miracle of the Sun,”?)
    Although, for God’s sake, don’t bother answering.

    Because it was a miracle involving the Sun, maybe ?

    Two *separate* miracles occurred on that day :

    1) the miracle of the Sun

    2) the apparition of the Virgin to the three children

    I’d seriously hesitate to say which of these two miracles was the “more important” though — they strike me as being of similar importance.

    There is no place for Toad in the CP&S nether world of Apparitions, Angels, Secret Messages from The Virgin, Miracles of the Sun, Unicorns, Hobgoblins, The Sacred Finger of Saint Teresa of Avila, Scapulas, The Sacred Monkeys in The Vatican, and not Eating Bacon Sandwiches on Fridays.
    He has come to realise. And the realisation has taken too long.

    Well, prior to the miracles that jumped into my own lap willy-nilly, my attitude used to be quite similar to yours, so that I can warmly and sympathetically understand your difficulties with these — though I’d still be dubious about unicorns, hobgoblins, though not necessarily about Evelyn Waugh.

    The vast majority of miracles appear to be perfectly ordinary and mundane, and a great many of them can even be perfectly well explained using the scientific method, or rationality. Many think of them as not being miracles at all, even — but they are ; because the heart of trhe miraculous is reality itself.

    If there is any deeper purpose to God’s more blatant “conjuring tricks”, it is to remind us of His Love for us, and to remind us to love Him in return ; and to remind us that the ordinary Life in this strange, strange world is the greatest miracle of them all.

    Something I would suspect Evelyn Waugh of knowing all too well…

    Like

  49. Dick Puhlir says:

    Jabs says that “the vast majority of miracles appear to be perfectly mundane, and a great many of them can…..be explained using the scientific method or rationality.”

    Well after that sentence of howlers, I won’t address the rest of the erratic and erroneous nonsense – or “rubbish” as Jabs often says. Jabs shows no understanding of miracles or science -a bad place to be. Jab’s ‘thinking’ seems to be in a state of chaos here, which I suspected a few days ago when he ran away from answering some previous questions.

    Come on old chap; clear away the fog in your mind. And please explain the ‘mundane’ events at Fatima, either ‘scientifically’ or ‘rationally’ as you say they can be.

    Like

  50. Dick Puhlir says:

    I did chuckle to see your question, “Did you falsely imagine…,” – your equivalent of “when did you last beat your wife?”.

    Bzzt!

    Like

  51. kathleen says:

    Dick, I didn’t answer your comment yesterday (in which you were trying to make out that Jabba and I were in disagreement) because quite frankly I saw it as pointless! I think it is blatantly obvious to anyone reading through the comments that the exact opposite is the case.

    Why are you attacking Jabba? Are you perhaps just a bit bored and want to, eh….. liven things up a bit?
    You are clearly a pretty clever guy, so why pretend to be an i—t?

    Like

  52. Dick Puhlir says:

    Ah, Kathleen, I hope I’m not an eejit, though life events have perhaps proved me wrong. I am not attacking Jabba; the very opposite is true. Jabs howls ‘rubbish’ often when he disagrees with someone; he makes silly and contradictory statements and then clams up when asked to expand on them. If asked what is his philosophy, he may reply, “Which month, please? “.He is rather patrician and I am rather plebs, and it’s healthy if he is called to account. And me too, and you. Jabs has much to give, is quite bright, but sometimes hubris trips him up when his thinking is…special, idiosyncratic. But that’s good to read!! Without him, the site would be less colourful.

    I think you may not be au fait with a bit of cut ‘n’ thrust and laid back humour in debate. I ask you this – if all were in agreement here, would you bother to look in? Many wouldn’t. Do I want to liven things up a bit? Of course I do, and I hope you do too! And Jabba does, I’ll bet. Mr Toad has said that he likes to amuse, and he does it well. Do you?

    I have been disappointed that you have made up things, put words in my mouth and attributed them to me in recent other posts and do so here. Now you call me an idiot, which I may easily be, but do note that I haven’t indulged in similar bad manners to you or others.

    It’s clear that my time here is limited; I am an endangered species. I don’t mind a competent verbal roughing up; but your last post is not that. I don’t want to upset you, especially if your sense of humour is… what it is.

    I’ll act on that.

    Like

  53. JabbaPapa says:

    You’re just trying to conjure up an argument out of thin air.

    I’m not very interested in discussing your rubbish.

    Like

  54. Dick Puhlir says:

    That ‘rubbish’ word again! And you’re just making arguments out of thin air and then running for cover. Not interesting.
    No matter, I’ll leave you to it…!

    Like

  55. kathleen says:

    Oh dear, I just got back to the blog after a busy afternoon, and found all this angry tirade from Dick!

    Dick, I asked why you pretend to be an idiot……. not that you are. Look who’s reading things into people’s words that aren’t there! In fact I even said it was clear that you were a ‘clever guy‘. As you obviously took it (and other things) the wrong way, I am very sorry.

    Jabba is a good friend of all of us here. He has helped us no end with his surprisingly insightful intelligence and extensive knowledge in many debates over the last two years. (You are a newcomer and can’t be expected to know that of course, nor that we have plenty of laughs on here too.) But like with most of us, there are things in Jabba’s life that are private and personal, so unless he wants to tell us about them, no one has any right to ask him to…… but you just go on and on and on at him.

    I am quite happy to discuss, joke, tease, etc. with you – because naturally we can all have differing opinions or ideas – and that can be lively and interesting. But hurtful personal attacks should be kept for other sites pleeeease!

    Like

  56. rebrites says:

    .
    http://elcaminounreal.blogspot.com.es/

    Toad begs your final indulgence for a suicide note. (Of sorts.)

    Like

  57. Dick Puhlir says:

    Kathleen, you play with words, -ie you only said I “*pretend* to be an idiot” etc, so you didn’t wish to insult. Oh come on, Kathleen, you demean yourself with this. I think you have an honest side to you and hope it will shine through. The word ‘idiot’ you (didn’t) use says little about me and much about you. “Hurtful personal attacks”? I think that’s your intended territory. You and Jabba have both been caught ‘bearing false witness’ about good humoured comment from me.

    An ‘angry tirade’ from me? Far from it; merely irritation at those who falsify what others say time after time. Like Goebbels, repeat a lie often enough etc…Now I didn’t say you *were* Goebbels, I only ask for honesty.

    To the confessional with you, and take your penance!! Pleeease!

    Like

  58. JabbaPapa says:

    You and Jabba have both been caught ‘bearing false witness’ about good humoured comment from me.

    Godd grief give it a rest !!!

    /facepalm/

    Like

  59. JabbaPapa says:

    “godd” again LOL

    Like

  60. I’m not sure if I buy that interpretation of the Third Secret. It describes the Holy Father as “on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women, Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions.” This sounds quite a bit different from St. Pope John Paul II’s attempted and failed assassination. He was not at the foot of a cross and was not hit by arrows. Also, no one else was shot at or killed.

    Like

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