How to become Pope

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57 Responses to How to become Pope

  1. Toad says:

    Charming video.
    And hilarious.

    But a more modest one – about how to avoid Eternal Damnation – might be a tad more useful for most of us.

    The Career Path.

    If you want to go to Heaven, (and who would not?) and not to Hell (and who would?) first make sure you are first born into a Catholic family, or – on hearing about Catholicism – convert immediately.

    If you never hear about it, well, I don’t know. Tough luck, I suppose.

    Apparently, being a Catholic is no longer the only possible way you can get to Heaven,
    (even Muslims can theoretically make it, some say!) …but it would be far too risky to approach it from any other standpoint.

    Of topic very slightly, but is there any mention of Purgatory in the Bible? If not, where did the idea come from?
    (As it has now been proved that there are animals in Purgatory. In Spanish-speaking countries. One, at least.)

  2. johnkonnor72 says:

    …if you are interested in purgatory…it would be wise to understand the nature of sin and its effect on the soul…the stain of sin is a good place to start…afterforgiveness the habit and occlusion of the divine light requires temporal remediation…need to do this in order to realign the will…since venial sin does not destroy charity however it is a blemish of character but usually committed as a result of human frailty…the state of purgatory allows through grace a soul to stand naked and see its state of abjection and so the pain of loss becomes a perfect act of contrition which reverses the complacency of the flesh…read this>>> http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2086.htm

  3. Giovanni A. Cattaneo says:

    Nice, loved the video.

  4. Frere Rabit says:

    Eternal Damnation is a great motivator, but unfortunately it is no longer one of the punishments that school teachers can threaten kids with.

    Towards the end of a long school staff meeting last Thursday evening, the Head Teacher announced that a naughty Year 8 pupil was to be “Internally excluded” next Tuesday, (i.e. removed from lessons all day.) The Head of English, who had been nodding off, suddenly woke up and exclaimed, “Eternally excluded? Thank God for that!”

    We all laughed, probably enjoying the same mental image of the poor lad being taunted by little red demons with pitch forks in the flaming Eternal Exclusion Room.

  5. Toad says:

    So, many thanks Godlen for the Markticle, which, as far as I can figure out, grudgingly agrees that there is no mention of Purgatory in the Bible, only some sort, or sorts, of implication. No evidence. Not even of a biblical revelation. (Though what use “evidence” of a revelation might be, escapes Toad.)
    Not good enough, I fear.
    Purgatory ( inhabited by animals or not) seems to be another of what increasingly seem like “constructs” to me; not outright inventions, more things dreamed up in order to fill some lacunae – like Heaven (we would all enjoy a reward) or Hell (some of us need eternal damnation) and so – Hey Presto!- there they are.
    In the case of Purgatory, we need a sort of celestial jail, where we can do time and expunge our crimes before moving on. So one must necessarily exist, mustn’t it?
    Or else there’s no justice. And that would never do.

    Could be wrong, of course.

  6. My friend Toad needs to get in touch with my hero Paul Priest, who once posted on the Telegraph blog written by Damian Somebody (now forgotten) a lengthy list of Biblical quotations providing cumulative and rather impressive evidence for the existence of Purgatory. Of course my hero Priest is a man after Toad’s own heart, as he likes the sound of his own voice (or at least his own clacking keyboard) and he never uses ten words where ten thousand will do. Eccles himself thinks that his dear friend Toad could profitably read the Wikipedia article on purgatory to see why such a belief predates even Christ’s ministry on Earth.

    Eccles himself wonders why so many people on this blog are acting as unpaid therapists for one who has nothing but cynicism for Catholic belief. Eccles thinks it is because they are good Christians, and have some lingering belief that Toad may yet avoid the Lake of Fire if he brushes his spiritual teeth regularly and changes his metaphysical socks more often. Let us pray that they are right.

  7. Toad says:

    Toad sees a difference between skepticism and cynicism. Small, to be sure.
    But the devil is in the details, he believes.

    However, Toad has never suggested the belief in Purgatory does not exist. As to using ten thousand words, well – Ying-tong-iddle-I-po. (I paraphrase.)

  8. johnhenrycn says:

    Nice to see Eccles, especially now that he’s got command of the English language. And he’s right about that marvellous exegesis on Purgatory by the shelf stacker, er, OTSOTA, er, Paul (former seminarian) Priest. Wish I’d saved it.
    ___
    I can never access the Grate Anit-Moly (RIP) blog. Haven’t been able to for many moons. It’s always frozen. Is it defunct?

  9. johnhenrycn says:

    “Anit”, as in: I’m such a nit. Not as bad as the little boy at Mass today, though, who asked his Mom why he has to celebrate “lint”.

  10. Eccles sends greetings to johnhenry (to whom he attempted to reply with his Twitter account, but nothing happened, so maybe it was necessary to use WordPress). The new policy on spelling is due to the influence of Eccles’s secretary, who managed to stay awake the day they did grammar and spelling in school. Meanwhile, spiritual nourishment is still available at http://ecclesandbosco.blogspot.co.uk/ although Anti Moly has not been seen for some time.

  11. johnkonnor72 says:

    ….having survived the collateral damage of a four year heroin bender …been ravaged to the marrow by its delights..a walking corpse with a collection of rolexs and amercedes full of evil dross..also having attended the higher learning houses and receiving its degrees …finding that the dubious college where one pays for bones with lives is a more cogent call to arms…i have seen the devils and experienced their torments in a real sense a true grace… hell is real …meandering through the ether of technology i find myself here…true an unqualified vigilante voice crying out of the wilderness nonetheless sincere and honest…as padre pio the incarnation of charity said..you may not believe in hell but you will when you get there..you will not find God in books but in the dust of humility he is there….as darling eccles is so right one must brush their metaphysical teeth and judging from the lackadaisy visage he presents by his avatar he would do well to practice a little what he prelates for it seems his three or four teeth may be pining some of their absent candentates… spiritual starvation can lead to kwashiorkor of the heart…a swelling of pride…anyway its been a slice

  12. Toad says:

    “….and judging from the lackadaisy visage he presents by his avatar he would do well to practice a little what he prelates for it seems his three or four teeth may be pining some of their absent candentates…”

    Sheer genius, John. By Flann O’Brien, out of Joyce himself.

  13. johnhenrycn says:

    Quoth Eccles: “…many people on this blog are acting as unpaid therapists for one who has nothing but cynicism for Catholic belief.”

    So true. On the other hand, the amphibian makes it clear he needs us. Codependcy, what?

  14. johnhenrycn says:

    I love all the people on this blog. Well, almost all.
    “No, all”.
    No, sorry, Lord, almost all.
    No. ALL!

  15. Toad says:

    But seriusly, JH, Eccles has a good point.
    I’m uncomfortably aware that maybe I shouldn’t be on CP&S, as you may have gathered.
    Maybe there is a more suitable site where I could ask questions of an expert without causing offence.
    I dunno.
    Certainly far too much Toad on here, too often.
    My fault.

    No Mass again today in Moratinos for the second week.
    Don Santiago is still ill.
    Maybe there will never be Mass again here.
    Which would be rather sad.

  16. Toad says:

    ….On the other hand, How Not To Become Pope.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/23/cardinal-keith-o-brien-accused-inappropriate

    O’Brien will presumably now be declared a non-runner. Did not come under starter’s orders, all bets refunded.
    And the Pope’s decision to put his feet up has opened yet another can of worms.
    (Mix that metaphor!)
    Try as he might, Toad cannot see Benedict’s decision as “great news.” But maybe he’s wrong.

  17. kathleen says:

    Absolutely brilliant commentary on this thread!

    In answer to ‘bruvver’ Eccles as to why we all act as “unpaid therapists” to our resident Toad, I would say that yes, we are ever-hopeful he will one day “see the light”. Just by the fact that he hangs around CP&S constantly ‘nipping our ankles’ like a naughty puppy, means there must be Someone there knocking at the doors of his heart. Perhaps one day he will open it a crack….. and then it will be pushed wide open by the rushing wind outside! 🙂

    The fact that he is “sad” he is to be without Holy Mass for a second Sunday running might be rather telling…….

  18. kathleen says:

    And talking about the accusations against Cardinal Keith O’Brien making him now “a non-runner” in the coming conclave, I would say, let’s leave judgement up to the relevant authorities. He has denied the accusations, so like every person accused of a crime, he is surely innocent until proven guilty.

    Cardinal O’Brien, “…has been an outspoken opponent of gay rights, condemning homosexuality as immoral, opposing gay adoption, and most recently arguing that same-sex marriages would be “harmful to the physical, mental and spiritual well-being of those involved”.

    Seems to me he must have made plenty of dangerous enemies in the powerful gay lobby, which has now established itself in every important field of government.

  19. Toad says:

    Sunday Mass is, or has been – until last week – a highly important and integral part of village life here. For hundreds of years.
    Followed by vermut, shrimp and gossip in the Bar.
    That will continue, but it won’t be the same.

    The “naughty puppy” simile is pleasing, but I fear “old dog,” is far nearer the mark.
    And you know what they say about old dogs.

  20. golden chersonnese says:

    Good grief, Toad, Is northern Spain so devoid of priests that one cannot be sent to supply from another parish or other local source to say one Sunday Mass in Moratinos? I’d complain to your bishop or, better, the nearest Apostolic Nuncio. Get cracking.

  21. johnhenrycn says:

    I can’t understand the purported paucity of priestly personnel (sorry!) in the Spanish outback either, Golden. Anyway, every village in Spain could have a young and enthusiastic priest – and most likely an orthodox one – by the simple expedience of placing a call to the Bigard Memorial Seminary (aka “The Priest Factory”) in Enugu, Nigeria, which currently has an enrolment of over 1200 seminarians, and an alumni that includes 3 cardinals. Granted, language might be a problem at first, but if Jean de Brebeuf could learn Huron back in the day before Rosetta Stone, Castilian or Basque shouldn’t be insurmountable.

  22. kathleen says:

    Toad,
    But Catholicism is hardly a “new trick” for this “old dog”, wouldn’t you say?
    And if it’s belief you’re talking about, perhaps one day you’ll find yourself uttering the same words as St. Augustine:

    “Late have I loved you, Beauty so ancient and so new, late have I loved you!

    Lo, you were within,
    but I outside, seeking there for you,
    and upon the shapely things you have made
    I rushed headlong – I, misshapen.
    You were with me, but I was not with you.
    They held me back far from you,
    those things which would have no being,
    were they not in you.

    You called, shouted, broke through my deafness;
    you flared, blazed, banished my blindness;
    you lavished your fragrance, I gasped; and now I pant for you;
    I tasted you, and now I hunger and thirst;
    you touched me, and I burned for your peace.”

  23. golden chersonnese says:

    Dear johnhenry, Toad gives us the impression that being sent to cure souls in the Moratinos backblocks would be a penance for any member of the order or presbyters. Perhaps he has a point.

    You know, johnhenry, talking about backblocks and outbacks, so-called “liberal ctholics” in Australia are complaining about the arrival of Nigerian and Indian priests to serve as pastors in under-priested dioceses. You know what their complaint is? That these priests are not “familiar” with the local “culture” (yes, it’s Australians saying that sort of thing these days).. Anyhow, a more unCatholic thing to think or say could hardly be imagined..

  24. golden chersonnese says:

    Kathleen, toads perhaps are genetically as what Hans von Balthasar, the associate of our present Holy Father, said:

    . . . it is impossible to have any knowledge of God or verify the truth of revelation apart from actually living within a Christian faith-stance.

    Well, I thinks that’s pretty clear anyway. Phooey to toads.

    In the meantime, let us enjoy the wonderful popping sound that toads make in the following, that beginneth at the 2:31 minute:

  25. johnhenrycn says:

    GC, there is none so racist as your modern day liberal. They see everything in terms of race.

  26. golden chersonnese says:

    Dear johnhenry, don’t tempt me to add further.

  27. Toad says:

    ” . . it is impossible to have any knowledge of God or verify the truth of revelation apart from actually living within a Christian faith-stance.”

    No doubt true, Godeln. So, there we are. Living without.

    Why we are priestless at present I don’t know. Good question. This has been on the cards a long time though, Ever since we moved here the locals have been saying, “Don’t know what will happen when Santiago’s gone.” Until recently is was saying five masses each Sunday morning. So we are no the only ones lacking.
    I gather the local bishop affects total uninterest in this sort of problem, or so our friends say.
    Of Nuncios, I know nothing. Won’t the next Pope bring in his own lot?
    Like dog-catchers in The States?

  28. johnhenrycn says:

    Why do you insist on mangling Golden’s name?

  29. johnhenrycn says:

    Friend, the reason you are priestless, I think, may be because Spain has, like the rest of Eurabia, lost its way and given up. And it’s your leaders who are doing this to you. Dhimmitude is your lot, sorry to say, unless you change your ways. We, over here, are very lucky to be able to see the fate of those who welcome Islam into their midst. I say this as a person who has never met a Muslim he didn’t like. They are, as individuals, an excellent and moral people. It’s their religion – a foul cancerseeking to destroy the Church (AS IF!) – that we must combat with every fibre of our being. I would rather be ruled, in this world, by Bhuddists or Hindus or atheists than bow down before the Universal Caliphate prophesied by Bat Ye’or.
    http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/130221/sec_id/130221

  30. Toad says:

    Pure mutual affection, J.H.

    I did it originally by accident, I believe, and the result was so serendipitious “we” decided to stick with it.

    A bit like your Good Lady (If you have one) calling you, “Tarzan,” or “Bouffles.” That sort of thing.

    Probably upsets Eccles though, who’s a rare stickler for spelling!

    (And now Toad must hie to his bed of native earth before nightfall.)

  31. Toad says:

    “They (Muslims) are, as individuals, an excellent and moral people. It’s their religion – a foul cancerseeking to destroy the Church…”

    Two issues here JH, I think.
    1: I do not believe the “point” of Islam is to destroy Christianity.
    And I doubt if Muslims think so, either.

    2: How can they individually be “moral and excellent ” when their religion, for you, (or me, for that matter) plainly is not?
    Do they simply ignore its ternets?
    Religion is as religion does, surely?
    You might as well say: “Cannibals, as individuals, are excellent and moral people – it’s just their habit of eating people that causes problems.”

    However, 3: While I’m somewhat skeptical of any religion, I – like you – am most skeptical of Islam.
    For sure.
    Muslims were once considerably less uncivilised than Christians. Long time ago, though.

  32. golden chersonnese says:

    Toad, there are about 17 million Muslims outside my front door and I would have to agree with johnhenry. They identify their religion with the good and the moral life and look and behave quite normally, viz. their behaviour is as lacklustre as most other people.

    However, there are some amongst them, usually wearing little beards, little round white hats and robey thingies, who are interested rather too much in the political ramifications of Islam around the world, – the ones, indeed, that johnhenry doesn’t seem to fancy

  33. Toad says:

    “They identify their religion with the good and the moral life and look and behave quite normally, viz. their behaviour is as lacklustre as most other people.”

    ….Except that lots of them make their wives wear floor-length dustbin liners over their heads to go shopping.

    Still, maybe they have their reasons…

    Doesn’t do to be too judgemental.
    Or you might well get your head cut off.

    Still, we all have our own particular loonies don’t we?
    The Media is chocka with them.
    All laughing away.

  34. kathleen says:

    John Henry,
    I have just read your link above; it is truly terrifying! Quite honestly though, many have been watching the signs and warning about this islamic threat, only to be branded as “racist”, or “conspiracy theorists”, or just plain crazy. When is Europe going to wake up to the extreme likelihood of this coming take-over by the “Universal Caliphate”? It is every day one step nearer…. unless all Europeans return to living as real Christians again. And this is something even the most optimistic among us find hard to believe possible in our secular, materialistic, largely godless Europe of today.

    If our birth-rate was anything like the islamic one, we would always be in majority, and the Muslim presence among us would not matter so much. But as we continue to abort our babies, and to use contraception to avoid pregnancies, our people are decreasing while Muslims are increasing fast. They are fighting for a cause – to convert the world to Islam (aka, ‘submission’), whereas modern Europeans seem to be completely blinkered, living for the day, seeking only comfort and pleasure as their goals.

    This is a gloomy opinion, I know, but all the evidence is there.

  35. johnhenrycn says:

    Well said, Kathleen, but we inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere are just as “blinkered”as modern Europeans. It’s just that immigration of Muslims to our shores is nowhere near the catastrophic levels Europe has been experiencing these past 40+ years and, God willing, never will be. Poor Europe is, for us, the canary in the coal mine.

    Toad: “I do not believe the “point” of Islam is to destroy Christianity. And I doubt if Muslims think so, either.”
    For you to doubt that a prime objective (your word “point” doesn’t capture what I was saying) of Islam and Muslims is to convert the entire world, by force of arms if necessary, is to place you in the ranks of all the other fully paid-up members of the blinkered brigade. Where Muslims predominate (population-wise), freedom of religion for all others is imperilled. Do wake up. And yes, individual Muslims can be “excellent and moral people” despite their religion being a “cancer”. [Upon reflection, I should have said that Muslim fanaticism is the cancer, not Islam itself.] It is indeed a dichotomy, but there you go. I would (loosely) put your contemporary Muslim activist in the same category as 16th Century Spanish conquistadors, who used Catholic evangelization of the New World as a pretext to cover their rapacious greed. It wasn’t right then and it isn’t right now. Now, we are on the receiving end. Just desserts? Not really, since no one alive today is responsible in any way for the sins of our fathers. But that 16th century example provides a salutary lesson of the fate that awaits those who welcome strangers into their homes without the means or the will to defend themselves when those strangers turn on them.

  36. Toad says:

    While Toad is in complete agreement with both Kathleen and JH, re: Islam, it is highly doubtful if “getting down” to producing several million more Christian babies is a viable solution. (Doubtful to him, at least.)
    “Comfort and pleasure” are good goals, at least when accompanied by others like education, tolerance and decency.
    Perhaps when, or more likely if, Muslims get more educated – they will like many Westerners, discard their horrid, old-fashioned, narrow-minded attitudes.

    But then, perhaps not.
    (Just noticed I managed to spell “tenets” wrongly earlier. Eccles will be so cross! He’ll probably cut my head off, himself!)

  37. golden chersonnese says:

    Told you johnhenry was right about Muslims. Most definitely.

    I am a Muslim, by birth and through practice. I believe in God and Muhammad, s.a.w, as His Last Messenger, as well as the five pillars of our faith. That of course is the belief of all Muslims.

    What is the essence of the teachings of our Holy Koran and Prophet Muhammad, s.a.w.? Command good and forbid evil! That is repeated many times in our Koran and hadith. That too is agreed upon by all Muslims.

    That is the “golden rule” of our faith. I am less interested in labels, those can be easily printed. Content is something else. If a state does not subscribe to the creed of doing good and forbidding evil, then I do not consider it to be Islamic regardless of the label. It is easy to carve the names “Allah” and “Muhammad” on arches and buildings; likewise for leaders to don overflowing robes and huge turbans.

    The question is whether corruption, bribery, and abuse of power are deemed “avoidance of evil.” Likewise, if leaders ignore the sufferings and deprivations of their citizens, could that be considered “doing good?” When I make judgment on whether a state is Islamic, those are the crucial factors, not how often the leaders have been to Mecca or how exquisite their recitation of the Koran. (Dr M. Bakri Musa, February 24th, 2013)

    http://www.bakrimusa.com/

  38. Toad says:

    Thanks to Golden for this truly excellent piece. Please don’t neglect to read the attachment.

    I was beginning to wonder how the admirable Dr. Musa could feel confident enough to air such dangerous thoughts – without, apparently, worrying too much about getting his head cut off.

    Until I read, “I am blessed to live in America with its freedom.”

    Blessed indeed, and very sensible too.

  39. golden chersonnese says:

    Toad, I would suggest that Muslims such as the Malay surgeon, Dr Bakri, are not as rare as some might think. There are plenty of them.

    However, they are very possibly (dare I say it?) not so interesting to the media loonocrats.

  40. golden chersonnese says:

    Foreign friend: Geldno, and how do you find moozlims?
    Golend: I don’t know, I go out the front door and they’re just there:

    (well it got a laugh at work today)

  41. Toad says:

    What you are suggesting then, Golden, re the estimable Dr. Bakari – is that if he is one of many, or at least several Muslims – we have little or nothing to worry about.
    Sanity will prevail.
    Even if it takes World War Three, (which is already in progress,) and the death of millions or billions, to do so.

    As an ex- Media Loonie myself (now just a retired Loonie) I found the doctor’s comments very interesting.
    Sorry about that. Another illusion shattered, no doubt.
    Though I believe I dectect a note of pessimistic uncertainy in his observations, made at a relatively safe distance from Indonesia. Do you?

    Finding the Moozlims is, as you say, easy enough. Let us sincerely hope that the wrong ones don’t find you. (Or me. They want Al Andaluz back, it seems.)

  42. kathleen says:

    “They want Al Andaluz back, it seems.”

    Yes, it seems they do – they haven’t even bothered to hide the fact! Not only is it a more beautiful and fertile land than most of theirs, but they have some strange idea it belongs to them!!!
    They seem to have conveniently forgotten that it was Christian before they stormed over it in their hordes, destroying all the existing churches, and building their mosques on the same spots.

    Naturally, after the “reconquista” (N.B. re-conquered, not conquered), the Christians went straight ahead with destroying the mosques and re-building their churches.

    Except the exquisite mosque in Cordoba…… they couldn’t bring themselves to do that. But they got round that one easily enough by building a lovely cathedral bang in the middle instead!

  43. golden chersonnese says:

    They want Al Andaluz back, it seems

    Dear Toad, nonsense. I’m convinced it’s like when a Muslim asks you for Portugal, he’s really only looking for an orange (get googling!).

    Toad, I was merely trying to support johnhenry’s earlier belief that your average Muslim sees his religion principally as a call to live a moral life and nothing else. That is no surprise really as the Qur’an is mostly about reforming one’s life, obeying divine law and, after repeated falls, asking forgiveness from an all-merciful God .I live and work amongst these people and what I said of ordinary Muslims is very plain to me.When out and about I see it especially in the women, often struggling materially, but still intent on bringing up their children decently. They are lovely.

    As for Dr Bakri, he clearly takes Islam very seriously but the ideas he has about improving his race and its government are everything most Westerners would identify with. He is not alone and there are huge numbers just like him but they don’t appear to interest the mediacrats much. He himself sees any advanced educated nation of any kind as more “Islamic” than nearly all Islamic countries. It’s a point he frequently makes.

    Obviously then, sincere Muslims are capable of such notions and it may well, in the end, be a question of how many Muslims can go in his direction. A majority? That is not at all inconceivable.

    But we shall see, shan’t we. Well some of us will.

  44. kathleen says:

    Unfortunately I don’t believe it is “nonsense” dear Golden! It might be different in Malaysia (where you live?) and Indonesia, but here in Europe there are plenty of Muslims, mostly from North Africa and the Middle East, who hold a more anti-Western and bellicose mindset.
    (It might appear that the majority are just ordinary fairly pleasant people going about their lives, but if they were to be asked about their views on Al Andalus, or the future of Islam in Europe, we would probably get a shock or two!)

    If Toad does some googling on the subject, as you suggest, he might come up with links like this one:
    http://atgsociety.com/2011/03/muslims-aim-at-reconquering-spain/

    Although historians have pointed to Islamic Spain as a model of Islamic toleration, there is actually no such thing as true Muslim tolerance….

    Ever since Christians recaptured Spain, Muslims have been itching to reclaim the land. For many years this seemed like a pipe-dream. However, recently it has begun to look like it could become a reality.

    The amount of Muslims in Spain is staggering, but what is even more mind-numbing is the incredible rate of their growth. Between 1990 and 2010, the population grew from 100,000 Spanish Muslims to 1.5 million…..

    The immigrants bring with them a particularly radical style of Islam. Many of them are aligned with the revivalist branch of Islam known as Salafism, which calls for Muslims to restore their past glory and re-establish an Islamic empire across the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe, including Spain…….

    The rationale for Reconquista is drawn directly from Muslim theology. It is a fundamental tenet of Islamic theology that lands once belonging to Islam always belongs to Islam. Operating on this assumption, Muslims view all Spanish cities as already belonging to them.

    ….Talking with one Muslim man one day, he expressed his annoyance at the Roman Catholic Church and its policies. I asked, “Why do you come here? This is a Roman Catholic country”. He responded very quickly and defiantly, “This is OUR country”. Enough said!! I did not continue the conversation.”

    Or this link: http://www.vdare.com/posts/muslims-reconquer-spain-as-al-andalus-ii

  45. Toad says:

    Golden, Toad remembers doing a bit of study on the Koran years ago, concerning the size of stick it is acceptable to beat one’s wife with – no more than the thickness of one’s thumb, is the instruction.
    All there in black and white, in the book of merciful understanding.
    Make what you will of that.
    Kathleen, the fact is, around the year 800, Islam, in Cordoba, was less intolerant than Christianity, and was the least uncivilised place in Europe.
    Which, admittedly, probably isn’t saying very much. However.
    And you are the first, and only person I ‘ve ever heard of who didn’t regard the erection of the cathedral, in the middle of the Mezquita there, as an act of unparalled cultural, religious, and architectural, vandalism
    As you know, even Carlos V, who foolishly approved it, realised his mistake too late, ruefully saying: “You have built here what you or anyone might have built anywhere else, but you have destroyed what was unique in the world.”

  46. golden chersonnese says:

    Unfortunately I don’t believe it is “nonsense” dear Golden!

    Actually, Kathleen, it was a (failed) attempt at humour. Godnel thought that Toad‘s acquaintance with the Arabic Tongue, gained from a long career in the media, would have indicated to him that “portugal” is also the Arabic word (also Greek, Turkish, Romanian and Macedonian/Bulgarian) for the “sweet orange”-a hybrid, they say, of the mandarin and the original sour orange of ancient Asia. He would know also that the sour one was called “naranj” in Arabic.

    http://ansam518.com/2011/09/photo-challenge-day-22-trees/

    Toad, there is no such mention of the size of such stick and only one mention of wife-chastising in the Qu’ran. It’s Toad and his old media ways, rather like that fellow in the Telegraph Toad mentioned with the headline “Pope made God nod off”. If you read the whole of the chapter in which the chastening of wives is mentioned, you will see it is nearly all about acting justly, rewards for right conduct and mercy for weakness and sin. Here, have a look yourself:

    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.034

    Anyhow, it is not my part to defend the Qur’an and I won’t.

    And now, if you please, I shall now try and get used to the idea a lot of the people I work and chat with every day are busy plotting each midnight to cart off Spain, complete with Toad in it.

  47. Toad says:

    Golden, after sober reflection on my part (really, Toad?) I suspect that you particularly – and all of us – might all agree that this particular avenue (Muslim bashing) is not one we should stroll down any further, whatever our personal feelings.
    Otherwise CP&S is in danger of swiftly becoming a vulgar and commonplace brawl, like several other blogs..
    And we don’t want that.
    And if I started it, I should not have, and was wrong.

  48. golden chersonnese says:

    DearToad, you and Kathleen, of course, are absolutely right. There are many dangerous Muslims plotting such things as you describe. We even have their comrades here and they are under the assiduous surveillance of our Special Branch, historically well trained in their methods by British counterparts. The geopolitics of it are equally evident and that is probably something you are much more able to comprehend than I. johnhenry made a valid point about those kinds of Muslims also in his original comment.

    My point was merely to say that the vast majority of Muslims are as ordinary as you and I are (well not you perhaps). A good many of them here and in other Muslim lands are just too busy to make a barely decent income to raise their families. It’s even more desperate in much of Indonesia nearby; it would make you cry.

    Dr Bakri has the right trick, I believe. He and many similar to him believe the way ahead is to stress that Islam stresses learning, justice, right living and even regard for those of other faiths. He, as far as I know, is quite correct about this. His endeavour is to convince those of his race that these and other such things are the essence of true Islam. Let’s hope he and the many others of similar mind prevail in the end.

    Excuse me, dear Toad, It is past the midnight hour already in these here parts and I must go and check on the Muslim plotters and, while I’m at it, a brief look at the Boodhists, Hindoos, Taoists, Sikhs and Baha’is too.

  49. golden chersonnese says:

    I just recalled, johnhenry gets active at midnight too, “momentarily”.

    Hmmmmm . . .

  50. Brother Burrito says:

    I am sure JH knows that momentarily means “very soon” to him but means “for a brief time” to UK readers.

  51. Toad says:

    Always a slight frissson when the stewardess announces, “….We will be landing in Detroit momentarily.”

    Hope I have time to get off then, worries Toad.

  52. golden chersonnese says:

    Isn’t it generally said that nobody really wants to get off in Detroit anyway, Toad.

    Toad, some morning reading for you perhaps:

    http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?cat.27

  53. golden chersonnese says:

    Alessandro Striggio’s 40 part Ecce Beatam Lucem, said to have inspired Tallis’ 40 part Spem in Alium

    ( http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/images/5/5f/Striggio_Ecce_beatam_lucem_FS_PML.pdf )

  54. golden chersonnese says:

    Oops, apologies CP&S, that was meant to go in Brother Burrito’s “Chords” thread, to which I am now moving it.

  55. Toad says:

    It ‘s true, Golden, the sole sane reason for getting off in Detroit, is to drive down I.75 to Toledo (Oh.)
    Although, some years back, the Motor City boasted a tee shirt which read: “Detroit, where the weak are killed and eaten.”
    A motto possibly better applied to the Vatican City these days, thinks Toad.

  56. kathleen says:

    Thanks Toad and Golden for the timely reminder that we are not here on CP&S to “bash” anyone….. not even those who “bash” us! (And even those who do bash us, are a small percentage of their groups/religion etc.)

    Time for K to do a bit of penance methinks. 😦

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