The Poet, The Poem, And The Poetry

Holy Trinity-Botticelli

It is so very hard to portray the Holy Trinity. Every Christian must do so at some time in their missionary work. The title of this piece is my best effort at capturing the Trinity in as few words as possible.

The Poet and Poem are obviously the Father and the Son, and proceeding from them both is the Poetry, which is the beautiful meaning, the goodly spirit  of the poem, that truth which is left when all the words are scourged and torn away, when the poem halts, when silence descends, and when the Poem returns to the Poet’s good keeping.

(A word here for the medium in which the Poem is borne. Only the purest and whitest medium will do. The Poet has chosen one sheet only from his vast stock)

Oh yes, and this isn’t some common or garden poem. This is the greatest Love poem that it is possible to draft, unmatchable by anyone else, in Heaven or Earth.

How fortunate are we, the truly undeserving audience, as we are treated again and again to this tremendous recital of lovingness, re-presented lest we forget, until the Moon fails.

About Brother Burrito

A sinner who hopes in God's Mercy, and who cannot stop smiling since realizing that Christ IS the Way , the Truth and the Life. Alleluia!
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59 Responses to The Poet, The Poem, And The Poetry

  1. Old Shep says:

    “It is so very hard to portray the Holy Trinity. Every Christian must do so at some time in their missionary work.”

    I’m sure you’re right about portrayal. But on one point – does “every Christian” believe in the Holy Trinity? I’m not sure.

    The Botticelli is excellent artistically, despite a historical inaccuracy.

    Like

  2. Old Shep says:

    “But on one point – does “every Christian” believe in the Holy Trinity?” – that is, the huge variety of Protestant Christians don’t believe in it….do they?

    Like

  3. Roger says:

    Brother Bruno
    Thank you for this. Your Poet , Poem and Poetry is I think a beautiful approach. St Johns Gospel is breaking completely new ground. A creative Word with God and this Word that was made Flesh (True God and True Man). The Word cascading into a kaleidoscope of variety and incandescance of Love. Creation is Love flowing outwards and upwards from the smallest to the largest.
    But the Trinity is manifest and understood through a human Soul. Mary!
    It is the female that illustrates relationships so clearly. The Fathers beloved daughter, The Sons beloved Mother and the fecundity of Creation of Flesh and Spirit with a Divine Spouse. To Jesus through Mary is how poor sinful Man can begin to comprehend the Trinity.
    Lets make this absolutely clear there is NO SUCH THING AS A CHRISTIAN WHO DENIES THE TRINITY!
    To be a Christian is to recognise the Passion as necessary to make reparation to an Infinate God for the original Sin of Adam. To see the Lamb praying to the Father is to witness the Son speaking to the Father But to see the Holy Ghost is to see the Mother and that her Spouse is the Holy Ghost. Pentacost is the coming of the Holy Ghost in tongues of Fire to His Spouse present with her children in Christ the Apostles.
    As for historical inaccuracy tosh! There are those of the earth and Blind who can only see Flesh in all its crudity and there are great Poets like Botticelli inspired by Grace to soar above the commonality! The Poet sees beyond the Flesh into the living spirit and soars away with Love.
    Thank you for this meditation. St John and St John the Baptist both are Marian The Lamb and the Ewe that bore it!

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  4. Brother Burrito says:

    Old Shep,

    To be a Christian, you must accept that God is Triune. “Three in one” is a confusing translation, (and may be mistaken for household lubricating oil).

    It was I who deleted your earlier comments, and I did this because they smelt bad. I do not want this blog to be malodorous, lest it scare off good but shy readers who only read and never comment. Reading some of the stuff you wrote, they might think this place has become of ill repute.

    The rights of the blog authors to keep a beautiful blog trump the rights of any passing critter to despoil it, “in the interests of free speech”.

    If you’ve ever had a stranger’s dog crap on your prize lawn, you will understand.

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  5. Brother Burrito says:

    Thanks Roger.

    The closer you come to Heaven, the more sense the Trinity makes, though it is impossible to put into words!

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  6. Old Shep says:

    Br. B answers “To be a Christian, you must accept that God is Triune.” So most Protestants accept this, I take it? I ask again. That was the question. If they do not, you say Protestants are not Christian. I’ll mention this around and see if they agree. It’s an interesting topic.

    You go on to say “I do not want this blog to be malodorous,” because of my posts. Then you say “If you’ve ever had a stranger’s dog crap on your prize lawn,”. Dear Br. B, I have never used your kind of language or anything near it.

    I’ll leave you to it.

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  7. Old Shep says:

    Such courage!

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  8. Brother Burrito says:

    I’m glad that you’re upset Old Shep. You need it.

    I do not belong to the Church of Nice, just as I do not use a blunt scalpel to cut open an airway in a hurry.

    Change your posting character or be banned. A simple choice that should be for you.

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  9. Toad says:

    Simmer down, Shep boy, down, down!

    You are, I suspect, young.
    Take a word of thoroughly unwanted and utterly useless advice from dear old Secular Liberal Fascist Toad.
    These are nice people who mean well. A little vulgar from time to time, to be sure: viz, Burrissimo, today, (We more genteel and refined folk refer to it as “doggy doo”) but what of it?
    What they really appreciate is not someone endlessly getting all bent out of shape about religion, but someone who can make them chuckle into their cornflakes about their Church’s little “quirks.”.

    After all, as Augustine so rightly – and so often – said, “If you can’t have a bit of a laugh now and again, what’s it all about?”

    So, buck up! Fear not! Soldier on! Etc.

    Like

  10. Roger says:

    Poet Poem and Poetry I like very much!
    Lets deal with Bible Christians I will not demure to mud slanging. The difference between the Catholic and the so called Protestant. First the books of the Bible the Catholic tradition followed the Septuaguint over the content of the Old Testament. The Protestant (translation followed the later Hebrew Masoretic Text ). The Jews didn’t believe in the Trinity. Does the Trinity occur in the Old? Well Abraham and his three visitors springs to mind.
    In the new testament (whose origin is of course the Apostles and clearly Our Lady contribution because else how would the details re the Visitation for instance have been known?). In the new Testament we have the Baptist of our Lord with the a Voice from Heaven speaking of the Son! We have Our Lord’s passion where the Son is speaking to the Father. We have the extrodinary Last Supper where Our Lord expressly consecrated the Bread and Wine (of the Passover) and said that these were His Body and Blood (by what and whose Authority other than Gods could He do this?). Pentacost the tongues of Fire and the Annuciation.
    We have Luke “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” The Holy Ghost, The Father (by inference) and The Son!
    Mathew “..fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins…” Again the Holy Ghost is expressly mentioned.
    (Notice Our Lord SAVE THE PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS!!!!! Nothing about save the peoples Skins!! This world wants a Christ of the World BUT wants to continue within its SINS! )
    The point is that the New Testament and the Sacred Tradition from the Apostles (from which the New Testament came!) has the Trinity.

    Within Islam however, such a concept of plurality within God is a denial of monotheism, and foreign to the revelation found in Muslim scripture. Islam accepts Our Lord and Our Lady but only as a Prophet!

    Now when Shep talks of Protestants does he mean Islam?

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  11. Roger says:

    Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, Wears yet a precious jewel in his head.
    What is it that amuses Toad? Well a work of art (human) The Divine Comedy. Dantes work of Hell, Purgatory and Heaven. Often called the Summa (Aquinas) in verse.
    So again Poet, Poem and Poetry.
    Unless Toad considers like Herod that the Christ should amuse with perhaps some Sensational miracle to Order!
    There are those who seek amusements (worldy) and those who follow the Divine Poet through the Cross

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  12. Toad says:

    Easy for you to say, Roger.

    Says Toad.

    Who also will not demure to mud slanging.

    (I wish I’d said that.
    You will, Toad, you will…)

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  13. Toad says:

    “Does the Trinity occur in the Old? Well Abraham and his three visitors springs to mind.”

    That makes four, Roger.

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  14. Roger says:

    What makes the Poet , Poem and Poetry so profound is Salvific History. Flowing from the Word and His Song (Poem ) of Love has sprung Poetry . What is this Poetry? Well the Doctors, Councils, Popes , Saints All like a million siblings of the Poem.
    Yes a living Poem a Poem of Life and this wonderous Trinity of Unity in Diversity!
    As Brother Burrito realises Maria Valtorta extrodinary work was titled The Poem Of The Man God. From whenc does Divine Poetry come from? Well its fecundity points to the Holy Ghost. Our Lord told the Apostles to wait! It was the Holy Ghost that unleashed the Poetry of the New Testament and the Acts are Poetry in realisation.
    I hope that this meditation proposed by Brother likewise unleashes Creative Poetry afresh in this world!
    Thank you for this Heavenly inspired Topic!

    Like

  15. golden chersonnese says:

    Of course, Toad, we would never condescend to arguing with stuffed shirts on the Internet, now would we? We have much more worthwhile things to do.

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  16. Toad says:

    Golden’s comment above, is incomprehensible to Toad, so he will move on.

    I dutifully looked up ‘TRIUNE’ in my American heritage Dictionary, Burro, only to read this:
    “Being three in one. Used especially of the Christian Trinity.”
    A circular definition, if there ever was one:

    “What does the word ‘Triune’ describe?”
    “It describes The Holy Trinity.”
    “What, then, is the description of The Holy Trinity?” ”
    “It is described as Triune.”

    Toad has never been able to make any sense of The Holy Trinity idea.
    But then he find that problem with a great many things, in this funny old world.
    More with each passing day

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  17. kathleen says:

    Toad, not one of us here on earth, no matter how erudite, well-read or brainy, can fully understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity – Three Persons in One God! Our human brains just can’t get round this seeming paradox.

    St. Augustine tried endlessly to do so, wracking his brain from morning till dusk, till his meeting of the little boy on the seashore who was trying to pour the whole sea into the hole he had made…. remember that story? The little boy (the Christ Child?) told Augustine, when he tried to explain to the child the impossibility of such a feat, that he, Augustine, in the same way, would never understand the Sacred Mystery of the Holy Trinity! Then he disappeared.

    St. Patrick used the symbol of the shamrock. Others have used the diagramme of a triangle. Our Burrito has used the lovely idea above. There are endless examples, and it is good to try to comprehend what God has revealed to us. Wanting to know more is a way of showing our love for someone (or Someone, in this case).
    But it is only when we reach Heaven and are blessed with the Beatific Vision of God in His Holy Splendour, only then, will we have some comprehension of this Unfathomable Mystery.

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  18. Roger says:

    Thank you Kathleen
    Our Lord gave us the Lord’s prayer as an example of our relationship to God. But I think that Our Lady gives Us a relationship to the Trinity that is within our competence. Our Lord as God made Man this mystery is beyond mans competence.
    So relationship rather than understand because relationship helps Us to see what and how we should be in relation to the Trinity.
    Son or Daughter of God the Father (as was Our Lady)
    Mother of Father to God the Son (the infant Child is to be protected and nurtured from the forces that seek his Life)
    Spouse to God the Holy Ghost (well a human being is flesh AND Spirit ) Every conception is from the flesh BUT ALSO the Spirit! This is the Great Sin of Abortion that denies the Created Soul of the foetus.
    Adam was of the Earth (clay) but His spirit was breathed into him!
    Today the Life of the unborn is sought by the Godless. No Mother has the right to kill what God has Created.
    God is beyond Mans comprehension because Man isn’t God. But we can comprehend our relationship to each of the persons of the Trinity.
    What better example than the Holy family!
    Thank you brother for your Poet, Poem and Poetry.

    Like

  19. Old Shep says:

    This is a difficult one to answer -so much to say- so I’ll put aside my first thought – to rip Br. B, or Gareth, a new one, and respond via Toads epistle, which is wiser and more Catholic that anything so far.

    (Sorry I can’t do italics and bold for easy distinction. )

    “Simmer down, Shep boy, down, down!”

    Well I’m not surprised at being ‘shown the instruments’ , but I’m not as upset as is thought. That is wish fulfilment from some. But I know what really happened to ‘Old Shep’, poor thing, so I will not be surprised to be led out to the field. It’s for the best , innit?

    “You are, I suspect, young.”

    Toad is more perceptive that he lets on.

    “Take a word of thoroughly unwanted and utterly useless advice from dear old Secular Liberal Fascist Toad.”

    Good Lord – so far from Fascist. Yet that dark business is not so far away from others…wasn’t there a titanic struggle against such darkness, called WW2? Some of us are old enough to have fathers who risked all in that struggle., eh Br B? What would my poor old Da say to realise that it rears its ugly head again? (half nicked from Brecht).

    “These are nice people who mean well.”

    Mostly yes, I agree. Roger is one such, as is john konnor, K too. But those with the finger on the ‘excommunicate’ button can throw their weight around, and do. .Against that there are those who will take the punishment for truthtelling (who in Biblical times did that?) and be banned, as promised. Good Lord, I don’t really want to be a Cathar and be burned at the stake. But I’ll risk it for a biscuit. On the other hand, Br B rightly says something like ‘It’s my blog and I can do what I want to’. I can’t disagree with that. Never did.

    “A little vulgar from time to time, to be sure: viz, Burrissimo, today, (We more genteel and refined folk refer to it as “doggy doo”) but what of it?”

    Br B uses the language with which he is most comfortable. As we all do. Well, no – I’d be much more direct given freedom. I have a background whose direct language would roast many opponents, but I have watered down my ripostes here. I am no cocoa drinker and chanty wrassler, though I do adapt to such fripperies.

    “What they really appreciate is not someone endlessly getting all bent out of shape about religion, but someone who can make them chuckle into their cornflakes about their Church’s little “quirks.”.”

    A good point here, which rests on the notion that I am ‘upset’. But Toad’s point is subtle and effective. I’m sure I get the message; but I may end up on the pyre. Already the flames have been lit. Isn’t the re-enactment of history so attractive?

    After all, as Augustine so rightly – and so often – said, “If you can’t have a bit of a laugh now and again, what’s it all about?”

    So, buck up! Fear not! Soldier on! Etc.”

    Toad is accurate in his reference to the cheery St Augustine. Well, I’d like to soldier on but as I’ve thought since day one, the axe is poised above me, and I could disappear at any moment. The best people do. But I’m OK with that, as I prefer to speak honestly no matter the price I pay for that.. And I will, sooner or later.

    Lordy Dordy, great balls of fire!

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  20. johnhenrycn says:

    I’ll put aside my first thought – to rip Br. B, or Gareth, a new one…

    In which case, you will have to rip two new ones since they’re different people. Thank God.

    “These are nice people who mean well.”
    JohnKonnor72 is not a “nice” person. He’s a Candian Inuit, who’s family kills polar bears and baby seals, which is the only reason I like him. Baby seal flipper pie. Hmmm.

    Like

  21. Frere Rabit says:

    Dear me, how a post on the ineffable Holy Trinity can so quickly produce such a cascade of dross! Get a grip, people. There is one artwork which captures the Holy Trinity better than any other, the Andrei Rublev icon. But for me the mystery of the Holy Trinity is even better conveyed (no, hinted at, glanced sideways, and not with a direct gaze) by Olivier Messiaen in his great organ work the Mystery of the Holy Trinity, the repetitive motifs of which are based on birdsong. I listened to it over and over again in the mid 1980s and then I finally sought baptism.

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  22. Old Shep says:

    Messiaen’s Mystery and birdsong motif is indeed great; it smacks of paganism. Your instincts and seekings were eventually right.

    But try this on St Francis of Assissi…

    Hearing him, the birds came in a crowd,
    wing upon wing, from stone and blade and twig,
    from tilted leaf and thorn and lumbering cloud,
    falling from hill, soaring from meadowland,
    wing upon widening wing, until the air
    wrinkled with sound and ran like watery sand
    round the sky’s gleaming bowl. Then, like a flower
    they swung, hill-blue and tremulous, each wing
    a petal palpitating in a shower
    of words, till he beneath felt the stale crust
    of self crinkle and crumble and his words
    assume an independence, pure and cold,
    cageless, immaculate, at one with the birds
    fattening their throats in song. Identity
    lost, he stood in swollen ectasy.

    Like

  23. Roger says:

    The theme here is the Trinity and a stimulus for meditation Poet, Poem and Poetry.
    This theme sits very well with St John, Genesis and Apocalypse. The Epic which is Salvific History. The Creative Word. So the theme is nectar. Also the seeking after God is wisdom and Light because if we seek first the Kingdom of Heaven the rest will be given to Us. The theme is the most important and topical for the woes of today!

    But then comes what is worldy cleverness. Secular Liberal Fascist smatters of Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes. Then the priggish superior put down “These are nice people who mean well” Heaven choses for its voices illiterate peasants , sic Melanie , Maximim (La salette), Bernadette (Lourdes) , Jacinta Marto, Francisco Marto and Lucia dos Santos (Fatima) are these Nice people who mean well?

    The Cross is the ultimate Folly. This is the Man who can do miracles reduced to pulp, His followers scattered and His death outside of the Temple. It was the learned and intellectuals of His age that did this and it is the learned and intellectuals today who are doing the same.

    If you wish to find Our Lord today do not look in the Palaces, the Universities, the Businesses NO look where the poor sinners are to be found. Look where Man is most wretched.

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  24. Surely many, many people will find that this is one of the best explanations of the Trinity that could ever be presented.

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  25. Toad says:

    “If you wish to find Our Lord today do not look in the Palaces, the Universities, the Businesses NO look where the poor sinners are to be found. Look where Man is most wretched.”

    Where, more specifically, might that be, Roger?
    In The Peoples’ Republic of the Congo, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Israel, or the floor of the New York Stock Exchange?

    (Toad would certainly not look in the palaces of Spain. They are where the bishops live.)

    Like

  26. Roger says:

    Toad what has you entry to do with Poet, Poem or Poetry?
    Our Lord came to save Man from Sin so where are poor sinners to be found?
    Wherever there is man then there is Our Lord because the Spirit of each and every Man is made in the image of God. This is why the commandment Love Of God and Thy neighbour is an eternal Truth. Since man is made int he image and likeness of God so he has this especial relationship of Son/Daughter; Sister/Brother, Parent (the fecundity of the spiritual and especially holy virginity exceeds that of the crude flesh).
    We understand God through these relationships.

    But what happens to the Blind? Those who do not consider themselves to spiritually sick? The worldly in the conceit of Self? Free Will means that so many of these worldy are and will be Lost for Eternity. Much better is the poor wretched sinner who at least knows they are sinning.
    Materialism sadly is the biggest killer of souls because it is spiritually sick and is in denial.

    The poor of course can be even more material than the rich. Holy poverty and the life of the soul.

    So the answer Toad is wherever there are poor wretched sinners and especially those most rejected and abandoned. This is where we find Our Lord becauseit is for these His poor sinners that he gave his Life.

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  27. Frere Rabit says:

    “Toad has never been able to make any sense of The Holy Trinity idea.”

    Note “Holy Trinity idea” sic. How insulting to all who hold the traditional Christian faith, including Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, Moravians etc. etc.

    Idea? This is Revelation, Toad, and you know that. If you do not, come up to speed please, or it gets boring.

    You cannot make sense of it. And you probably could not explain to me how the internal combustion engine works either. This is why we defer to theologians and mechanics, without pretending to know all the answers. I have to take a STIHL strimmer into the mechanic on Friday because I do not know how a two-stroke engine works, although I am a trained aircraft technician. It amazes me sometimes the number of things that Catholics dismiss because they do not “understand” them. I still believe in the strimmer and my local strimmer theologian can explain what is wrong with it. I am not expected to know.

    If we dismissed the expertise of our electricians, mechanics and builders in the same way that we dismiss the expertise of theologians, we would probably die in a domestic disaster of our own making.

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  28. johnhenrycn says:

    Well, there you go: the edit button button is missed by we peasants. Your “Wednesday General Audience” comment was unobjectionable; but I actually meant to compliment your last two paragraphs on the Poet, Poem and Poetry thread.

    Like

  29. johnhenrycn says:

    …the edit button button…

    …and then, to confirm my ineptitude, I put this reply on the wrong thread. Have a nice day.

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  30. Toad says:

    Spot on about the edit button., JH – Agrees Toad, undisputed master of the hideous and careless all bold, or all itals, comment.

    In calling the Holy Trinity an “Idea,” Rabit, he really did not mean to offend, and is sorry if he did so.
    Maybe ‘proposition,’ or ‘concept,’ might be less offensive. If not, sorry yet again.
    But you, Rabit, do seem to be uncharacteristically ‘touchy’ at present. Not at all your usual happy-go-lucky self.
    Is all not well with the beasts and yourself?
    Or is it just an understandable surfeit of Toad for breakfast? (Plag: Chamfort.)

    However, at the risk of riling everyone else on CP&S as well – Toad has been brooding over this seemingly impenetrable subject.
    If God the Father at one time stood ‘alone,’ as it were, surely the addition of a son – let alone a Holy Ghost – would ‘lncrease’ Him? Yet how can God,as perfection, be increased?
    Have the Father and the Son, then, existed simultaneously from all eternity?
    Because, If so…Oh never mind.

    Mysterious ways, no doubt.

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  31. golden chersonnese says:

    Erm, Toad, Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, the part beginning with “I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ . . .” .

    Or do they say the Apostles’ Creed in Mass in Al-Andalus?. They used to until recently over here.

    Hang on. I vaguely recall now that Toad meditates silently when the creed is recited.

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  32. golden chersonnese says:

    I take it Toad didn’t win the Catechism/Christian Doctrine prize when Toad was a schooltadpole. Gleond did, just once.

    The Apostles’ Creed chanted in Syriac.

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  33. Toad says:

    True, Golden (do try, at least, to spell your own name right!). But Toad did once win a coconut.
    Which will have to do.

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  34. Frere Rabit says:

    Not “touchy”, Toad – and all is well with the four scoundrels in the field, so let’s not blame donkeys, eh? – but there comes a point when your constant scoffing at the central tenets of faith becomes a bit wearying. Your “Holy Trinity idea” remark is an example of deliberate flippancy directed at all who regard the Source of all being as worthy of respect and adoration. If a reminder that God deserves respect is “touchy”, you may find they get a bit touchier when you arrive at the Pearly Gates and dismiss the Triune God as a mere idea.

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  35. golden chersonnese says:

    Here coconuts just fall on your head if you are not sufficiently circumspect and can do some very nasty damage, Toad. One simply does not “win” a coconut, Toad, totally pointless.

    Well I’ve waited long enough for throngs of angry people to tell me that the above is most likely not the Apostles’ Creed in Syriac. It is, of course, the Nicene Creed (which is supremely Trinitarian, Toad) , mainly because the Apostles’ Creed is a Western Church formula (and not so clearly Trinitarian).

    We can chant along in Syriac here, if we feel like it.

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  36. Frere Rabit says:

    And if the subject of the Holy Trinity isn’t enough for controversy, Toad, let’s return to the Spanish Civil War. Great news: a new film about the saving of a mule in the Spanish Civil War. I cannot wait to see it. Just released: “La Mula”. It is on a limited one night showing in Alicante tonight but I could not get a ticket. Trailer here…

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  37. Toad says:

    Comforting to know that all is tickety-boo in Benidorm, Rabit.
    I worry about you. As you know. Falling coconuts, and whatever. To blame donkeys would, as you rightly suggest, be crass.
    And I too, will go to the movie. Mules are ‘noble,’ (can’t do the accent) my old friend Modesto, who used to plough with them 70 years ago, tells me.

    “One simply does not “win” a coconut, Toad, totally pointless.”

    Well, Gloden, let me attempt to explain, as you cannot be expected to know this.
    In the West we have “fun-fairs” where, amongst other curious choses,, coconuts are to be won.
    All meaningless to you, I realise.
    But, by no means ‘pointless’.

    Well, not very pointless.

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  38. kathleen says:

    I find it staggering, incredible, amazing… that Toad, after all those years of Catechism he constantly complains was “thrust down his throat” by those dear old nuns, does not know that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, is Eternal, with neither a beginning nor an end, in the same way as the Father and the Holy Spirit!! 😯

    Toad, back to school for you!

    The Son, the Word of God, took on human flesh – Verbum caro factum est – at a the moment in time chosen by God at the Incarnation, but His existence did not start then.

    Have you never read the first chapter of the Gospel of St. John, or prayed the Angelus?

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  39. Toad says:

    You put Toad to shame, rightly, of course, Kathleen.
    But he can’t comprehend how a son can be the same age as his dad.
    Defies logic. Or so it seems to him.

    Like

  40. Brother Burrito says:

    Re all the bellyaching about a lack of edit button for comments here.

    Sorry, but WordPress doesn’t provide the facility, and perhaps this is a good thing to prevent a troll entering under the radar with a nice comment, and then editing it to something nasty.

    So the only solution is to check your comment before you post it!

    Like

  41. johnhenrycn says:

    “…check your comment before you post it!”

    Ha! Well, sure, and we do. I even try to remember to say, as well as read, each word; but it’s strange how the brain works. Somethings just don’t get caught until seen in a slightly different pitch, type and format. Embarrassing, but life goes on. Another strategy might be to put the comment away in a drafts folder for a half hour or so, and then look again with fresh eyes before pressing “send”.

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  42. Toad, it does not defy logic, as we can see if we think of the different ways that something can prior to something else. There is temporal priority, in which one thing is before another in time- as a dad is before his son in the natural order of things. But there is also ontological priority (substance is before “accident”); causal priority (which need not be temporal. Even “backwards causation”- in which an effect occurs before its cause- is something which seems at least logically, though probably not physically possible); priority in intention (we will the ends before willing the means, and greater ends before lesser ones); logical priority; etc.

    So, is it conceivable that the Son of God is co-eternal with the Father? There is no manifest contradiction in saying so, as long as the metaphysical priority of Father to Son is something which can be logically conceived as non-temporal. We do conceive of this priority in such a way; Aquinas writes: “For in the perfection itself of the divine existence are contained both the Word intelligibly proceeding and the principle of the Word” (Summa Theologica I:27:2)

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  43. Frere Rabit says:

    “But he can’t comprehend how a son can be the same age as his dad.”

    You seem to have slowed down a bit since we last sank several bottles of vino tinto while discussing matters Catholic beneath the more godly singings of Bob the canary. In the age of quantum mechanics, “2001 A Space Odyssey”, and the ever more mysterious black holes, your puzzlement over such a question seems slightly tame.

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  44. Roger says:

    The Fourth Lateran Council declared, “it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds”. While distinct in their relations with one another, they are one in all else. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit. The three persons are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial.
    The Poet, Poem and Poetry is a very good approach.
    Relationship is how we are encouraged to look at God but they are one in all else

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  45. johnhenrycn says:

    RogerTheDodger, are you quoting Wikipedia or is Wikipedia quoting you? Read the last three sentences of the second paragraph of this Wiki article on the Trinity:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
    Always a good idea to give attribution to those who deserve it, rather than putting their words into your own mouth. What gave you away is that your corresponding sentences made sense. For once.

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  46. johnhenrycn says:

    …actually, Roger, isn’t your entire first paragraph lifted? Absolutely nothing wrong with quotations, but to not give a source or a link is to make people think you’re somone other than who you really are; and when they find out they’ve been deceived, well, it’s not pretty. Not that attempts like that have much chance of working in Cyberworld. Whenever I’m tempted to plagiarise (it happens), I look for clever things said by minor writers from the 19th Century, who’ve not yet been discovered by Google, and then I put my own personal gloss on their bon mots. Best regards.

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  47. Toad says:

    Toad’s puzzlement over the question of the Holy Trinity seems ‘slightly tame,’ to Rabit.
    What’s so bad about being ‘tame,’ once in a while?
    What would he prefer/ A verbal bloodbath?

    …and thanks to theintrepidpage for the patient and learned explanation, which is far too deep for Toad.
    Who can barely understand wheelbarrows.

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  48. Roger says:

    The Gospels are full of examples of souls and we are meant to look for and understand categories and types of souls. Our Lords interaction with these examples is a very important part of Public Revelation.
    For those who love and seek love understanding is given.
    But notice in the Gospels the seekers of worldly wisdom are left frustrated and empty.
    It is through Relationship that we are meant to approach the great mystery of God.
    Love and Relationship is clearly seen in Our Lady!
    But the Holy Family is united in Love and yet is three distinct persons. Marriage and the unity in diversity is how God teaches of Himself and Heaven.
    Now one of the most common type of soul is the rich and idle Herod. Herod was highly educated and sought the delight and pleasure of entertainment. Clearly Herod enjoyed a good laugh and didn’t take religion to seriously. Our Lords response to Herod? Silence!
    The Pharisees and Sadducees, Scribes and Learned again and again Our Lord illustrates that these and their Pride of Intellect are Blind in their understanding of the Faith.
    To the Humble and Lowly and yes poor Sinners Our Lord shares the depths of Wisdom.
    Maria Valtorta was told the the Gospels illustrated types of souls and we should go back and drink again from the richness of the Poet , Poem and Poetry.

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  49. Roger says:

    Now because I do not want to lose the importance of this illustration of God The Father.
    The Great and chosen model for Us to look at of the Eternal Father Is St Joseph!! Go to St Joseph. The Holy Family is Public Revelations example of the Unity and Trinity. The simply lover understands this the wise and worldly will never come to understand

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  50. Toad says:

    “The simply lover understands this the wise and worldly will never come to understand..”

    “Death to intelligence!” eh, Roger? There’s a war-cry fit for us all!

    Montaigne says somewhere (I paraphrase and, no doubt, plagiarise) something like, “If it’s true that stupid people are happier than intelligent ones, shouldn’t we all start taking stupid lessons as soon as possible?”

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  51. golden chersonnese says:

    Well, dear Toad, St Montaigne sounds like a second Paul right there:

    1 Corinthians 2
    14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

    Furthermore:

    St Matthew 18
    2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

    But on the other hand:

    St Matthew 10
    16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes/u> and as innocent as doves.

    Another mystery, like the Most Holy Trinity, Toad, or at least a source of puzzlement?

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  52. golden chersonnese says:

    Speaking of the Trinity, the Credo from the Mass in D by Pan Antonín Dvořák has long been a favourite and not that hard for your average (traditional) Western church choir to tackle (unlike the Syriac version, which looks tricky). The later movements verge on the stirring, in a poetic sense.

    Toad, prepare yourself for your usual “silent meditation” during the Creed (or, alternatively, stick your fingers in your ears while singing I’ve got a loverly bunch of coconuts:

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  53. Toad says:

    “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    Glad you raised that Golden, because that statement has long exercised Toad. Surely it can’t mean “Believe everything the grown-ups say, and do whatever they tell you to,” can it? If so, rather ill-considered advice, we all agree.
    Children are naturally trusting and credulous of adults; sometimes – as we know only too well on CP&S, do we not – to their very great misfortune.

    So, assuming the above statement means something else – what might that be?

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  54. johnhenrycn says:

    Toad, I agree that Gospel passage from St Matthew about being “like little children” does not mean becoming credulous or naïve, even though little children usually are. I would hazard the opinion it means we must humble ourselves to become free of unforgiven, unabsolved mortal sins. There are few – I would venture to say NO – little children who are guilty of mortal sins (nb: ‘Original’ sin is something different), and Our Lord is, I think, admonishing us to return to that state of innocence, through the sacrament of Reconciliation.

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  55. golden chersonnese says:

    Though such abusers are few proportionately speaking, aren’t they, Toad, despite the impression the media create?

    I somehow suspect that the childlikeness recommended is in relation to God, don’t you, Toad, seeing as it appears to be concerned with entering at last the Kingdom? A complete trust in and love for God, much as the small child would show to his or her parents. I’m sure the Scriptures would back that up in many many places.

    Psalm 22:9
    Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.

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  56. Toad says:

    The media doesn’t try to “create impressions” Golden – there’s no need. They run stories and people read them and create their own impressions from that.
    That’s what you do isn’t it?
    It’s certainly what I do.

    …And you say, “..abusers are proportionately few,..” Well yes, that’s why they are a story. If half the population were child abusers nobody would bother writing stories about them at all.
    But yes, it is great a shame the media “chooses” to run stories about naughty old priests at all isn’t it?
    Not just quietly and discreetly hush the unfortunate business up like the bishops do, or did.

    You are right. “the media” is just not fair! (and it’s loony as well, remember.)

    Like

  57. golden chersonnese says:

    Yes, yes, Toad, so you keep saying.

    Like

  58. Toad says:

    Well Golden, it was you who mentioned it, above. Toad very carefully avoided even using the word, “abusers” didn’t he? As you will see if you read carefully again. For all the good it did him.

    And I’m getting as bored with ‘defending’ the loony media as anyone else must be with ‘attacking’ it. The Media, like The Church, is only human. They both screw things up, from time to time.

    Like

  59. Roger says:

    Well now lets look at the material and modernist approach to knowledge and what and all man is “…biochemical and neurological ..” .
    The difference between human knowledge and Christ revealed knowledge.

    Now what happened with the burning down of the Alexandrian Library or its modern equivalents for the storing and retention of knowledge and learning.
    I mean a asteriod strike! a volcano, a tsunami and there ends a chunk of knowledge gone for ever. Hitler and Stalin both believed you could eradicate knowledge (such as Faith) by its total destruction. The early church suffered from the mass destruction of New Testament , Gospels when these were found they were destroyed.

    Christianity and the Church cannot be destroyed, will never be destroyed. This is the Prophetic statement of Our Lord.

    Human learning can be destroyed utterly and completely (Alexandria Library) .

    So how can the Church and ALL its knowledge and learning claim to be Eternal and indestructable? What is more that this learning builds over the generations and isn’t restricted to 2000 years ago.

    Shakespeare, Dante, Mozart, Einstein, Keynes,Marx , Islam, Plato can be losted for ever!

    The materialist thinks that the memory and learning can be extracted from a biochemical and neurological memory storage! That this could then be preserved and extracted, recreate a cloned body from a stem cell and then put the retrieved memory back into that new cloned body!
    Frankensteins.In the conceit of his Mind the modernist believes in Alchemy!

    So it amuses me to read the incredulous trying to comprehend and reason “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Well now these little chidren are not these the created souls of the Father?

    The Church is the mystical Body of Christ (true God and True Man) . Modernists and materialists are human.

    A Divine Poet, Poem and Poetry THAT CAN NEVER BE DESTROYED!

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