Our Lady of Fatima: a reflection on her warning about Hell

images-2The appearance of Our Lady at Fatima (whose feast day we celebrated yesterday) was not an apparition in isolation. It followed in a long line of apparitions that included those of Paray Le Monial, Le Rue de Bac, La Sallette and Lourdes, all of which had occurred in the previous century. It is noteworthy that the apparitions at Fatima, took place between May and October of 1917, on the eve of the Bolshevik revolution, 200 years after the establishment of Freemasonry in 1717 and 400 years after the Religious Revolution initiated by Martin Luther in 1517.

The message of Fatima was not merely a call to repentance and prayer, but had a much wider significance, having a bearing on both political and theological matters, with firmly prophetic predictions in respect of Nations and the Church.

However, the Fatima messages may have seemed to have diminished in importance during these last 50 years, paradoxically because the prophesies of Our Lady have been already fulfilled! But Fatima is as important today as it has ever been, perhaps even more so.

World War II, where it is calculated 50 million people lost their lives, took place after the “strange lights in the sky” in 1938 of which Our Lady had foretold. Communist Russia “spread her errors” (atheism and secularism) throughout the world as Our Lady had also predicted. Even the prophecy of the attempt on the life of the Pope, Bl. John Paul II (part of the third ‘secret’ of Fatima) has come and gone, and now faded in the memory of many.

Devotion to Our Blessed Lady is not popular among our separated Protestant brothers, and in the current false climate of ‘Ecumenism’, any talk of the Mother of God is considered ‘politically incorrect’! Sin, and the current lack of a sense of sin, is rampant. The basic ‘call to repentance’, prayer and sacrifice for sinners, the carrying of one’s cross with patience and humility, are not messages the laid-back, comfort-loving, libertine masses want to hear.

Belief in and veneration of the Blessed Sacrament, an essential requirement for all Catholics, has declined drastically.

This Great Apostasy and rebellion of mankind, both in the secular world and within the Church itself, with all its terrible consequences of wars and disasters, and that Our Lady foretold at Fatima would happen “if men do not mend their ways”, is what many believe we are living today. Therefore Our Lady’s words on how to remedy this catastrophe are more appropriate than ever.

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Most unpopular of all the messages given at Fatima is the frightening idea of Eternal Damnation for unrepentant sinners! “Hell is so passé” they say, “so negative and out-dated”. Our Lady showing this terrible place of torment to the three young children of Fatima is thus an appalling idea for many. Yet it was precisely because Hell is real, that Our Lady, the most loving of Mothers, seeing her children had wandered to the brink of a vast abyss, had came to warn us of the danger. Our Blessed Lord spoke of its existence to His disciples time and time again, and yet once more mankind, in his search for unbridled sensuality and pleasure, was turning deaf ears to the Gospel teachings on the reality of Hell.  (The prevailing idea among believers, that everyone will end up in Heaven one day no matter how they live their lives, is totally false and dangerously naive.)

Hell for all eternity? What a horrendous, terrifying prospect! We would not wish such a destiny for even the wickedest criminals. Should we not to do everything, everything, in our power to prevent such a fate for anyone, ourselves included of course?

Our Lady told the children that God wants to establish “Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in the world” as a sure way for men to turn from Evil. (And as we have said before, Devotion to Mary leads automatically to Devotion to Jesus Christ.) “Many souls go to Hell because there is no one to pray and make sacrifices for them. Pray, pray much and make sacrifices for souls”. Prayer and sacrifice. Two vital ways we can all, old and young, sick and healthy, heed Our Lady’s pleading, and become willing victims to save souls. Using every available moment to turn our hearts and minds to prayer, even in the normal carrying out of our daily duties, and turning every opportunity during the day (and there are plenty) to make little sacrifices for the conversion of sinners, we are actively participating in Christ’s mission in His Mystical Body. By generously offering our whole lives as ready victims for the good of others, we not only console the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, but we bring about the necessary graces for men to turn from sin, to repent and amend their lives. Our Lady is calling us, her children, to be the instruments for souls who have lost their way (as perhaps we ourselves had once upon a time) to find their way back to the path that leads to Heaven. There they shall encounter the ever-lasting peace and joy only Faith and Hope in God can bring. Our true home is Heaven; we were made for Heaven. Let us work towards that end.

Naturally, this plan of life will not go unrewarded for each one of us either, and we too have our own sins for which to make reparation! This is the profound meaning of the ‘Communion of Saints’. “Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . ” (CCC 947)

“In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph!” We have Our Lady’s promise of ultimate triumph over Satan and his reign in the world; it is our duty, and with the assurance of God’s assistance, to bring about this triumph. “And then a period of peace will be granted to the world”, Our Lady told the children at Fatima. How greatly we need that peace today.

The simple prayer Our Lady taught the children of Fatima to be said at the end of each decade of the Rosary:

Oh My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who have most need of Thy mercy.

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58 Responses to Our Lady of Fatima: a reflection on her warning about Hell

  1. Toad says:

    “Hell for all eternity? What a horrendous, terrifying prospect! We would not wish such a destiny for even the wickedest criminals. Should we not to do everything, everything, in our power to prevent such a fate for anyone, ourselves included of course?”

    Why not consider the ‘fact’ that such a fate – eternal damnation – is neither just or logical, byany standards, in the first place?
    How could you, Kathleen – if you don’t mind me getting personal – ever do anything so bad as to deserve Hell?
    I know you, and you simply could not.
    Nor could anyone else, not Stalin, not Hitler, not Judas, not Herod, not Tony Blair, nor Mel Gibson.
    Nobody could, no matter how awful they are, or were.
    Not even Toad.

  2. Toad says:

    “Many souls go to Hell because there is no one to pray and make sacrifices for them.”

    This clearly indicates that “going to Hell” is as much a matter of simple mischance, or of not having benefited from the right spiritual connections, or simply from the lack of a grieving family, than anything halfway reasonable.

    See, Kathleen? Toad is not even a teeny bit upset by all the, ” Grand Guginol,” as Godlen would no doubt say.
    If pressed.

  3. nigrasum says:

    Thank you for this article, which brings out many true aspects of Our Lady’s message at Fatima. However, a few assertions here strike me as questionable:

    1. “However, the Fatima messages may have seemed to have diminished in importance during these last 50 years, paradoxically because the prophesies of Our Lady have been already fulfilled!” I do not find the evidence for this assertion convincing. It appears to rest on the unsubstantiated assumption that the “errors of Russia” are simply coterminous with the political existence of the Soviet Union. Could there not be “errors of Russia” that, having been spread by Russia, are still powerfully at work in the modern world? As for any ongoing agency of Russia, that is a more complex question but one which should not be lightly closed.

    2. “Even the prophecy of the attempt on the life of the Pope, Bl. John Paul II (part of the third ‘secret’ of Fatima) has come and gone, and now faded in the memory of many.” The notion that the Third Secret (at least that part of it which has ostensibly been released to date) refers to the attempt on Pope John Paul II’s life is also lacking in any real foundation.The imagery in the released part of the Third Secret refers to a Pope leaving Rome in ruins and passing the corpses of the faithful on the way to his martyrdom. This is not what we have witnessed to date.

    Upshot of this: the message of Fatima is even more relevant than you say, since (as I believe Pope Benedict explicitly admitted during his journey to Fatima on 11th May 2010) it does not relate exclusively to past events:”Whoever thinks the prophetic mission of Fatima is over is deceived.”

  4. kathleen says:

    Toad,
    The Doctrine of Hell as ‘a very real place of exclusion from the Presence of God’ is part of Revelation. To not believe in Hell is, in a manner of speaking, calling Jesus, Son of God, (Who taught about Hell) a liar! As that is of course unthinkable, we are bound to believe in this Truth.

    Where we go wrong – or you in this case – is imagining God as some sort of tyrant, sending people off to Hell for any little ‘pecadillo’. This is a totally false way of thinking. We are all sinners – with the exception of the Virgin Mary – as we were created with the lingering consequences of Original Sin. This is because we were also created with free will, and bear the consequences of our first parents’ sin. What merit would good works have if we were created like robots, unable to choose between good and evil? Our Blessed Lord knows our weaknesses and limitations, and offers us His Grace and His Divine Mercy to help us along the way, right till we draw our dying breath. If we have ‘put our trust’ in Him, Our Saviour, we need not fear; He will guide our stumbling, faltering steps.

    As I said (on the other thread just now) we were created to be with God in Heaven for all Eternity. This is our true destiny and that is why “our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee [God]”.
    Life on Earth is our ‘testing time’, our pilgrimage, on which we journey towards our Home.

    Re, Hitler, Stalin, Herod etc….. no one knows where they ended up! As even hardened sinners can be forgiven at the last moment, the Holy Catholic Church has never said the name of any person who might be in Hell.
    We can only wonder……

  5. Roger says:

    Kathleen Yes!!
    You are absolutely correct. Fatima doesn’t stand in isolation rather it follows logically on previous revelations, dogmas and councils. The two massive Marian Dogmas Immaculate Conception and Assumption.
    Fatima ties into Leo XIII and his vision of Satan seeking permission to sift the Church.
    “..The Vision Of Pope Leo XIII October 13, 1884 Exactly 33 years to the day prior to the great Miracle of the Sun in Fatima ..”
    Fatima ties in directly with Pius XII (Pacelli) being made titular Archbishop of Sardis in 1917.
    I would also point out the Angel of Portugal that appeared to the three children. The Nations came into being (Tower Of Babylon) The Nations of Europe especially have their Angels.
    The sifting of the Church over 100 years (we do not not when this started!!) and 20th century ties in with Our Lady Of Good Success and Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres who was chosen to make reparation for the 20th century.
    Today Abortion, Divorce and governments exist that are expressly Anti Christian!
    Now I am not concerned or even judging of souls just pointing out the obvious before Our eyes. Europe has abandoned the Faith even hostile to it.
    There has to be a solid piety and bedrock to Our Faith. Not a worldy wishy washy version. The Shroud image is horrific for the brutality inflicted upon the body. Horrific!! This is what Sin looks like in Gods eyes!! The Shroud is direct and before Us I care not for the Science instead the depiction of Satanic inspired butchery on a Body is very visible. So we have a image before us of what the Crucifixion was!
    Hell is Real and the worldly personal view of God has to be reconciled with Calvary. The Mass and Eucharist have to be understood in terms of Calvary. Fallen Man Adam must be understood in terms of Calvary.
    Also do not forget the Brown Scapular! The Rosary and the Scapular are very important to Us in these times.
    To begin to understand the Faith we must strip off SELF. Self will justify everything in worldly terms and we must instead look through spiritual eyes and the sight is far from pleasent.
    In the End Our Lady said THE PROBLEM IS THE PART UP TO AND BEFORE THE END!
    There was an article in Daily Telegraph 13th May 2013 (Spainish archbishop warns of social collapse in eurozone) he compares this time with that prior to French Revolution.
    Are we seeing La Salette coming true before Our eyes! We are seeing a secular and worldly version of the faith waterdown.
    Thank you for standing Up and writing what you have written!

  6. kathleen says:

    @ nigrasum
    Thank you very much for your fascinating insights into the Fatima messages. I willingly stand corrected where you point out how the “errors of Russia” are most likely still very much at work! The great Father Werenfried van Straaten also said that the deep ‘scars’ left by atheistic/communist Russia would be with us for a very long time to come.
    And thank you for repeating Pope Emeritus Benedict’s words – saying that Fatima does not relate exclusively to past events.

    About your point 2 there is a lot of controversy. Some say the fact that Bl. John Paul II did not fit the exact picture of Sr. Lucia’s account could be put down to the millions of faithful devotees of Fatima who had followed the requests of the Blessed Virgin at Fatima, thus slightly mitigating the outcome of the prophesy in the intent on his life of 13th May 1981. The corpses on the way the Pope passes in the vision could be a symbol of the many who have gone astray and abandoned their Faith. I don’t know. On the other hand you may well be right (as I have heard other speakers on Fatima say) that we have not witnessed the fulfillment of this prophecy yet. Even Sr. Lucia, I believe, did not commit herself to confirming, or not, that this intent on Pope JP’s life was a living out of the vision Our Lady showed her.

    Thank you again for your valuable contribution here.

  7. kathleen says:

    Thanks Roger, that was a great comment! Yes, there are so many extraordinary coincidences linked to the visions and dates of Fatima.

    You are right, I left out some bits of information, but most of our readers are already well aware of the events of Fatima, and there is a limit on what one can include in just one article. Besides, I wanted to underline the importance of the Doctrine of Hell, that Our Blessed Lady did not shrink from showing to three young children, as a warning for mankind through her protective motherly love.

  8. Toad says:

    “Some say the fact that Bl. John Paul II did not fit the exact picture of Sr. Lucia’s account could be put down to the millions of faithful devotees of Fatima who had followed the requests of the Blessed Virgin at Fatima, thus slightly mitigating the outcome of the prophesy in the intent on his life of 13th May 1981. “

    What we are actually saying here is that some of us will go to any lengths, however ridiculous, to make a plainly ill-fitting ‘prophecy’ fit.
    Aren’t we?

  9. Toad says:

    Many thanks to Kathleen for a hell of a fun evening. Toad is off to an early bed with Montaigne, to try to help restore his ailing sanity.

    But, if someone, anyone can answer his usual dreary old question , “How can any limited creature ever merit an unlimited punishment?” he’d appreciate reading it tomorrow morning over his Marmite and olive oil toast, and then considering the implications while he walks his four-legged furries.

    Because,so far nobody has even bothered trying to answer it. Can’t be that hard?

  10. johnhenrycn says:

    Kathleen:
    The prevailing idea among believers, that everyone will end up in Heaven one day no matter how they live their lives, is totally false…

    I don’t think we can that it’s totally false, nor do all eminent Catholic theolgians categorically accept that it is. The great Hans Urs von Balthasar, for example, whose theology profoundly influenced John Paul II, Benedict XVI and (I think) Pope Francis, reminds us in his book Dare We Hope That All Men May Be Saved? that while we don’t know that all will be, neither do we know that some won’t be. Balthasar doesn’t even discount the possibility of salvation for non-Christians, and has suggested that every human may (eventually) be granted it, although he was always careful to avoid asserting such ideas as dogma, which he knew he wasn’t entitled to do anyway.Sometimes I’m distressed by the idea of universal salvation, sometimes not.

  11. kathleen says:

    “Because,so far nobody has even bothered trying to answer….”

    No Toad, it’s not a question of being “bothered”, but with my large family to sometimes attend to, I can’t be glued to the computer 24 hours a day. In fact occasionally I don’t even find the time for a look in. 🙂

    OK, so to your first question at 17:39….. If you know about the vision Our Lady showed to Lucia, you will see that many details fit the event of the intent on the life of Bl. JP II. He could well have been the “bishop in white” Lucia saw. (Besides, ordinary bishops do not tend to wear white except in the tropics). The event occurred on the 13th May, the exact date of the first apparition of Our Lady; and with 365 days in the year this could have happened, that’s quite a coincidence, don’t you think? He was shot at, in the same way as the holy man in Lucia’s vision.
    The fact that he did not die, but was instead very seriously injured, just goes to show how nothing is predestined. This is very important, so think about it. Pope John Paul II, who had a great devotion to Mary, believed it was “the finger of Our Lady” who slightly diverted the direction of the bullet, thus saving his life.
    If this was indeed the prophecy come true (and as you can see above from nigrasum‘s comment and my reply) there is an element of doubt there, it goes to show how by making use of our free will to take heed of Our Lady’s warnings, to truly live as followers of Christ, the future coming disasters can be avoided.

    If everything in the future were already mapped out and unchangeable, there would have been no point in Our Blessed Lady ‘leaving’ Heaven to come and plead with us to amend our lives.

  12. kathleen says:

    Now to your second question at 20:16 (and which I think we have discussed more than once before): “How can any limited creature ever merit an unlimited punishment?”

    Man was indeed created; he had a beginning, although as we read in the Bible, he was always in the mind of God. “I have loved you with an everlasting love.” Now man, with his immortal soul, has been created for everlasting life with God. He was created, but he will never die. Heaven and Hell have no end.

    Let’s aim for Heaven, eh?

  13. kathleen says:

    Johnhenry,
    I too would love to think that all men will be saved, but the words of Our Blessed Lord, plus logic and common sense, rather tend to show otherwise. In fact so many Divine warnings about a place of exclusion from God (for that is what the torment of Hell is all about) when the place is empty of souls of men, just seems too bizarre to have any meaning. Why not just forget any mention of such a destiny then, if no one goes there?

    Whereas I find it hard to believe man would have been created if Hell were indeed full of “poor sinners”, and that through God’s unlimited Divine Mercy, many hardened sinners will be given the grace, and have the choice, of sincerely begging forgiveness for their lives of sin before going to Hell, where do you think those who refuse God’s Mercy right up to the bitter end should go? Why should they be dragged ‘kicking and screaming’ into God’s Holy Presence when they have lived their lives as God’s bitter enemy? Because to be with God for Eternity, Who you have hated in life, would be intolerable for them.

    I know the idea someone could choose Hell over Heaven is unbelievable for many, but such is our freedom that this could be so.

    In one of Our Lady’s apparition sites (I cannot remember now where) she answered the question, as to where most men end up after death, as going to Purgatory. In other words they will be saved; after Purgatory comes Heaven!!
    Though some might have a long ‘wait’ first. It’s a consoling thought all the same.

  14. Frere Rabit says:

    OK, Toad, you pose the question, “How can any limited creature ever merit an unlimited punishment?” As usual, you seem to pose your mechanical questions while impishly knowing that the answers are without the realm in which your question is posed. And it is a rather tired game, in my opinion.

    Here is a thought from “Little Gidding”, the last of the Four Quartets of T.S. Eliot. Maybe the poetry can jolt you out of your enslavement to the mechanical equations of the enlightenment…

    The dove descending breaks the air
    With flame of incandescent terror
    Of which the tongues declare
    The one discharge from sin and error.
    The only hope, or else despair
    Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre—
    To be redeemed from fire by fire.

    Who then devised the torment? Love.
    Love is the unfamiliar Name
    Behind the hands that wove
    The intolerable shirt of flame
    Which human power cannot remove.
    We only live, only suspire
    Consumed by either fire or fire.

  15. johnhenrycn says:

    Well, Kathleen, I can’t say that I disagree with you, but let me ask you two questions:
    1. Should we hope and pray that every human is saved?
    2. How goeth the pilgrimage, if it’s started yet? 😉

  16. Frere Rabit says:

    Sorry, typo… should be “pyre or pyre”.

  17. johnhenrycn says:

    Frere Rabit: Is this slim volume on your bookshelf too?

  18. Frere Rabit says:

    JH, that is prolly a quite godawful book. The rather twee Anglican longings for a Little Gidding spirituality are very little to do with the enormous power of Eliot’s verse. As an Anglican friar in Dorset, I used to watch the sun set over the friary cemetery with East Coker in the distance. The Four Quartets are the life blood of my pilgrimage.

  19. Frere Rabit says:

    Oh, and here is another thought, Toad, and a similarly dreary old question , “How can any limited creature ever merit an unlimited reward?” Or do you not believe in salvation either? Consider that over your Marmite and olive oil toast, and then “consider the implications.”

  20. johnhenrycn says:

    …prolly a quite godawful book.”

    Fact is, Frere, I’ve only glanced at it. I’m a book collecter first, and a book reader second, so I must defer to your judgement. No way can I read all of my collection before I shuffle off. I’d need another hundred years. But in these days of destruction of paper books, even by world class libraries, in favour of internet depositories that may disappear in one huge magnetic pulse over London and New York perpetrated by our enemies, I am doing God’s work (don’t laugh), much like how The Irish Saved Civilization. On eBay, my library, so costly to assemble, is worth only a quarter of its purchase. My children will be chagrined to discover that fact when I leave this mortal coil, unless the magnetic pulse I speak of, and which I dread, actually takes place. Then, they’ll be in clover.

  21. johnhenrycn says:

    Rabit @ 23:03
    Nice return volley to Mr Toad.

  22. Toad says:

    Nice volley indeed. Duce. Advantage Rabit!

    But is the issue of eternal punishment and its implications just a game? Not really, for me- maybe for him and JH, who is at least giving the matter a bit of thought.
    This is an important question: we all agree on that, at least.

    Do I also reject the idea of everlasting reward? It sounds nice, but I don’t know if it’s true or not. Hell sounds nasty and I don’t know if that’s true either. I think it’s not and I hope it’s not. Naturally.
    But sadly, neither Kathleen nor Rabit has made the slightest attempt to answer the question. Kathleen especially, at 9,20.p.m., doesn’t even try, and Rabit, at 11.03, sidesteps by asking another question – about salvation.
    Oh, well. Never mind.

  23. Toad says:

    “The rather twee Anglican longings for a Little Gidding spirituality are very little to do with the enormous power of Eliot’s verse. “

    ..because, if they are, where does that leave Poor Old Rabit?

  24. Toad says:

    “I know the idea someone could choose Hell over Heaven is unbelievable for many, but such is our freedom that this could be so.”

    You’d have to be mad, wouldn’t you? Not that being so might cut you any slack.
    Mad people can choose, too.

  25. clementaustin says:

    Does it any good for Carlo Gambino any good if I light a votive candle and pray for him? Is that the question being asked? I think it is!

  26. johnhenrycn says:

    I think it may do some good, clementaustin, whoever Carlo Gambino may be. Is he a good Italian cook, like Joe “Dogs” Iannuzzi, an ex-member of the Gambino crime family, who wrote the Mafia Cookbook that I like to *steal* recipes from now and then?

  27. johnhenrycn says:

    Speaking of mobsters, clementaustin, have you of heard of that 1930s gangster, “Dutch” Schultz, a Jewish-American criminal who, after being fatally shot, asked to receive and did receive Baptism and the Last Rites from a Catholic priest?
    http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2509833/posts
    Amen, I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
    So clever, leaving it until the last minute, but better late than never, what, what !?
    http://listverse.com/2009/09/29/top-10-fascinating-deathbed-confessions/

  28. johnhenrycn says:

    …and then there’s the good Irishman, Pat, who, leaving the Fiddle & Fox late one night, fell down an open manhole, and with close to his dying breath cried out for the local Rabbi to be called, who upon being lowered down to Pat’s deathbed asked Pat why he, obviously a Catholic, would summon a Rabbi, to which Pat replied: Well, Rabbi, ye don’t expect me to ask Father to come out at this hour of night?

  29. Toad says:

    San Isidro day.
    Raining.
    I will light a candle for requests at mass as usual, then I will help walk St. Issy’s statute round the fields so that he, and Don Santiago, can bless them. He has a little ox with him. (Isidro, that is, not Santiago, who will have a brolly.)
    What has all this got to do with Hell? Well, it’s going to be hellish wet out there. And the farmers expect the best harvest for exactly 20 years because of it. So they’re pleased as hell.

  30. johnhenrycn says:

    Yes, I get it, Toad:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isidore_the_Laborer
    God bless, and good night.

  31. Toad says:

    “Why should they be dragged ‘kicking and screaming’ into God’s Holy Presence when they have lived their lives as God’s bitter enemy? “

    What about those who don’t believe God exists at all, or simply aren’t sure of it, Kathleen? How could they be “bitter enemies” of, in their estimation, nothing, or of something they consider unknowable?
    Where will they go?

    Personally, I’ve never met anyone who claimed to be “God’s enemy” in my whole life.
    Should get out more, Rabit will no doubt tell me.

  32. kathleen says:

    @ JH yesterday:
    “1. Should we hope and pray that every human is saved?
    2. How goeth the pilgrimage, if it’s started yet?”

    To your no.1: yes, I think this is what we are called to do as Christians.
    2. Not yet…. we set off from Westminster Cathedral on Friday morning. Looks like we’re going to be in for some bad weather, so more opportunities for offering up our trials for the conversion of sinners! 😉

    No Toad, I am not a masochist!
    And by the way, I did answer your question above…. and so did Rabit! Re-read our replies and think (for once) about what was said.

    In answer to your question about the fate of atheists, no one knows for sure. But God is Justice and Love, so they too will be judged according to their ‘works’ like everyone else. Though they may well need a period in Purgatory to ‘get to know’ the God they have denied in life.

    Shall be busy for the rest of the day…. ‘bye.

  33. Roger says:

    Fatima is a very rich vein of graces and depths. Never ever believe that you understand a work of God. All His works will exist for ever and you will never reach the bottom of discovery.
    The most familiar are the least understood! The Virgin Birth and the Nativity for instance you will never understand the depth of these mysteries.

    Toad asked a question
    “How can any limited creature ever merit an unlimited reward?”
    Well the question is well worthy of Fallen Adam and Eve because they wanted to be like God with the knowledge of Good and Evil. Well Heaven and Hell is the unlimited reward is it not!
    Toad always wants to replace God with His Judgements that are not new but actually go straight back to Genesis!
    Then comes the frustration of rejecting a God who doesn’t correspond to Man’s reasoning and rationality! Well this is why souls plunge themselves into Hell to get away from a God that they call unjust!
    Man and original Sin the Sin that has a domain of Flesh , which is a prison for the Spirit. Now this is Hell that the Flesh is the gaoler of the Spirit. That Flesh wants to kill the Spirit (Real Death).
    Flesh bemoans what Flesh has reaped , Pain, Suffering, Death.

    Man is Flesh, Spirit and Soul.
    Death separates these BUT at the Last Judgment they are reconsituted.
    Hell of the Vision of the children is in its present form! It is the furthest place that these Spirits, Man and Angels can get to distance themselves from God!
    Salvific History , New Heaven new Earth. Heaven was closed to Fallen man until Our Lord paid the price for Sin! BUT WE HAVE FREE WILL AND THIS MEANS SADLY THAT MEN CAN REJECT THE SALVATION OF OUR LORD.
    Free Will has No meaning without Heaven and Hell because there would be NO Choice!

    Salvific History is the restoration to man of what Adam and Eve lost through the new Adam (Our Lord) and the new Eve (Our Lady). So after the Last Judgement the serpent will be banned from tempting Man in other words excluded from Paradise. Man in his Free Will will commit himslef to God for ever! Then what happens to Iniquity?

    Toad your question is meaningless because it tries to Judge God.
    Mans reward is always limited!! Because he is a Creature!! always limited BUT this limitation is not a constraint it is because MAN ISN’T GOD!
    For the Blessed their Love will grow there contemplation of God will never come to an End because it is limitless,

    Sin is the Death of the Soul and the wages of Sin (which is rebellion against God) is to be separated (by choice) for Eternity

  34. Dan says:

    Roger, since you seem to know a lot about this sort of thing, perhaps you can answer my question: At the Last Judgment will everyone get new looking bodies, or will they look the same as before i.e. the ugly people and the good looking stay that way for eternity?

  35. Roger says:

    Dan
    The Saved are Glorified in Gods Sight.
    The Damned clearly Abominations in Gods Sight. Their appearance therefor is in accordance with the Eternal Destiny.

    What hangs over the modern era and its materialism and modernism (wealth of the Flesh) ? Well you can’t have this decadence and Heaven!!!
    Belloc pointed out that the Reformation was about Capitolism!
    Now what are these good things (the dictates of SELF) and this tyrant will lead to the flame of Hell!
    Fatima and the Vision of Hell points to modernism and materialism and NOTE the Marxist Revolution in Russia (Marx atheism) .

    Luke 16
    [19] There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day.
    [20] And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
    [21] Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’ s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores.
    [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’ s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
    [23] And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:
    [24] And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
    [25] And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

    Luke 18
    [24] And Jesus seeing him become sorrowful, said: How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God.
    [25] For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

  36. Toad says:

    Roger, I am normally the last – for excellent and obvious reasons – to pick up my friends on matters of spelling.
    But it is “Capitalism.” Which you cite frequently, no doubt with good reason.
    I hope this does not offend. It is not my intention to do so.

  37. Dan says:

    So will we look like what we did before we died or not – if not, how will we look, and why would our bodies look different if they are our bodies (or a reconstruction of them)?

  38. Toad says:

    You ask pertinent, but awkward questions, Dan. Will Quasimodo still have his hump in Heaven?
    If not, how are we supposed to recognise him?
    Our bodies are our personalities, for better or worse. No body, no personality.
    “Changed, Glorified,” body, changed, glorified, personality.
    I suppose. Don’t know.

  39. Dan says:

    yes Toad, our personalities are entwined with our appearance. If our replacement bodies don’t resemble our current ones, what’s the purpose of them??

  40. johnhenrycn says:

    Will Quasimodo still have his hump in Heaven?

    There’s an epic 1983 novel about WWII and post-WWII Italy called The Red Horse by the devout Catholic, Eugenio Corti. In the last chapter, there’s a scene in Heaven to which a young woman called “Alma” is taken by her Guardian Angels (she has two) after her car is forced over a cliff by a drug-addled motorist, where she sees “Marietta”, a woman she’d known years before as a worker in her father’s factory and who, while still on Earth, was exceedingly plain:

    It was Marietta, the ‘shuttle queen’ from the Riva mill, who so many times had accompanied Alma to church or on walks down Nomana’s cobblestoned streets…She no longer had that terrible wild hair and yellow skin or the bent legs. However – even though not in a material sense – she still retained the beautiful dark lamb’s eyes, which on Earth had always seemed out of place in her poor face. But now they fit perfectly with the rest of her – insubstantial – figure, which had in some way become in harmony with her eyes.

    Who can say for sure until we get to Heaven, but while “changed and glorified”, I think we’ll always be recognisable as the special individuals God created us to be. There’s that old saw about being born with the face God gave you, and dying with the face you deserve, but still being familiar to those who’ve known you at both ends of the spectrum. Think of people you knew in grade school, who you haven’t seen for perhaps 40 years or more, and how they are almost instantaneously known to you when your paths cross again at a class reunion or a funeral.

  41. Roger says:

    The Body is moulded on the Spirit. Bodies can lose arms legs etc. But these can be healed, sight can be restored. Look at the miracles and see that the broken and diseased etc can be cured. Remember it is in the Spirit that reflects God.
    How will be look? Easy it is the Glorified image that will be seen. The Flesh glorified by the Spirit. But if the Spirit is Dead then the Flesh takes on the image of the dead Spirit.

    The eyes are called for good reason the mirror of the soul.

    The mistake being made is to take Our Lord’s forgiveness for granted! There is No forgiveness without being truly sorry for Sin! If there is No sense of Sin and no sorrow and contrition then there is NO forgiveness.
    Man is doing blasphemy in Gods Sight and expects to be forgiven! No contrition NO amendment No forgiveness!
    What was Sin remains Sin. Hell is Eternity!! Eternity will never End.
    Man has Free Will but thats on in this world!

  42. johnhenrycn says:

    Roger, you’re one of a kind (or one of the few of a kind), and therefore special in God’s eyes; but really, your constant didacticism is a bore. Can you engage on a level other than that of a Sunday School teacher? Not that I’m any great shakes when it comes to entertaining people. Still, can you not try addressing your audience with something more personal than this canned tripe?

  43. johnhenrycn says:

    On that same note, Roger: in Finland, where half my forebearers hail from, the Metsa Tissue Company, has stopped selling toilet paper with anodyne biblical passages imprinted on them, such as: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    Go, and do thou likewise.
    Luke 10:37

  44. johnhenrycn says:

    Kathleen:
    I asked @22:11 on 14 May whether we “should we hope and pray that every human is saved?“, to which you replied: “Yes, I think this is what we are called to do as Christians.

    Does this not mean that all men will be saved, since our prayers are always granted:
    And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:13
    …which means, perhaps, that Hell is indeed empty, or eventually will or may be? So, “the prevailing idea among believers, that everyone will end up in Heaven one day no matter how they live their lives, is totally false” is, perhaps, not false at all, if we pray for the repose of the souls of wicked men, which, as you say “we are called to do as Christians“?
    ___
    I don’t know how you expect to walk 70 miles between Friday and Sunday, but my hopes and prayers are with you, and – as you know – our prayers are always answered 😉

  45. Toad says:

    “…and – as you know -our prayers are always answered.”

    Often on pilgrimages with, “Shut up, and keep walking.”

    (Seven hours a day, three miles an hour. Approx. Quite tough. But I regard Kathleen as plenty tough enough.)

  46. kathleen says:

    JH, our prayers are always answered – yes, that‘s true – but as we well know from experience, they are not always answered in the way we expect. And yet God hears the prayers of His children and will give them the ‘bread’ they need, and that will do them good, rather than the ‘stone’ they are naively asking for, which would be detrimental. How many people pray to win the lottery, be granted beauty, fame and success, or any other desires of their heart? Desires that may well do their souls harm, although they may not realise it at the time.

    Here’s an example: I have some wonderful Catholic friends who have been yearning and praying for a baby ever since they got married. That desired child has not been granted them, and now seems unlikely to ever happen…. but one could say: “Surely this is a good thing to ask for; they would be wonderful parents! How can God not grant them their wish?”
    No one knows “the ways of the Lord”, but what is quite clear is that this couple (well known in the Catholic world here, so I won’t mention their names) would not be able to do the enormous amount of good for the Church that they are currently doing, leading many souls to God, if they had to dedicate themselves to domestic life and the rearing of children. (As parents ourselves, we know full well how demanding babies and young children are on our time and energy! ;-))

    Every time we pray the ‘Our Father’ we say: “Thy Will be Done…” We acknowledge that whatever we think is right and fitting, only those things that are also in accordance with the Divine Will will be granted. Yet our prayer will not go unanswered, as God will grant us some other surprising grace or blessing instead that quite often, in hindsight, we can see was far better for our soul’s welfare than what we were begging for. Have you not seen that for yourself? I have.

    When we ask, as we should, for souls to be saved from Hell, the necessary graces will be given to some needy sinner to be converted. We shall meet these many grateful souls in Heaven one day! (And the ones who probably saved us beforehand!!!)
    To ask that everyone be saved is a bit greedy…. dontcha think? 😉

    Many heartfelt thanks to you and Toad for your good wishes and prayers for Chartres.

  47. Dan says:

    But if our reinstated bodies are not our original bodies (the ones assembled through our own lives), but are reconstructed with different matter and not really looking like our original bodies, What is the point of having them??

  48. Toad says:

    “To ask that everyone be saved is a bit greedy…. dontcha think?”

    NO, Kathleen.
    In fact, to entertain the prospect of anyone, however awful and “God-hating” they might be – being subjected to eternal and unspeakable torment is too unpleasant to be rationally contemplated by sane people, I would have thought.
    Clearly I’m wrong, however.
    And going soft, as well as stupid.

  49. kathleen says:

    Dan, I don’t really understand your question. Our resurrected bodies (not “reinstated”) are glorified bodies… without blemish, sickness, or open to corruption (like our earthly bodies were), but they are still us. I agree it is a mystery, but we have the example of Our Blessed Lord’s Resurrection to give us a clue or two.
    ______

    Well Toad, I was sort of joking with JH (referring to his comment) and so ‘greedy’ is not really the right word. To say salvation for everyone is not ‘realistic’, would be better. Allows for those who make the choice (horrific and tragic as it would be) to not be with God for Eternity.

    That “unspeakable torment” of Hell, you so rightly describe, is the absence of God. There is no physical pain so great as that of suffering the absence of God. That is what Hell is: utter despair because of the loss of God. We were created to be happy with God for all Eternity… and those who choose to shut the doors of their heart on His Love can never know peace nor joy.

  50. Dan says:

    Kathleen, in what sense would those resurrected bodies be our bodies?
    “those who choose to shut the doors of their heart on His Love” Is it choice or misguidance?

  51. Toad says:

    Maybe there’s some as yet unnamed “place” where people go who don’t particularly want to be saved, (because they might be bored) and yet who don’t deserve eternal Hell. (Nobody, does, or could – I think – as you must know by now, but we must surely let that go.)

    Maybe they could call the other place “Limbo,” or possibly “Surbition.”

    Although I think they tried Limbo and It got no takers. But I might be wrong.

  52. Roger says:

    Dan the confusion is over the conscious part that is Man. Modern science says Man is just flesh and his conscious is also flesh (part of his brain) he dies conscious dies.
    But your flesh is the prison of your spirit and soul.
    Your Body Flesh is changing all the time, eat , drinking, aging etc.. But your Spirit is fed by God and longs for God. The Flesh is the slave of its appetites. The World, The Flesh and The Devil is a wise way to look at the consequences of Original Sin.
    Glorified Man is as God created Man – (Adam before the Fall. )
    Salvific History is the regaining of what was Lost and more because Now Heaven has been opened through Our Lords Passion. The Mass is a continuation of the Passion and is the perpetual sacrifice. If the Mass were to cease the world would be destroyed.
    Forgiveness of Sin Yes! But there is a price to be paid the saved do this in Penance on Earth and or Pugatory. Hell isn’t Penance! Purgatory is Penance lovingly and willingly done.
    Hell there is NO reparation, NO contrition, it will never END.
    God is Eternal and so are His works.
    Praying for the poor sinner Yes!! But if the sinner in Free Will rejects Gods Graces! doesn’t do penance and contrition for Sins then how can they be saved?
    Those in Hell HATE! Those in Pugatory and Heaven LOVE.
    There is NO Free Will choice in HELL , the time for chosing is then over.
    As for other places? Well there is still Paradise off course. The bosom of Abraham existed until Our Lord opened Heaven.

  53. Frere Rabit says:

    The idea that hell does not exist is quite absurd. I experience it every week on Wednesday in Period 8 Geography with Year 11. The idea of suffering that for eternity is quite sobering.

  54. Frere Rabit says:

    Kathleen, when you are in Chartres go down into the crypt and see the statue of the Queen of Judea. She was originally placed on the great West door, but removed due to corrosion and replaced by a replica. If you do go down there and see her, say a prayer for me, for that is my favourite place of Old Testament pilgrimage, just as the statue of Our Lady of Chartres is the place of Marian pilgrimage. The mysterious idea of this anonymous “Queen of Judea” is as intriguing as the statue itself is beautiful. Chartres Cathedral taught me the Old Testament.

  55. Toad says:

    “Modern science says Man is just flesh and his conscious is also flesh (part of his brain) he dies conscious dies.”

    Utter nonsense, Roger. Do you assume modern science doesn’t acknowledge music, or mathematics, for example?

    Or else thinks that music and mathematics are ‘flesh?’

  56. Toad says:

    Incidentally, isn’t it the case that whenever ‘science’ is mentioned on CP&S, it’s almost invariably preceded by the word ‘modern.’?

    It’s as if we all yearn for the good old-fashioned, God-fearing science of water mills, gas lamps and steam engines.
    When we all knew what it all meant.

  57. Roger says:

    Well now Modern Science has its origins in Alchemy and indeed seances (Dr Dee). The Enlightenment and Protestantism flowing from the throwing off of the constraints of the Church. It wasn’t the poor and uneducated was it? No it was the rich and idle. Capitolism and Communism and many isms flowed from 16th century.
    The French Revolution was especially Anti Christian and this spawned the Irish Nationalism and especially the Russian Revolution. Behind these we will find MONEY and investment for gain. The Russian Revolution? Trotsky with Wall Street Money and Lenin Swiss.
    Hitler again Wall Street (including Prescott Bush , Grandfather of Bush) . Now Hitler and modern science saw huge leaps especially in medicine!
    Private wealth without the checks and constraints of Christ? Well what did Satan Tempt Our Lord with?
    Modern Science and Politics, Economics and indeed Philosophy (especially the Hegel variety that lead to Marx!) we find Money! Eduction and the fruits of throwing off the shackles of Christ!

    Dr Dee was into seances (he was protected by Elizabeth I ) . We see coming out of the educated and idle wealth (NOT THE POOR) of Protestant Europe Science!!

    Now what is Truth? Especially Eternity Hell and Heaven and who can tell Us how to get there?
    Lets start with an eternal Truth. The rejection by the world of Christ who would rather believe the Father of Lies.

    John 8
    [42] Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me:
    [43] Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word.
    [44] You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
    [45] But if I say the truth, you believe me not.
    [46] Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me? [47] He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.

    Next the way to the Heavenly Father
    Chapter 14
    [6] Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

    Think again of St Paul and the road to Damascus when Our Lord identified with His Mystical Body the Church! The Church and Christ are One! Next what did the Apostles Believe? St paul was persecuting the Apostles Church.
    “..Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae, ..”
    CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH!

    Now for the lineage of Our Lord back to Adam (in the very books that Our Lord quoted from ) Our Lady lineage also since she is Our Lords Mother. As she is also Our Mother we to have a lineage back to Adam and Eve!

    Matthew 1
    [1] The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

    So we are back to Abraham! also Abram now we trace Abram from an ancestor before the Flood Sem!

    Genesis 11
    [10] These are the generations of Sem: Sem was a hundred years old when he begot Arphaxad, two years after the flood.
    [9] Babel: That is, confusion.
    [11] And Sem lived after he begot Arphaxad, five hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. [12] And Arphaxad lived thirty-five years, and begot Sale.
    [13] And Arphaxad lived after he begot Sale, three hundred and three years; and begot sons and daughters.
    [14] Sale also lived thirty years, and begot Heber.
    [15] And Sale lived after he begot Heber, four hundred and three years; and begot sons and daughters.
    [16] And Heber lived thirty-four years, and begot Phaleg.
    [17] And Heber lived after he begot Phaleg, four hundred and thirty years: and begot sons and daughters.
    [18] Phaleg also lived thirty years, and begot Reu.
    [19] And Phaleg lived after he begot Reu, two hundred and nine years, and begot sons and daughters.
    [20] And Reu lived thirty-two years, and begot Sarug.
    [21] And Reu lived after he begot Sarug, two hundred and seven years, and begot sons and daughters.
    [22] And Sarug lived thirty years, and begot Nachor.
    [23] And Sarug lived after he begot Nachor, two hundred years: and begot sons and daughters.
    [24] And Nachor lived nine and twenty years, and begot Thare.
    [25] And Nachor lived after he begot Thare, a hundred and nineteen years: and begot sons and daughters.
    [26] And Thare lived seventy years, and begot Abram, and Nachor, and Aran.
    [27] And these are the generations of Thare: Thare begot Abram, Nachor, and Aran. And Aran begot Lot.

    Now for SEM Lineage
    Genesis 5
    [1] This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God.
    [2] He created them male and female; and blessed them: and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
    [3] And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son to his own image and likeness, and called his name Seth.
    [4] And the days of Adam, after he begot Seth, were eight hundred years: and he begot sons and daughters.
    [5] And all the time that Adam lived came to nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.
    [6] Seth also lived a hundred and five years, and begot Enos.
    [7] And Seth lived after he begot Enos, eight hundred and seven years, and begot sons and daughters.
    [8] And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years, and he died. [9] And Enos lived ninety years, and begot Cainan.
    [10] After whose birth he lived eight hundred and fifteen years, and begot sons and daughters.
    [11] And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years, and he died.
    [12] And Cainan lived seventy years, and begot Malaleel.
    [13] And Cainan lived after he begot Malaleel, eight hundred and forty years, and begot sons and daughters.
    [14] And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years, and he died.
    [15] And Malaleel lived sixty-five years, and begot Jared.
    [16] And Malaleel lived after he begot Jared, eight hundred and thirty years, and begot sons and daughters.
    [17] And all the days of Malaleel were eight hundred and ninety -five years, and he died.
    [18] And Jared lived a hundred and sixty-two years, and begot Henoch.
    [19] And Jared lived after he begot Henoch, eight hundred years, and begot sons and daughters.
    [20] And all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years, and he died.
    [21] And Henoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Mathusala.
    [22] And Henoch walked with God: and lived after he begot Mathusala, three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters.
    [23] And all the days of Henoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
    [24] And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him.
    [25] And Mathusala lived a hundred and eighty-seven years, and begot Lamech.
    [26] And Mathusala lived after he begot Lamech, seven hundred and eighty-two years, and begot sons and daughters.
    [27] And all the days of Mathusala were nine hundred and sixty-nine years, and he died.
    [28] And Lamech lived a hundred and eighty-two years, and begot a son. [29] And he called his name Noe, saying: This same shall comfort us from the works and labours of our hands on the earth, which the Lord hath cursed.
    [30] And Lamech lived after he begot Noe, five hundred and ninety-five years, and begot sons and daughters.
    [31] And all the days of Lamech came to seven hundred and seventy-seven years, and he died. And Noe, when he was five hundred years old, begot Sem, Cham, and Japheth.

    The Apostles believed in Man Created by God. Our Lord and Our Lady that man was created.
    Now for Evolutin
    “..Evolutionary theory begins with the Ionian philosopher Anaximander ..”
    Nothing new here is there??

    But does Evolution lead man to God the father?
    Finally the College Library idea is the growth of learning passed from generations. Music and Maths , economics, Industrial Revolution (which was Central Bank and Investment driven Capitolism) are growing in worldly advancements to create a Heaven on Earth! But yesterdays Science advances are todays Green House issues. Tomorrows problems will be the Sciences of today!

  58. Guest says:

    Just as you dispose of a rotten fruit because it no longer is edible (it’s primary purpose for why you bought it) so to is a rotten man disposed–the primary end of man is to be with God. All sin is a turning away from that end. But unlike how we treat inanimate object, God gives each man a lifetime to return back with threats, warnings, consolations, sufferings, healings, miracles. Man does not exist for his own purposes and to do whatever he pleases. His Creator is not some pagan god who is just a man with superpowers but the One who made all things for a reason. Unlike a pagan He can neither lie nor be deceived. If He says there is a hell there is a hell. You may wish for chance to enjoy a little, get punished a little, then enjoy heaven forever, but morality is binding and God will let you waste your life if you so choose.

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