Documents of Vatican II – clear as mud?

When Bishop Athanasius Schneider called for a “Syllabus of Errors” to clarify the documents of the Second Vatican Council, we blogged about it here.

Now Michael Voris considers Cardinal Walter Kasper’s recent suggestion that these documents contained deliberate ambiguities:

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10 Responses to Documents of Vatican II – clear as mud?

  1. Toad says:

    “Deliberate ambiguities,” smacks of paranoia to Toad.

    Ambiguity in copy is generally obvious and almost invariably accidental. (Except, maybe in the case of Hegel.)
    Offhand, I also suspect that writing in a deliberately ambiguous fashion is considerably more difficult than writing straightforwardly.
    But I’ve never tried it myself, and suppose anything’s possible.
    Obscurity is something else.
    Toad’s quite good at that.

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  2. Robert Devi says:

    Toad, the exact claim is that the Vatican II documents contain both the majority statement and descenting statement side by side, making it appear that both are equally valid. Such a technique is much easier to write than simply resolving the issue or determining if there is some nuance not included in the majority statement. This doesn’t strike me as paranoid since it is standard policy in some countries (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine ). As stated, that side by side approach leads to a “you decide” attitude that leads to polarization.

    As for the validity of the statement, it’s pretty easy to prove either way. All one needs to do is look through the Vatican II documents and point out all such statements. If they make up a significant portion of the statements in Vatican II, it’s clear that either incompetence or some someone with an agenda is at work.

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  3. Toad says:

    What you say makes sound good sense, Robert. So, I will say no more for the present. This topic is of course, at the very heart of CP&S.

    Although, I’m not dissuaded from the ‘paranoid’ suspicion by your assurance that it is .. “standard policy in some countries.” Rather the reverse, on fact.
    But this is a tricky one. And the “side by side, ” accounts, with a “you decide” outcome in mind, will surely each be unambiguous?

    For example,

    1: Gay Marriage is good.
    2: Gay Marriage is bad.

    Both unambiguous. You decide.

    Of course, what’s needed here is an example of proposed “deliberate ambiguity” from the actual Vatican ll text. That would fix things. No doubt someone will swiftly provide it.

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  4. Frere Rabit says:

    “Deliberate ambiguities,” smacks of paranoia to Toad.

    But Toad is not setting the agenda, thanks be to God, and there are real issues here which should not be subjected to the usual dreary CPS wipe-out by inane commenting. The Michael Voris video sets out the case quite forcefully and I have checked all the references. The fact that Cardinal Kasper himself is making these statements is astonishing. He is the last person I would ever have thought to come clean on the whole fudge.

    I have mentioned here several times in the past on this blog that I was fortunate enough to have known and conversed with three protestant observers who were present at Vatican II, David Sheppard (Test cricketer and bishop), Brother Roger Shutz of Taize, and Max Thurian (the Taize protestant theologian who converted to Catholicism). Each one of them independently explained to me how protestant theology and ecclesiology were inserted into the Vatican II project. As observers, right there in the sessions, they were amazed to see it happening because they had not expected the Catholic Church to give so much ground to protestant thinking.

    If Cardinal Kasper belatedly concedes that the waters were muddied, he is rather late coming into the confessional. The game was been entirely exposed long ago. Maybe an old man has a lot on his conscience and is finally seeing the damage that was done.

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  5. Roger says:

    Emmerich
    “..I saw that everything pertaining to Protestantism was gradually gaining the upperhand, and the Catholic religion fell into complete decadence. ..”
    “..In those days, Faith will fall very low, and it will be preserved in some places only, in a few cottages and in a few families which God has protected from disasters and wars ,,”

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  6. Toad says:

    “…and I have checked all the references.”
    …So you can no doubt give us an example or two of “Deliberate ambiguity” then, Rabit?
    Excellent.

    “…the usual dreary CPS wipe-out by inane commenting.”
    No need to be so hard on yourself, Rabit.

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  7. kathleen says:

    Thanks Rabit, for your very revealing comment, however scandalised and anxious it must make all honest Catholics! Especially this sentence:

    As observers, right there in the sessions, they [the Protestant observers you refer to] were amazed to see it happening because they had not expected the Catholic Church to give so much ground to protestant thinking.”

    This must be the very “smoke of Satan” that infiltrated into the Church at the time of the Council that Pope Paul VI spoke of. It explains so much of what went wrong in the aftermath: Satan was squeezing in through the gates!!

    Without any intention of offending sincere Christian followers of other churches, Protestanism as a body is clearly wrong (as its very name suggests) and is a rebellion against Truth. Not one of the Protestant leaders was divinely inspired to do what they did – break away from the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter. Without the promised guidance of the Holy Spirit – given only to Peter and his successors – the truth of their teachings was no longer guaranteed.

    That some of this evil should seep into the Catholic Church is very tragic, but we know this has been the case when we look at so much that was ruined by the Protestant ideology.
    However – very important – Jesus told us not to ever despair. He told us that the “gates of Hell shall not prevail against Her (His Church)”. Who can doubt that the tide has turned now – yes, even in Europe – and though the thorough necessary ‘spring-cleaning’ and revival may be something we shall not live to see, we should work towards this end with peace in our hearts. It will come.

    “Jesus, I trust in You”.

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  8. Roger says:

    The distinguishing feature of Pius XII reign was
    1/ He was very strict
    2/ He obeyed Heaven promptly and without regard to the consequences. We see this with Fatima and the Dogma of the Assumption and Maria Valtortas works (that he personally read). He was the Pope of the Bomb and the spread of Communism (Eastern Bloc after WW II)
    3/ He was know to be a mystic (much hasn’t been revealed)
    He died in October 1958 thats the month of the Holy Rosary and the miracle of Fatima.

    The Third secret was to be opened by 1960 (as heaven had fortold WW II in the reign of Pius XI its self evident that Heaven saw the world of 1950/60’s) remember Fatima has the In the End My Immaculate Heart will Triumph!
    Now Father Malachy Martin was known to have read the Third Secret but was under an oath of silence not to directly reveal its contents. He said that John XXIII had read it and said NOT FOR OUR TIME.
    Malachy Martin in 1990’s was openly talking of Masses which were invalid and a distinction between the Institution of Rome and the Church.
    He said that the power of the Papacy had been curtailed and even that the four major Orders Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans and Carmelites were actually is disobedience to the Pope.
    The Third secret he said was dire and unpleasant reading and there was more than one chasticement. He spoke of global systems breaking down (think of Great Depression and the Financial Collapse and current Austerity).
    He also spoke of Anti Christ the one who would have all the answers.

    Also in 1960’s lists were published of Curia memebers who were Masons.
    He also said that in 1963 29th June that Satan had been Enthroned in Vatican
    “.. Windswept House: A Vatican Novel (1996). In this story, he vividly described a ceremony called “The Enthronement of the Fallen Archangel Lucifer” supposedly held in St. Paul’s Chapel in the Vatican, but linked with concurrent satanic rites here in the U.S., on June 29, 1963, barely a week after the election of Paul VI. In the novel, before he dies, a pope leaves a secret account of the situation on his desk for the next occupant of the throne of Peter, a thinly-disguised John Paul II.
    According to The New American, Martin confirmed that the ceremony did indeed occur as he had described.
    “Oh yes, it is true; very much so,” the magazine reported he said. “But the only way I could put that down into print is in novelistic form.”
    Martin’s accusation of a satanic ritual at the Vatican was also confirmed by John Loeffler, host of the Steel on Steel radio show. Mr. Loeffler personally asked Fr. Malachi Martin (who had been a regular guest on his show) about the reported dedication to satan within the Vatican:
    “You know Malachi confirmed—the first part of his book, Windswept House—he confirmed the dedication of the Vatican to satan in a secret ceremony that occurred unknown even to the Pope at that time, that he managed to pick up. And I did ask him, ‘Was this true? Did it happen?’ And he [Fr. Martin] said, ‘yes, it did.'”
    ..”

    Now that puts a completely different perspective on Garabandal and Our Lady’s messages especially as given by St Michael.

    Why I have come onto these blogs is because I believe we are seeing the start of Persecution of the Faith (sic Gay Laws and calling Catholics Right Wing Extremists [ same was said of Spain at the time of the Spainish Civil War]).
    Emmerich had the name Babel!! This is an indication and a warning!
    If this is the Case then the Purgation of the Church is inevitable! This will not be pleasent and consider that the Church relies on Charity (surplus monies ) and look at the Austerity and lack of surplus monies.
    Its a wake up call. Vatican II raises the question of God’s Council and Man’s. This Blog and references more than indicates two diametrically opposite versions of this Council does it Not?

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  9. golden chersonnese says:

    Russell Shaw is always seriously worth a read and has style too. Toad will know.

    Here he is on Vatican II for instance:

    http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/rshaw/05291.html

    And many of his articles to be seen here:

    http://www.catholicherald.com/category/shaw/browse.html

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  10. Roger says:

    The Third Secret of Fatima is inseparable from what has happened or not happened since October 1958, we can say this confidently because of the specific year 1960 for when the secret was to be read,
    What hasn’t happened is the Bishops in Union haven’t expressly and singularly Consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart! 53 years later still hasn’t been done except in oblique round about ways.
    The changes associated with Vatican II and as the Blog says the documents are the undeniable source of division and not union.
    Pope Jphn XXIII was elected in October 1958 and the Council was called January 25th 1959.
    It is said that John XXIII had the Third Secret delivered to him and read on 17th August 1959.
    On 2nd August 1960 from the Vatican
    “Although the Church recognizes the Fatima apparitions, She does not desire to take the responsibility of guaranteeing the veracity of the words the three shepherd children said that the Virgin Mary had addressed to them.”
    However we have Akita
    “..As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves,the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all of humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the Deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only weapons which will remain for you will be the rosary and the Sign left by my Son. Each day recite the prayers of the rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops, and the priests.

    “The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres … churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord. ..”
    Akita has been approved.
    Now has Vatican II unified or has it created fractures?

    “..On 9/10/84, Bishop Amaral of Leira, Portugal, declared in the great hall of the Technical University in Vienna,
    “The Secret of Fatima speaks neither of atomic bombs nor of nuclear warheads, nor of SS20 missiles. Its content concerns only our faith. To identify the secret with catastrophic announcements or a nuclear holocaust is to distort the meaning of the message. The loss of faith of a continent is worse than the annihilation of a nation; and it is true that the faith is continually diminishing in Europe.”
    Fr Alonso’s thesis is now publicly confirmed by the Bishop of Fatima. The message foretells a terrible crisis within the Church. It is the loss of the faith, which the Immaculate Virgin predicted would occur in our era, if her requests were not sufficiently carried out. This loss of faith and all it entails is the drama that we have been witnessing since 1960. ..”

    Look at Europe and the Loss of Faith. The Laws which are being enacted?
    Simply put place Vatican II on a scale alongside the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart now ask a simply question.
    What has Heaven asked for as a condition of Peace? The Council? or the Consecration?What did Heaven make the more important? Then look at the fruits!

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