Ches sums up the impact of the Papal interviews:
The most visible wreckage lies in the confusion, disillusion and demoralization of faithful men and women – small ones and those at the very top of the Church’s life – whose battles against the culture of death or with the perversity of post Vatican II liberal Catholicism was travestied by Francis’s radically ahistorical portrayal of the Church as doctrinally obsessive, imbalanced and small minded. The applause which the enemies of the Church have given to the interviews – crowned in the last coupe of days by a warm appraisal from that enemy of the unborn and of the Church’s freedom Barack Obama – has only been a liberal rubbing of salt in a wound inflicted primarily by the hands of the Holy Father. As far as they are concerned, the Church at last has a cool, likeable pope, who can speak their language. The fact that that language then appears to many thoughtful Catholics to evoke not a popularised version of the faith à la Fulton Sheen – that we could understand and cheer loudly – but one that misrepresents everything from the nature of conscience to the eschaton, makes us shake our heads in wonder and disgust.
His review of the mood among commentators is well worth a read too, and can be found here.
Reblogged this on Catholic Glasses and commented:
You got that right. Couldn’t have said it better.
As one commentator put it, “the pope has the world’s attention.” And personally, I think he’s using that attention to change the world, not the Church. Yes, “we should just wait and see and pray.”
And when we do, I think all of us – even those of us, like me, who are traditional, conservative Catholics – will be pleasantly surprised at what happens.
My opinion on Pope Francis keeps changing and then coming back to the same thing that I thought when he was first elected: I honestly cannot work out what Pope Francis is all about but I do know the only that the only thing I can do to help this impossible situation is to pray that God’s will be done and that *I* accept what His will is.
“We do not pray in order that we may change God’s will; rather, we pray to change our own.” Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
I think Francis is a Pope of surprises, and as a believer in the God of surprises, this seems meet to me.
I am still having a very hard time with what he said in the interview. It just doesn’t make sense to say something like that, whether he’s trying to get the worlds attention or not. Why say (in so many words)……”the church needs to stop obsessing on abortion, homosexuality, contraception”….when most clergy and most Catholics ARE NOT obsessing on it ???
I’m still waiting for him to “clarify” what he said, especially since he knows that the liberals are happy with what he said, and are now “more so” thinking that those are not important issues.
I think we need to be praying that he “does” clarify himself, even though I don’t really know how much he could clarify it……if that makes any sense. Deep down I strongly believe that he made a BIG BIG MISTAKE. I just cannot imagine that God is happy with what he said.
alohalady14 (nice name and avatar, btw 😉 says: “I am still having a very hard time with what he said in the interview. It just doesn’t make sense…”
“To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.” Lk. 8:10
“To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables.” Mk. 4:11
“I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.” Jn. 16:12
I’m of the same mind as Burrito and RJB on this. Pope Francis, Vicar of Christ, is full of surprises and, at the end of the day, I think we will be pleasantly surprised. Let’s hope and pray with confidence (not doubtfully or with skepticism, which defeats the purpose of prayer) that it will be so.
So lonely in the Canadian blogosphere this time of day – what with Gertrude getting ready for morning Mass at the Abbey, and Toad cleaning his catheter, and Golden adjusting her head scarf hoping to escape the critical eye of some of her co-citizens when going out to collect eggs from the chicken coop…it gave me pause. A time to reflect upon the many happy times we’ve had together, both here and on the other (now in extremis) blog. I remember The Raven commenting with his customary erudition well over four years ago. Brother Burrito, nowhere near as long as that, although his twin brother, Mystic Mug (RIP), was online back then with equal wisdom to offer. Teresa… and then Golden arriving in mid-2009 with a wonderful YouTube link to a Filipino (I think) Mass, and me being the very first to welcome her as a valuable member of We Happy Few. Gertrude came a bit later, and then Joyful, Kathleen, MMVC, Shane, and (yes) Carter and Mundabor… There was also a really weird rabbit and an equally weird retired classified ads editor, both born in Spain (hee, hee)… but never mind. Over four years of golden memories. Apologies if I’ve got my chronology mixed up or have missed anyone from back then. In tribute to those 4+ years…
Toad had to look up ‘catheter’ – thought it sounded religious . Mixed it up with ‘catechism.’
And somebody else is welcome to clean that up.
However, re JH’s almost-coherent shamble down ‘Memory Lane,’ does anybody know what happened to Joyful Papist? I liked her. But she has vanished from her own blog for months now, without explanation.
Heavens – Mundabor hated* Toad! Almost as much as Omvent did.
*Good old CP&S word.
Don’t feel so bad about Mundabor. He may have hated you, but he corrected me once – when I said ad nauseum. Who has the greater grievance I ask you?
btw…I NEVER give Thumbs Down on this blog, so the one given to Toady wasn’t from me.
… but I have inserted many catheters and, back in my day, better at it than most GPs 😉
I’m feeling frisky tonight and have to ask our medical man whether “3H Enema” – something I occasionally had to administer
at Kingston Penetentiary– is an expression used in the UK?
…Kingston Penitentiary actually. Please forgive my spelling, Mundabor, if you’re there.
Not to forget either gathering up my steaming fresh kopi luwak lying under the palm trees, JH.
Yes it’s been an exciting 3 or 4 years, and God bless everyone, JH, even Toad. And thanks aplenty to the CP&S team.
Toad often gives himself the thumbs down. Did above And here.
Why? Because he can.
Rebrites e-mailed me saying she’s the one who gave you that thumbs down. Liar, pants…
“Why? Because he can.” Please spare us these sophomoric allusions to dog genitals.
Rabits is not weird, only you is weird.
Can we share that appellation, brother?
Whoever gave the “thumbs down” to my comment at 10:02, I apologise for my unintended offence.
Well now are we about to see Emmerich’s church of popular liberalism which was expressly identified by the relationships between two living Popes?
Was Toad who did it, of course – JH – but only as part of what he took to be a running ‘joke,’ and he had taken no offence, nor intended to give any.
“Brentano’s writings on Emmerich says she believed that Noah’s son Ham was the progenitor of “the black, idolatrous, stupid nations” of the world. The “Dolorous Passion” also reveals a “clear anti-semitic strain throughout”, with Brentano writing that Emmerich believed that, “Jews…strangled Christian children and used their blood for all sorts of suspicious and diabolical practices”
In 1892 when the case for Anne Catherine’s beatification was submitted to the Vatican, a number of experts in Germany began to compare and analyze Brentano’s original notes from his personal library with the books he had written.The analysis of Brentano’s personal library, after his death by experts in Germany revealed various apocryphal biblical sources, maps and travel guides among his papers which could have been used to enhance the narrations by Emmerich.
In 1923, in his theological thesis, German priest Winfried Hümpfner, who had compared Brentano’s original notes to the published books, wrote that Clemens Brentano had fabricated much of the material he had attributed to Emmerich.
By 1928 the experts had come to the conclusion that only a small portion of Brentano’s books could be safely attributed to Emmerich.” (Wikki)
Or has Toad simply got the wrong Emmerich, Roger? (He can find no other.)
Emmerich was beautified on 3rd October 2004. Previously she was declared Venerable in 1892. The Bible itself includes extracts from Apocryphal sources. Lets be absolutely clear here that a seer/prophet doesn’t make anybody a saint. So no surprises here Toad. However in Emmerich’s case her Life’s work of course were her visions.
Bretano of course could equally be interpreted as studiously trying to validate Emmerich’s visions.
These works have the imprimatur which the Qu’ran doesn’t. The Church permits them to be read. They are private revelation but then so is Fatima. Now the 3rd secret vision published in 2000 is remarkably like a Emmerich crib.
Emmerich anti-semetic? No Toad the Gospels are semetic are they not? Isn’t the Bible itself semetic? Sadly and undeniable there was a decisive split in the semetic world from which came Christianity.
But Toad the list of papal encyclicals dealing with jews is extensive. These are just some of the many examples.
from Gregory I Sicut judaeis non 598 to Benedict XIV Beatus Andreas Feb. 22, 1755.
Sixtus IV Numquam dubitavimus 1482
I think that you are trying to condemn Benedict XIV Beatus Andreas rather than Emmerich.
La salette couldn’t be more specifically critical of liberalism.
Its pretty obvious that Emmerich’s vision of a Liberal church expressly mentioning a relationship between two Popes should invite Prophetic interest.
It is, I suggest, true, Roger – that Jews are often no better behaved even than Muslims or Christians.
“Bretano of course could equally be interpreted as studiously trying to validate Emmerich’s visions.”
Brentano, of course, like anyone, can be interpreted exactly how it suits the reader to do so.
That is the point. In my opinion. And it would be very unwise for me to condemn anyone.
Except Masons, of course.
This is just my two-cents. Pope Francis’s views could work in favour of the church. Obama Care has cut services for children with emotional disorders, so they can grow up to be juvenile delinquents and fill our prisons. The money is being saved to spend on contraception and abortion instead.
The next time someone in the church pushes for gay marriage or women priests, just tell them that there are other issues, and not to be so obsessive.
The LCWR leadership gave my community a hard time because they would not support their pet causes.
It’s not the church that’s obsessed.
Pope Francis also supports the reform of the LCWR, something liberals are not happy about.
“The next time someone in the church pushes for gay marriage or women priests, just tell them that there are other issues, and not to be so obsessive.”
How good to hear from SDRC. We were all thinking of you. Good to have you back!
It is my impression that “gay marriage” and “women priests” obsess a great many Traditional Catholics, in the most boring way possible.
Nobody else gives a rat’s hind quarters whether priests are gay, or women, or what.
Might be wrong, of course.
And SDRC herself, clearly agrees and is cool about it all.
Obsess? Us? No way!
“Obama Care has cut services for children with emotional disorders, so they can grow up to be juvenile delinquents and fill our prisons.”
Well, we have got to fill the prisons somehow. Prison guards have to make a living.
And that is the whole point of Obama Care – isn’t it? Filling prisons with juveniles. Right.
The God-Fearing Republicans will save America from a decent health system, though. And so they should.
Well without digressing to much from the intriguing current scenario that I suggest is still unfolding. The position over Emmerich is beautifully dealt with in the following.
Thank you Toad for seeking clarification.
The position reference the Jews (thats only one of the 12 tribes note!) is very different because the early Christians suffered by association with what was a very troublesome Roman Provence.
One of the reasons for Roman problems was the Jewish knowledge of the Messianic Prophecy’s they were expecting a Messiah.
Their position is very different from Islam Toad. There are a significant number of papal Encyclicals that deal expressly with the Jews.
Sarcasm becomes you.
“It is my impression that “gay marriage” and “women priests” obsess a great many Traditional Catholics, in the most boring way possible.”
They obsesses some. The rest do not want them, and do not like others pushing for them.
“And that is the whole point of Obama Care – isn’t it? Filling prisons with juveniles. Right.”
What makes you think I want juveniles in prison, given the fact that most of them have learning and emotional disorders are are quite gifted and would have a much better outcome, if helped in time.
The whole point of Obama Care is saving, money, by outlining priorities, that do not cover everybody. It’s only affordable for some.
P.S. I never claimed to be Republican. I am quite the opposite on economic issues, but they are right about this one.
JH @ 5:23 yesterday
Thanks JH, that was a pleasant little nostalgic look back at how we all (sort of) met up. “I remember it well”, :-).
There were a few other regular great Catholic defenders around in those days too: Jabbapapa and OTSOTA (“onthesideoftheangels”), Hamish Redux, Herecletian, Marie Elena etc. (to name just a few). Some are still doing their bit around the blogsphere, but others have, sadly, disappeared it seems.
It’s good to see you here again. I hope all goes well for you in your new life?
You misunderstand me Srdc. I did not suggest for a moment you wanted juveniles in prison, any more than I claimed that you are a Republican.
Perish the thoughts!
And, if it was the custom to jail people with learning and emotional disorders, we’d all be doing porridge, wouldn’t we?
Is Srdc a Republican?
Might as well ask, “Is the Pope a Protestant?”…which is, when you come to think about it, what a lot of people actually are asking.
So maybe I ought to re-phrase that.
But what the hey.
Roger, I read with interest the Catholic Culture link.
What most caught my interest was the fact that Emmerich’s undoubted and undisputed anti-Semitism gets not a word of acknowledgement – or comment.
The dog that did not bark!
“Lets be absolutely clear here that a seer/prophet doesn’t make anybody a saint. So no surprises here Toad. However in Emmerich’s case her Life’s work of course were her visions.”
But isn’t making her a saint exactly what it’s all about, Roger?
Thanks Kathleen. Yes, Things are going quite well out here. There’s a lot am learning about myself, the faith, and others.
Emmerich wasn’t the author of what she reported. All that can be asked of a seer is verbatim reporting. Your observation is directed against the author not the agent.
Remember Emmerich’s works have been published with imprimatur for over a century, There are some remarkable Prophecy’s for these times. If you are interested Our Lady of Good Success
Actually the general Apostacy is in the New Testament and the sorry state of Western Christianity was spoken off at the last Conclave.
The Past has already been judged. But consider this gay comes from gaudy (Showy in a tasteless or vulgar way)
As for the Popes and the Jews, well there are encyclicals against heretic’s, apostates, etc.. most especially masonry! It is the express duty of Peter to feed the sheep! In season and out of season. Nothing is more important to a Pope than to defend the Deposit of the Faith and feed the lambs.
“Emmerich wasn’t the author of what she reported. All that can be asked of a seer is verbatim reporting. Your observation is directed against the author not the agent.”
That is nonsense Roger. Emmerich didn’t ‘report.’ She spoke. Verbatim. She was the author. Someone else, (presumably Brentano, bt I don’t know) reported.
If what you say made sense, why should anyone – even you – be able to put any credence in her ‘prophecies’ which might have been invented by the ‘reporter’ Probably were, from what you say?
I suppose what you are suggesting is, people are free to believe her when she says what they want to hear – and free to disbelieve her when she says nasty, unpalatable things that they don’t like to hear.
Well – why not, really? We all do that anyway, with everything we read and see in ‘The Media.’
Toad The Bible is full of the written or taken down work of seers and prophets. The altars are replete with seers and visionaries. God always speaks through his prophets. This is how visionary’s seers and prophets communicate, they are conduits not authors. Emmerich “Sister Emmerich was practically illiterate,” just like the children of Fatima. The Imprimatur confirms there is nothing contrary to the Faith in these writings. The Imprimatur doesn’t cconfirm or deny just says there is nothing contrary to the Faith.
I am really grateful to you for honesty because this is the clash today between rationalism and faith.
My advice is not to treat this material as literature. There are lights and depths to Words that originate from mystics, reading this in the same context as text books is a bad habit. Look the St Malachy list has proven 100% accurate and is full of insights and hidden depths.
Fatima has great depths to explore. Her is something to meditate over. At Fatima 13th October 1917 it was raining, clouds obscured the Sun. At the time of the miracle the clouds parted to reveal a midday Sun.
Toad that image has deep spiritual and biblical meaning!
With Emmerich material you cannot read this as Media!
Yes it is prophectic and the relationship between the two Popes is incredibly prophetic.
Here is a link to the Dorous Passion
What we must remember is that during the parschal week pratically all jews at that time went to the Temple at Jerusalem. The Jews were expecting a Messiah. Holy week and the Moses tradition of the exodus from the flesh pots of Egypt to the Promised Land. The Lamb Our Lord however intends the exodus from a Fallen world to the real Promised Land (Heaven).
Just as not all went with Moses so not all went with Our Lord. Anti- semitic is equally applicable to the first Christians who were Semetic and persecuted by their own.
Why does Toad’s full official WordPress name have four Ts in it?
(To be honest, (for once) I’d never noticed that before. Just the usual Toad incompettttence.
Ttoo late now.
“I am really grateful to you for honesty because this is the clash today between rationalism and faith.”
How do you know that I’m being honest, Roger?
“At Fatima 13th October 1917 it was raining, clouds obscured the Sun. At the time of the miracle the clouds parted to reveal a midday Sun.”
I’ve seen that happen here in Moratinos.
Toad, has Barbara appeared in Moratinos? Lost track of her walk. (BTW I’m very impressed with your excellent social work ministry to the deranged here. No idea how you have the patience!)
“…the deranged here.”
Why do you pop in now and then simply to disparage one or more commenters before disappearing until your next blue funk? I think it’s fair to say that only your donkeys think more highly of you than you do of yourself.
Rabit, no Barbara so far, She is welcome, if and when.
I regard virtually everyone on the planet as deranged, including myself.
Especially myself. So it’s not so hard.
This should keep Roger busy for some considerable time.
Toad why would I want to pursue smoke and vapour? Conspiracy theories when you have already cited one and the gossip surrounding Brentano and Emmerich?
The Dutch financial model that came out of the Reformation is the standard model (although more sophisticated) that runs todays world. Free Masonry has been condemned by the Popes over several centuries so presumably they were victims of conspiracy theories?
How about the plotting of the Temple 2000 years ago and the co-operation between Annas, Caiphas and Herod in the murder of an Innocent Man? Was the Passion a Conspiracy? Whats your theory?
If you want my own stance its very simply. Having experienced some distinctly unpleasant so called supernatural experiences in my teens and seen the experiments of others with drugs, sex, marxism and seances I was anti anything supernatural. Later I had a remarkable experience with a crucifix kissed by Our Lady at Garbandal (I obviously wasn’t expecting or seeking sensation) so there is a Heaven and a Hell.
In other words its a matter of placing priorities and this is God first, neighbour next, self last. Pandering to materialism is placing the world before God. Sadly this thinking and the need to change Faith to match modernism is simply the broad road to Hell. Fatima is the message of placing God before mammon.
Pluralism is the false religion promulgated by pagan Rome its also Masonic’s stance. Today this thinking is responsible for Divorce, Abortion, Birth Control, Gaude Rights. Placing Man before God. Actually its deifying Man. Now if Man in his folly chooses to ignore His immortal soul in favour of his transitory Body. He will discover that instead of Utopia on Earth will come Chaos. Man has rejected Our Lord and chosen to go down the road of Chaos which is the broad road to Hell, rather than the narrow road to Heaven. If Rome chooses this path then Rome is walking away from its foundations.
What are these foundations? Sacred tradition and the Bible. Dogma and Doctrine are not negotiable!!
“Dogma and Doctrine are not negotiable!!”
Well, we agree on one thing, at least.
Of course, conspiracies do happen. People conspire. Have done myself.
Your argument is well put. It is indeed very difficult – nigh on impossible often – to recognise a conspiracy as it happens.
Naturally, as they are secret.
Bit concerned about Barbara, Toad. She is well overdue and I thought she would drop in at Moratinos. Should have passed through Burgos last week at least.
JH says “Why do you pop in now and then…”? No idea. Certainly not for the pleasure of your sarcasm.
OK, point taken. Not only your donkeys, but many of your pupils think more highly of you than you do of yourself. Rightly so. Even I sometimes look forward to the acerbic tapping of your mangy paws on your iPhone knock-off. But, puhleeze, don’t condemn me for sarcasm. I couldn’t bear being in the same circle of hell next to you.
Ha ha, JH. No time for sarcasm just now: donks to feed and off to school…
We all ‘pop in’ at CP&s – not only for the sarcasm – which is of the highest possible quality – but for the enlightenment, and warm-natured camaraderie (Did I spell that right, Golden?)