Lazarus-like he rises, to rant

Dominus mihi adjutor

No plaintive excuses, no unconvincing avowals of “I would have if I could have”. It has been busy here, in a disconcertingly unspectacular way. So blogging by your correspondent has been passive not active.

One topic in the past few weeks that has grabbed my attention is the matter of the bidding prayers at Mass. My eye settled first on a post at the New Liturgical Movement (NLM), and then more recently on a pastor’s heartfelt reflection by Fr Ray Blake in Brighton.

At NLM, Dr Kwasniewski rightly laments the general standard of bidding prayers/prayers of the faithful/general intercessions/universal prayer – call it what you will. He urges that they should be solidly founded theologically, well and aptly written, and that they should be sung (after all, if the bidding prayers have any real liturgical pedigree, it is to be found in the litany form).

Fr Blake is more forthright. He…

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About Brother Burrito

A sinner who hopes in God's Mercy, and who cannot stop smiling since realizing that Christ IS the Way , the Truth and the Life. Alleluia!
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21 Responses to Lazarus-like he rises, to rant

  1. toadspittle says:

    Will someone, Burro, perhaps – enlighten us (well, me at least) about what,
    “Lazarus-like, he raises, to rant,”
    …is supposed to mean – in this context… or in any other, come to that?
    Not one word about “ranting” or ” Lazarus” in the text.
    And nix when Googled.
    Did Lazarus rant on resurrection? And, if he did, what about?

  2. JabbaPapa says:

    Dunno Toad, looks like just a spot more of reactionary navel-gazing to me …

    From the article (at the point I stopped reading, frankly) : The introduction of bidding prayers into the new liturgy did not grow organically from forms already existing

    In reality, such prayers are an ancient Tradition of the Faith, of very likely Apostolic or Divine origin, but really, anyone who goes to the effort of writing up a whole blog entry condemning Prayer in whichsoever form is hard to take seriously (and no, I don’t mean you BB)

  3. toadspittle says:

    Example of a “bidding prayer”?
    …Seems all right to me.

  4. The Raven says:


    Fr has a point, the “bidding prayers” are a novelty: the earlier universal prayers found in the Galesian Sacramentary were highly constrained and formulaic; they survived in the form of the Good Friday prayers.

    The modern “make it up as you go” version of the bidding prayers, is a vile piece of Protestant praxis wedged into the Mass by the post conciliar wreckers, as ever, disguising their vandalism as the pretended revival of an ancient practice.

  5. JabbaPapa says:

    Raven, my mind is not made up on the question — but the ossification of those Prayers into peculiar forms strikes me as being an undesirable innovation of the Council of Trent.

  6. JabbaPapa says:

    … and an entirely understandable, even justifiable, one in the face of the grotesque anti-catholic agitation of that time ………… but still undesirable, because nobody could desire such travail.

  7. The Raven says:


    I don’t think that you can blame Trent for the “ossification” of these prayers: the universal prayer was a fixed formulation long before the eighth century.

    The twentieth century “reformers” we’re inventing something wholly new, albeit that they looked back to an entirely imagined past to justify their creation.

  8. JabbaPapa says:

    ossification requires previous existence, Raven, and who said anything about “blaming” an Ecumenical Council ?????!!!???!!??!?

  9. The Raven says:

    Jabba, I must be misreading you, but “…but the ossification of those Prayers into peculiar forms strikes me as being an undesirable innovation of the Council of Trent…” does read like you are casting blame on an Ecumenical Council.

    I suspect that I am missing your point.

  10. geoffkiernan says:

    Raven, that is easily done (missing Jabba’ point.) “…but the ossification of those prayers into a peculiar forms strikes me as being an undesirable innovation of the Council of Trent..” to my limited brain, suggests that he may well be casting blame on an Ecumenical Council. Lets hope this time he will respond further to explain precisely what he intended….. but don’t hold your breath.
    In my humble opinion the modern day ‘bidding prayer’ is a novelty that reflects what has happened to the ‘modern’ day liturgy. It is man centred and not God centred.

  11. geoffkiernan says:

    Another example of the Liturgical time bombs carefully and deliberately inserted in the VII Document on the liturgy??
    SC 23 ” There must be no innovations UNLESS the good of the Church genuinely and certainly require them, and care must be taken that any new form adopted should in some way grow organically from form already existing.”
    Who decides what the Church ‘genuinely and certainly requires?’ Any one who has an itch it seems.

  12. johnhenrycn says:

    Toad (11:51) mangles the title of this post, but I too don’t see how it relates to what follows. It’s meant as a jibe at someone, but who – Dominus Mihi Adjutor, Fr Ray Blake or Dr Kwasniewski?

    As for ‘Bidding Prayers’, which we call ‘Prayers of the Faithful’ over here, what’s to be done about a faithful, very ill member of the congregation (over here) who’s been mentioned in them every Sunday for the last three years?

  13. johnhenrycn says:

    …obviously, I would never voice an objection, but really, isn’t it a bit much? Maybe it’s because of my Protestant upbringing that it seems embarrassing.

  14. GC says:

    Boys, I think Father Hugh is suggesting he’s a bit sorry for not posting as much as he used to.

    I notice in the Orthodox Church and Byzantine Catholic Churches rather comprehensive “bidding prayers” or “petitions” run right through the liturgy before, after and during the “Canon”, starting with the “Great Litany”.

  15. johnhenrycn says:

    Like she has once or twice previously, GC puts me back on the straight and narrow. I see now that BB’s title was taken from the original post by that Dominus Mihi Adjutor guy, which explains the ‘Lazarus-like’ reference, since he apparently only posts infrequently? I do recall seeing him before. Not sure I knew he was a priest.

  16. GC says:

    An Australian born priest at Douai Abbey in Berkshire, JH? And I think he was once employed in the New South Wales constabulary somewhere.

  17. toadspittle says:

    Right JH, I misread and miswrote it.
    Makes no sense to me either way, but still.
    Lax Toad.
    Write out one hundred times, “Raising is not rising.”

    Looked first thing at Ireland’s biggest paper ( I think) :
    Blimey! Gays not even the lede story! Surprising. They’ll change up with the result I suppose. But, still…they don’t seem to be taking The Sky Possibly Falling all that seriously. How unhysterical of them.

  18. JabbaPapa says:

    I’m not “blaming” the Council of Trent, Raven — the Council Fathers reformed the Liturgy by making it more static, including by stamping out the many local variations and by establishing strict forms that all priests had to follow. The word “ossification” is not a negative, it’s simply descriptive of the nature of the liturgical reforms undertaken by that Council.

    Heaven knows the Novus Ordo could use a healthy dose of ossification !!!

  19. The Raven says:

    Hello, Jabba, I think that I rather focussed on your use of the word “unfortunate” in assessing your qualitative judgment of the matter.

    The Bull Quo Primum did, indeed, suppress rites that were less than 200 years old, but it required the unanimous resolution of a chapter to adopt the revised Roman rite: the extinction of Sarum, York, Uppsala and the Gallican rites is solely the result of the reformation/”enlightenment”; the missionary orders (the Jesuits before their decay, the Redemptorists and Oratorians) all post-dated Trent and used the Roman rite and this was the rite re-established in the lands that they re-evangelised for the Faith.

    It was only the twentieth century deformation that sought to homogenise Catholic worship.

  20. toadspittle says:

    Cozy, “Inside Baseball,” talk. Go right ahead, lads.
    Can’t hurt – because nobody else understands a word of it.
    (I suspect.)

  21. JabbaPapa says:

    Well I do think that Trent over-compensated somewhat against the attempts by the Protestants, the Anglicans, and various pro-Protestants or Protestant-leaning clergy towards liturgical revolution, but of course decisive action was needed at the time, so that it can hardly be viewed as being broadly regrettable.

    Doesn’t mean one can’t regret certain particular details of that liturgical reform, but this does not amount to a criticism of the Council as such, and certainly not of that Mass !!!

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