The Bergoglio Effect in Ireland: “The Mass has ended”

An excellent article with insights into today’s problems in the Church, that perhaps many of our readers will empathise with.

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46 Responses to The Bergoglio Effect in Ireland: “The Mass has ended”

  1. Yes, this is an excellent article, and everything expressed is true, profound, and moving. I think its impact would be even greater, however, if the translation and editing were refined and polished. Nevertheless, anyone who reads it should be able to see beyond the unfortunate clumsiness of this version and have a sense of how powerful the original must be


  2. Tom Fisher says:

    What happened in Ireland was not a “Bergoglio effect”.

    The truth needs to be said,here. The people of Ireland took this opportunity to show their rejection of the Irish Catholic Church. The reason for that rejection is that the Irish Church hierarchy betrayed the people of Ireland on a scale that would be hard to believe if it wasn’t so well documented.

    That’s what happened, the “Bergoglio effect” etc. is just delusion


  3. Robert says:

    The Truth without Charity is a Lie.
    Look at Christ at the so called sinners who became through Grace pillars in the Church.
    Why did Heaven expressly cite 1960 for the publishing of the Third secret of Fatima? Why wasn’t Heaven obeyed? Because Rome would not Obey Heaven and worse permitted Masonry into its highest levels. This is the background for the Apostacy of Ireland.
    Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    The Bergoglio effect? well I couldn’t care a less about the Man Bergoglio!
    The Pope must place Christ first and the Faith as anded to the Apostles.
    Understand that St Peter’s cross (inverted) cannot save you St Peter was saved by Our Lord’s Cross.
    Papal Infallibility does not mean changing Public Revelation by Private opinions!
    There is a mass of literature (documentation) justifying revolt under the guise of Reformation, Civil War, Revolution or attacks on Faith by Rationalism. Great schisms within the Church etc. etc.. Nothing new here. But we are living in a Apostacy it what was called Christendom.
    Man is NOT God and we have
    Was the Irish vote a spiritual Earthquake? or rather the visible surfacing of open Rebellion against the Apostolic Faith. That is right the Faith as handed by Our Lord to His Apostles not airy fairy wishy washy modernism.
    Marriage is a sacrament that means a channel of Grace. Marriage between Man and Woman was not invented by the Faith it has always been there. The Ten commandments or natural law is common to all men “Honour thy Father (that is male) and Thy Mother (that is female).
    The Creed says ” Creator of Heaven and Earth of all things visible and invisible”.
    Evolution and beastility run hand in hand since the parent(s) (ancestor) of the sibling is a beast (monkey).
    What Ireland vote has done is force Us to choose between obedience to God before Man.


  4. The “Bergoglio Effect” a delusion?
    An interesting way to think about it.


  5. Tom Fisher says:

    RJB, I agree that the “Bergoglio effect” can be quite real — but it’s not the driving factor in the Irish situation


  6. Tom Fisher, yes, I agree with you about the Irish situation. The Church in that country seems to have had some serious problems in recent decades, and those problems were indeed the driving factors behind the support for same-sex “marriage.”


  7. JabbaPapa says:

    Interesting article — I wouldn’t “agree” with it as such, as the Church Universal is not in the state described as such, but it’s a fine expression of the worries that any Traditional / Orthodox Catholic must feel in the face of certain worldly desires of certain Bishops and Princes of the Church.


  8. toadspittle says:

    “That Ireland, ancient fortress of Catholicism, has gone over to the people of “gay” marriage (“and who am I to judge”, as the Bishop of Rome is want to say), is a historical event.”
    Any event in time is a historical event. This is nonsensical, paranoid, gibberish – the dose currently administered twice daily, before meals.
    But the ongoing hysterical, squealing, keening and moaning is amusing, if a tad monotonous and tiresome to hear.
    Ireland hasn’t “gone over,” to anyone in particular – gay or not. It had a lot of nuns and priest at one time. Maybe it still does. Straights are still straight. Bumpkins are still bumpkins. So what? Some people over there have voted for a redefinition of marriage, That’s it.
    Yes, the gays must be mad to want to get what they call “married” – marriage was bad enough to begin with – so why make it even worse by changing the absurd rules? – But they seem set on it, bless them. We should indulge their whims, be tolerant of their patent folly.
    And the rest of us can get on with sensible, meaningful, things.
    …Like dog-walking, reading Anthony Kenny and Norman Douglas, listening to Mahler, hewing wood and drawing water, and betting on horses.


  9. toadspittle says:

    Still, italics are not so bad. The heck.


  10. toadspittle says:

    “…and the “Catholic God” (as Bergoglio says, “There exists no Catholic God”)”
    No indeed – what The Holy Father means (or so I think) is that God is not exclusive to a single religion. God’s a bit more significant and universal*, than that.
    The Pope (aka ‘Bergoglio’) is utterly wrong, of course. We all know that.

    *catholic – (small ‘c.’)


  11. GC says:

    Toad, you are giving us that “cracked record” feeling again.

    However, my feeling is that the Church and all others of a like mind should push now for what marriage used to be (of course, actually still is and will always be). She may have to find a new name for it. Maybe something like “true marriage”, how about that?

    I don’t mean ask states to create this, just as states didn’t create marriage either. We can create it ourselves, just like our ancestors did without any governments sticking their noses in.

    Actually we don’t need to “create” it, do we, or start from scratch? We’ve had the blueprint for centuries.

    Just another thought. With the word “marriage” being re-defined corrections will now have to be made in dictionaries of nearly all languages of the world when it comes to translating the English word “marriage” into all those languages and vice versa. For example, the Chinese word “hūnyīn” involves there being a male and a female tying the knot; you know, what “marriage” used to mean? So when translating “hūnyīn” into English now it won’t mean marriage. And vice versa.


  12. GC says:

    It’s pretty clear that “secularisation” has been growing in Ireland since the 1980s or earlier, especially in matters sexual. Didn’t need gay priests fiddling with teenagers and suchlike for that to have started.


  13. Robert says:

    Toad the Sun danced at Fatima. Easy to read, but the experience of the Sun moving and dancing was frightening. This miracle was on a predicted date and in a Portugal that had become secularised. Portugal 1917 , closed churches, imprisoned priests and religious was anti catholic.
    I see direct comparisons between the anti clerical government of Portugal in 1917 and Ireland 2015 that same anti clerical spirit.
    The Sun danced at Fatima! and the three visionaries (children) were shown Hell and told of Heaven. 1917 the Great World War. A second World War was predicted. The events around October 1917 have shaped our world including Palestine/Israel.
    The importance and or otherwise of the Irish vote is whether you believe in Heaven and Hell. You mention self indulgent occupations “dog-walking, reading Anthony Kenny and Norman Douglas, listening to Mahler, hewing wood and drawing water, betting on horses” Nero had similar priorities.
    This is a public renunciation of Christ and teachings by s Catholic country.
    In the meantime the world is turning against Christ. This means a rejection of the Passion and forgiveness of Sins and returning man to enslavery under Original Sin.
    The Faith has always been uncompromising. Either for or against so there is no middle ground for Catholics. Irelands vote is there for a rejection of God. Ireland today is very reminiscent of Portugal in 1917! Very very sad. My tears and sorrows are for Jesus and Mary and Joseph. The Holy Family so publicaly rejected


  14. Gertrude says:

    O.K. So the Republic has ‘gay marriage’. Please be clear: this is NO marriage. There is only one marriage, and that is Sacramental Marriage. The previous is neither gay or sacramental.


  15. toadspittle says:

    I agree re: the cracked record syndrome GC, it bothers me, too.
    But we all harp on about the same old, same old, – gay marriage, abortion, (paedophile priest are off the radar at present) the naughty old Pope, End of the Civilised World, Sky Falling Down, etc. So what am I to do?

    I sympathise deeply about the Chinese language and the philological complexities concerning their word for “marriage” . But it is beyond my control at present.
    I advise the Chinese to muddle through as best they can, until I get back to them. (No need for them to stop having sex while they are waiting, though.)

    “Maybe something like “true marriage”, how about that?”
    Excellent answer. Suits Toad. But nobody’s asking us. How about calling gay marriage, “Garriage”? – I’d think that was a happy compromise.
    But no, it must be “marriage” or nothing.
    …Spoilt brats. Not properly house-trained when young, I suspect.


  16. toadspittle says:

    “Then, thanks be to God, there arrived John Paul II and Joseph Ratzinger. ”
    Well, nobody blames JP ll for dying (at least I hope they don’t) – but are we supposed to thank God that Ratzinger then proceeded to quit remarkably soon after arriving, in the middle of his watch?
    …Or what?
    Why the silence on this point?


  17. toadspittle says:

    “There is only one marriage, and that is Sacramental Marriage. The previous is neither gay or sacramental.”
    Did the Aztecs or Incas, or the North American “Indians” before 1492, not get married, then – Gertrude – or the “Ancient” Greeks or Romans and Egyptians? Did nobody in Africa get married until Livingstone came along, or anybody in Australia before Captain Cook?? Do today’s Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or Shintos not get married? Do Atheists or Agnostics not get married? If so, why are we getting all bent out of shape now about a handful of Irish gays not getting “married”? What do you mean by “sacramental”?
    …Surely you don’t mean just the Christian way?
    If not, what do you mean?


  18. toadspittle says:

    “You mention self indulgent occupations “dog-walking, reading Anthony Kenny and Norman Douglas, listening to Mahler, hewing wood and drawing water, betting on horses” Nero had similar priorities.”
    No he didn’t.


  19. Robert says:

    Marriage? the best authority is Our Lord’s own words!
    The Creed sets out the Faith. Genesis explains Creation and here we understand why Adam and Eve are one flesh.
    This is why I cite Evolution and beastility with this Irish vote. We live by Faith, belief in things seen and unseen.
    Toad your response citing John Paul II and followed by Joseph Ratzinger this is the problem. Its this pop star elevation of the Pope the Man. The Papacy exists to place Christ first! Doesn’t matter if this is popular or unpopular what matters is Christ.
    Man has replaced God. The ten commandents turned upside down.


  20. I enjoy reading GC and Toad . Even if I do not agree with them , good writing is fun to read. Thanks ! I believe the major premise in all of this is that the natural law principles relied upon are immutable as the millennia come and go on this planet. Because of that , what was a natural law belief 2,000 years ago will still be the same natural law belief when our planet and its sun die 5 to 6 billion years from now. But that assumes that mankind will not grow in wisdom and knowledge or develop a healthier, more efficient , way to procreate its species. The man/woman sexual act as now practiced may become unnecessary. Our knowledge of natural law evolves as do the practical rules that guide our everyday lives. It was once a natural law that one man had a right to own another man as a slave ; or that men could be coerced to belong to a religion against their will . Vatican II put a number of these natural laws to rest. The natural law on marriage has evolved— many marriages (many wives ) to one marriage and one wife. The latter is changing again with the increasingly liberal annulment rules. With the population explosion , even Pope Francis said we should not breed like rabbits , It might be a good time in history to acknowledge that the natural law on marriage is changing. As Ireland has made clear , the sensus fidelium believes that the old natural law should be retired or amended. For example, in this country 90% of Catholics believe in the use of contraceptives. Next year’s Pew poll will be even worse for those still living in the 13th century. You are being left in the dust ! The laity is no longer the illiterate peasants of yore. Traditional pieties are no longer enough to win the day.


  21. toadspittle says:

    “This is why I cite Evolution and beastility with this Irish vote. “

    Well, Rogebert, the English have traditionally considered the Irish a beastly lot, so you may have a point. It’s a question of attitude.
    As the old saying goes – “In England, the situation is always serious, but never hopeless – In Ireland, the situation is always hopeless, but never serious.”


  22. Robert says:

    Toad my understanding of Ireland is of second and third generational English gentry have been the troublemakers!
    The bestiality/luxuria of the iniquitious king and those bishops and lords that followed that king.
    There is the root of the Troubles!
    Masonry that has ensnared Britain. That insidious viper masonry.
    Did England get vote on Divorce? Abortion? Gay Marriage? No these were forced on the statute books
    Look at the outing of the Irish clergy and compare with the rational excuse for that apocalpyse called the Reformation. See the same insidious demonic mind at work to destroy the salvific Passion Of Christ.
    Ireland has been seduced and betrayed by Masonry!
    Gay Marriage? No the Beast (that is Man identifying himself with Beasts) and beastiliy


  23. Tom Fisher says:

    my understanding of Ireland is of second and third generational English gentry have been the troublemakers!

    So that would take us back to about 1900. Actually Robert the roots of the Irish troubles run rather deeper than that. A trip to a public library may prove an eye opening experience


  24. GC says:

    So to save us the trouble, Mr Fisher, why don’t you just tell us the roots of the troubles, (as you yourself see them, of course!). That’s what the peeps can do on blogs.

    Desist from your attempts at enigmaticism (?), supposedly(??). Make yourself useful and choose not to conceal your lamp under a bushel, as the scriptures enjoin us.


  25. Tom Fisher says:

    Didn’t need gay priests fiddling with teenagers and suchlike for that to have started

    That is how you characterised the Irish situation earlier on this thread. I take it that you regard that as a fair summary. You’ll note that I read, but ignored your comment. There is nothing polite to say.


  26. GC says:

    Oh go ahead anyway. I can take it. Be a man and spit it out. Oh wait.


  27. Tom Fisher says:

    Dear GC,

    What occurred in Ireland cannot be reduced to homosexual priests inappropriately touching teenage boys.

    Given that you are a commentator on Catholic affairs, I presume that you have made the effort to read at least some of the relevant reports that have been released since 2010.

    If you have, then you are doubtless aware that men who sodomized children as young as 5 were moved from parish to parish for up to 20 years. You are also aware of bishops assisting in the disposal of mattresses drenched in blood and semen, to avoid their discovery by authorities. And you have no need for me to say any more, because you know the details that are too horrible to raise here.

    Your characterisation was to flippant by half.


  28. toadspittle says:

    “It’s pretty clear that “secularisation” has been growing in Ireland since the 1980s or earlier, especially in matters sexual. Didn’t need gay priests fiddling with teenagers and suchlike for that to have started.”

    GC is, I think, correct here, inasmuch as Ireland was already rotten to its emerald green core long before the gay priest stuff. It goes back, I suggest, at very least to the 50’s (probably way, way before) – when intelligent and talented people fled Ireland as quick as they could, not simply to better themselves materially but to escape the repressive, priest-ridden, climate of stagnant intellectual gloom and misery there. I’ve since got to know several expats, both in London and the U.S. who confirmed this to me.
    And Tom’s right too – the priestly scandals nailed down the coffin, good and proper, on the shambles that was left.


  29. johnhenrycn says:

    My goodness, Tom Fisher is on a roll. At 14:06 he tells the extremely erudite 😉 Robert (or Roger) to take “a trip to a public library”. At 16:40, he takes the famously taciturn 😉 GC to task for ‘flippancy’; and at 14:01 on the Frs Martin/Fitzpatrick thread, he accuses the drop-dead gorgeous (going by her avatar) GinFree of being “shallow” and “flippant” and “triumphalist”. Over here, we call that a hat trick, but don’t know if people use that expression in your neck(s) of the woods.
    And hey! No one has ‘liked’ my Alberta Hunter YouTube on the Off Topic Forum, which is darned churlish, I have to say.


  30. Robert says:

    What the Eire Vote has done is to reveal the Schism in Christianity between Modernism and Traditionalism.
    The background to this vote? We are all aware of the legal cases of Christians being impoverished and sued by militent Gay’s using the Courts to force their homosexual relationships and practices onto Christians and their businesses.
    A supposed Catholic country Ireland that has by its vote defended militant Gays as opposed to Christian marriage and traditional beliefs.
    The lid has been lifted and the rot displayed to the world.
    So what is it to be the broad road of popularity to the acclaim of the world? or the cursing rejection, the public Crucifixion of Traditional Christians? The Way of the Cross?
    It won’t stop of course!
    Christ cast out demons and devils from those posessed! Its all in the Bible. Today the demon can go where he likes and the law will uphold his rights!


  31. toadspittle says:

    I just listened and liked Alberta, JH. I sometimes forget about ‘OT.’


  32. toadspittle says:

    “Today the demon can go where he likes and the law will uphold his rights!”

    That’s Demonocracy, in operation, Rogebert.
    Just because you’re a demon, doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a bad person.


  33. johnhenrycn says:

    Wrong again, I am, which I hasten to admit before our quintessential Englishman, The Raven (unless he’s actually from Newcastle) reminds me that hat trick was originally a cricket – not a hockey – idiom.


  34. johnhenrycn says:

    Glad you liked it, Toad. You are so lucky – having loved and lived with four women – which made me think of the very sweet June Hutton singing Where Is Your Heart? in 1953 when you were just starting to sow your oats. In compliance with the new CP&S policy, I shall post it on the Off Topic forum.


  35. Just because you’re a demon, doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a bad person.

    No, it means you’re necessarily nothing else.


  36. GC says:

    I actually don’t think that adult men interfering with adolescent boys is less appalling than other things you have described, Mr Fisher, even though a search of the Interweb fails to reveal those things.

    But when looking at all these very unpleasant things it would be negligent not to attempt to look at everything and then to draw conclusions in order to decide on what measures are needed.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. GC says:

    Toad, I still think this falling away from the Church would have happened anyway in Ireland, as it did in most other western countries, beginning in the 70s.


  38. toadspittle says:

    We both agree on that, GC.
    And that Ireland and Spain particularly had a good deal further to fall, and so the drop was more spectacular to observers.
    I believe, from what I read and see about me, that in both cases there is a palpable sense of emerging from a narrow, dismal, tunnel. (But that might just be my interpretation. And it might be quite wrong.)
    In case I didn’t make it clear – I think the ‘Gay Marriage’ vote in Ireland was as much an excuse to poke the Church in the eye as it was a call for “equality, ” – more, in fact.
    Why the Irish should feel the need to so poke is open to speculation.
    …Which is where we came in.


  39. toadspittle says:

    and narrower,
    said Alice.
    will it


  40. Tom Fisher says:

    10 hours stuck in an airport, it was quite the opposite of being on a roll. But I definitely enjoyed Alberta Hunter


  41. GC says:

    I was at first quite sceptical of the title of this article. But having now read the Irish Times, I am less than convinced that scepticism is appropriate.

    After all, this is the Pontificate of a certain Francis, a Pope who has used unprecedentedly inclusive language about homosexuals, saying:
    “A gay person who is seeking God, who is of good will – well, who am I to judge him?”

    That famous remark on the plane back from Brazil in the summer of 2013 does not of course change the Catholic rejection of same sex marriage nor Catholic teaching that the practise of homosexuality is a sin.

    However, those remarks did indicate a radical change of tone, a welcome for gays, a tone that was reflected, briefly, during last October’s Synod which at the halfway point had spoken of “the gifts and qualities” that homosexuals “can offer to the Christian community”. This was hardly going down the “defeat for humanity” road.

    In the Holy See this week, some Vatican officials, off the record, regretted Cardinal Parolin’s “tone” if not his “content”.

    Elephant stamp for Pope Bergoglio from the Irish Times and a raspberry for Cardinal Parolin?


  42. toadspittle says:

    “After all, this is the Pontificate of a certain Francis, a Pope who has used unprecedentedly inclusive language about homosexuals…”

    Supposing that the language said, (it doesn’t, I know – but just supposing)…

    “After all, this is the Pontificate of a certain Francis, a Pope who has used unprecedentedly inclusive language about human beings of every conceivable variety…”
    Then what?

    To suggest it’s unchristian to be insulting about Pell and Burke ( who sound like a firm of rather shabby divorce lawyers, to Toad) – but absolutely fine to be insulting to the Pope – strikes me as amusing.
    …On a Catholic website. Or anywhere, really.


  43. Robert says:

    The point about mentioning Our Lord during his public Life He cast out demons and cure the sick. He even calmed the wind and waves. All that is necessary is to understand what Our Lord defined as Sickness or Possession and or Sin. We can find this out by going back to Public Revelation and the Apostolic Succession. Sin remains Sin.
    The Sin of Sodom for instance doesn’t need explaining or justifying. Tom mentioned dreadful cases of this Sin in Ireland. By the stroke of a Pen it has been legalised and marriage redefined. Where there was certainty of understanding now there is a bluring of distinctions. Sin has been legalised and if opposed can be enforced through the courts.
    The atheist or agnostic State has rights and authority over God. The vote in Ireland has placed Man’s Laws above God’s Laws.
    In other words the Faith is being rejected and suppressed, forced into the catacombs. The Irish vote has immediately driven the Faith underground.
    How can marriage and the Faith now be taught? Faith schools will have to teach Gay sex and marriage without distinction. Honour Thy Father and Mother is certainly illegal because what if there are two or more Fathers or two Mothers? Is polygamy possible in Gay marriage?
    The ten commandments have been turned on their Head.
    The certainty from this vote is Persecution of Christians who place God before Man. The Irish can’t blame the English nor Cromwell this is their own choice!


  44. toadspittle says:

    “Honour Thy Father and Mother is certainly illegal because what if there are two or more Fathers or two Mothers?”
    What if? Just honour them both, or either, or all of them.
    Honour anyone in sight, really. Just to be sure.
    Why not? Nobody’s perfect.


  45. toadspittle says:

    Fie! D’oh! Etc!
    Why has it taken me years and years to think of running this clip? It would have explained everything!


  46. toadspittle says:

    Tip-top Richard – and, as a bonus, you have a kindly face. Yes, GC is a wordsmith of undoubtedly superior quality.
    We jointly award you a gold star for employing the word, “yore,” as it has been loafing around, moping and underemployed, for too long now.


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