The Nature of Death – St Thomas Aquinas

dominican-saints

Today, 7th November, is the feast of all of the Saints of the Dominican Order, many of whom were martyrs. What an amazing list of saints there are attached to this blessed Order! They include three Doctors of the Church, one of whom is one of the greatest theologians in the history of the Church (St Thomas Aquinas); the patron of science and scientists (St Albert the Great) and the co-patron saint of Europe (St Catherine of Siena).

November is also the month when we recall the Four Last Things, for on our pilgrim journey on Earth, there is nothing more certain than that we are here but for a short time. It is a fact that when we are young death can often be seen as a frightening or depressing subject, something to be considered later in life when we are old, not now whilst there is so much to discover and enjoy. But there is no guarantee that we shall ever reach old age! “Watch ye therefore, because ye know not what hour your Lord will come” (Matthew 24:42). Besides, there is no greater peace of mind, no greater joy for the man, both young and old, who lives at all times in the grace of God. So: “Let your loins be girt, and lamps burning in your hands” (Luke 12:35). And then death, when it comes, will have no sting.

thomas-2-sized

Below is an article by Fr. Brian Mullady, OP on “The Theology of Death”, based on the philosophy of St. Thomas Aquinas.

“The most vital question in any study of the nature of death is this: in what sense can death be said to be the destiny of Man? This will help us to answer further questions about the natural character of death, and help us to understand Christ’s death and our own.

St. Thomas Aquinas is very clear about the nature of death. He says: “The necessity of dying for Man is partly from nature and partly from sin. Death due to nature is caused by the contrary elements of the body. Every material element in the body is composed of both active and passive elements held together in a tenuous connection. From the point of view of these elements, death is natural. Nor is there any power in the material elements themselves or in the soul to keep my body or any body from death. From the point of view of the body, then Man is mortal and doomed to die.

Yet, Man is not only a body, but also a soul. The soul is the spiritual element in Man’s composition. Philosophy and the Catechism call it the form of the body, that element in Man that organizes matter into being, and into the being which is Man. The body and the soul are not two separate principals but complimentary ones, which must exist in union with each other for Man to exist perfectly. Soul, or form exists within matter and organizes it because Man is not an angel. Body could not exist as human without soul. Thus, the destiny of Man could in no sense be determined by only one of these elements. Both are necessary.

Though the body tends to death because of its contrary elements, it tends to life because of the presence of the soul. In fact, from the point of view of the soul, death is not natural to Man. St. Thomas says: “A thing is said to be natural if it proceeds from the principals of nature. Now the essential principles of nature are form and matter. The form of Man is his reasoning soul, which is immortal, wherefore death is not natural to Man from the point of view of this form or this soul.”

Though it is true that, naturally speaking death is the destiny of Man if one considers one part of him: the body, nothing could be further from the Truth if one considers him from the point of view of the spiritual soul. Reason considered the destiny of the soul and realized that there is active in Man intelligence, which goes beyond our body and is not open to death. Some ancient philosophers knew this. According to St. Thomas, Aristotle knew this, and he knew this from reason alone. St. Thomas says: “This conclusion also comes to light thru the authority of Aristotle, for he says in his treatise on the soul, ‘the intellect is evidently a substance and is incapable of being destroyed'” (i.e. immortal).

The first implication of this idea in the discussion of death should be that it is absolutely impossible even from the standpoint of reason to maintain that death is the final destiny of Man, or for that matter that life is absurd. Death is a fact, but it cannot be the destiny of Man for this reduces Man to only the material order. In fact, there is no solution to the problem of death until it is considered from the point of view of the soul.

St. Thomas makes the point many times that the soul, in its act can only be fulfilled in intelligence and understanding. Once the intellect knows one relationship of cause and effect, then the power of the mind cannot be stilled until the first cause, the primary cause, the ultimate Cause (in this case, God) is directly experienced.”

You can read the rest of this interesting article here.

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59 Responses to The Nature of Death – St Thomas Aquinas

  1. Robert says:

    Thank you for this.
    The Dominicans and the Franciscans were Gods instruments to rebuild the Church. Leo XIII refered back to Aquinas. Another Dominican the Angel of the Apocalpyse St Vincent Ferrer is very very relevant to Our times.
    The soul the Form of the Body. Man CREATED by God in God’s image and we see the Word made Flesh. Our Lords Resurrection. Our Lady’s Assumption Body and Soul.
    Created NOT Evolved from an Ape.

  2. johnhenrycn says:

    “November is also the month when we recall the Four Last Things…”

    I’m recalling this evening the man, the priest who paved the way for my reception into our Holy Church. November is the month when we remember our dead loved ones, when we think of the people who have left us, especially people who made a big impact upon us. I’m thinking this evening especially about this man (if you watch for about a minute, it’s a tearjerker):

  3. Toad says:

    “Created NOT Evolved from an Ape.”
    Only loonies now doubt man shares a common ancestor with the other types of ape – and a diminishing number of them, thankfully. Maybe God chose to populate the planet that way. I don’t know.
    Man also shares a common ancestor with JH’s self-regarding pig. I, like you, would like to make an exception in your personal case, Robger – but sadly it can’t be done. The monkeys and us (and the pigs) and you and I – are all in this farce together.
    If it’s any consolation, a gorilla might well be equally horrified by the suggestion that he (or she) has someone as dopey as you as a cousin.

  4. Robert says:

    Well these loonies are the Authors of the Apostles Creed. They include St Aquinas and Aristotle as well as Homer. The history of Man and His beliefs are consistent with Created Man.
    This is from the article “..Death is a fact, but it cannot be the destiny of Man for this reduces Man to only the material order. In fact, there is no solution to the problem of death until it is considered from the point of view of the soul. ..”
    Evolution reduces man to the material order without a Soul (Gilbert Ryle ‘Concept Of Mind’ is an attempt to explain Consciousness as material.) it also is destroyed by the Eucharist which is the Body, Blood, etc.. Of Our Lord True God and True Man.
    The Immaculate Conception destroys Evolution because Our Lady was born what 2000 years ago? How do you reconcile the Man Adam and Eve with Jesus (True God and True Man) and Mary?
    The Passion is meaningless without Genesis. The Apocalpyse is meaningless without Genesis.
    Apostacy is essentially rejecting the Truth revealed Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (calling them liers).
    A generation that chooses beastility as its parenthood is a generation that has rejected a Heavenly Father.
    Toad Evolution is beastility and hence provides excuses for rewriting marriage! They link is plain. The Choice is simply and Plain. Creator and Heavenly Father, Evolution and beastility.

  5. ginnyfree says:

    Toad, count me among the loonies then. I was created by God in His own image. He gives me life in His name and I don’t need science to talk me out of that. You cannot believe man evolved out of some primordial ooze of a swamp into an ape then a man and receive Holy Communion, no matter how the Modernists twist it to make their modern version of Catholicism fit into the schema of science’s religion of non-belief in anything that cannot be seen under a microscope or reproduced in their labs, which BTW, they cannot do with the myriad of theories of evolution that have evolved from the first tacts Darwin published way back when. To me any one who falls for that bunko is really dumb. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  6. Toad says:

    “I was created by God in His own image.”
    And so was Rush Limbaugh, Boris Karloff, Quasimodo, and Mel Gibson, Ginnie. Personally I’d rather look like a tiger, or even a cockroach, (..but I’m stuck as a toad, and that’s that.) Which is to ask (yet again!) if we are created n God’s image, why are we all so more incontestably ugly than anything else on earth? ( Except possibly, for the Eiffel Tower, high-heeled “running shoes,” Michael Voris’s hair, or Donald Trump’s brain?)

    Now, Roberg – let’s you and I try to consider what might have happened if one of the continents had been isolated from the rest for several millions of years. Quite possibly, entirely different forms of life might have evolved. And guess what – that’s xacly what did happen… Kangaroos! Cor.
    It all “proves” nothing, of course. We can go on with our heads deep in the sand, where it’s nice and warm and dark and ignore any evidence. As Robent will persist in doing.
    In his case, head burying is a sound idea. Because, if he ever puts his head above ground, the shock of reality may well kill him.
    It’s turgid and dreary to have to go through all this every other week. I will offer my boredom up for the Souls in Purgatory. (Where my cats will go, except for the incredibly wicked Norman – who seems set to accompany me to The Eternal Flames after what he did to today’s lunch table.)

  7. Toad says:

    “..they cannot do with the myriad of theories of evolution that have evolved from the first tacts Darwin published way back when. To me any one who falls for that bunko is really dumb. God bless. ” . Ginnyfree.”
    What myriad theories, Gin-girl? There’s only one, basically : “All life on earth derives from a common source.” I think she means “tract” not “tact.” but who knows? It was a book, not a tract, in any case., anyway.Maybe she and Robege, as souls in wacky Catho-Fundamentalist harmony, should consider getting wed? God help the offspring.

    Sane CP&S regulars – please look carefully at the ” evolutionary” gibberish being spouted on here. And think about it.

    “I don’t need science to talk me out of that. “
    Don’t worry at all, Ginnster – “science” hasn’t the slightest intention of talking you out of any of your nonsense. Science is quite happy that you stay comfortable and cosy and warm, in whatever substance you choose to find yourself happy in. Up to yor neck. Regardless of how it smells to the rest of us.

  8. kathleen says:

    Well said Robert and Ginny! And count me in too among Toad’s “loonies”.

    Man was created in the “Image and Likeness” of God. No animal has ever been endowed with that magnificent, incomparable gift of immortality, capable of knowing and loving His Creator and of having a relationship with Him. Nor do the animals (not even the most intelligent ones) have any knowledge of “Good and Evil”. Adam and Ever were given this knowledge after the Fall (Original Sin) from the ill use of their Free Will, and we, their descendants, continue to suffer its effects.

    Fulfilling His promise to our first parents, Our Blessed Saviour came to Suffer and Die the most agonising of Deaths to free us from the clutches of Sin’s evil consequences; He did not come to save the animals, whose lives are fully satisfied by all this world offers. Man’s “restless hearts” are never satisfied by what the World has to offer, for “our hearts were made for God and will only rest when they rest in Him” (St Augustine).

    From Psalm 8:
    4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    5 Thou hast made him a little less than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honour:
    6 and hast set him over the works of thy hands.
    7 Thou hast subjected all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen: moreover the beasts also of the fields.

    Sorry to go on – all this above is common knowledge to Catholics of course – but it is just so irritating to be constantly compared to gorillas and chimps. These creatures (lovely though they may be) are separated from Man by a vast insurmountable gulf that the discovery of only 2% of material difference in our DNA has lead many to believe they are no more than our “distant cousins”!! How more ‘Darwinickly’ wrong can you get?

  9. Toad says:

    “…the intellect is evidently a substance and is incapable of being destroyed’”
    Utter nonsense.
    Any “substance” must be capable of being destroyed. Or it’s not what any of us recognises as a substance.

  10. Toad says:

    “Man was created in the “Image and Likeness” of God.”

    (sigh – yet again!) …then why are we all so hideously ugly? Surely, we all agree that is clearly the case? Have none of us – except, it seems, JH’s intelligent, self-referencing, pigs – looked at ourselves in the mirror recently? I avoid it as much as possible, myself.
    But then. I’m notably squeamish.

    “…the discovery of only 2% of material difference in our DNA has lead many to believe (chimps, gorillas, etc.,) are no more than our “distant cousins.”
    Kathleen and I agree here, as we generally do. The other apes are not “…our distant cousins. ” They are our very closest cousins.
    …Hence the DNA.
    Luckily for the planet, our cousins are not as insane as humans.

  11. Robert says:

    Toad I refer you to Homer the shades (spirits) of Patroclus who spoke intelligently to the living Achilles. Disembodied intelligence! This is the fatal trap sprung by Satan on this generation that is ensnared in the so called material.
    By refusing to accept the existence of non material Intelligence the door is opened to Demonic.

  12. Toad says:

    “Toad I refer you to Homer the shades (spirits) of Patroclus who spoke intelligently to the living Achilles.”
    1: So bloody what, Roger? Who cares what Homer intelligently said, or even stupidly to Achilles? How do you know what Homer said anyway ( except, D’oh! – perhaps?) Were you there?
    2: […] One sentence deleted by a Moderator. Please do not insult other commenters, Toad.
    And, as the protagonists are, or were, total pagans, it’s probably sinful heretical nonsense of you to mention them approvingly.

  13. Robert says:

    Now lets look afresh at the Universe. Its obviously teeming with Life. Creation and a Creator. Who says that the Creator cannot continue to Create Life in all its forms within His Creation? The reality before Us is that He continued and continues to Create new Life. Abortion is the logical consequence of Evolution yet Abortion KILLS created Life. Creation didn’t stop with Genesis. The article talks of the nature of Death. This is a timely reminder that Death is the wages of Sin and that with the Damned their Souls are without Light! That we can be physically dead but alive (sic the Church teaches Us this and the Communion of the Saints.)
    We are to put on Christ. That is NOT evolve into Christ!!!

  14. johnhenrycn says:

    Kathleen says: “…it is just so irritating to be constantly compared to gorillas and chimps.”

    Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn I find it just so hard to know where to draw the line ‘tween them and us. No, I don’t believe we “evolved” from apes, but what about earlier versions of homo sapiens. Take, for example, the extinct homo sapiens idaltu
    data:image/jpeg;base64,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
    We cannot deny they are extinct. We can deny they are made in God’s image, but is it a matter of faith and doctrine that we do so? And what if we have indeed “evolved” from some earlier Mark1 version of the homo genus? The very thought makes Roger and Robert want to jump off a bridge, but I can live with that idea and still be a sound Catholic, can I not?

  15. Toad says:

    “By refusing to accept the existence of non material Intelligence the door is opened to Demonic.”
    If, like you, Robert – I were to accept, “…the existence of non material Intelligence,” how could I tell if it was Demonic or not?

  16. johnhenrycn says:

    Oh fudge:
    http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dinosaurs/images/6/6a/27eccd3858635c331f168045e0c620e6.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150911072527
    Sure looks like O.J. Simpson to me. Does Robert or Roger say he is not a man in the biblical sense?

  17. Toad says:

    “Abortion is the logical consequence of Evolution “
    More gibberish. Abortion might be a very bad thing, as is murder or injustice – but neither has anything to do with evoution.
    Still, explain the logical consequence of this to us, Roberg.

  18. Toad says:

    It would make slightly less nonsense if everyone on here could immediately read what I’m saying in reply to them . We might have a spirited and stimulating discussion But then, I might say something horrid, and dubious, I know.
    And that would not do.
    Anyway, I’m off for the night To read some shallow old Voltaire, like as not.
    It shouldn’t happen to a pig.

  19. Robert says:

    John Henry I think a close look at Genesis will begin to answer your questions. What is or was the mark of Cain. Cain was slain mistaken for an animal. Also the Anathema of Babel which is where the Nations came from. The differences between nationals are part of this anathema. I understand that Sin is the reason for Death and frankly a world hostile to Man.
    That Reason alone (which is where Modern Science is coming from) is limited. Aquinas synthesis between Revelation and Philosophy places Revelation superior to worldly Reasoning.
    The real issue is placing Man above God and denying Revealed Truth.
    You are mistaken the Bible doesn’t set out to prove God existence. Man and Men have always believed in God. Belief in God/Gods is as ancient as man. The Bible is the book of Truth but its Truths require prayer and virtue to unlock their depths.

  20. johnhenrycn says:

    Voltaire is it now? You flirt. Whatever happened to Montaigne? Personally, I’m planning on dipping into the new Clausewitz biography by Donald Stoker (OUP, 376 pages, $27.95) or the Collected Works of Ena Sharples when I retire tonight. Bye.

  21. ginnyfree says:

    Toad, give it up.

  22. ginnyfree says:

    Yes, Toad. You found my typo. Thank you for your kind correction. I will pray you find the gift of faith. I’ve heard it said a man of faith needs no explanation but the man of no faith will find no explanation suitable. Please pray for the gift of faith. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  23. ginnyfree says:

    That’s almost right Toad. Fire will eventually destroy everything. It’s eschatology, not evolutionary. God bless. Ginnyfree

  24. Toad says:

    “Toad, give it up.”
    That would be the sane and sensible course, Ginny. I’m getting nowhere with the Fundamentalist whackos here. But I’m stubborn.
    The only reason I mentioned tohe typo (we all make them) was in order to clarify my reply. I though I might be getting your comment wrong.
    “I’ve heard it said a man of faith needs no explanation but the man of no faith will find no explanation suitable.” Tell that to a Muslim suicide bomber. He will agree with you 100%. He’s a man of faith, all right.
    “Voltaire” JH? Maybe I’ll dip into Montherlant. He’s pretty good, too. Tried “Chaos and Night”?

    “Belief in God/Gods is as ancient as man.”
    So is murder, farting, and “going to the bathroom,” Roberg.

    (Back to bed now. For the rest of the night.)

  25. Robert says:

    Science is very interesting. I am not against science BUT when you follow it you find that so much is theory or speculative.

    Man is Body and Soul. The fact that there is commonality between structures sic DNA, blood, skeleton, eyes, ears, lungs etc.. and that these are found in Nature shouldn’t come as a surprise. Our ancestors knew this, So why today is this being presented as something NEW? What is being taught is beastility (Man a beast of the Earth). Man’s Father is GOD! That’s the Faith

    Adam was formed by God of the “red earth” BUT God breathed a living (eternal) soul (which as Aquinas refers to as Form) . Adam was placed above the animals and even named them!

    It is inconceivable that the Gospels (Word Of God) are not the Truth.

    In Luke we have Our Lords lineage traced back to Adam (WHO WAS OF GOD)
    Luke 3:38 ” Who was of Henos, who was of Seth, who was of Adam, who was of God.”

    HE WHO MADE MAN FROM THE BEGINING
    Matthew 19
    [4] Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said:
    [5] For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
    [6] Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder

    Genesis (God created Man to his own image)
    [25] And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.
    [26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
    [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

    Now like it or not the Messiah came to suffer because of Original Sin, Adams Sin. Our Lord as True Man making reparation for Man’s inherited Sin from Adam. This is why the Faith exists, The sacraments exist. Adam Created by God and Adam’s Sin and Our Lords Passion so that through Our Lord Man could Enter Heaven and return to the Father.

  26. Tom Fisher says:

    Sane CP&S regulars – please look carefully at the ” evolutionary” gibberish being spouted on here. And think about it.

    Toad,

    remember what the Cheshire Cat said to Alice🙂

    But I don’t want to go among mad people,’ Alice remarked.
    `Oh, you can’t help that,’ said the Cat: `we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.’
    `How do you know I’m mad?’ said Alice.
    `You must be,’ said the Cat, `or you wouldn’t have come here.’

    You won’t gain much from arguing about evolutionary biology. — The debate about whether human beings are the product of biological evolution is long over, as you know. Creationists can’t do much harm these days, which is the main thing, since they’ll always be with us. Not worth worrying about

  27. Toad says:

    “I am not against science BUT when you follow it you find that so much is theory or speculative.” No, Retbog – ALL of science is theory or speculative. All of it. That’s what science is.

    “It is inconceivable that the Gospels (Word Of God) are not the Truth.” No it isn’t. No to several billion people. This simply shows you don’t know what the word “Inconceivable” means. The Goapels may well be true. But it’s “conceivable,” that they aren’t.

    I know, Tom, I know. But I’m like one of those dopey bull terriers who get their teeth into something and won’t let go until they’re beaten near dead.
    But didn’t old Lewis nail it? Thanks for that reminder.

  28. Robert says:

    Tom
    There is debate and the Faith. The Faith is the Apostles Creed. The Faith is what the Word taught and lived. Our Lord is Truth.
    Death has a double whammy the death of the body and a living soul. However the death of the soul is Hell. What kills the soul?
    By debate I presume you mean placing human reasoning before public revelation. The same logic that saw Our Lord condemned and Crucified? In Our Age this equates to rejecting and rationalising (human reasoning) the Faith.
    In secular Portugal 1917 Heaven placed three children in front of those free thinkers. A miracle was fortold on a specific Day. Debate vanished on that Day 13 Oct 1917.
    Think about the remnant that saw Our Lord’s resurrection. Our Lord could have walked into the Temple after His Resurrection but He didn’t. Actually those who had heard him, been miraculously healed BUT had rejected Him were left in their unbelief.
    So today a remnant remains against the perceived wisdom of the world. In this can be seen God’s Justice separating the sheep and the goats. This process is most noticeable since 1960.
    Today Capitalism, Socialism and Rational science dictates belief. However Our Lord warned of this general Apostacy when he spoke to His Apostles above Jerusalem. Jerusalem is Rome in Our Days.
    You are the Son of a Beast or the Son Of The Father you cannot be both. That’s the debate! You have Free Will you have made up your mind.
    I repeat Creation continues daily and the evolutionists kill these created souls (Abortion). Understand Evolution kills. In Creation is Life in Evolution is Death!

  29. Robert says:

    The article is very good and worth meditation.
    Creation and Evolution? Now Our Lords answer is His Passion and Resurrection (Resurrection is essential for Man!).
    “..The body and the soul are not two separate principals but complimentary ones, which must exist in union with each other for Man to exist perfectly. Soul, or form exists within matter and organizes it because Man is not an angel. Body could not exist as human without soul. Thus, the destiny of Man could in no sense be determined by only one of these elements. Both are necessary. ..”

    Thus the Resurrection is essential for Man

    “..The solution to this problem can only be: the resurrection of the dead. But there is no power on earth that can bring about resurrection. The absurdity then would be that the body lies dead forever, while the soul lives forever. Yet, this was the absurdity that the ancient philosophers were led to when they tried to resolve this contradiction only by reason ..”

    Science? Human Reason and its modern argument which is Evolution BUT the absurdity cited above is that of ignoring the soul and reasoning that Man is only a material Body.

    What did Our Lady say at Garabandal? Look at the Passion of Our Lord!! (That is the death (of the body) and Resurrection which proves that Man is both Body and Soul!).

    The moment you start to question Public Revelation (the Gospels) you have no Faith. God is the author of His Book!

  30. ginnyfree says:

    Hello Robert. Not to throw a monkey wrench into your defense against Evolutionary Theory, but Our Lady said nothing at Garabandal. It is NOT an approve apparition. I quote some respectable commentary from EWTN: “The history of all approved apparitions shows that the Church requires unequivocal evidence of supernaturality. This can be cures, as at Lourdes and Beauraing, or a supernatural prodigy, as at Fátima. The reason from the Church’s mystical theology is that most mysticism (as both St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John of the Cross teach) is mediated by the angels (who have a created angelic nature). What the good angels can do the bad angels can imitate, so that many so-called “supernatural” phenomena are merely preternatural (above human nature, but not above the angelic nature). At Garabandal this would include the ecstasies, the ecstatic walks, the returning of rosaries and medals to the proper owners and so on. None of these things, much less the miraculous photos, rosaries turning gold etc. of more recent alleged apparitions, proves anything to the Church about the divine origin of a phenomena. In the absence of some clear supernatural proof neither the local bishop or Rome is likely to approve an apparition.” If you need more the rest can be found at: https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/garabandal.htm
    It is unwise to rely of false, unapproved apparitions for substance in one’s apologetic. God bless. Ginnyfree

  31. Toad says:

    This crude and offensive comment has been removed by a Moderator. Enough of this Toad. We are receiving complaints about your Anti-Catholic diatribe on our blog, with one commenter remarking, “I find it increasingly strange that he [i.e. you] thinks he is contributing to a ‘spirited and stimulating discussion’ when what he actually comes out with is mostly schoolboy posturing and toilet humour”. We permit disagreement for the sake of discussion, but we will not tolerate blasphemy and obscenity. Final warning – take heed.

  32. Toad says:

    Well, I honestly can’t remember a single word of what has driven everyone into an existential frenzy. That, in itself, should tell us something significant. But, who’s to say?.
    If you ban me – you ban me. Your decision. The Sun will still appear to rise in the East tomorrow, and I can devote my time to less trivial pursuits, like horse racing, bird-watching, and staring into space and wondering how it’s all going to end.
    But please – just make my beheading “official,” por favor – with an announcement that we can all read simultaneously. No need for explanations. “Toad has gone too far this time,*” will do.
    What does it matter anyway? It’s all folly and vanity.
    The devout Muslims terrorists will soon come and kill us all anyway, regardless of which way the priest is facing the altar…or what Guy Fawkes thought.
    Anyway, Robeget for the next Pope, right? OK? He will bring a bit of his highly personal, indeed unique, sanity to the [two heretical words edited out by a Moderator] that is commonly referred to as “organised religion”

    *Three of my wives have told me that.

  33. Robert says:

    Ginnyfree my apologise reference Garabandal.
    The Passion and Resurrection is mentioned in the article.
    How did the dead body resurrect? because of the living soul.
    Our Lord also said on the cross to the good thief “this day you shall be with me in Paradise”. If the good thief died on the cross then what part of him could be alive in Paradise? (his soul).

    Our Lord described in the gospels as “my beloved Son listen to Him”. Our Lord taught Us the Our Father. Without Original Sin and the Created Man Adam then how can we comprehend the broken relationship of Man to God and the need for the Immaculate Conceptionl, Virgin Birth, Passion and Resurrection. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the sacraments (including marriage).

    There can be NO debate over the Passion and Resurrection of Our Lord.

  34. Toad says:

    “There can be NO debate over the Passion and Resurrection of Our Lord.”
    So…take it or leave it.
    Right, Rogeb.
    The authentic (and slightly hysterical) Voice Of Catholicism. Where everything that is not forbidden – is compulsory.
    In a sane world, there is nothing that is not debatable.
    …But we ….Oh, never mind.

  35. Robert says:

    God has given Man Free Will and as article points out Man is destined live for eternity. The question is with a God who is Love or presumably the negation of God Hatred. Heaven or Hell. The yardstick for Man is eternity and this is conveniently sidestepped with Evolution but not with Creation.
    Man Created will live for ever the Free Will choice is Heaven or Hell.

  36. ginnyfree says:

    Toad, having some familiarity with your commentary style, I can only speak for myself in that hysterics or frenzy has yet to have happened for me at all after having read one of your comments. A good belly laugh or two, yes, I admit I’ve laughed at you and with you. I thank you for that. Life is too short to be taken very seriously. The Truth never changes no matter what folks say. THAT you can and should bank on. If they toss you, I’ll miss you strange as that may seem seeing as to the lengths you go to to remain hopelessly anti-socially a toad in all regards. So don’t get yourself banned, unless you simply need to for reasons of time constraints, etc. It is easier to get tossed than it is to remain and defend one’s position to those who know better and won’t be dissuaded from their course in life.

    God bless. Ginnyfree.

  37. kathleen says:

    @ Toad

    Who is being “hysterical” here Toad? You with your disproportionate and angry rants, or the rest of us who happen to see things differently?

    It is puzzling to me how you cannot see for yourself your slow decline into utter absurdity of late, whilst lashing out in a mean-spirited way to other commenters who disagree with you, not only on the above thread, but the “Accepting…etc.” and “Elton John…etc.” ones too! Not everyone wants to get into the type of knockabout wrangling you seem to enjoy so much (hence the above description of a subscriber’s views that the Moderator quotes), and you should respect that.

    As far as I can see, you are being asked by our Moderator to tone down your language (both in its crudity and mocking criticism of ‘opponents’), and not that anyone is threatening to ban you forever.

    One or two points you bring up in your 17:05 yesterday:
    1. [Man created in the Image and Likeness of God] you ask “then why are we all so hideously ugly?”
    Because of sin, Toad. Adam and Eve were created beautiful – the perfect Man and the perfect Woman – until the Fall, that is. We too scar our natural beauty (a.k.a. innocence, purity, interior peacefulness), and which is reflected in our faces and demeanour, when we turn from God and commit sin. The more one wallows in sin, the uglier we become.
    2. Re the “2% of material difference” (with apes) I mention that gets you all puffed up!
    Of course our bodies function in the same way as other mammals; this is why the difference here is so small. But Man is a Soul encased in a Body, and the Soul is what makes us Human, and thus on an immensely superior plane to that of the animals. This is what our Catholic Faith – and in fact that of all Monotheistic religions – is all about.
    (But then again, to an unbeliever, entrenched in material tangibility, this will be incomprehensible I suppose!)

    Coming back to comment on the subject of the above article, I am wondering if you have even read the rest of the article by Fr Mullady that I link to? The subject is actually The Nature of Death and not Evolution (which in any case, we have dealt with to exhaustion many times in the past) and this subject alone (Death) could have opened many lines of interesting debate. Man has always been fascinated by questions about his terraneal mortality that Father Mullady (through St Thomas Aquinas) digs into and finds answers to so brilliantly. It’s a pity the subject has been derailed, or at least mostly centred, to arguing about Creation vs. Evolution instead.

  38. kathleen says:

    JH @ 18:16 yesterday

    “And what if we have indeed “evolved” from some earlier Mark1 version of the homo genus? The very thought makes Roger and Robert want to jump off a bridge, but I can live with that idea and still be a sound Catholic, can I not?”

    Yes indeed, dear JH, I believe you can!😉 So does the magisterial teaching of the Church…

    In his 1950 encyclical, Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII states:
    “The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experiences in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter – for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.”

    And later, St John Paul II, as with Pius XII, stated that the critical teaching of the Church is that God infuses souls into man, regardless of what process he might have used to create our physical bodies. Science, the Pope insisted, can never identify for us “the moment of the transition into the spiritual”; that is a matter exclusively with the magesterium of religion.

    At least for some, this ‘hypothesis’ or ‘theory’ (and it is no more than that) would explain where Cain got his wife from!

    Personally, I hold more to the Creationist belief, but if the Church says either way is acceptable – the important point being faith in that God infused an immortal soul into Man at the beginning (and from that moment on he gained knowledge that he had been made in God’s Image and Likeness) – that is good enough for me.

    P.S. The lovely video you posted yesterday of Fr Charlie Fedy, the priest who guided you into the Catholic Church, was indeed very moving! How much we owe our ‘guardian angels’, those who open the gates for Truth to shine upon us, and how great will be their crown in Heaven one day.

  39. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, have you ever noticed the fact that none of those theories of evolution say word one about an after life?

  40. ginnyfree says:

    And since we are going there, here is some lines from Humani Generis that usually go ignored: “Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all things, and audaciously support the monistic and pantheistic opinion that the world is in continual evolution. Communists gladly subscribe to this opinion so that, when the souls of men have been deprived of every idea of a personal God, they may the more efficaciously defend and propagate their dialectical materialism. Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy which, rivaling idealism, immanentism and pragmatism, has assumed the name of existentialism, since it concerns itself only with existence of individual things and neglects all consideration of their immutable essences…..There is also a certain historicism, which attributing value only to the events of man’s life, overthrows the foundation of all truth and absolute law, both on the level of philosophical speculations and especially to Christian dogmas…..This attitude is not only plainly at variance with Holy Scripture, but is shown to be false by experience also……because sometimes even in these false theories a certain amount of truth is contained…..It is not surprising that novelties of this kind have already borne their deadly fruit in almost all branches of theology……………These and like errors, it is clear, have crept in among certain of Our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science. To them We are compelled with grief to repeat once again truths already well known, and to point out with solicitude clear errors and dangers of error…………… It remains for Us now to speak about those questions which, although they pertain to the positive sciences, are nevertheless more or less connected with the truths of the Christian faith. In fact, not a few insistently demand that the Catholic religion take these sciences into account as much as possible. This certainly would be praiseworthy in the case of clearly proved facts; but caution must be used when there is rather question of hypotheses, having some sort of scientific foundation, in which the doctrine contained in Sacred Scripture or in Tradition is involved. If such conjectural opinions are directly or indirectly opposed to the doctrine revealed by God, then the demand that they be recognized can in no way be admitted.*****I’m stopping to add my comments*****after these words of the wise & holy Pius XII, the following paragraph is added and be clear, the Holy Father is only calling for research and discussion NOT ACCEPTANCE OF NOR APPROVAL OF any and all theories of evolution. It is a distortion of the very kind the Encyclical warns of to claim the two are now compatible, Holy Scripture and its sealed treatment of the origins of all at the hand of their Creator and the science of evolution and its subsequent assimilation into all areas of philosophy, ethics and theology are not compatible. What we teach as a Church regarding the origins of creation and men and all things else are to be defended and preserved in their rightful place over and above all theories the minds of men can contrive. ********* ” For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter – for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.” So there ya have it, the REST of the Holy Father’s opinion about the Theory of Evolution and all its spawned children. It is okay to enter into “research and discussions” of the matter if you are one of the few men “experienced in BOTH fields” but it is in no way acceptable to any Catholic and cannot be believed or blended into our religion. Read the whole encyclical for yourself, not just the few cherries picked from it. May Jesus Christ be praised. http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

    God bless. Ginnyfree

  41. johnhenrycn says:

    “I’ve heard it said a man of faith needs no explanation but the man of no faith will find no explanation suitable.”

    So says Toad, quoting Ginnyfree who in turn is quoting Lee J. Cobb in his role as Deacon of Lourdes in The Song of Bernadette, who in turn is quoting Thomas Aquinas.

    Actually, I wouldn’t have known that except for watching the film tonight. Wise words indeed.

  42. Toad says:

    “Robert, have you ever noticed the fact that none of those theories of evolution say word one about an after life?”
    It would be very strange indeed if they did, Ginny. You might also have noticed that these theories never mention the importance of flossing after meals, either.
    (You seem to be aware of more “theories of evolution” than I am. I only know of one.

    However, I humbly accept the recent and well-deserved blizzard of rebukes. I can only plead that my increasing (physical) blindness is making me even more intractable and scratchy than usual. It might also eventually mean no more (or far less) computer time for Toad – which you will all agree is a mixed blessing.

  43. Toad says:

    I presume you wouldn’t think them “wise words” if the faith in question was, let us say, Hinduism, JH?

  44. Robert says:

    The Afterlife/Hades, the Soul, God, Creator, the Mazzaroth, wherever you find Man you find these consistent themes. I mention Homer because it has supernatural beings (sic Gods) as well as spirits in Hades. Spirits that have intellect and yet who are dead.
    The Nature of Death is a very important issue to remind Us that we live in a Fallen World
    The point is that these are not exclusive to the Faith but are common to the Ancients.
    What is different however is that Our Lord and Our Lady (the coming of the Messiah and the Virgin) to save Man was specifically identified with a chosen people (or rather Israel the tribes). This Messiah and the Land Of Milk and Honey (Chosen) was seen in material terms and not in Eternity.
    This confusion between the material and transient world and Heaven and Hell (since this is the what is commonly known as the afterlife). The Ancient expectations of a material Paradise have been ported into Our Age under the guise of Science/Economics/Political theory.
    Nazism and the superior Man is a sibling of Evolution. Marxism, Socialism, Capitalism all the ..isms I could go on and on. But its all about materialism.
    Our starting point is the Fall of Adam and Eve Original Sin and the loss of a world without Sin called the Garden. That world does not have death (separation of body and soul). That explusion into a world of death included a promise of a Saviour.
    Our Lord opened Heaven by His reparation for Original Sin. The perpetual sacrifice is about reparation for Sin. The sacraments are so that Man can reach Heaven.
    It seems this same blind error is repeated again and again which is to believe that a material Utopia(Paradise is possible without a Creator, its no different from the Israel view of a worldly Messiah).
    This generation is seduced into believing that it can build an earthly material paradise (Babel) without God and this is what Evolution is really about and has spawned this present Apostacy
    I personally think this is what Fatima refers to “in the End My Immaculate Heart will Triumph”.

  45. ginnyfree says:

    But I thought Toads had no teeth, therefore no flossing necessary! Ribbit, ribbit Toad. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  46. Toad says:

    Toad still has the odd one or two, Ginny.
    Same as with brain cells.

    “This generation is seduced into believing that it can build an earthly material paradise (Babel) without God and this is what Evolution is really about.”
    The Enlightenment philosophers thought that. They were wrong.
    I doubt if anyone seriously thinks it nowadays. But who knows? Roger knows.
    Evolution is not about earthly material paradises. It’s about kangaroos. And computers. (Amongst other things.)

  47. Robert says:

    Freemasonry and Enlightenment and the Grand Architect!
    Nowdays man has done something utterly stupid he has Apostacised.
    In other words has turned his back on the Messiah and is attempting to reverse the Incarnation, Passion and Ressurrection.
    The Church is the mystical Body Of Christ (that’s True God and True Man, Body Blood Soul and Divinity [which ties right in with the subject matter]) . Man therefor is choosing the Original Sin of Adam and rejecting in free will Christ! Actually Man is Self Centred and this is his undoing!
    But if Man rejects Heaven this leaves Hell.
    Fatima and the SUN ! which its self is the power of the Atom Bomb! Fatima properly looked at and understood fortells modern science! It fortold WW II which ended with the Fire from Heaven (Atom Bomb).

  48. Toad says:

    “Fatima properly looked at and understood foretells modern science! It foretold WW II which ended with the Fire from Heaven (Atom Bomb).”
    I thought it foretold in the Bible that the world will end, not in flood – as it nearly did before, when God got cross with us – but in fire.
    A prophecy a few thousand years before Fatima.
    I suppose my numerology doesn’t add up, Robort?.

  49. ginnyfree says:

    Be nice Toad or I’ll have to miss you………

  50. Robert says:

    Toad
    Fire but what do you mean by Fire? Material or spiritual?
    Consider Moses and the burning Bush (not material Fire)
    Consider Elias and the Fire that came down from Heaven.
    Consider the tongues of Fire at Pentecost (not material Fire)
    Consider the Fires of Purgatory (not material Fire)
    The Fires of Hell (clearly not material fire).
    There is a separation between the BC and AD because of the spiritual Earthquake that destroyed Satan’s hold on Man and opened Heaven. Creation after Our Lord is totally different because of His Passion and Resurrection.
    What I am trying to point out is that Fatima is contemporary with Einstein, airplanes, modern economics, modern inventions.
    Lucia was told of WW II and look how that War Ended Fire from Heaven?. I see God’s Providence at work in His Creation. I also see the difference between Cain (and his artisan descendants ) and Abel/Seth. That material paradise on Earth (Marxism and Evolution).
    Your numerology is interesting because a Day is a 1000 years to God (see Bible) St Dominic and St Francis would then be about the second day ( just over 1000 years ) from Our Lord. St Francis was told to rebuild the Church on Holy Poverty. St Vincent Ferrer (astonishing miracle worker and preacher) has wonderful sermons on the State of the Church at that time.
    Why did Heaven expressly refer to 1960? Remember Heaven knew of WW II even the sign in the sky (see by Hitler) that presaged that War. By 1960 we had entered the Nuclear (sic science of Fusion as per Sun). The explosion of material/inventions etc.. in 20 century and Apostacy from the Faith.
    The Bible requires prayer and penance. Its God’s Word His Book.
    Man is to regain Paradise (Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done On Earth As It is in Heaven) but in Christs time. Christ is restoring all things.
    So although Fire is mentioned if that Fire is the Holy Ghost (sic Pentecost) then the face of the Earth can renewed!

  51. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, the whole universe will be destroyed by fire then a new heaven and a new earth will be made, not from the old or not a renewal of the old, but a completely new. This is a physical reality, not just a spiritual one. It is the last stage of the 7 stages of the end of the world. Goes like this: stage 1 is the last day we are living in since the Ascension until Stage 2, the Conversion of the Jews to Christ, That gets followed by Stage 3 which has three parts – the Great Apostasy, the Tribulation and the Anti-Christ. Stage 4 is the 2nd Coming of Jesus which is followed by Stage 5 the Resurrection of the Dead with the Final Judgement of said dead folks after in Stage 6. Then comes Stage 7, when the world gets turned to toast along with everything in the Universe from the atomic level up and then the new Heaven and the new earth are made incorruptible and eternal and we live happily ever after in our glorified bodies with Jesus and Mary forever and ever and ever. Amen. Honestly. That’s pretty much it. Hopefully, I’ll see ya there! God bless. Ginnyfree.
    P.S. Some of the Scriptures you can use to verify my facts are: 2 Peter 3:10-13, Is, 65:17, Is. 66:22-24, and Rev. 21:1-5. Have fun.

  52. Toad says:

    Fascinating, all of it.
    Rather disconcerting to realise that certain individuals are roaming our streets – how can I put this most kindly – unsupervised. (But then, maybe they’re not.)

    “Fire but what do you mean by Fire? Material or spiritual?”
    I mean the stuff we use to make our hamburgers go brown, Robot.

    “Some of the Scriptures you can use to verify my facts are: 2 Peter 3:10-13, Is, 65:17, Is. 66:22-24, and Rev. 21:1-5. Have fun.”
    …An offer we would be foolish indeed to refuse.

    [One sentence removed by a Moderator]

  53. Robert says:

    The subject matter is the nature of death and St Thomas Aquinas. The duality of the nature of Man material and soul. A man can be materially dead and spiritual alive (sic the saints).
    This duality requires looking at Fire in relation to both parts of Man.
    The Dogma of the Assumption (Nov 1st 1950) Our Lady in Heaven body and soul and this Dogma transcends 20 Century. The Woman clothed in the Sun (Fatima).

  54. Robert says:

    Ginnyfree and Toad
    I cited the Assumption but would also add the Immaculate Conception.
    Its about the New Heaven and New Earth.
    Adam (means Red Earth) and the seed planted in Adam was Immortal Soul.
    Now the former Earth was Adam and He lost through Original Sin Heaven.
    Now the Immaculate Conception Adam body before the Fallen (conceived without Original Sin).
    See the Creed has of Our Lord conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary.
    In Jesus and Mary we see a New Heaven and New Earth! replacing the Fallen Earth and Heaven lost by Adam.
    This New Heaven and Earth has been left in the Eucharist!
    But if you are entrenched in materialism and evolution you are actually confusing the body (sinless) of Christ and Mary with Fallen Adam and mankind!
    The Holy Ghost and Fire well this Fire came form Heaven and Conceived the Son Of God in Our Lady’s womb.
    There are spiritual truths as well as material truths.

  55. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, to be honest your speculations and reflections are too far afield for my taste. You’ve got too many errors to be taken seriously at all. But keep trying. Learn what the Church actually teaches about the subjects from the Catechism instead of the back pages of the Garabandal’s Vigil. God bless. Ginnyfree

  56. Robert says:

    Ginny
    “If you could be so kind to supply me with the back pages of the Garabandal Vigil I would be grateful because I have never seen it nor read it.”
    “If you could kindly show me in the Catechism my errors I would be grateful”
    My source is the writings of the saints, the Holy Councils, the Doctors of the Church, The Fathers Of The Church.
    The Fathers Of the Church believed in the Assumption of St Joseph (you will not find that in the Catechism).
    This matter of Earth as Created and Fallen Earth is very important because Less and Less importance is being given to the Eucharist. The Body, Blood , Soul and Divinity (that Body in the Eucharist is NOT the Fallen Body of Adam) Do you NOT understand that in the hands of the priest the New Heaven and New Earth descends!
    Do you NOT understand that this whole matter of Death is because of the Sin of that created Man Adam. Understand that the New Earth (sic the Immaculate Conception was Assumed into Heaven NOT the Fallen Earth).
    What is certain is that Masonry (and the list was published in 1960’s) was entrenched in the Vatican, and was never exorcised. It follows that Masonic Free thinking is being imposed as the Faith on the Church.

  57. ginnyfree says:

    Robert, I already provided you with Scripture that clearly states that a New Heaven and a New Earth will be created by God after the old earth we live on is destroyed by fire all the way down to its elemental structures and this total destruction will include everything else in the entire universe. If you even bothered to read them, then you would no longer be stressing a spiritual interpretation of those Scriptures OVER the literal interpretation, which is that which the Church relies on. This is part of a basic premise upon which sound teaching about the 4 senses of Scripture and the actual rules for interpretation first year students learn. The literal is over and above all the other senses. What does this mean to our little discussion here? That the Scripture actually does describe physical events that will occur at some unknown point in time in the future. Those events include but aren’t limited to the end of the physical world in fire and another creative act by the hand of the almighty in which a new earth and new heaven will be made that will never pass away in which I plan to dwell with God and the rest of the Saints in glory. You would do well to actually read those Scriptures. Just the fact that you seem to think the allegorical sense should have pride of place over the literal means you haven’t utilized Catholic teachings on the study of Scripture. There are many available that you may want to utilize on the Net. One such aid is this done by Mark Shea and a few others. Here is a link: http://www.strangenotions.com/tools-for-thinking-sensibly-about-scripture/
    I sincerely hope you utilize this site as you seem very sincere, but misinformed. God bless. Ginnyfree

  58. ginnyfree says:

    P.S. Just so you know: Mr. Shea isn’t a Mason nor is the site affiliated in any way with a masonic plot to overthrow the Church, so you can trust it and me. Okay? Feel better soon.

  59. Robert says:

    Ginny
    For your entertainment the “Douay Fathers quoting the Fathers Of The Church”
    about 1 Peter 5 “..And that he writeth it from Rome, himself signifieth by saying: The Church that is in Babylonia saluteth you. *Where by Babylon meaneth Rome, as all antiquity doth interpret him: not, that he so calleth the Church of Rome, but the heathen state of the Roman Empire, which then, and 300 years after, unto the conversion of Constantine the Emperor, did persecute the elect Church of Rome, in so much that the first 33 Bishops thereof unto St. Sylvester, were all Martyrs. ”
    So we can talk of Babel know with the restoration of modern Babylonia which is Treaty of Rome (Masonic) Europe which NOW persecutes the Faith! Modern Masonic Europe = Babel.

    Now 2 Peter 3 (The Day of the Lord – which comes to ALL men individually and Of course on the Last Day commonly). The wages of SIN are Death and the Fire Of HELL this now individually and at the end collectively.

    Isias 65 and Apoc 21:1
    [17] For behold I create new heavens, and a new earth: and the former things shall not be in remembrance, and they shall not come upon the heart.

    Apoc 21
    [1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.

    These are the notes “The first heaven and the first earth was gone: being changed, not as to their substance, but in their qualities. ” Note THEIR QUALITIES because the Fallen World of Sin is subject to the Fires Of Hell but the World of Paradise (New Earth is FREE from SIN)

    Now lets deal with Evolution which is a Theory set in a Fallen World subjected to Death
    What place does Evolution have in Paradise? What about a body not subject to Original Sin such as the Immaculate Conception and Eucharist?

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