Pope Francis: Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays

Pope Francis answers questions from journalists aboard his flight from Yerevan, Armenia, to Rome June 26. (CNS/Paul Haring)

Pope Francis answers questions from journalists aboard his flight from Yerevan, Armenia, to Rome June 26. (CNS/Paul Haring)

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

ABOARD THE PAPAL FLIGHT FROM ARMENIA (CNS)  — Catholics and other Christians not only must apologize to the gay community, they must ask forgiveness of God for ways they have discriminated against homosexual persons or fostered hostility toward them, Pope Francis said.

“I think the church not only must say it is sorry to the gay person it has offended, but also to the poor, to exploited women” and anyone whom the church did not defend when it could, he told reporters June 26.

Spending close to an hour answering questions from reporters traveling with him, Pope Francis was asked to comment on remarks reportedly made a few days previously by Cardinal Reinhard Marx, president of the German bishops’ conference, that the Catholic Church must apologize to gay people for contributing to their marginalization.

At the mention of the massacre in early June at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, Pope Francis closed his eyes as if in pain and shook his head in dismay.

“The church must say it is sorry for not having behaved as it should many times, many times — when I say the ‘church,’ I mean we Christians because the church is holy; we are the sinners,” the pope said. “We Christians must say we are sorry.”

Changing what he had said in the past to the plural “we,” Pope Francis said that a gay person, “who has good will and is seeking God, who are we to judge him?”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is clear, he said. “They must not be discriminated against. They must be respected, pastorally accompanied.”

The pope said people have a right to complain about certain gay-pride demonstrations that purposefully offend the faith or sensitivities of others, but that is not what Cardinal Marx was talking about, he said.

Pope Francis said when he was growing up in Buenos Aires, Argentina, part of a “closed Catholic culture,” good Catholics would not even enter the house of a person who was divorced. “The culture has changed and thanks be to God!”

“We Christians have much to apologize for and not just in this area,” he said, referring again to its treatment of homosexual persons. “Ask forgiveness and not just say we’re sorry. Forgive us, Lord.”

Too often, he said, priests act as lords rather than fathers, “a priest who clubs people rather than embraces them and is good, consoles.”

Pope Francis insisted there are many good priests in the world and “many Mother Teresas,” but people often do not see them because “holiness is modest.”

Like any other community of human beings, the Catholic Church is made up of “good people and bad people,” he said. “The grain and the weeds — Jesus says the kingdom is that way. We should not be scandalized by that,” but pray that God makes the wheat grow more and the weeds less.

Pope Francis also was asked about his agreeing to a request by the women’s International Union of Superiors General to set up a commission to study the historic role of female deacons with a view toward considering the possibility of instituting such a ministry today.

Both Sister Carmen Sammut, president of the sisters’ group, and Cardinal Gerhard Muller, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, have sent him lists of names of people to serve on the commission, the pope said. But he has not yet chosen the members.

As he did at the meeting with the superiors, Pope Francis told the reporters that his understanding was that women deacons in the early church assisted bishops with the baptism and anointing of women, but did not have a role like Catholic deacons do today.

The pope also joked about a president who once said that the best way to bury someone’s request for action was to name a commission to study it.

Turning serious, though, Pope Francis insisted the role of women in the Catholic Church goes well beyond any offices they hold and he said about 18 months ago he had named a commission of female theologians to discuss women’s contributions to the life of the church.

“Women think differently than we men do,” he said, “and we cannot make good, sound decisions without listening to the women.”

During the inflight news conference, Pope Francis also said:

— He believes “the intentions of Martin Luther” were not wrong in wanting to reform the church, but “maybe some of his methods were not right.” The church in the 1500s, he said, “was not exactly a model to imitate.”

— He used the word “genocide” to describe the massacre of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians in 1915-18 because that was the word commonly used in his native Argentina and he had already used it publicly a year ago. Although he said he knew Turkey objects to use of the term, “it would have sounded strange” not to use it in Armenia.

— Retired Pope Benedict XVI is a “wise man,” a valued adviser and a person dedicated to praying for the entire church, but he can no longer be considered to be exercising papal ministry. “There is only one pope.”

— “Brexit,” the referendum in which the people of Great Britain voted to leave the European Union, shows just how much work remains to be done by the EU in promoting continental unity while respecting the differences of member countries.

— The Great and Holy Council of the world’s Orthodox churches was an important first step in Orthodoxy speaking with one voice, even though four of the 14 autocephalous Orthodox churches did not attend the meeting in Crete.

— When he travels to Azerbaijan in September, he will tell the nation’s leaders and people that the Armenian leaders and people want peace. The two countries have been in a situation of tension since 1988 over control of Nagorno-Karabakh, a predominantly Armenian enclave in Azerbaijan.

Update: Read Fr Z’s reaction to “Another papal trip, another papal presser, another papal kerfuffle”

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84 Responses to Pope Francis: Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays

  1. John says:

    The Pope’s comments are very much in line with those of His Eminence Reinhard Cardinal Marx who was a speaker here at a Conference in Trinity College Dublin of the Loyola Institute last week where he said that until ‘very recently’ the Church, but also society at large, had been ‘very negative about gay people… it was the whole society. It was a scandal and terrible’
    His Eminence speaks with authority, has a doctorate in theology,is a fine speaker with a very fine presence and is a member of the council of nine cardinals chosen by His Holiness Pope Francis to advise him.

  2. Robert says:

    In England the Liberal and Labour party between them brought in Laws (private members Bills) which later turned out to have provided legitimacy for the sexual proclavities amongst very high placed paedophiles.

    Seems the same applies to the Curia.

  3. johnhenrycn says:

    Pope Francis covers 6 or 7 or 8 important and divisive issues in less than an hour. On a plane. In a press scrum. Is it any wonder that, to quote Brother Burrito’s unhappy cry on the immediately preceding thread – “…this misconstruing of PF’s every utterance, jumping to conclusions…” has to be laid at PF’s doorstep?

  4. Robert says:

    John
    Perhaps the Doctors and Fathers of the Church were wrong over the Sin of Sodomy.
    That’s not the same as love and compassion for Our Neighbour of course. We all have Temptations and weaknesses, let him that is without Sin etc..
    We shouldn’t judge by exteriors either.
    Compassion to the individual penitent! But Not a approval to a grevious Sin.

  5. Brother Burrito says:

    Everyone is becoming more aware of the gay people amongst us. Even thirty years ago, awareness was minimal and spoken of in hushed tones, like cancer or some other “wickedness of the flesh”. I’m sure the percentage of gay people was just as high then, but it was just hidden and un-looked for and unknown.

    As an analogy, diabetes is apparently epidemic at the moment, according to the Daily Mail and its stablemates. NO IT ISN’T! We are just better at recognising it in people we never suspected it in before. Cancer seems more common but only because people aren’t dying so young from heart or occupational lung disease. The same applies to the ultimate disease nightmare: dementia.

    Longevity of life is not an absolute good. With it comes many diseases and consequent sufferings, the more one survives, the more one gathers. Suffering is not an absolute evil either. It is up to the individual soul to agree with God how much suffering one can accept before commending into His Hands one’s spirit, by maturely not consenting to further care.

    Getting back to gayness, which is an orientation not a sin, we find a huge number of our neighbours on Village Earth to have different sexual attraction to the rest of us, though they are in the minority. This does not stop them from being our neighbours! They are not biblical lepers to be banished!

    If we are totally honest about ourselves and all our human neighbours throughout space and time, we find that NOBODY except Jesus and His Mother were or are perfect AT ALL. In fact what unites all of us is our sinfulness, fallen-ness, poverty of spirit, weakness, imprisonment and bodily sickness.

    Out of Christ’s solidarity with our poor estate, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, the Church came into being. Like the most heroic and best hospital imaginable, it will never turn a soul away who seeks needingly for its hospitality.

    What it will do is refuse to declare that disease is wellness, that wrong is right, that cancer is only a lifestyle to be indulged. Amen!

  6. johnhenrycn says:

    John Kehoe relates approvingly an anecdote about a prelate who opines: “…until very recently the Church, but also society at large, had been very negative about gay people… it was the whole society. It was a scandal and terrible.”

    You just don’t seem to get it, Kehoe. Let’s ignore for now that “society at large” piffle: the Church is not very negative about *gay* people. Indeed, the Church is not negative about *gay* people at all. The Church and every member of it who has an ounce of sense and correct understanding of Christian theology and Christian love harbours an extreme prejudice against homosexual acts and the political/ideological bowel movement called homosexualism, not against the people who engage in it, because people who engage in it are our brothers and sisters, and they need healing from the terrible disorder from which they suffer, nothing less.

  7. johnhenrycn says:

    Brother Burrito says (17:23) – “Everyone is becoming more aware of the gay people amongst us. Even thirty years ago, awareness was minimal and spoken of in hushed tones, like cancer or some other ‘wickedness of the flesh’ “

    Seeing as you place scare quotes around “wickedness of the flesh” are we to presume that, in your view, homosexual acts are not wickedness of the flesh?

    “Even thirty years ago” I hired a flaming homosexual (well, okay, not a flaming one, but not a discreet one either) but I never treated him “like cancer”, which is to say that Christians who actually believe the words in the Bible condemning this sin are able to attack the ball, not the man.

  8. Magdalene says:

    And just where are gays marginalized? People are FORCED to bake them cakes, give them everything, let them walk naked and lewd in public, and bend over backwards to accommodate them. They are the so called ‘victims’ and have all the rights in the world and they are intolerant and hateful and if they do not get what they want, they will seek to destroy anyone who does not bow to them.

    Are there any heterosexual men in the Vatican these days?

  9. Brother Burrito says:

    Oh cripes JH, you are ever the lawyer. Can you point out to me where above exactly I said that homosexual acts ARE wickedness of the flesh (which they are by the way).

    I was addressing the evolving public awareness of the gay people in our midst, and well you know it you old rogue. They are there and will fight to the death against any attackers, with perfectly straight teeth and manicured/painted claws, or so I am led to believe.

    Was your homosexual employee any good at the job?

    Even balls should not be attacked. They should either be deflated, or better put in the custody of goals.

  10. Brother Burrito says:

    [REDACTED]

  11. kathleen says:

    JH @ 18:26

    Oh, well said, JH!
    No, the Kehoes and Marx of the world are just that, “of the world”, with no true love or care for the teachings of Christ and the Holy Catholic Church, nor for the final destiny awaiting those who indulge in unrepentant mortal sin.

    The boot is very much on the other foot in these present times. It is the homosexual and LGBT lobby, and their supporters, who are imposing their warped ideas in our schools, institutions, the MSM, and in our governments, side-lining and even threatening all those who disagree with them.

    Let’s just repeat one more time, what we have said over and again: no true Christian persecutes or even discriminates those with homosexual tendencies. Homosexuals are called to chastity, in the same way as all men – the calculated 1 – 2% who suffer from this disordered tendency of same-sex attraction, just as much as the 98 – 99% who are ‘straight’. Sexual relations are to be reserved solely for Holy Matrimony between one man and one woman. This is what God ordained from the very beginning, is the unchanging teaching of the Church too (although some of the rebel Cardinals wanted it altered at the recent Synod on the Family). Kindness towards all those who struggle with temptation goes without saying; are we not all sinners fighting some type of temptation or other?

    I’m disappointed we published this article without one of our usual comments . Left like it is, visitors could be under the impression that we on CP&S agree with those progressive views of our current Pontiff about *gays*.

    Sadly lacking in PF’s speech (as usual) is any mention that homosexual acts are gravely sinful, or any show of concern about the immortal souls of those who willingly indulge in them. A ‘shepherd’ who truly cares for his ‘sheep’ should surely want to protect them from the terrible danger of ending up in Hell by pointing out the evil of homosexual acts! He misses out on these opportunities every time.
    About some of the other comments of the Pope….
    – Martin Luther “not right” in some of his “methods”, when the breaking up of Christendom was the result of them? You can say that again!
    – Pleased he admitted that the extermination of 1.5 million Armenians was a “genocide”, as it evidently was. Too bad if Turkey “objects” to this truth.
    – The “work” the EU should do and that which would eventually unite European nations is a return to its Christian roots.

    Now I await the onslaught coming my way from Mr Kehoe…

    P.S. And a great observation from Magdalene at 19:30 too. Yup, that description of these poor so-called ‘victims’ fits the picture so well!

  12. johnhenrycn says:

    They certainly aren’t marginalized in my neck of the woods, Magdalene. Just today I received an e-mail from my governing body (no, not my wife – the other one) about Gay Pride Month for goodness sake!
    http://www.lsuc.on.ca/Pride2016Reg/
    A Gay Pride Parade lasting a few hours I can ignore, but a whole month?

  13. Brother Burrito says:

    JH,(20:05)

    I am sorry for your troubles.

    Can somebody organise a Straight Humility Month?

    That would be much more up my street, and I could walk along with it with eyes downcast.

  14. JabbaPapa says:

    We are being judged — and who are they to judge a Faithful Catholic ?

  15. John says:

    Robert,
    No, the Doctors of the Church and Fathers of the Church were not wrong about the sin of sodomy His Eminence Cardinal Marx was not approving a grievous sin nor, for what it is worth, am I. His address at Trinity College Dublin to the Loyola Institute, however, included his opinion that the Church owed an apology to gay people for its negative attitude towards them as persons. A very important difference.
    The problem with some contributions to this log, however, is the readiness, if not enthusiasm, of its authors to attribute subjective grievous sin to those involved in homosexual acts, In other words to make subjective judgments. The besetting sin of those who are themselves perfect is their condescension
    Johnhenrycn, My dear enemy, Be assured that I do indeed ‘get it’. Like I guess so many others, I have close friends and relations who are gay and who, looking back not too very far, feel resentful and hurt at the language and ugly words used by fellow Catholics, including priests, to describe, not just their actions, but themselves personally. It is this problem which Cardinal Marx dealt with in his recent address in Dublin.
    Would that those Catholics, including priests, who have offended in this matter had been instead inspired by the Christian sentiment expressed in the final two lines of your posting @ 18.26.
    O si sic omnes.

  16. johnhenrycn says:

    John Kehoe (12:40) says – “The Pope’s comments are very much in line with those of His Eminence Reinhard Cardinal Marx who was a speaker here at a Conference… [who has]… a doctorate in theology, is a fine speaker with a very fine presence…”

    Oh, alright then. The Pope is very much in line with a person who does not teach Catholicism but who has “a doctorate in theology, is a fine speaker with a very fine presence…”

    Even a Starbucks (“I’d Like A Hazelnut Frappuccino”) Catholic like you, Kehoe, cannot fail to see how *gay* that compliment is.

  17. David O'Neill says:

    He’s at it again!! Maybe we should forbid his travelling by air!!!!!!!!

  18. John says:

    Kathleen, My dear old enemy @19.59 Would you enlighten us as to how you know that those individuals who engage in homosexual acts are subjectively guilty of mortal sin which alone could condemn them to hell ?
    The problem is that perfect people like yourself are so very astute, and over anxious, in identifying mortal sin in others.

  19. johnhenrycn says:

    David O’Neill (20:58) – A slow boat to China (Peggy Lee/Bing Crosby version) is what our semi-sedevacantist friend, Robert John, would recommend.
    ___
    But speaking of YouTube, thank you GC for fixing my Have A Nice Rest Of Your Life YouTube link addressed John Kehoe.

  20. John says:

    Johnhenrycn, @ 20.45. My dear enemy,, I am afraid you are stretching it a bit. To say that a person has a very fine presence in terms of public speaking is to commend them as to how they come across as speakers. There are too many mutterers who are painful to listen to, or who distract by fidgeting while speaking. You above all as a lawyer, rural though it be, should know that.

  21. Brother Burrito says:

    DO’N,

    A thought has just occurred to me. At cruising altitude the partial pressure of oxygen in the cabin is considerably lower than at ground level. In fact it is equal to that at 8000 feet. This can affect anyone’s mentation, producing a dis-inhibited effect like being mildly drunk. The influence is greater with age. Some cases of “air rage” may be attributable to this phenomenon.

    I once witnessed an aero-medicine experiment where several learned friends entered a chamber and were sealed in. They performed some baseline mental tests, and were then subjected to sudden decompression equivalent to flying at 50000 feet without oxygen. For a minute or two they seemed fine, then some keeled over and others behaved oddly. The mental tests were repeated where possible, and showed massively poorer performance.

    My thought is that perhaps PF should be advised against giving press conferences whilst in flight and/or tired.

    Can anyone reading this pass this advice up the chain?

  22. If the Catholic Church is going to apologize to this group of people who commit one of the four sins that cry to heaven for vengance, then the Church should apologize to the other groups as well: murderers, oppressors of the poor, and those who defraud workers of their wages. After all, haven’t THESE groups been marginalized and discriminated against as much as the sodomites – uh, sorry – I mean, as much as gays?

    In the meantime, I pray: Dear God, preserve Your Church, we beg You. Bring an end to the destruction and horrors of this pontificate.

  23. mmvc says:

    Whoops. I’m the one who hurriedly posted this CNS article without an introduction, Kathleen (@19.58) Sorry to have caused you disappointment :o(

    Having put my hands up, I’m not sure that our readers really think that we subscribe to any of the Pope’s strange, ambiguous and un-Catholic utterances when we post reports of them on CP&S. Anyhow a glance at our combox would soon disabuse them and we often publish follow-up posts from solidly Catholic sources.

    Besides Jabba may point out some more mistranslations/misinterpretations for us and everything will be hunky dory ;o)

    Having said all that, please feel free to add a disclaimer to this post. Perhaps I’d better just stick to prayer…

  24. johnhenrycn says:

    Burrito (20:13) – “Can somebody organise a Straight Humility Month?”
    Not sure you meant it this way, but here’s the problem your question alludes to:
    http://www.healthline.com/health/directory-awareness-months

  25. johnhenrycn says:

    This is National Congenital Cytomegalovirus Awareness Month. I’ve no idea what that is, but it’s got to be more deserving of our charitable donations than Gay Pride Month.

  26. Brother Burrito says:

    JH, your list of “health awareness days/months” has just made me very sick.

    Thank you for the suffering. In Christ.

  27. kathleen says:

    Mmvc @ 21:39

    Ah, my dearest team-mate, Maryla, you are the last person on earth I would criticise for anything.😉 Sorry. I could just as easily have popped an “introduction” in myself, so I’m just as guilty, haha.

    I wonder if even Jabba is not beginning to get more than a little stumped on how to deal with defending the constant stream of Pope Francis’ “strange, ambiguous and un-Catholic utterances”.

    David and BB –😆
    Don’t we all DREAD these plane conferences of PF ? If only he could be stopped!
    But who’s going to break this news to the Holy Father? He so enjoys his off-the-cuff in-flight interviews where he doesn’t have to stick to a pre-prepared text but can gabble on with whatever comes into his mind. In fact, I think they reveal most of what he truly thinks, for he has no time to reflect on what blunder he might commit when the journalists’ questions (often loaded questions, looking for a shocking headline) are coming thick and fast.

  28. kathleen says:

    Mr John Kehoe @ 21:05

    “Kathleen, My dear old enemy @19.59 Would you enlighten us as to how you know that those individuals who engage in homosexual acts are subjectively guilty of mortal sin which alone could condemn them to hell ?”

    Catholic teaching, Mr Kehoe! You should know that. Were you not complaining that you were “force fed” Catholic doctrine as a child in olden days before V2 ? (Don’t know why you popped in the word “subjectively” there; “objectively” would have been more appropriate.)

    Glad you think of me, as (blush) “perfect”… but that appears to niggle you somewhat for some reason. Can’t think why!

  29. Robert says:

    John
    Thank you!
    Our Lord treated the Individual poor sinners with Love and Compassion. Think of the poor lepers!
    Our souls are judged as individuals, We should, without exception and being non judgmental, be good and kind neighbours (Christ like) seeking always the salvation of souls.

    The problem is here is perhaps sending the wrong signal that the Sin is OK. Remember that Our Lord pointed to Temptation and the Occasions of SIN. This is where the public parade of what is called Gay is actually encouraging the Sin of Sodomy.

  30. John says:

    Kathleen, Check your Catholic teaching of which you are so ostensibly expert lecturing us all with tiresome repetition about ‘mortal sin’. We can only commit mortal sin subjectively. Actions may well be objectively gravely sinful but individual persons may not gravely sin subjectively because of the absence of one or more of the three essentials for mortal sin. You should know that

  31. johnhenrycn says:

    BB: I was wrong to link that list of Health Awareness Days/Months because, as a medical man, you would see most of them as deserving of research dollars, as do I. No, I meant to link this list that includes Jazz Appreciation Month (yay!!), National Bike Month, Confederate History Month, National Honey Month and (drum roll please) LGBT Month.

  32. John says:

    Robert,
    I don’t agree with gay parades. They are vulgar and ostentatious. However, I draw the line at imputing grave personal sin to individuals, a licence one or two on this blog have assumed with alacrity.

  33. johnhenrycn says:

    “However [says Kehoe] I draw the line at imputing grave personal sin to individuals, a licence one or two on this blog have assumed with alacrity.”

    Poor grammar, or are you translating from the Irish tongue? That aside, who here has imputed “grave personal sin to individuals with alacrity” or non-alacrity even?

  34. johnhenrycn says:

    …looking again at your words, Kehoe (22:58) I see no grammatical error, but your accusation that “one or two” here have imputed grave personal sin to “individuals” still needs to be answered.

  35. The Raven says:

    What’s missing, John? Full knowledge or consent?

  36. kathleen says:

    Mr Kehoe, if as you say *gay* parades are “vulgar and ostentatious” (which they undoubtedly are), with the vulgar and ostentatious behaviour of the “individuals” participating therefore being clearly subjectively sinful, then you are not practicing what you preach! Naughty, naughty.

    Alacrity? Condescension? Mockery? You know all about these things, don’t you Mr Kehoe?

    Eyes, motes, beams… (yawn) Yes, we’re all guilty here. You as much as anybody else.

    But some point out where error lies for the good of souls (i.e., “admonish the sinner” is a work of charity) and to defend Church teaching. While others do so from an arrogant position of self-convinced superiority.

  37. johnhenrycn says:

    Kehoe (21:20) says: “You above all as a lawyer, rural though it be…” Ha, ha! Now that really is poor grammar; but in this Year of Mercy…etc. etc…

    …But again, who are the “one or two” people here who you say (22:58) have imputed grave personal sin to “individuals”? You should be home now from your nightly (and well deserved) excursion to the Dog and Duck, and I would appreciate a straight (or not too woozy) answer

  38. toadspittle says:

    “…And just where are gays marginalized? People are FORCED to bake them cakes, give them everything, let them walk naked and lewd in public, and bend over backwards to accommodate them.”
    Said Magdalene at 7.30 pm yesterday.
    …Toad will not bother making the obvious comment.
    Which would be censored, anyway.

  39. JabbaPapa says:

    A thought has just occurred to me. At cruising altitude the partial pressure of oxygen in the cabin is considerably lower than at ground level. In fact it is equal to that at 8000 feet. This can affect anyone’s mentation

    That is a VERY good point, BB

  40. JabbaPapa says:

    mmvc :.

    Besides Jabba may point out some more mistranslations/misinterpretations for us and everything will be hunky dory

    Not this time I’m afraid …😦

  41. John says:

    johnhenrycn, My dear enemy. Are we now shifting ground from Kathleen’s obsession with mortal sin, of which she is the expert, to your grammatical pedantry ? But you really should consult with the works of Eric Partridge, George Henry Vallins, or, better still, Charles Talbut Onions before launching an attack on points of grammar. Nothing like first knowing your Onions.
    Or listen to the cautionary words of Alexander Pope :
    ‘ A little learning is a dangerous thing,
    Drink deep or taste not the Pierian spring,
    There shallow drafts intoxicate the brain.’….
    The Raven. Not being judgmental I do not say which if any of the three elements for mortal sin may be missing in any or all cases. That is for God alone although it is a divine function often usurped on this blog,
    Dear Kathleen, My dear enemy. Here we go again.You are imputing subjective sin to others. I have not done so and therefore do not contradict myself. The gay parades are in my opinion vulgar and ostentatious, no more than that

  42. mmvc says:

    ‘The gay parades are in my opinion vulgar and ostentatious, no more than that’

    Really, John? Do the words ‘scandal’ and ‘millstone’ ring a bell? I suggest you check this out:

    http://connecticutcatholiccorner.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/gay-pride-parades-are-child-abuse.html

  43. JabbaPapa says:

    You are imputing subjective sin to others

    No she isn’t. oh and BTW while we’re here, DO please put an end to your extremely distasteful practice of addressing your correspondents in here as “my enemy”, lest what you claim in pedantic mockery become actual fact.

  44. John says:

    mmve While others have no such inhibitions, I do not presume to enter the consciences of participants in gay parades in order to make make personal judgments as to their sinfulness or otherwise. The parades do not scandalize me, nor I dare say you, but are more sad than reprehensible. If Kathleen is not imputing subjective sin to others then why not leave them alone instead of continually raising the spectre of ‘mortal sin’. ?
    JabbaPapa. Those whom I address in the manner of which you disapprove have from the word go on CP&S opposed virtually every comment I have ever made, often in insulting and personal terms and are thus, as adversaries, constituted my dearest enemies.

  45. Brother Burrito says:

    Dear Mr Kehoe,

    Our “Chief Executive” would rather that we all learn to love our enemies. To understand all is to forgive all-and no sulking!

    Also, try to remember this blog is not somewhere to pick fights. It’s not about you or me or them.

    We have just rejected WordPress’s proffered automatic moderator droid (ED-209), based on this recent presentation to the CP&S board:

    We still prefer the human touch here😉

  46. JabbaPapa says:

    Those whom I address in the manner of which you disapprove have from the word go on CP&S opposed virtually every comment I have ever made

    I don’t care, because many of your comments are theologically objectionable — whereas your accusations of enmity OTOH are not only unchristian and distasteful, but they also foster hostility and strife.

    Do you fail to understand that one might be antagonistic to your ideas without any hatred against your person ? Was this notion of forgiveness and forbearance never explained to you in basic Catechesis ?

  47. John says:

    JabbaPapa, My comments have always been based on ‘Judge not’ which, far from being theologically objectionable, are scripturally sound but I do object to being the object of boorish personal comment by way of ad hominem attacks often with a derogatory Irish slant

  48. JabbaPapa says:

    far from being theologically objectionable, are scripturally sound

    The notion that theology starts and ends with the Scriptures is not only Protestant, but objectively false. Not one single sect of Protestantism comes even close to the sola Scriptura nonsense that they claim for themselves, or when was the last time you put yourself into seclusion for the purpose of purification rituals, or sacrificed a calf upon the altar of worship ?

    ad hominem attacks

    I do get so tired of those who fail to understand what constitutes ad hominem

    My comments have always been based on ‘Judge not’

    This is directly inconsistent with the FACT that you treat others in here as your “enemies”.

  49. John says:

    JabbaPapa,
    The enmity is indeed factual and ab initio, but not from my side. I am merely recognizing the obvious; not making a subjective judgment.

    [ED-209 writes: Cease and desist from your truculent hostility! You have 5 comments to comply!]

  50. mmvc says:

    John @ 12:00
    Young impressionable people and innocent CHILDREN in countless towns and cities across the globe are not only witnessing but are actively being drawn into these parades which (in stark contrast to organisations such as this: https://couragerc.org), actually celebrate both homosexuality and homosexual ‘acts of grave depravity’. That alone is scandalous and seriously sinful. Only God can judge the individual sinner, but as Kathleen has already reminded you, for the good of souls and out of charity His followers MUST recognise and call out these evils and their perpetrators for what they are. How much stronger could Our Lord have worded His warning: “… better for him (who causes scandal to the little ones) if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea.”? So yes, for that reason amongst many others, these events are not merely ‘sad’ but reprehensible and scandalous.

  51. toadspittle says:

    “Don’t we all DREAD these plane conferences of PF ? If only he could be stopped!”
    Will no one rid us of this turbulent priest?

    “But some point out where error lies for the good of souls (i.e., “admonish the sinner” is a work of charity) and to defend Church teaching. While others do so from an arrogant position of self-convinced superiority.”
    Will someone please explain to Toad how he can tell the one from the other?

    “To understand all is to forgive all-and no sulking!”
    Where does that leave eternal damnation? I don’t have to spell it out again. (I hope.)

    In my estimation, there are few thing more “vulgar and ostentatious” than a parade of soldiers marching in step like automatons, wearing absurd uniforms, bayonets glittering, drums beating, flags waving, etc. etc. As Einstein said, “You don’t need a brain for that – only a spinal column.”
    Matter of taste, though, of course.

  52. John says:

    mmve Since the moderator has accused me of ‘truculent hostility’ and has asked me to desist I regret that I am not in a position to respond to your post @ 14.57 directed at me

  53. mmvc says:

    Perhaps that’s for the best, John.

    God bless!

  54. kathleen says:

    Mr John Kehoe has never explained what he considers to be a mortal sin. All his outpourings here have been to attack orthodox Catholic teachings and to defend the teachings of Modernism, and then to pounce on anyone who disagrees with him (using scornful and pedantic language). When this is pointed out to him, he immediately plays the victim card.

    I’m afraid to say that he is clearly a sad case of someone suffering from a strong persecution complex. As he won’t listen to reason – even that patiently offered him by Jabba, mmvc, The Raven, BB and others, he would be better off giving blogging a rest. He’s an elderly man and all this bickering and arguing he feels compelled to do cannot be good for his blood pressure.

    God bless and goodbye, Mr Kehoe

  55. John says:

    Kathleen i never thought that I would have to explain to an expert on mortal sin that it involves grevious matter, perfect knowledge and full consent of the will all three existing concurrently.. If you think I have a persecution complex I believe you have what is known as dementia praecox, delusions of spiritual grandeur of a campaigning variety to save the world all on your own
    Goodbye to you.

    [Moderator – Er, “not being judgmental” were you saying, John?]

  56. johnhenrycn says:

    Erin go Bragh, John, and póg mo thóin.

  57. John says:

    Johnhenrycn. The customary vulgarity from you on a blog which supposedly maintains the high Catholic moral ground, God help us.

    [ED-209 writes: You have only 3 comments left to comply!]

  58. The Raven says:

    The Raven. Not being judgmental I do not say which if any of the three elements for mortal sin may be missing in any or all cases. That is for God alone although it is a divine function often usurped on this blog,

    A cowardly equivocation, if ever I read one, John. Why don’t you just come out and say what is apparent: you dissent from the Church’s teaching on this issue.

  59. toadspittle says:

    “I’m afraid to say that (John) is clearly a sad case of someone suffering from a strong persecution complex.”
    How Kathleen can write that with a straight face is nothing short of miraculous. This blog screams “persecution,” every 15 minutes, with the monotony of a “Speak-Your-Weight,”* machine – any time anyone mildly suggests Catholicism might not have all the answers to everything.
    (Ah, Toad – but that’s genuine persecution.)

    John’s trouble is that he takes all this lunacy seriously. Big mistake, John.
    Laugh at them, and let them laugh back at you. You’ll generally come off better.
    And, if you don’t, well what the hey? …You’ve made you point. Laugh, and the world laughs with you – whine, and you whine alone. That’s Toad’s motter.

    *e.g. – Ed-209. “JH: Seventeen- stone, four pounds. Next!”

    “póg mo thóin.”
    What if Toad had said that? He’d cop a bit more of the old Extra Bold, I suspect.

  60. Brother Burrito says:

    That’s the spirit Toad:
    Light-hearted seriousness, and always be ready to admit you might be wrong.

  61. kathleen says:

    Mr John Kehoe @ 20:47 yesterday

    So if you know what constitutes ‘a mortal sin’, Mr Kehoe, you had better take back all that ignorance you were pretending earlier, whilst making false accusations against me. And you say you are a lawyer? Isn’t that called ‘perjury’ in legal terms?

    As for my thinking that I could “change the world all on my own” – well, well, well. Little me? All on my own?
    I shall have to disenchant you; I don’t even know how to change a punctured tyre!

  62. kathleen says:

    On Father Z’s blog, where trolls and Agnostics are not allowed to trespass, I saw this comment from someone called kiwiinamerica on the linked article we give below the above post. It’s strong language, but I think it reflects pretty well what many Catholics are feeling these days:

    “Francis owes us an apology.

    The intervals between “crazy talk” outbursts from Francis are getting shorter.

    He talks as if we’re in the middle of some sort of anti-homosexual pogrom. It’s Christians who are under the hammer, not homosexuals. Did he offer any words of support for the brave men and women who are losing their jobs and their livelihoods due to the lavender onslaught against them because they refuse to accept homosexual “marriage”? Any word of support for the Catholic teacher in Canada, suspended because he spoke the truth about Catholic teaching on homosexual relationships? This is the state of play right now. In saying that “homosexuals deserve an apology”, he casually threw under the bus all the brave Christian men and women who are fighting this tide of homosexual immorality and decadence.

    In FrancisChurch, everyone gets an apology. Everyone, except faithful Catholics who love the Church and who have been forced to watch helplessly for the past 50 years while the Mass is trashed, altar rails are ripped out, churches vandalized, sound catechesis goes down the gurgler, dissidents run amok, homosexual clergy molest altar boys and cost the Church billions, seminaries run off good young men, vocations collapse, nuns toss away their habits and go crazy and our children leave this spiritual wasteland. Any signs of an apology for us?

    Do you get the enormity of what’s happened over the past three years yet, folks? Firstly, A reigning Pope jacks it in. His successor then commences to ridicule and abuse priests and faithful Catholics in the most intemperate, derogatory, uncharitable language and then we’re told that we’re supposed to “value” the “good” in homosexual relationships, or we’re just a bunch of “rigid” so-and-sos!! We get an encyclical on air-conditioning, two rigged Synods and then a summary which was ghost-written before the Synods even took place and which produces a clear rupture with the writings of St. John Paul II.

    Move along now……… nothing to see here.

    This is the lavender pontificate. They have taken over the Church’s hierarchy. Remember Mother Angelica’s famous soliloquy…..“I’m so tired of you, liberal Church in America……”?? That’s where many of us are right now with regard to the wider Church and this pontificate, in particular. We’ve had it with all this “Francis-shtick” and his lavender acolytes.”

  63. Michael says:

    It is concerning that a reporter puts to the Pope the proposition that some people blame Christians for the attitudes responsible for the Massacre of homosexual people in Orlando and rather than stand up for his flock he states that Christians should apologise to gays for discernment that doesn’t favour homosexual political ideals.

    A good leader would have cared for his sheep by pointing out that it is out of line to hold Christians accountable for a gay Muslim (albeit not living by the ideals of his faith) man killing people because he was angered that men with HIV had sex with him. Christians cannot be blamed for Islam, promiscuous gay sex or irresponsible sexual behaviour. We also teach things completely contrary to murdering people who make us angry (eg. Do unto others… and Thou shalt not murder) Christians (other than the most liberal) have always called for people to follow the Christian faith (not Islam or atheism) and to have sex only in marriage (not in gay orgies). What is the Pope thinking?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-shooting-man-who-says-he-was-omar-mateen-gay-lover-speaks-out-univision/

  64. Michael says:

    Question: “…In the days following the shooting in Orlando, many have said that the Christian community had something to do with this hate toward these people. What do you think?”

    Pope Francis: I will repeat what I said on my first trip. I repeat what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says: that they must not be discriminated against, that they must be respected and accompanied pastorally. One can condemn, but not for theological reasons, but for reasons of political behavior…Certain manifestations are a bit too offensive for others, no? … But these are things that have nothing to do with the problem. The problem is a person that has a condition, that has good will and who seeks God, who are we to judge? And we must accompany them well…this is what the catechism says, a clear catechism. Then there are traditions in some countries, in some cultures that have a different mentality on this problem. I think that the Church must not only ask forgiveness – like that “Marxist Cardinal” said (laughs) – must not only ask forgiveness to the gay person who is offended. But she must ask forgiveness to the poor too, to women who are exploited, to children who are exploited for labor. She must ask forgiveness for having blessed so many weapons. The Church must ask forgiveness for not behaving many times – when I say the Church, I mean Christians! The Church is holy, we are sinners! – Christians must ask forgiveness for having not accompanied so many choices, so many families…

  65. toadspittle says:

    I think Francis is not saying that being a Gay is particularly good – just that there are a lot of other worse ways to be. Such as vicious and venomous, uncharitable, intolerant, and full of hate for others with different opinions to us. I think he’s right.
    But what do I know?

    “…altar rails are ripped out..”
    We never hear about the altar rails at The Last Supper, do we? Why not, do we think? Could it be that there weren’t any? …That Christ didn’t serve bread and wine to His friends from the other side of a low wall?

    [A moderator writes: If you think the Pope is right perhaps YOU could be less vicious and venomous, uncharitable, intolerant, and full of hate too in your offerings here.]

  66. toadspittle says:

    “That’s where many of us are right now with regard to the wider Church and this pontificate, in particular. We’ve had it with all this “Francis-shtick” and his lavender acolytes.”
    Better do something about it then, hadn’t you? Talk is cheap…. And the more there is of it, the cheaper it gets.

  67. John says:

    Moderator, Since you have decided to limit the number of my comments without similarly restricting the comments of adversaries I do not wish further to partake in this slanted debate where in any event it is a case of one against the rest who are of uniform mind anyway.

    [A moderator writes: John – the uniform mind of your imaginary adversaries might have something to do with them all adhering to orthodox Catholicism and not modern liberal ideas]

  68. toadspittle says:

    “..in any event it is a case of one against the rest who are of uniform mind anyway.”
    That’s what makes it all worthwhile, John. Do you think it bothers me?

  69. Robert says:

    John my heart and prayers go out to you. Making a distinction between the poor abused souls and their abusers.
    Gods Love and Mercy go hand and hand with His Justice.
    What is of God in the relationship between Man and Woman. Its set out in Genesis they are from one Created flesh (Adam’s) but unique and different souls and traits. Thus with the sacrament of Marriage the two shall become one. Chastity is an essential element in Marriage which the world and the flesh wants you to forget.
    Now the world of the sixties and its definition of love was self gratification if you like mutual self gratification. But always the self driving the gratification. This self is expressed as rights husband’s rights and wife’s right’s

    1 Paul Corinthians 7
    [4] The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

    What does the Scripture tells Us however is that Our Bodies are Christs! Not our Own!
    1 Paul to Corinithians 6
    [15] Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

    So no lets review this same sex sexual relationships (not friendships which is very different being founded on love of neighbour).
    It is a perversion of marriage because only husband (man) and wife (woman) can become and are one flesh. This isn’t a union blessed with fecundity by God its an abomination in His sight, so much so that Sodom was destroyed for this Sin

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sodom-and-gomorrah-destroyed-by-a-comet-say-astronomers-1275763.html
    Sodom and Gomorrah may have been destroyed by debris from a comet, startling new archaeological and astronomical research suggests.

  70. johnhenrycn says:

    Toad croaks (04:59) – John’s trouble is that he takes all this…seriously. Big mistake, John.
    Laugh at them, and let them laugh back at you.”

    John’s trouble is not that. John’s trouble is that whilst most issues we discuss are indeed serious and important, he does not productively discuss them with his consistent, intentional and strenuous efforts to emphasize his disagreements with the majority – and btw, that majority is a fluctuating thing. I don’t say that he’s troll, but he has troll-like tendencies, not to mention priggish Mrs Grundy ideas of what’s humorous. He’s probably the one man here who’s never told a joke – vulgar or not – nor even a slightly self-deprecatory story to show that he’s human as well as Irish. Furthermore, if you want to know my opinion (© Ena Sharples, Coronation Street, c.1962) this *Pope* of Dublin gets shivers of pleasure displaying his dyspeptic, unorthodox personality. He hopes people will be shocked – “SHOCKED!” I say – when he displays his weirdness in all its peacock glory.
    ___
    Canada Post is going on strike this Canada Day (July 1) and my intended letter of congratulations will not arrive in time; but I always like to remember the day this website was born – July 4th, 2010 – and so on behalf of my friend John Kehoe and myself, thank you, CP&S and all of your commenters for six years of good Catholic conversation!

  71. JabbaPapa says:

    John : “against

    This one word sums it all up, really.

  72. toadspittle says:

    Takes all sorts, Dunnit?

    “(John’s) probably the one man here who’s never told a joke…”
    Well, he made me laugh. Of course, the women on here never tell jokes. (As far as I can see.)
    Still, after digesting JH’s searching and merciless character analysis, John’s only remaining recourse is seppuku.

    John : “against” This one word sums it all up, really.

    Early footage of our friend.

  73. Brother Burrito says:

    Dear JH,

    Our robot moderator ED-209 confided to me that he too thought Mr Kehoe was a troll. He cited K’s lack of humour and openness to discussion, his adversarial approach and of course the ad hominems.

    Quite mercifully, for a robot, ED-209 offered Kehoe five chances to change his tune. K still has three comments left, should he re-appear. If he makes one decent Catholic contribution here, the counter will be reset to five, ED assures me.

    If he wastes this opportunity, ED will dispatch K permanently to the bottom of our very deep spam-pit.

  74. kathleen says:

    JH @ 03:52

    “I always like to remember the day this website was born – July 4th, 2010 – and so on behalf of my friend John Kehoe and myself, thank you, CP&S and all of your commenters for six years of good Catholic conversation!”

    And a giant ‘thank you’ on behalf of all the team to you, JH, whose comments here have so enlivened, informed, amused and entertained us for so many years. Where would we be without the enriching and unique contributions you, Jabba, and so many others (too numerous to name) have added to our conversations on all the wide-ranging spectrum of articles we have published?

    Not so sure Mr John Kehoe would really be thanking us though!😉

    (Your analysis of the real “trouble” with Mr Kehoe was amazingly accurate. It was what I was thinking all along without any of us being able to spell it out so insightfully and coherently as you have now done. Although Jabba’s: “John : “against” This one word sums it all up, really”, says it all too.)

  75. kathleen says:

    Toad @ 5:42

    “Of course, the women on here never tell jokes. (As far as I can see.)”

    Well, you evidently can’t “see” very well then, Toad! I’m wounded to the core… did my “punctured tyre” comment not amuse you?😦

    Us “gals” (pace Ginny) may not tell the kind of jokes some of the “fellas” make, e.g. “Three blokes walked into a pub: a Scot, a Frenchman and a German, blah, blah, etc…..”; our humour is more subtle and feminine😉 but who would deny we can joke and laugh just as well as our boys?

    Have you also forgotten our wonderful GC (absent here of late) with her sharp and incomparable wit?

  76. toadspittle says:

    “Well, you evidently can’t “see” very well then, Toad! I’m wounded to the core… did my “punctured tyre” comment not amuse you?😦”
    Yes, indeed, Kathleen – but for reasons that would never enter your head.

    “..but who would deny we can joke and laugh just as well as our boys?”
    Honestly? Well, me, for one. (…And I do not expect support here.).

    Have you also forgotten our wonderful GC (absent here of late) with her sharp and incomparable wit?
    Not for a moment. But I fear she may be dead, in some hideous “Act of God,” like a tsunami or earthquake, or epidemic of Herod’s Evil. Her part of the world is sadly susceptible to them. And I also pray that I am wrong on this score.
    She often had me, as you would felicitously put it, “…in stitches.”

  77. JabbaPapa says:

    when I say the ‘church,’ I mean we Christians because the church is holy; we are the sinners,” the pope said. “We Christians must say we are sorry.”

    This is actually not as bad as some have portrayed it to be, but it’s dubious that he should have couched these statements in reference to gays specifically, and Christians specifically, in a, answer to a question about the massacre at Orlando, given that one would suppose that many of the victims of that Islamic lone wolf terrorist attack must have been Christians themselves, but also because it boils down to a necessity for reparations after sins — except that he’s suggesting that Christians might somehow be collectively guilty in relation to Orlando and gay-murdering ???

    OK it’s certainly the job of the Holy Father to be a voice for all Catholics, including those who may have committed such sins, and because the earthly Church is corporately responsible for the sins of Catholics in a certain spiritual sense the Pope can certainly make a prayer of reparation and reconciliation, but it can hardly be right to do this so carelessly and casually in the face of a tendency that is intrinsically ordered towards objective moral evils.

    Of course, the actual persecution(**) of gays for unjustifiable pseudo-religious reasons focused on hatred constitutes a part of the objective moral evils in question, and any Christian and any Pope can certainly be sorry that it should exist, but the precise difficulty of expressing this in a properly balanced manner should have led to greater care in his statements during the interview.

    (**) i.e. not just an ordinary attitude of tolerance and forbearance that still does not actively promote homosexuality as if it were somehow virtuous and positive

  78. toadspittle says:

    “(**) i.e. not just an ordinary attitude of tolerance and forbearance that still does not actively promote homosexuality as if it were somehow virtuous and positive”

    Well put, Jabba – Except I’d make a greater distinction between “virtuous,” and “positive,” – today’s gays are just as positive as anyone else. But they are no more virtuous than anyone else, often less.
    But these are generalisations. Gays tend to be identified with the more recognisable examples of their persuasion. Same as anyone. Homosexuality ( in my opinion) ought to be tolerated, but certainly not promoted. Same as celibacy. Except, sometimes gays go too far. So do I (…or did) – celibates never do. …Good for them.

  79. kathleen says:

    Jabba @ 6:38

    Thanks for this, Jabba; you always give us plenty to think about.

    “Greater care” in the Holy Father’s pronouncements is something that is GREATLY needed. That is why there is such a strong call to put an end to these in-flight press conferences, where he does not have time to measure his words between the bombardment of questions coming his way.
    Is he not informed of the scandal some of these off-the-cuff statements produce?

    About “persecution of homosexuals” – in all honesty, I have never seen any of this in our Western world. They were discriminated against in the past it seems, mostly in a concealed manner, but now they have grown in number (through choice of homosexual ‘identity’) and have become very powerful. We all know about their persecution in many Islamic countries, and horrid stories of beatings up in Russia by groups of ultras, but here they are more than tolerated, often being admired and pandered to.
    In fact, as many commenters have already pointed out, it is Christians who are often the victims of the hatred and intolerance of the militant homosexual lobby.

  80. kathleen says:

    Toad @ 13:11 yesterday

    Hmm, Toad sounds peeved! As is usual these days.
    (There was a time we girls laughed at some of your jokes in the distant past – remember how I re-named you CP&S’ resident jester? That is, until they turned consistently coarse and intentionally mean.)

    Ah yes, our dear GC, whose witty comments you often called “snitty”, and who once said about you: “He scarcely has to see a tone before desiring to lower it.”

  81. toadspittle says:

    “Peeved,” Kathleen? Not a bit. But if you can derive comfort from thinking that – go right ahead.
    It’s not Toad that has changed, and grown “peeved,” but the entire tone of CP&S. It’s got far more hysterical and paranoid – clearly since Benedict hung up his beanie, and since the arrival of the evil Pope Francis. This surely can’t be denied. (Some of your own people admit it.)
    So don’t blame me Well, in fact you can if you like – because I don’t care. I will offer it up for the souls in Purgatory.

    Has GC gone the way of Joyful? Oblivion? I pray not. I much enjoyed her “snitty” comments.
    And I think she occasionally enjoyed mine. However…

  82. kathleen says:

    No Toad, I get no “comfort” from your recent peevishness; in fact I miss the old Toad who often used to make me laugh at his wicked but mostly harmless humour.

    Don’t worry, our dear GC is still around – have’t you noticed her avatar ‘liking’ some posts, and fixing the odd glitch, like the ‘gremlins’ attacking one of JH’s videos?

    And talking of videos, that’s a lovely one of the great Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. What a team they made!

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