Robert Moynihan Keeps Fatima Questions Alive

By Maike Hickson at OnePeterFive:

Dr Robert Moynihan with Pope Benedict

Dr Robert Moynihan with Pope Benedict

After OnePeterFive caused a controversy in Rome concerning the question as to whether or not the full Third Secret of Fatima has already been revealed, this same issue has again been picked up, but now by Dr. Robert Moynihan, himself the editor of the monthly magazine Inside the Vatican. In two different editions of his own regular Letters from the Journal of Robert Moynihan, Moynihan speaks about his own early 2007 personal conversation with the recently deceased Cardinal Loris Capovilla, the private secretary to Pope John XXIII himself.

Moynihan first, in his 27 May 2016 Moynihan Letter #48, starts by mentioning the OnePeterFive Controversy and the Vatican Press Office’s response:

There are five stories that I am [concurrently] following at this time [May 2016], all inter-related:

(1) the mystery surrounding the 40-year-delayed publication of the “Third Secret” of Fatima in the year 2000, and the recent [May 2016] controversy over whether something concerning that secret still needs to be clarified, which has become a matter of polemics in recent days, and has involved an unprecedented May 21 Vatican Press Office denial [emphasis M.H.]attributed to Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI (link and link);

The other four stories mentioned are: the recent controversial Gänswein speech, raising questions once more about the background of Pope Benedict’s resignation; the history and background of the Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia (as revealed by Sandro Magister); the question of the mass immigration into the Europe and the pope’s support of it; the Fatima prophecy concerning a future reign of peace after the consecration of Russia and its relation to the current crisis in the Middle East.

Dr. Moynihan proceeds to describe how he met with Antonio Socci and Solideo Paolino in 2006 – both of whom had publicly spoken about the existence of a still-missing part of the Third Secret of Fatima – and how he himself had then met Cardinal Capovilla in 2007.

In his subsequent 29 July 2016 Moynihan Letter #49 – which was delayed due to his travels and due to his somewhat serious and unexpected health problems – Dr. Moynihan continues, though briefly, to relate first what Cardinal Capovilla implicitly told him, and then what he himself was later able to hear from different sources in Rome concerning the topic of Fatima. In the following report, I shall therefore quote Dr. Moynihan himself extensively, so as to present his own careful and cautious testimony.

First, let us see what he says about Cardinal Capovilla:

Capovilla had received me years before [his 2007 visit]in the same place. We had spoken for an hour of the vision of John XXIII of a world at peace – not threatened by the use of nuclear weapons as in October 1962 (when Pope John helped to negotiate between John Kennedy and Nikita Kruschev) or by terrorism, like the knife slicing the throat of a martyr priest in Rouen, France, Father Jacques Hamel, 84, who died at 9:43 a.m. on July 26, three days ago. (A nun, who identified herself as Sister Danielle, said she was in the church at the time. “They forced (Father Hamel) to his knees. They did a sort of sermon around the altar, in Arabic. It’s a horror.” She said she managed to flee as they were preparing to kill Father Jacques.)

In May [2016], I had in mind to narrate how Capovilla on my second visit [early in 2007]had spoken at length to me of the secret of Fatima: of how John XXIII, while at Castel Gandolfo in August of 1959, had asked to see the text of the secret, and read it; how an envelope had been brought to him from Rome; how a Portuguese monsignor was also summoned from Rome to help with the reading; and how John had then turned to Capovilla and had instructed him to put the secret back into its envelope and to write on the outside that the Pope had read the secret on that day in August, and had decided not to reveal the contents to the world, but to leave that decision to one of his successors, who might decide whether to reveal the secret at their own discretion, at some future time. And I had in mind to write how Capovilla, when I had asked him whether he had written those words on the envelope in pencil (which could have been erased) or in pen, had told me, “In pen” (so, not eraseable). And I had in mind to write how, when I had asked Capovilla why none of the envelopes containing the Third Secret of Fatima which had been shown on Italian television by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone had contained the words that he had written that day, Capovilla had told me, a bit enigmatically, “Perhaps there was a second envelope.” But I stopped there. For Capovilla on that day had not clarified for me the matter of the Third Secret of Fatima. He had left it open, mysterious. And he had clearly intended to leave it so. He had intentionally led me to believe that there was something not clear about the publication of the secret or secrets – that there might even have been two different letters, with two different envelopes, with two distinct texts. But, at the same time, he had left me in the dark about what that something might be. He had clearly had some hesitation about speaking definitively on the subject of the letter, as if he had been asked not to do so by some higher authority. As I had understood him, he was hinting to me that there did exist some other version of the Third Secret, a version different from the one that was revealed and published [in 2000], but he would not say so clearly and categorically. And so, as the days passed, I did not write what I had intended to write. It all seemed too uncertain. [my emphasis added]

It was during this recent summer of 2016 that Dr. Moynihan had the chance to speak with some well-informed sources in Rome about the whole matter of Fatima. These conversations seem to have encouraged him now to report further on this issue. Moynihan writes:

Still, in Rome during June and July [of 2016], I did have conversations which touched on the Third Secret of Fatima. Those conversations persuaded me that there is an ambiguity and a lack of transparency about the way the texts have been presented to the world. I do not know what the ambiguity or lack of transparency is, but it seems, from what Capovilla told me, and from what I heard in Rome, that something is imperfect, or incomplete, in the way the secret has been published. [my emphasis added]

This witness – though mostly bearing the open character of a confirmation, rather than the mark of new disclosure – has its own importance. For, Dr. Moynihan, as a conservative Catholic reporter and Vatican specialist has not been thus so far at the forefront of this Fatima debate, inasmuch as it would thereby imply, as it seems, some form of criticism of the recent popes. Thus, his recent reporting and words on the matter show how the fuller truth about the apparently missing part can now be less and less easily denied or ignored. This general and uneasy sense of incompleteness I can also confirm, in view of my own conversations with some prominent contacts in Rome who indicated to me – during and after the May 2016 controversy about Fatima – that there is, indeed, more than what has been published so far.

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42 Responses to Robert Moynihan Keeps Fatima Questions Alive

  1. Crow says:

    That is impenetrable, and verging on incoherent. Either someone said something or they didn’t. If they did, then it should be stated in the first person. If they didn’t, then it should be left alone. The traditional Catholic movements do not do themselves a service by manufacturing half-baked theories. Traditional Catholicism should be disciplined, focussed and charitable. Authors such as this one and the other strident one are divisive and only serve to create stereotypes. The world is harsh enough without Catholics attacking other Catholics.

  2. JabbaPapa says:

    Nonsense conspiracy theories about Fatima AGAIN.

    These articles are NOT Catholicism “pure & simple”, they are supportive of factionalism and sectarianism, and are therefore damaging to the Faith.

  3. JabbaPapa says:

    Capovilla had told me, a bit enigmatically, “Perhaps there was a second envelope.” But I stopped there. For Capovilla on that day had not clarified for me the matter of the Third Secret of Fatima. He had left it open, mysterious. And he had clearly intended to leave it so. He had intentionally led me to believe that there was something not clear about the publication of the secret or secrets – that there might even have been two different letters, with two different envelopes, with two distinct texts. But, at the same time, he had left me in the dark about what that something might be. He had clearly had some hesitation about speaking definitively on the subject of the letter, as if he had been asked not to do so by some higher authority. As I had understood him, he was hinting to me that there did exist some other version of the Third Secret, a version different from the one that was revealed and published [in 2000], but he would not say so clearly and categorically. And so, as the days passed, I did not write what I had intended to write. It all seemed too uncertain.

    versus Pope Pius VI, Auctorem fidei !

    [The Ancient Doctors] knew the capacity of innovators in the art of deception. In order not to shock the ears of Catholics, they sought to hide the subtleties of their tortuous maneuvers by the use of seemingly innocuous words such as would allow them to insinuate error into souls in the most gentle manner. Once the truth had been compromised, they could, by means of slight changes or additions in phraseology, distort the confession of the faith which is necessary for our salvation, and lead the faithful by subtle errors to their eternal damnation. This manner of dissimulating and lying is vicious, regardless of the circumstances under which it is used. For very good reasons it can never be tolerated in a synod of which the principal glory consists above all in teaching the truth with clarity and excluding all danger of error.

    It is as if the innovators pretended that they always intended to present the alternative passages, especially to those of simple faith who eventually come to know only some part of the conclusions of such discussions which are published in the common language for everyone’s use. Or again, as if the same faithful had the ability on examining such documents to judge such matters for themselves without getting confused and avoiding all risk of error. It is a most reprehensible technique for the insinuation of doctrinal errors and one condemned long ago by our predecessor Saint Celestine who found it used in the writings of Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and which he exposed in order to condemn it with the greatest possible severity.

    In order to expose such snares, something which becomes necessary with a certain frequency in every century, no other method is required than the following: Whenever it becomes necessary to expose statements which disguise some suspected Error or danger under the veil of ambiguity, one must denounce the perverse meaning under which the Error opposed to Catholic Truth is camouflaged.

    and St. Irenaeus, Against the Heretics Book II, chapter 26 :

    But if any one should ask us whether every number of all the things which have been made, and which are made, is known to God, and whether every one of these [numbers] has, according to His providence, received that special amount which it contains; and on our agreeing that such is the case, and acknowledging that not one of the things which have been, or are, or shall be made, escapes the knowledge of God, but that through His providence every one of them has obtained its nature, and rank, and number, and special quantity, and that nothing whatever either has been or is produced in vain or accidentally, but with exceeding suitability [to the purpose intended], and in the exercise of transcendent knowledge, and that it was an admirable and truly divine intellect which could both distinguish and bring forth the proper causes of such a system: if, [I say,] any one, on obtaining our adherence and consent to this, should proceed to reckon up the sand and pebbles of the earth, yea also the waves of the sea and the stars of heaven, and should endeavour to think out the causes of the number which he imagines himself to have discovered, would not his labour be in vain, and would not such a man be justly declared mad, and destitute of reason, by all possessed of common sense? And the more he occupied himself beyond others in questions of this kind, and the more he imagines himself to find out beyond others, styling them unskilful, ignorant, and animal beings, because they do not enter into his so useless labour, the more is he [in reality] insane, foolish, struck as it were with a thunderbolt, since indeed he does in no one point own himself inferior to God; but, by the knowledge which he imagines himself to have discovered, he changes God Himself, and exalts his own opinion above the greatness of the Creator.

  4. Roger says:

    [The Moderator – Roger, it has already been pointed out to you that the account that you are relying on is false.]

  5. Roger says:

    Moderator

    What is wrong with pointing out that the cuckoo takes over the whole nest?

    [The Moderator – There is no such thing as a noble lie, Roger.]

  6. mmvc says:

    Yes, Jabba (@ 06:28), many of the articles we post here reflect the flawed, fallen and sinful human element of the Church militant. No, we have not shied away from posts which lament the ambiguities and falsehoods that have rocked the barque of Peter and shaken many of its faithful voyagers in recent times. That the smoke of Satan would enter the Church has been foretold. That scandals, lies, confusions and sufferings are a result of this diabolic infestation isn’t news either. But we also know that the serpent’s head will be crushed by the Woman clothed with the Sun. As was confirmed in Fatima, the Immaculate Heart of Mary will triumph. In the meantime there is a solution for those who can’t face the frequent battle reports or who fear they might end up bitter and twisted: skip them and focus on the many devotional and inspirational items we offer. It’s all part of Catholicism Pure and Simple.

  7. Roger says:

    mmcv
    I 100% agree.
    The message of Fatima actually is a belief in the Faith handed to the Apostles and especially a reminder of the Last things.
    Our Lady knows all about poor sinners and asks Us not to Judge but instead to make reparation for these and our own sins through the Rosary. A sacramental Life placing God and Our Neighbour first.
    1917 thousands were being slaughtered daily in a most frightful European War with countries which were nominally Christian.
    It is Gods Will that the Church is to Triumph through Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart.
    Heavens weapon of Piety? The Rosary.
    Understand that it takes a Lifetime to learn to pray the Rosary.
    But be under no delusions the Rosary brings with it the Cross.

  8. mmvc says:

    Apologies, Roger, but I found the following comment of yours amongst my emails though not on the blog. It must somehow have disappeared in the ether… Well here it is:

    Roger says:

    Moderator

    A Lie? What was asked and what has been done and after nearly 100 years what today are the fruits?

    This is the well known Prophetic request (not a private Dognatic revelation) of Our Lady at Fatima.

    “God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The [First World] war is going to end; if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace. If not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.”

    Notice “the good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. ” It isn’t very pleasant reading is it? Are we seeing martyrs?

    What about “The World Devotion to My Immaculate Heart?” Little evidence of that is there?

    Is Russia Converted to Catholicism? Actually Catholicism is in decline.

    “.. The Russian Orthodox Church has played a powerful role in post-Soviet society’s efforts to reassess and reclaim the pre-revolutionary past – it has canonised Tsar Nicholas II, rebuilt ruined monuments, researched and commemorated Christians persecuted by the Soviet regime. The revival of its monasteries is one of the most astonishing aspects of this process. While Western convents are closing and selling their property, the reverse is happening in Russia: monasteries and convents are reclaiming – or recreating – the physical and spiritual fabric of their pasts. For over 70 years the Ekaterinburg Novo-Tikhvin convent existed only in local memories, and in the walls of various institutions among whom its buildings were redistributed. Once one of Russia’s most significant monastic institutions and home to over a thousand women, Novo-Tikhvin reopened in 1994 with just a handful of sisters and a 25-year-old mother superior. Since a state hospital continues to occupy much of the main convent complex, the first sisters slept in the convent church. Today, most of its 150 nuns and novices live in a former Soviet holiday home: conditions are cramped, but on average the convent accepts ten novices a year ..”

    John Paul II in 1984 IT’S TOO LATE

    Who then is to blame?

  9. Roger says:

    Thank you
    Look St Peter was sifted!! Our Lord warned Him.
    St Peter Loved Our Lord BUT he denied Him three times. Our Lord still made Him the First Pope.
    Fatima? There really isn’t a physical or material answer. There was nothing reference the Sun etc.. on that Day.
    But consider if this wasn’t the physical Sun then did Heaven raise the veil and there is more because the physical clouds parted and the ground and cloths dried.
    The illumination of Consciences world wide. Is this like Fatima the raising of the veil.

    We don’t know. But if and when tested in the Love Of Jesus and Mary, which it seems Rome has been then what can they expect claps on their backs!! At least a Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa!

    Who has fueled the speculation? the Silence of 40 years plus that’s the fuel for speculation!!
    Pity that a public bare footed flagellation wasn’t seen in the Vatican (this happened in Canterbury following the Martydom of St Beckett).

    The Feast of St Philomena the Holy ROMAN Martyr (Pray for Us).
    Its time that Catholics began to live their Love of Jesus and Mary instead of this openly hostile display of squabbling! I blame the Curia fair and square for their response to Fatima.

  10. JabbaPapa says:

    war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father

    All of these occurred during WW2

    If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace. If not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.

    These things all occurred during WW2 and throughout the Soviet era.

    In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.

    He did (John Paul II), and Russia abandoned Communism and began returning to Christian faith, the Warsaw Pact disintegrated, and after 1989 a period of peace did in fact occur.

    What about “The World Devotion to My Immaculate Heart?”

    That’s a distortion based on what amounts to a de facto misquote.

    “God wishes to establish, in the world, devotion to my Immaculate Heart” is clearer punctuation. That Devotion, to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, shall be given through prayer by Christians in the world.

    You seem to interpret this as some manner of apocalyptic millennialist absolute and total conversion of every single person to a cult of the Virgin. Such a thing exists surely in Heaven, and so personally it is what we should seek to give each after our manner, for to seek such devotion is to seek Heaven itself, but God has just as surely asked us in this world to be concerned with material as well as spiritual matters.

    Not Faith alone, but Charity too. Both Love and Mercy, both God’s Church and His Creation, as it is the work of the flock to seek and follow the shepherd, just as it is his to tend to and care for the sheep.

    {6:31} Therefore, do not choose to be anxious, saying: ‘What shall we eat, and what shall we drink, and with what shall we be clothed?’
    {6:32} For the Gentiles seek all these things. Yet your Father knows that you need all these things.
    {6:33} Therefore, seek first the kingdom of God and his justice, and all these things shall be added to you as well.
    {6:34} Therefore, do not be anxious about tomorrow; for the future day will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its evil.”

    (Gospel of Matthew)

    This is the well known Prophetic request (not a private Dognatic revelation)

    This is EXTREMELY confused.

    There is no such thing as a “private Dogmatic revelation”, the very concept is a complete logical and theological absurdity.

    You clearly fail to understand what a “private revelation” is, even after a theological explanation of what the phrase means by Cardinal Ratzinger has been posted here.

    You continue to exalt words spoken to particular seers for particular reasons concerning principally those seers themselves to a degree comparable with the Public Revelation from God, whereas Saint Mary, blessed and exalted and Loved as she is in the Eternal and Divine Light of Heaven, is NOT some kind of “fourth person of the Trinity”.

  11. kathleen says:

    “Catholics attacking other Catholics” (Crow)

    “Nonsense conspiracy theories about Fatima AGAIN” (Jabba)

    I have been away and I’m now catching up on the comments and links from the ‘Fatima posts’ published on CP&S.
    I cannot really see that the articles and comments are meant as an attack on fellow Catholics, (i.e. ad hominem attacks solely because these people say the Secret has, or has not, been revealed in its entirety), as much as a desire to seek the full truth of Our Lady’s words to the Fatima visionaries.
    The bashing of the strident Joanna Bogle on the other post might have been rather OTT, but she, in turn, uses unnecessary harsh words in her attack of the holy old Fatima priest, recently deceased, Fr Gruner, plus that against her ‘adversaries’!

    I do not hold myself up as a Fatima expert, but I think the argument of those traditionalists who claim the Vatican is keeping some of the evidence away from the Catholic public is very strong. Looking at the whole thing objectively, it is pretty evident that there are many loose ends and mysterious earlier indications that certainly point to there being much more behind the Third Secret than the public announcement of it in the year 2000.

    A “conspiracy theory” perhaps, yes, but on which side of the fence? Perhaps the conspiracy is on those obscuring the truth, and it is the traditional Catholics and firm believers in Fatima and its messages for the world who are trying to uncover it?
    Just saying!

    Whether there is or there is not (and one day I believe this mystery will be cleared up) it cannot be denied that there has been an infiltration of evil – Free Masons and the notorious ‘lavenda mafia’ – into powerful positions of the Church, the very heart of the Vatican. These, together with the unorthodox liberals within the Church (who may or may not be either Masons or closet homosexuals) would do anything in their power to avoid the full content of the Secret from being revealed, if it really does contain something about an apostasy “starting from the top” in our day.

    Why? Because at Fatima, in the same way as Her revelations at Quito, Akita, La Salette, Tre Fontaine, Garabandal, and many other sites of apparitions (nearly all who have already been recognised as “worthy of belief” by the Church), Our Lady points the accusatory finger at their treachery and in the way these ‘enemies-within’ have attempted to destroy the faith of the people, through lies, trivialising the sacredness of Holy Mass, failing to teach Catholic doctrine and devotions to the young whilst attempting to lead them to impurity through sex education programmes, embracing worldly values instead of godly virtues, and a very long etcetera.
    To reveal this as being part of the Third Secret of Fatima, as many believe it is, would be a sort of suicide for those ‘wolves’ who have infiltrated the Vatican. The ‘wolves’ who have already pronounced their “non serviam“!

  12. mmvc says:

    Kathleen (@12.27), this makes so much sense. Thank you. I’m no Fatima expert either but without wanting to get bogged down in heated arguments and debates I do feel very strongly that Our Lady’s message was and remains an important one not just for the saintly young visionaries of the time but for the whole world. It also seems clear to me (not least from the answer St John Paul II gave on the subject in 1980 in Fulda) that the Third Secret of Fatima has not been revealed in its entirety. Please God, it will be before long. In the meantime (as St JPII and other saintly souls repeatedly remind us), what matters most is that we heed Our Blessed Lady’s words and truly live Her message in these times of trial.

  13. JabbaPapa says:

    kathleen :

    In this regard, Pope emeritus Benedict XVI declares ‘never to have spoken with Professor Dollinger about Fatima,’ clearly affirming that the remarks attributed to Professor Dollinger on the matter ‘are pure inventions, absolutely untrue’, and he confirms decisively that ‘the publication of the Third Secret of Fatima is complete’,” the Vatican statement says.

    … but you’re saying that “the argument of those traditionalists who claim the Vatican is keeping some of the evidence away from the Catholic public is very strong”.

    No, it isn’t.

    Multiple completely independent researchers have been granted unrestricted access to the primary sources, viz. Lucia’s own written words, and they have all concluded that what we have been given is what there is.

    I cannot really see that the articles and comments are meant as an attack on fellow Catholics

    And yet you claim that “Our Lady points the accusatory finger at their treachery” and then proceed directly to attack some fellow Catholics.

    I. Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror

    II. You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pope Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.

    III. After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!’. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it’ a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father’. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.

    Our Lady has “pointed” an “accusatory finger” at exactly not one single person in the text of these private revelations — but instead, she referred to the “poor sinners” and she made a plea for assistance in the work of their salvation.

    The Devotion to Saint Mary’s Immaculate Heart is not to dwell in the Sin of accusations against so-and-so, because “Non loqueris contra proximum tuum falsum testimonium.

    To dwell in the desire of her Sacred Heart is to desire instead that those who are lost will be found, those who are broken can be healed, those who speak ill will return to speaking well.

    I am far more hesitant about the “messages” of Akita, given that the supernatural nature of the events there is nowhere near as clearly established as at Fatima and Lourdes.

    Bishop Sato, Ordinary of Niigata in 2002, clarified that “To be quite specific, the statue’s tears have not been officially declared supernatural, the messages to Sister Sasagawa have not been declared authentic, there have been no more recent messages, the diocese does not plan further investigation, and the so-called ‘revelations’ are not ‘Church approved’.

    But still, possibly helpful to those believing those messages, which is not forbidden in itself, is the opinion of Lucia of Fatima concerning the warning of Akita — According to Sister Lucia dos Santos, the Fatima visionary, a nuclear war that nearly took place in 1985 was prevented by the consecration of the world by Pope John Paul II — just 12 years after the Akita warning.. (bearing in mind that Lucia is known to have been visited by the Virgin throughout her life, and to have received multiple private revelations for her and her alone)

    Also, take not what Bishop Ito wrote :

    This message is based on the condition if men do not repent and better themselves …I think that it is a serious warning, although one feels here the maternal love of Our Heavenly Mother in the words: “The thought of the perdition of so many souls is the cause of My sadness.”

    1. After the investigation conducted up to the present day, I recognize the supernatural character of a series of mysterious events concerning the statue of the Holy Mother Mary which is found in the convent of the Institute of the Handmaids of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist at Yuzawadai, Soegawa, Akita.
    I do not find in these events any elements which are contrary to Catholic faith and morals.
    2. Consequently, I authorize, throughout the entire diocese, the veneration of the Holy Mother of Akita, while awaiting that the Holy See publishes definitive judgment on this matter.
    And I ask that it be remembered that even if the Holy See later publishes a favorable judgment with regard to the events of Akita, it is a question only of a private Divine revelation. Christians are bound to believe only content of public Divine revelation (closed after the death of the last Apostle) which contains all that is necessary for salvation.

    These messages are therefore not provided with the same purpose of broad publication as the secrets of Fatima. Bishop Sato has furthermore authoritatively clarified that the messages of Akita are NOT “the same” as the secrets of Fatima.

    And :

    CURRENT BISHOP’S STATEMENT (received by Spirit Daily May 28, 2002):
    POSITION OF THE DIOCESAN ORDINARY REGARDING
    VENERATION OF THE STATUE OF OUR LADY IN AKITA
    I believe that the mysterious events related to the statue of Our Lady at Yuzawadai, Soekawa, Akita are known to you.

    In 1984 the former ordinary of the Niigata Diocese, Bishop Ito, announced in a pastoral letter, “For the Diocese of Niigata, I do not forbid veneration to be shown to the statue of Our Lady in Akita.” From the time I succeeded him as ordinary of Niigata until now I have not made a single change in that announcement.

    Many opinions have been received about this, ranging from demands (“Why don’t you forbid devotions like this?”) to protests (“Why doesn’t the Church recognize the events as supernatural?”). What follows is also a response to those views.

    1. To those who ask for a new investigation of the mysterious events:

    For the following reason I will not carry out a new investigation.

    A special investigation commission, convened by Archbishop Shirayanagi of the Tokyo Archdiocese at the request of Bishop Ito, came to the conclusion in 1980 that, “The supernatural nature of the events can not be proven.” In response to this, Bishop Ito convened a new investigation commission, which carried out a second study. At the end of that study Bishop Ito announced in 1984 his permission for “veneration of Our Lady’s statue in Akita”.

    However, that permission was not granted because the newly convened commission had been able to prove the supernatural character of the events. In his pastoral letter Bishop Ito writes, “Based on the investigations made up to this point, it is not possible to make a denial, saying that there is no supernaturality in the mysterious phenomena related to the Eucharistic Handmaids’ statue of Our Lady in Yuzawadai, Soekawa, Akita City.” In other words, the second commission also was not able to prove the supernatural nature of the events. However, it is also not possible to deny and say that there is no supernaturality. On that account he gave his permission.

    Both the first and the second commission could not prove supernaturality, and therefore, unless new circumstances arise, I have no intention of conducting a new investigation.

    2. To those who ask why the devotion is not forbidden:

    I can not see any reason why it should be forbidden. On the contrary, I would like to stress that the devotion has been legitimately permitted by Church authorities.

    It is the practice of the Church to watch over without hindrance acts of veneration like this which begin naturally on the part of the laity, provided there are no doctrinal errors, mistaken mysticism or abuses. Bishop Ito stated as one of the reasons for his permission that “nothing has been found contrary to faith and morals,” the traditional approach of the Church. I did not change my predecessor’s permission in any way for the same reason: because nothing could be found contrary to faith and morals.

    It is not unusual for talk of the mysterious to be associated with pilgrimage sites. If a prohibition were called for due to such talk, almost all places of pilgrimage would have to be closed. What is important is not so much whether or not one believes in the mysterious events, but that it be a place where people visit and pray, receive graces and consolation, experience conversion and make good resolutions, offer thanksgiving and praise.

    3. Regarding the future of veneration to Our Lady’s statue of Akita:

    The permission granted by Bishop Ito is still valid. In the future also, Our Lady’s statue will be enshrined in a new chapel, and anyone will be free to visit and pray before it. I wish to continue to preserve the atmosphere of prayer surrounding the Eucharistic Handmaids’ statue of Our Lady in Akita.

    Although we speak of “veneration to Our Lady’s statue in Akita”, it is veneration to Mary, mother of our Savior Jesus Christ, and to no one else. If veneration of the Akita statue of Our Lady serves to deepen prayer to Mary, love for her son Jesus, and trust in God our Father, there could be no greater honor for the Diocese of Niigata.

    At the close of his pastoral letter Bishop Ito adds a warning: “Even if the Holy See should give a positive judgment about the events of Akita, they would be private revelations, and not something that brings an obligation to believe.” This is an important point. To believe or not to believe depends on the individual person. Disbelief is not a matter that can be criticized.

  14. JabbaPapa says:

    mmvc :

    the Third Secret of Fatima has not been revealed in its entirety

    Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI who is the person who was directly in charge of publishing the third secret has clearly and unambiguously denounced this claim as being completely false.

  15. Roger says:

    Amen!!

    I remind of what Our Lord said about the spirit of the Law and the letter of the Law. Personally the idea that La Salette and Lourdes and Fatima can be dismissed as Private is Absurb. Popes have reacted and acted upon the messages of these shrines (Church built, Masses said, Indulgences granted) that is enough proof!

    The Immaculate Conception is DOGMA! Therefor promoting the Immaculate Heart isn’t Private is it?
    But enough of this! That word ‘diplomacy’ it isn’t a fruit of the Holy Ghost is it?
    As for limiting to WWII.
    Pius XII response to Fatima was electrifying AFTER World War II. The Atom Bomb was clearly capable of destroying entire Nations? Perhaps that explains Pius XII promotion of Fatima and the Blue army!

    Conversion means to Catholic Faith Not Orthodox (schismatic) How else would a Catholic seer and Pope interpret this? That Russia is returning to Christianity is wonderful News to be welcomed BUT to have left that country under Atheism for what some 80 years and to have Heavens condition for its Conversion (to Catholicism) and to neglect to do this, does nobody any credit.

    What we do know is mysterious mentions of Oaths and being sworn to secrecy surround the a single sheet of paper and an Envelope (apparently signed in ink by Pope John XXIII personal Secretary). Rumours of a copy being sent to Super Powers. Access to Lucia was apparently nigh impossible even to Cardinals.

    I mean who could invent this? Its the fuel of speculation and mystery! Whose decision? The Curia?
    It won’t of course go away no matter what is said or not said will it? What is there to defend here? Were do you begin? Is there more is there less? I don’t know!

    In the meantime we are faced with the Loss of entire Nations to the Faith. France according to its President is a SECULAR country! We have a Holy priest slaughtered at the altar His blood mingling with that of Our Lords?

    St Peter did reparation for the rest of His Life for denying Our Lord. It wasn’t covered up was it? Aren’t Popes as poor sinners, human? that doesn’t deny the Papacy, which I would defend with my Life! Aren’t we all poor sinners and don’t we all need Confession? Don’t we all need the Sacraments? Isn’t the Rosary the subject of numerous Encyclicals and showered with Indulgences over decades?

    Fatima can’t be explained by Science yet the material Sun on that Day behaved normally (according to Science). The miracle was seen up to 40 kilometers from Fatima. I have no doubt but if God so wished it could have been seen Globally.

    Its called Faith because its beyond human reasoning. That’s why the Faith was revealed by God because its beyond Human Reasoning.

  16. JabbaPapa says:

    As for Garabandal, the supernatural character of the events there has been outright denied by the Church.

    The messages from La Salette are more convincing, but it is still VERY important to not misinterpret them. These messages, also, are approved by the Church, unlike those from Akita, and contrary to those of Garabandal.

    The Apparition at Tre Fontane and the message given there in 1947 are IMO entirely authentic

  17. mmvc says:

    Jabba, so how do you explain what Saint John Paul II said with reference to the Third Secret? We know that he saw and read the original documents in Portuguese as well as the Italian translation and that he was still young and compos mentis when at a public address in Germany he revealed something that clearly did not feature in the future ‘official’ publication:

    “… a message in which it is written that the oceans will flood whole areas of the earth, and that from one moment to the next millions of people will perish…” (JPII, Fulda, Germany, 1980)

    For comparison here’s the official translation of the published text:

    VATICAN CITY, JUN 26, 2000 (VIS)
    “I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

    “After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendor that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!’. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it’ a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father’. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.”

    And bearing in mind that the official explanation about the ‘symbolic’ nature of the visions included the suggestion that they referred to the past rather than the future, things don’t really stack up, do they?

  18. JabbaPapa says:

    As for limiting to WWII

    I didn’t — instead, I pointed out that the warnings of Fatima are easily interpretable as referring to events that occurred during the existence of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact.

    Multiple other interpretations are possible, and several have been given by several relates of the Roman Curia — which is typical of all such private revelations when those to whom they were not directly intended seek to try and understand them.

    It is THE main reason why extreme prudence is required when consulting them, as BTW Bishop Ito expressly warned of.

    Conversion means to Catholic Faith Not Orthodox

    How do you know that what the Virgin referred to wasn’t conversion from atheism to Christianity ? How do you know that the Schism will not end, therefore justifying both the Western and Eastern Churches as Catholic ?

    What we do know is mysterious mentions of Oaths and being sworn to secrecy surround the a single sheet of paper and an Envelope (apparently signed in ink by Pope John XXIII personal Secretary). Rumours of a copy being sent to Super Powers.

    More conspiracy theory nonsense.

    I mean who could invent this? Its the fuel of speculation and mystery!

    Conspiracy theorists would invent it.

    Fatima can’t be explained by Science yet the material Sun on that Day behaved normally (according to Science). The miracle was seen up to 40 kilometers from Fatima.

    Do please refrain from continually trying to convince those who accept the events at Fatima that they are genuine, as if rejecting your personal interpretations of them required rejecting the events themselves.

  19. JabbaPapa says:

    how do you explain what Saint John Paul II said with reference to the Third Secret? We know that he saw and read the original documents in Portuguese as well as the Italian translation and that he was still young and compos mentis when at a public address in Germany he revealed something that clearly did not feature in the future ‘official’ publication:

    “… a message in which it is written that the oceans will flood whole areas of the earth, and that from one moment to the next millions of people will perish…” (JPII, Fulda, Germany, 1980)

    It’s a deliberate misquote, used for a clear purpose of misleading people into errors.

    Pope John Paul II : “IF there is a message in which it is written that the oceans will flood whole areas of the earth, and that from one moment to the next millions of people will perish, truly the publication of such a message is no longer something to be so much desired ”

    A hypothetical about private revelations in general is NOT a direct quote of the Third Secret in particular.

    things don’t really stack up, do they?

    Things stack up very simply indeed when one stops listening to Fatimist conspiracy nuts.

  20. mmvc says:

    “It’s a deliberate misquote, used for a clear purpose of misleading people into errors.”
    And you know that how, exactly?

    Pope John Paul II spoke fluent German. My parents met him and heard him speak on several occasions including during his visit to Germany in 1980. He gave his addresses in German. The transcript of the contested part of his answer to the question about the Third Secret is as follows:

    “Wenn zu lesen steht, daß Ozeane ganze Erdteile überschwemmen, daß Menschen von einer Minute auf die andere abberufen werden, und das zu Millionen, dann sollte man sich wirklich nicht mehr nach der Veröffentlichung dieses Geheimnisses sehnen.”

    My literal translation: “When it is written (for reading) that oceans will flood entire parts of the earth, that people will be called away (from this life) from one minute to the next, and that in their millions, then one should really no longer yearn for the publication of this secret.”

    There were in fact two identical and complete transcripts of everything Pope John Paul II said at the time he was speaking to a group of Catholics in the Cathedral of Fulda during his visit in 1980. One was by a female journalist (published in a magazine, “Stimme des Glaubens”) and the other by a German priest. Both were present and both wrote down word for word what the Holy Father said.

    You wrote: “The Apparition at Tre Fontane and the message given there in 1947 are IMO entirely authentic”. Well, as you emphasised in an earlier thread, you are entitled to your opinion.
    Now given that I disagree with your judgement that St JPII’s words in Fulda were “deliberately misquoted” by those you rather uncharitably refer to as “Fatimist conspiracy nuts”, it is STILL MY OPINION that regarding the official revelation of the Third Secret of Fatima things don’t really stack up.

    I’m happy to respectfully disagree with you on this matter and move on.

  21. Roger says:

    So we have Cardinals versus Cardinals and Bishops versus Bishops know don’t We!
    Quite simply what do you expect when in 1960 the whole world waited baited breath for the opening of the Third Secret Of Fatima. 1960 came SILENCE! A wall of Silence!
    Snippets leaked here and there. Those known to have read the document sworn to secrecy.

    Pope Paul VI ” the smoke of Satan has entered the Church???”

    Perhaps Pope John Paul shouldn’t have spoken in 1980. How did Bishop John Ito know that Akita was essential the same as Fatima unless he had either personal knowledge or been told through the Holy See? Japan had first hand experience of fire from Heaven!

    The first and second world wars were dreadful, perhaps beyond our modern understanding and perception. In 1960 the world was very aware of the Bomb and the Iron Curtain. The division of Europe etc. between Russia and Nato. This was the world waiting for the publication of what was always known as the Third Secret Of Fatima.

    Please do not use the word Fatima conspiracy and NUTS when it was the Curia that fuelled the Third Secret of Fatima prior to 1960. Then produce a vision in 2000?

    To sit in 2016 and speak scornfully over the generation of the early 20th century as if they were unenlightened and even lacking in Faith is insulting.

    My personal opinion of the post 60’s Curia is clouded by the Masonic membership and PR. Its saints Like St Padre Pio that proved that miracles (which is a sign of the Church) still occured. That Confession and the Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass were indeed channels of Graces and balms of healing.

  22. JabbaPapa says:

    And you know that how, exactly?

    Because I have been formally trained not to overinterpret the written or spoken word, and not to add meanings not present in a text or statement as if they were actually there.

    It is a hypothetical statement about a hypothetical revelation and it constitutes no evidence whatsoever of being part of a “hidden” Fatima secret.

    I can see that “Wenn zu” is confusing, as it can mean either “When you” or “If you” — but if you’ll permit, a French :

    “Si tu es à lire que les oceans vont inonder des parties entières de la terre, que les gens d’une minute à l’autre vont être emportés, et ce par millions, alors tu ne veux vraiment pas le publier ce genre de secret.”

    … is certainly quite colloquial, but at least you’re not forced to abandon the infinitives which clearly indicate this as a hypothetical account.

    Text of the Published Report

    Question : The Holy Father was asked, “What about the Third Secret of Fatima? Should it not have already been published by 1960?”

    Answer : Pope John Paul II replied: “Given the seriousness of the contents, my predecessors in the Petrine office diplomatically preferred to postpone publication so as not to encourage the world power of Communism to make certain moves.

    That is his actual answer — it is plainly obvious to anyone who has read them that the Secrets of Fatima are closely related to the evils of the Soviet Union, and so the publication was postponed in order to try and avert certain unspecified reactions by the Soviets.

    Why is this simple explanation from a Pope not sufficient for everyone ?

    Illustration by hypothetical : “On the other hand, it should be sufficient for all Christians to know this: if there is a message in which it is written that the oceans will flood whole areas of the earth, and that from one moment to the next millions of people will perish, truly the publication of such a message is no longer something to be so much desired.”

    The Pope continued: “Many wish to know simply from curiosity and a taste for the sensational, but they forget that knowledge also implies responsibility. They only seek the satisfaction of their curiosity, and that is dangerous if at the same time they are not disposed to do something, and if they are convinced that it is impossible to do anything against evil.”

    This is a VERY clear use of a hypothetical simile in an attempt by the Pope to enlighten people to the dangers inherent in prophecy, accurate or otherwise is irrelevant, because an idle curiosity about the future and future evils is not to be desired.

    Very clearly this has exactly NOTHING to do with the Third Secret as such, given that the Pope has just finished explaining why it hasn’t been published yet (!!), except to characterise by tonal resemblance its contents as being of a dramatic and scary nature.

    Particularly (in hindsight) given the historic reality of a Third Reich plot to actually march in to Vatican City and murder the entire Curia with machine guns.

    Advice : At this point the Pope grasped a Rosary and said: “Here is the remedy against this evil. Pray, pray, and ask for nothing more. Leave everything else to the Mother of God.”

    And here he returns to the actual heart of the Message of Fatima.

    And then he is asked an entirely different question about something else.

    The Holy Father was then asked: “What is going to happen to the Church?”

    He answered: “We must prepare ourselves to suffer great trials before long, such as will demand of us a disposition to give up even life, and a total dedication to Christ and for Christ … With your and my prayer it is possible to mitigate this tribulation, but it is no longer possible to avert it, because only thus can the Church be effectively renewed. How many times has the renewal of the Church sprung from blood! This time, too, it will not be otherwise. We must be strong and prepared, and trust in Christ and His Mother, and be very, very assiduous in praying the Rosary.”

    So the Church was in crisis in 1980 just as it is in crisis today. It’s the same crisis.

    Pope Benedict XVI had similar, even starker words when asked a similar question.

    And there is no reason at all to think that this is some sort of “hidden Fatima allusion” either.

    ———

    I’m happy to respectfully disagree with you on this matter and move on

    I am not happy to see people being taken in by and then promoting this divisive, and potentially quite sectarian bunkum.

    Why are people happy to go on at length about the “smoke of Satan” in the Church, to accuse Popes and Prelates of dissimulation and direct lies, without stopping enough perhaps to wonder if those encouraging them to do so, and who are objectively spreading all manner of confusion around the message of Fatima, aren’t the ones smoking the Devil’s pipe and not the past half dozen Popes ?

    I don’t want to see anyone at all being bamboozled by Fatimist nonsense, because I cannot see that anything good can possibly come from attempts to portray the Magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church as having lied to the Faithful.

    ———–

    Instead :

    http://wdtprs.com/blog/2016/08/a-major-step-forward-in-relations-with-the-sspx-i-hope-so/#comment-538092

    Archbishop Pozzo of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Ecclesia Dei Commission) :

    Nostra Aetate does not have any dogmatic authority, and thus one cannot demand from anyone to recognize this declaration as being dogmatic. This declaration can only be understood in the light of tradition and of the continuous Magisterium. For example, there exists today, unfortunately, the view — contrary to the Catholic Faith — that there is a salvific path independent of Christ and His Church. … any interpretation of Nostra Aetate which goes into this [erroneous] direction is fully unfounded and has to be rejected.

    That has nothing to do with Fatima either — but cleave your thoughts to such sources of genuine Authority, not to malcontent bloggers desirous of tearing down the Orthodoxy of the Faith and replacing it with their unpleasantly extremist personal opinions.

    Yes the smoke of Satan is in the Church — but that’s not just the Vatican, the Church is all Catholics. Do not listen to those promoting schism or sectarianism, whether they may label themselves as “traditionalists” or “liberals”, because their fantasies and opinions are very far away from proper orthodoxy and obedient Faith.

    ——–

    The Holy Father was then asked: “What is going to happen to the Church?”

    He answered: “We must prepare ourselves to suffer great trials before long, such as will demand of us a disposition to give up even life, and a total dedication to Christ and for Christ … With your and my prayer it is possible to mitigate this tribulation, but it is no longer possible to avert it, because only thus can the Church be effectively renewed. How many times has the renewal of the Church sprung from blood! This time, too, it will not be otherwise. We must be strong and prepared, and trust in Christ and His Mother, and be very, very assiduous in praying the Rosary.”

    This is not a Prophecy of Fatima — this is a Prophecy of Pope Saint John Paul II, the man who fulfilled the Virgin’s request made to three small children of the countryside in Portugal.

    Keep things clear and distinct in your mind, and do not let those men with their political agendas confuse you.

    Cleave to the image of Holy Mary, or cleave to the image of love in your heart and there you will find God and His Mother both.

  23. JabbaPapa says:

    So we have Cardinals versus Cardinals and Bishops versus Bishops know don’t We!

    Can you please describe a time since the 2nd Century when we haven’t ?

    How did Bishop John Ito know that Akita was essential the same as Fatima unless he had either personal knowledge or been told through the Holy See?

    Don’t be silly, the first two parts of the Message were published in 1941. Whereas in the 1970s, these Fatima conspiracy theories were already well under way. Maybe he simply listened to them a bit too carelessly …

    when it was the Curia that fuelled the Third Secret of Fatima prior to 1960

    That’s funny, five minutes ago you were telling us not to trust the Curia. Do make up your mind !!

    To sit in 2016 and speak scornfully over the generation of the early 20th century as if they were unenlightened and even lacking in Faith is insulting

    I said nothing of the sort !!! You really do like to invent things out of your own head, don’t you …

    My personal opinion of the post 60’s Curia is clouded by the Masonic membership and PR

    Ah !! You’ve flip-flopped back again.

    So, couldn’t this confusion created by those members of the Curia speaking about the third secret prior to its publication in 2000 be a masonic plot **instead** of the actual third secret published under the supervision of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger ? Or is he one of those Masons too ?

  24. Brother Burrito says:

    Well said Jabba!

  25. mmvc says:

    With the greatest respect for your training, Jabba, I’m not convinced. I too could have dug up a French and also a Polish translation of JPII’s words, but what’s the point when we have the text in the language he spoke it? Logically the ‘if’ translation from the original German doesn’t work here especially as he then refers to “this” secret rather than using the indefinite article (“a” secret). Why speak hypothetically about something that is real?
    As for the French translation, it may be a tad colloquial but it is also quite inaccurate. The Holy Father never used the word “tu” (du), but in order to convey a sense of the ‘hypothetical’ the little ‘si tu’ combo fits the bill perfectly. A faithful translation might have read: “Quand il est écrit que…” or Lorsqu’on lit que…”. As for “ce GENRE de secret” (this TYPE of secret) for the original “DIESES Geheimnis(ses) (THIS secret), that’s verging on the purely imaginative!

    I don’t have the time to read your many copy and pastes for now, but, with or without your permission, I will probably remain a little sceptical (rather than confused or bamboozled – what a great word! ;-)) until the mystery of the Third Secret is revealed to all and sundry. What’s more, I’m in the same boat on this as many faithful Catholics ranging from Mother Angelica (RIP), Father Gruner (RIP), the people you once referred to as ‘those idiots at The Remnant’ to many, many friends including my dear friend Kathleen. But as I said before, in the end it is LIVING the messages of Fatima that matters most to me, not engaging in exhausting, fruitless polemics. After all, Pope John Paul II ended his address by warning the faithful not to be sensationalist or curious but to resort to the Rosary as a weapon against all evils.

    Oh and I do try very hard to cleave to the image of my beloved heavenly Mother. Her Immaculate Heart and the Sacred Heart of Jesus are everything to me! Where would we be without them?

    Thanks for the exchange, Jabba, and may God bless you and our heavenly Mother protect you always!

  26. Roger says:

    Our Lord replaced the scribes and pharisees with Fishermen. The first Pope was a Fisherman.
    This lesson has not been learned in this Age.
    La Salette, Lourdes, Fatima, Garbandal Heaven chose Children.
    Even the two Sanhedrin members were overlooked to be Apostles in the Church (Joseph and Nicodemus). The saFall of me will now prove to be the Case because the Judge here is not Human but Heavenly.
    John 10:
    27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me.

    This is found in the charism given to Peter as Pope. Its how the sheep know Peter because the Sheep hear Our Lord’s voice in Peter. Our Lord promised His Church that the Gates Of Hell would not prevail and the Reason is because of Grace and the Sacraments.

    Pius XII was the Fatima Pope. The Third Secret Of Fatima dates from His Pontificate.
    His Prophetic comments are worth noting.
    “..Msgr. Eugene Pacelli, the future Pope Pius ХII:
    “I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul. ‹…› I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past.
    A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, ‘Where have they taken Him?’”
    ..”

    Its enough Pope John Paul spoke. The sheep do not need a broken down line by line explaination thank you His words are easily and simply understand.

    The following gives a back ground to John Pauls 1980 speech (The 1981 attempt on His Life follows that speech and gives it credence! as He himself acknowledged!)
    “..
    The Third Secret is the most controversial and has given rise to a great deal of speculation. Although the first two Secrets were made public in 1942, information about the Third Secret was withheld. Lucia declared in 1941 that for the moment she was not permitted to reveal it. In June, 1943, she fell gravely ill. The Bishop of Leiria was so worried that he asked her to write down the text of it and place it in a sealed envelope. She agreed, but found herself unable to write the Secret down.
    For a whole month she struggled against a mysterious and terrible anguish. It seemed as if Satan himself was determined to prevent her. Then Our Lady appeared once again and gave her the light and strength to continue. She sat down at once and wrote out the Secret for the Bishop, as requested.
    The Bishop had permission to open the sealed envelope, but his nerve failed him and he tried to convey it to the Vatican. Rome declined to accept it. Lucia then made him promise that the Third Secret would be opened for the world to read in 1960. She believed ‘its message would become clearer at that time.’
    In 1957 the sealed envelope finally arrived in Rome. It seems likely that Pope Pius XII decided to wait until 1960 before opening it, but he died in 1958, and the envelope remained sealed until August, 1959, when it was finally opened by Pope John XXIII. But in spite of the enthusiastic expectation of the whole Catholic world, the contents of the Third Secret were consigned to the archives and a communiqué was issued to the effect that it would not be published.
    Pope John Paul II , likewise, took no action until the attempted assassination on 13th May, 1981, after which he called for all the information available. But although he consecrated the whole world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary on 13th May, 1982, he withheld publication of the Third Secret until June, 2000.
    ..”

    Finally what a difference 3 years make(1997 – 2000). Father Malachi Martin died on 27 Jul 1999
    Sad he wasn’t there to confirm the 2000 vision! By his admission he vow of silence prevented Him from disclosing the Third Secret. By the Way He always spoke of the Third Secret never mentioned Vision

    “..In October 1997 both Cardinal Ratzinger and Archbishop Capovilla publicly denied suggestions in the Italian press by Fr. René Laurentin and journalist Victor Messori that the Fátima Secret reflected badly on the course the Church has taken since the Second Vatican Council. In this view Pope John XXIII had not released it because it contradicted his optimistic outlook.

    Providing an insight to its actual contents, Archbishop Capovilla responded that it concerned “an extraordinary event,” a “manifestation of the supernatural.” For his part, Cardinal Ratzinger stated in an interview with a Portuguese radio station, “For those who are curious, I can offer assurance: the Virgin is not engaged in sensationalism, nor in feeding fears, or offering apocalyptic visions.” The key to her message is its emphasis on prayer and penance. “She guides men toward her Son. That is what is essential.”
    ..”

    So in 1997 we have Capovilla ( “an extraordinary event,” a “manifestation of the supernatural.” ) and Cardinal Ratzinger (not an apocalyptic VISION)

  27. Roger says:

    Something to ponder on

    1 Corinthians 3
    19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness.

  28. The Raven says:

    Dear MMVC,

    I can’t claim much proficiency in German, but I think that Jabba is right: the formula “Wenn zu lesen steht” implies rather more conditionality than a simple English literal translation; I’d prefer ‘were it to be written’ to the translation that Jabba cites, but he has the essential meaning of the passage. (I think that the translation you favour would have been based on “Wenn ist lesen steht”, the “zu” rather gives the game away).

    My greatest problem with this article (and others in a similar vein) is that their underlying logic is that Pope Benedict lied to us. The allegation is made with the very sketchiest background – often based on testimony that amounts to “professor X, who may once have been in the same part of Rome as Joseph Ratzinger in May 1984, believes that…” and is directly contradicted by the testimony of the Saintly Sr Lucia herself.

    Don’t we have enough already? The gospels and Catholic letters tell us that if we do not repent and turn our hearts to the Lord we will be damned; they tell us to beware states, kingdoms and republics, because these are things of men (of Caesar), not of God; they tell us to love Our Lady and give us the greatest remedy of the world, the Ave Maria.

    What can Fatima or any of the other apparitions add to this wealth?

  29. JabbaPapa says:

    Logically the ‘if’ translation from the original German doesn’t work here especially as he then refers to “this” secret rather than using the indefinite article (“a” secret). Why speak hypothetically about something that is real?

    No, the demonstrative dieses/this/ce refers internally in the sentence to the hypothetical in question.

    My re-translation is imperfect, certainly, but I’m heartened by dear Raven’s support.

    As for “ce GENRE de secret” (this TYPE of secret)

    No, the colloquialism “ce genre de” shouldn’t be translated word for word — it’s actually more literal meaning is “this”. I *did* specifically warn that my French retranslation was a colloquial one, not a formal scholarly one.

    until the mystery of the Third Secret is revealed to all and sundry

    a) It was, in 2000 — only the Fatimists claim otherwise

    b) Having said that, Jacinta and Lucia both received some fully private revelations intended for them alone, which will never be made public — and Lucia continued to be visited by the Virgin throughout her life. So whilst the secrets intended by Mary for publication are now known, there are mysteries of Fatima that never will be. One should avoid confusing the existence of these mysteries with the third secret itself.

    Raven :

    My greatest problem with this article (and others in a similar vein) is that their underlying logic is that Pope Benedict lied to us. The allegation is made with the very sketchiest background – often based on testimony that amounts to “professor X, who may once have been in the same part of Rome as Joseph Ratzinger in May 1984, believes that…” and is directly contradicted by the testimony of the Saintly Sr Lucia herself.

    Quite. Though my own problems with it, and similar, are deeper and more systemic.

  30. JabbaPapa says:

    Something to ponder on

    1 Corinthians 3
    19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness.

    Proverbs {18:2} The foolish do not accept words of prudence, unless you say what is already turning in his heart.

  31. mmvc says:

    Dear Raven,

    I’m bowing out of the Fatima discussion, but just want to make a small linguistic point.
    As a native German speaker (I didn’t speak a word of English before the age of ten), I don’t recognise the formulation “Wenn ist lesen steht”. For me and for another native speaker with whom I have discussed the linguistic aspect, the translation I suggested is the natural one.

  32. The Raven says:

    Dear MMVC

    Thank you for the correction – my German was never particularly good and has gone badly rusty since I last studied it!

  33. JabbaPapa says:

    mmvc :

    But as I said before, in the end it is LIVING the messages of Fatima that matters most to me, not engaging in exhausting, fruitless polemics. After all, Pope John Paul II ended his address by warning the faithful not to be sensationalist or curious but to resort to the Rosary as a weapon against all evils.

    That’s quite rightly the heart of the matter.

  34. Tom Fisher says:

    Maybe not sensationalist, but one should always be curious.

  35. kathleen says:

    Phew, Jabba – such realms of verbosity (including an unnecessary French translation of Pope JP II’s German on his clear indication that there is more to the Third Secret), plus loads of ‘cut and pastes’ on published documents on Fatima (that most of us are already fully aware of). Amongst all this you aim some disdainful words at us whom you call “Fatimist conspiracy nuts”!! So what was that you said to me @ 14:00 yesterday about “attacking fellow Catholics”? If you reread my comment @ 12:27 a bit more carefully you will see I did no such thing, I only made generalisations. I stated the obvious about Joanna Bogle (who, by the way, I have met and chatted to on a couple of occasions) and that anyone can see is the truth from the article she wrote in the Catholic Herald.

    You should have realised I was only speaking metaphorically when I mentioned Our Lady “pointing her finger” at the treachery spread by the many “sins of men”. She told the children at Fatima that Our Lord was “very much offended” by these sins. No names were mentioned; yet let everyone who betrays the Church’s commandments feel alluded to, especially those who are in positions of authority, and whose actions and words have, and do bring such scandal to the faithful.

    The only thing desired by many loyal Catholics, who feel the evidence about the revealed Third Secret does not add up, is transparency of Our Lady’s messages. It is not in any way conspirational to state that there may well be clerics of a modernist bent who would be desirous of hiding anything referring to “an apostasy starting at the top” – words that were already disclosed as being part of the Third Secret. This, however, was not included in the official reading of it in the year 2000.

    As The Raven has pointed out, I (and likewise, mmvc) believe in the absolute honesty of Pope Emeritus, Benedict XVI, but this omission of Lucia’s commentary on Our Lady’s words was not included in the referred to envelope where the “Secret” was contained. (This possibility was mentioned in one of the previous links on the subject by Christopher Ferrara, I think… Sorry, no time to check that right now.)

    No one is denying that the sacred Magisterium of the Catholic Church is untouchable. But it is well known that there has been a clear infiltration of ‘enemies’ of the Faith into the Vatican. The greatest sorrow to the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts of Jesus and Mary must surely be the betrayal from those Bishops in the Church, representatives of the Holy Apostles, who water down (and even deny) the sinfulness of certain evil actions that are widespread and now accepted as ‘normal’ behaviour in the world. They have trivialised the sacred liturgy, whilst spreading erroneous, worldly, Protestant ideas abroad that are not part of the Sacred Deposit of Faith. This apostasy coming from “the top” IS HAPPENING TODAY.

    Our Lady, as our Loving Mother, has foretold us of all this at Fatima and in many other apparition sites, to prepare us to “put on the armour of Christ” in preparation for spiritual warfare. The greatest threats to Mankind are not about physical disasters where the body is at risk, but the far more dangerous spiritual threat, where the fate of Man’s immortal soul is under a powerful diabolical assault.

  36. Roger says:

    To continue because there is more to bring Us up to date.

    May 11, 2010, during the flight to Fatima, Pope Benedict XVI responded to a question about the “Third Secret” of Fatima, “..We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic message
    has been completely realized…” He expressed the hope the centenary of the Apparitions of 1917,
    may hasten the fulfillment of the “prophecy of the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, for the
    glory of the Blessed Trinity.”
    [This is a clear indication that the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary had not yet been made, as the “triumph of the Immaculate Heart,” the “conversion of Russia” and the “period of peace” had not yet occurred, despite the Vatican statement in 2000 which claimed
    that the Consecration had already been made by John Paul II on March 25, 1984.]
    Benedict XVI also spoke of the “need for the passion of the Church which naturally is reflected in the person of the Pope,” and, therefore, he announced sufferings for the Church, specifying that such suffering would have originated not from EXTERNAL ENEMIES , BUT FROM WITHIN THE SAME CHURCH Benedict XVI, thats a U Turn on the Official Fatima party line.

    What do we know?

    One 1960 thats within second half of 20th Century. The 60’s launched the Promiscious generation with Divorce, the Pill etc.. etc.. The Old Order changed overnight and the Anti Christian Policy’s and Laws are unleashed to become Global Normalities. The smoke of Satan has entered the Church Paul VI (can only be the Church Militant of course) Can Satan really infiltrate to the Top of the Church (the Masonic lists confirms this Truth- Masonry is of Satan).
    As mentioned in the release in 2000 A time of Great Trial came upon the Church over 20th century. Cardinals opposing Cardinals and Bishops opposing Bishops (Satan brings conflicts off course – divide and conquer) The Vatican II changes with stripping away of Triple Crown, sedes etc.. Authorised Communion in the Hand, Vernacular languages. etc..
    De Labor Solis (Eclipse of the Sun) matches John Paul II as everybody knows. Sadly the sexual trials and exposures revealing a Darkened Church. ]
    Wars? Well we have to look a the Mid East don’t we sadly involving Israel and its neighbours and these have continued into the Gulf War(s) involving USA and International forces. It all started in second half of 20th century.
    Terrorism is now deranging the world. The most demonic acts of murder and mayhem, including Mass murders in schools, public places. Satan seems to be running amok doesn’t He?
    The Great Danger is an escalation that brings the Super Powers or rogue countries to use Nuclear weapons. Then the Akita vision could well become a reality.
    No sign of the Triumph Of Immaculate and it seems the Blood (John Paul II) spoke of 1980.

  37. The Raven says:

    Dear Roger,

    Please forgive me if you feel that I’m being unkind, but where does this rabid stream of consciousness come from? You’ve thrown out dozens of ideas here, none of which seem particularly connected and at least one of which looked as though it was veering into an anti-Semitic direction before lapsing into incoherence.

    In your more comprehensible first paragraph, you talk about a “u-turn”, but I can discern nothing in the words of Pope Benedict that contradicts his original statements about the third secret.

    Something in the pattern of the line breaks suggests that some of your post is pasted in from another source: where has it come from?

  38. JabbaPapa says:

    kathleen :

    “an apostasy starting at the top” – words that were already disclosed as being part of the Third Secret. This, however, was not included in the official reading of it in the year 2000

    No — you’re confusing an interpretation of someone who had read it (and BTW a perfectly valid one) for the literal content.

    disdainful words at us whom you call “Fatimist conspiracy nuts”

    No, that’s aimed at other people elsewhere, who actively create this stuff.

    So what was that you said to me @ 14:00 yesterday about “attacking fellow Catholics”?

    Members of the Curia are Catholics.

    It is not in any way conspirational to state that there may well be clerics of a modernist bent who would be desirous of hiding anything referring to “an apostasy starting at the top”

    Would these include Pope Saint John Paul II who authorised the publication and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger who undertook it ? Both of whom BTW have spoken out against that very rot ?

    but this omission of Lucia’s commentary on Our Lady’s words was not included in the referred to envelope where the “Secret” was contained

    Lucia had her own interpretations of the secrets — they’re generally quite good, but they’re still just interpretations. Words do not slavishly obey the interpretations that one may have of them.

    Interpretation and Overinterpretation by Umberto Eco is a good place to start learning a little more care in these matters.

    spreading erroneous, worldly, Protestant ideas abroad that are not part of the Sacred Deposit of Faith. This apostasy coming from “the top” IS HAPPENING TODAY.

    Quite true, but this does not require that St Mary must have spoken of this in some manner of “hidden third secret” that has been conspiratorially kept from us by multiple Popes who have lied to us.

  39. kathleen says:

    Dear Jabba,

    Can you not see that you too are “attacking other Catholics” with whom you disagree here (and as our mmvc has already pointed out with examples) inasmuch as we are all saying that there has been some contrary interests at play over this issue. Criticism of much of what is anti-Catholic within the Church should not in fact be seen as an attack when the truth is at stake. Remember how many great saints and defenders of the Faith have done the same. It is sin within the Church – and that includes the sin of kowtowing to the PC mindset of our times – that is far more perilous for the souls of men, than sin without.

    Yes, members of the Curia are “Catholics” too, of course, and I believe there are many good, holy, scholarly, hard-working members of the Curia who are keeping the infiltrated enemies-of-Christ among their ranks at bay from a takeover of the Holy Bride of Christ.
    Without mentioning any names of some of these “enemies”, would you – honest Catholic as I know you are – truly support some of the horrific un-Catholic things emanating from the Vatican recently? I think not. Just one example: how about that twisted sex-ed programme that we were denouncing the other day – a document aimed at destroying purity and the innocence of children? Who were the traitors who added their drop of poison into this document and then dished it up with a stamp of approval? They were certain unknown members of the Curia!!
    It is not wrong to point out such blatant evil; I believe it is a Christian duty, a moral imperative, for all Catholics to do so.

    Going back to the Third Secret discussion and Lucia of Fatima’s “interpretations” of it… as you yourself have said, Sister Lucia had visions of Our Lady throughout her life, so her words on said interpretation should be listened to and heeded. Many of them may have come directly from the Blessed Mother.

    I did not say that I thought “multiple Popes” had lied to us. Maybe not one of them ever has in this matter – I don’t know. But what I do think, after reading all the evidence disclosed by your so-called “Fatimist conspiracy nuts” (but who in reality are simply knowledgeable, truth-seeking, orthodox Catholics) is that someone, or more than one person in the hierarchy with access to these documents, has done so.

    Did you ever read this interesting article, “Alice Von Hildebrand Sheds New Light on Fatima“, from 1P5 last May? If not, please do so… it will enlighten you.
    Fifteen years after Sister Lucia had written a letter to Card. Caffarra stating that ‘The final battle between the Lord and the reign of Satan will be about marriage and the family’, we read:
    Cardinal Luigi Ciappi (1909-1996), personal theological adviser to five popes, made a stunning disclosure about that part of the Fatima secret that the Vatican has never released (and which is evidently referenced by the enigmatic word “etc.” in the published part of Our Lady’s message). His Eminence, one of the few persons who had seen the complete secret, wrote in a 1995 letter to Professor Baumgartner of Salzburg: “In the Third Secret it is predicted, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Church will begin at the top.””

    And Jabba, why on earth are you recommending to me a book written by the anti-Catholic relativist, Umberto Eco, who apostatised from the Faith? No thank you; reading bad books is bad for the soul.😉

  40. JabbaPapa says:

    Can you not see that you too are “attacking other Catholics” with whom you disagree here (and as our mmvc has already pointed out with examples)

    I think you’ve missed my point, but I don’t think clarifying it would be a good idea at this stage.

    Many of them may have come directly from the Blessed Mother

    Pure speculation — and remember too, the message of Fatima does not exist in a vacuum, but people can and some will interpret it on the basis of La Salette, or the visions of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, and etc … as well as on the basis of the state of the Church since the 1920s onwards.

    Such interpretations are perfectly legitimate ones, and there is no need to make “exciting” claims about a “hidden third secret” of Fatima to justify their existence — but it is to put the interpretative cart before the horse to start demanding that the contents of the message must be strictly equal in a literal sense to its various interpretations.

    I did not say that I thought “multiple Popes” had lied to us. Maybe not one of them ever has in this matter – I don’t know.

    I’m sorry kathleen, but there is no manner of supporting these claims without believing in a direct lie by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI who has stated categorically and unambiguously “that ‘the publication of the Third Secret of Fatima is complete“.

    the evidence

    Again — a group of unsubstantiated claims does not constitute “evidence”.

    Did you ever read this interesting article, “Alice Von Hildebrand Sheds New Light on Fatima“, from 1P5

    I have a depressing degree of familiarity with these imaginative Fatimist concoctions.

    and which is evidently referenced by the enigmatic word “etc.” in the published part of Our Lady’s message

    I reproduced the entirety of the text of the Message parts 1 to 3 on August 11, 2016 at 14:00 in this thread.

    The word “etc” is not found therein.

    Lucia clarified that the 1960 date was her own personal impression, NOT a requirement given to her by the Virgin.

    etc etc etc, and quite frankly I am tired of the sheer number of outright falsehoods and distortions that the Fatimists use to try and accuse the Curia of lying to the Faithful.

    And Jabba, why on earth are you recommending to me a book written by the anti-Catholic relativist, Umberto Eco, who apostatised from the Faith? No thank you; reading bad books is bad for the soul.

    kathleen, a few of his books should certainly be avoided, but his scientific works on semiotics and literary analysis are extremely valuable — as are some, but not all, of his novels.

  41. kathleen says:

    Jabba, I’m sorry I never got around to responding to your last comment here yesterday.

    Perhaps we should call it a day. I get the impression we are starting to go round in circles now, although I do insist that I do not think that Pope Benedict XVI “lied” to us. (Once again, there were two envelopes containing parts of the Third Secret; the one Pope John XXIII wrote on that was hidden away was not brought out at the official reading of the Secret in 2000. It’s possible Benedict knew nothing of its existence, or that he though its contents only contained Sister Lucia’s personal interpretations.)
    Whatever. One day all will be revealed to us.

    Yes, I’m well aware that the Fatima apparitions of Our Blessed Lady with her messages to the Church “does not exist in a vacuum, but people can and some will interpret it on the basis of La Salette, etcetera”, allowing for some of these to be mistakenly attributed to the wrong one. But the overall message is still one and the same: We are living in times of a great apostasy, and the surest way to fight the forces of evil that dominate the world today are through a faithful following of our baptismal promises.

    So, I do agree with you that in the meantime this is the most important mission we, the faithful, are asked to fulfil: to live “the Fatima message” in our daily lives.

    P.S. Oh, but no more of Umberto Eco, thanks.😉 I did once read (a long time ago) his “In the Name of the Rose”.

  42. JabbaPapa says:

    there were two envelopes containing parts of the Third Secret

    Pure speculation, that has been coloured over the years with several coats of fantasy and invention.

    kathleen, Eco’s academic work is VERY different to his novels

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