Is Russia Converting?

CP&S is publishing a recent article from The Remnant, and a first one to which it is linked. We understand some may find their content controversial, but the information therein is based on reality and accurate findings. They give rise to some important questions for our age.

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Written by Robert J. Siscoe for The Remnant

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The Material Preparation for the Consecration?

Editor’s Note: The recent RTV Short, Putin vs. Obama, touched off a lively debate here and on YouTube [see below] that seems to call for a bit more context. The following article by Robert Siscoe appeared in the print-edition of The Remnant back in 2013, and provides food for thought. As I said here the other day, we don’t claim to have all the answers but we are interested in this debate, especially if it can be conducted by those willing to think outside the box, set aside outdated Cold War polemics and look at what’s happening in the here and now. This is not 1980, the U.S. is not the ‘shining city on the hill,’ and when considering the breakup of the U.S.S.R.—especially when compared to other ruthlessly Christophobic regimes operating around the world right now—it doesn’t seem quite right to single out Russia as the “evil empire” anymore. So, what’s going on here? How does Fatima come into this? What about the consecration? Have the atheistic “errors of Russia” now become the “errors of the whole world”? Was Our Lady (who never once mentioned ‘Communism’) referring merely to a political/economic system or wasn’t there much more to it than that. MJM

Over the past few years some remarkable events of a religious nature have been taking place in Russia, of all places, with Vladimir Putin gaining worldwide respect for his leadership. The former KGB agent is emerging as a voice of moral sanity through his promotion of traditional morality and having the courage to condemn sins against nature. He has also been speaking out for the rights of persecuted Christian minorities in the Middle East, and taking concrete measures to establish closer relations between the Orthodox Church and the Russian State. Mere political stunts? Perhaps, but perhaps not.

In a recent article from LifeSiteNews, Hilary White discussed some of these recent events:

Putin praised the growth of cooperation between the Orthodox Churches and the Russian state, saying, “We act as genuine partners and colleagues to solve the most pressing domestic and international tasks, to implement joint initiatives for the benefit of our country and people.”

The Russian Federation recently passed legislation making it illegal to promote homosexuality as normal, a move that, while condemned by many European leaders, was strongly supported by the Orthodox Church.

Putin added Thursday that the Church was giving Russians a moral compass when so many were looking for help. “Today when people are once again searching for moral support, millions of our compatriots see it in religion,” he said. “They trust the wise, pastoral word of the Russian Orthodox Church.”

He added that it was the Church that was ultimately responsible for the development and rise of “culture and education” in Russia over the last 1,000 years. “The adoption of Christianity became a turning point in the fate of our fatherland, made it an inseparable part of the Christian civilization and helped it turn into one of the largest world powers,” Putin said.[1]

These positive developments have many Catholics wondering what is taking place in Russia. Has the long-awaited conversion, spoken of by Our Lady of Fatima, already begun? If so, what about the collegial Consecration that is supposed to precede it? And has Vladimir Putin really undergone a conversion to Christianity (albeit Orthodoxy), or are his public actions in support of Christianity merely a means of strengthening and unifying the Russian people in preparation for their coming battle against the West?

There are informed Catholics on either side of this issue and both make a compelling case for their position, but in my opinion Putin’s motives are irrelevant with respect to the larger picture, since what I believe we are witnessing is nothing less than the material preparation for the Consecration of Russia, which, I believe, is itself is due to the millions of Rosaries and other prayers that the faithful have been offering up for this intention for decades. God has willed that only the Pope and Bishops can bring about the true conversion of Russia, but I strongly suspect that God has been using the prayers of the faithful to prepare the matter, which will receive the form (the true Faith) when the long-awaited Consecration takes place.

Material Preparations

In an August 2012 article from the Washington Times, titled: “In Putin’s Russia, Little Separation between Church and State”, we read:

The Russian Orthodox Church is enjoying its newfound prestige with the Russian government. The head of the church, Patriarch Kirill, was granted residence in the Kremlin, the elaborate historic fortress in Moscow and seat of the Russian government, late last year… a move that restored the head of the church to a residence the church lost in the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution.[2]

The same article quotes an Orthodox Priest who had the following to say about separation of Church and State:

‘Our church does not consider itself an enemy of the state. The Western idea that the state and the church should be slight rivals and slight enemies is both bizarre and incorrect from an Orthodox point of view,’ Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin, a leading Orthodox church official, said in June. ‘We have — quite the opposite — teachings about harmony, cooperation and agreement between the state and the church.’[3]

In the same article, the then-President Dmitry Medvedev admitted: “Yes, the church occupies a fitting place in the life of our society and government.”

The restoration of a union between Church and State, which was lost at the 1917 Communist Revolution, is not only in agreement with the teaching of the Orthodox Church, but also reflects the teaching of the Catholic Church, as one can read in many Papal encyclicals, such as Immortale Die – “On the Christian Constitution of the State” – by Pope Leo XIII. Union of Church and State is an essential element for a truly Christian country, which alone can produce a truly Christian culture. Therefore, regardless of the motives that are inspiring it, and in spite of the fact that the form (true Faith) is still lacking, this development serves as an important material component for the future conversion of the nation.

In addition to promoting greater cooperation between church and State, Russia is also taking measures to suppress heretical sects, which is another positive development in the material preparations. The following is taken from a 2008 New York Times article:

The Kremlin’s surrogates in many areas have turned the Russian Orthodox Church into a de facto official religion, warding off other Christian denominations that seem to offer the most significant competition for worshipers. They have all but banned proselytizing by Protestants and discouraged Protestant worship through a variety of harassing measures, according to dozens of interviews with government officials and religious leaders across Russia.

This close alliance between the government and the Russian Orthodox Church has become a defining characteristic of Mr. Putin’s tenure, a mutually reinforcing choreography that is usually described here as working ‘in symphony.’ …

… 300 miles south of Moscow, the police evicted a Seventh-day Adventist congregation from its meeting hall, forcing it to hold services in a ramshackle home next to a construction site. Evangelical Baptists were barred from renting a theater for a Christian music festival, and were not even allowed to hand out toys at an orphanage. A Lutheran minister said he moved away for a few years because he feared for his life. He has returned, but keeps a low profile.

On local television last month, the city’s chief Russian Orthodox priest, who is a confidant of the region’s most powerful politicians, gave a sermon that was repeated every few hours. His theme: Protestant heretics. ‘We deplore those who are led astray — those Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, evangelicals, Pentecostals and many others who cut Christ’s robes like bandits, who are like the soldiers who crucified Christ, who ripped apart Christ’s holy coat,’ declared the priest, the Rev. Aleksei D. Zorin.[4]

The article goes on to quote a Protestant Minister, Mr. Pakhomony, who said: “They have made us into lepers to scare people away. There is this climate that you can feel with your every cell”.

The active suppression of heresy, which is the ideal in a truly Christian State, is another positive development since heresy corrupts the true Faith, causes division, and results in the loss of innumerable souls. While it is true that the Orthodox Church is itself in schism from the Catholic Church and does not profess the “fullness’ of the Faith, the suppression of heretical sects is certainly a positive development in the material preparation. What is lacking at present is the form, which will easily be remedied when the Consecration takes place.

Another positive development is seen in a recent amendment to the Russian Constitution. On June 26, 2013, Russia approved an amendment intending to protect children “from information that is harmful to their health and development”. The law expressly forbids “non-traditional sexual relations among minors expressed in distribution of information that is aimed at the formation among minors of non-traditional sexual attitudes, attractiveness of nontraditional sexual relations, misperceptions of the social equivalence of traditional and non-traditional sexual relations, or enforcing information about non-traditional sexual relations that evokes interest to such relations.”

In view of these measures the Sodomites are fleeing Russia in droves, thereby ridding the country of a sin that cries to Heaven for vengeance. As a result of this law, any Russians suffering from this disordered tendency will be forced to keep it in the closet where it belongs.

Conclusion

It seems evident that these positive developments constitute the material preparation for the coming Consecration, which will bring about the conversion of Russia and the promised Age of Peace.

At the wedding Feast of Cana, the Blessed Mother asked her Son to perform a miracle. Even though His time had not yet come (John 2:4) Our Lord granted the request, but the miracle did not take place until the “waiters” did their part. Their job was to prepare the matter for the miracle by filling the jugs with water, which would then be miraculously transformed into wine at the appointed time. In like manner, I believe the prayers of the faithful are serving to prepare the matter in Russia, which will soon be miraculously transformed when the Consecration takes place and the form is infused.

While only the Pope and Bishops can bring about the true conversion by performing the collegial Consecration of Russia as requested by God,[5] the seemingly miraculous conversion of the matter, which we are witnessing today, should give us hope that the long-awaited event is not far off. It should also serve as an encouragement to those who have helped to prepare the matter by their sacrifices and prayers. But whether or not the Consecration takes place before or after “the annihilation of nations” is in the hands of the Pope, since only he can bring about the true conversion by an act of obedience to the Will of God.


[1] Hilary White, World Leaders Should Unite To End Anti-Christian Persecution, Vladimir Putin Say,” LifeSiteNews August 1st, 2013.
[2] By Marc Bennetts, In Putin’s Russia, Little Separation Between Church And State, Washington Post, August 13, 2012
[3] Ibid.
[4]Clifford J. Levy, At The Expense Of All The Others, Putin Picks A Church’, New York Times, April 24, 2008
[5] “The moment has come in which God asks the Holy Father, in union with all the Bishops of the world, to make the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means” (Words of the Blessed Mother to Sr. Lucy in June of 1929).

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121 Responses to Is Russia Converting?

  1. “Putin added Thursday that the Church was giving Russians a moral compass….”

    Many people think Putin could use “a moral compass” himself.

    They accuse him of having journalists (like Anna Politkovskaya, and many others) and political rivals (like Alexander Litvinenko, and others) murdered.

    Many accuse Putin of being the head of one of the most corrupt governments the world has ever seen.

    If the Orthodox Church is giving Russians a moral compass, it is at the same time – according to observers – giving Putin a means of political control over the Russian people.

  2. This article should be filed under “Fiction”.

  3. Roger says:

    [The Moderator – Thank you Roger, but we’ve done the “Third Secret of Fatima” to death already]

  4. The Raven says:

    I’m afraid that this article is just wishful thinking. The Orthodox Church in Russia is just indulging in its usual caesaropapalism with Putin (understandable, as most of the hierarchy will have been vetted by the KGB, back in the day).

    As matters stand Putin is using the Orthodox Church as a means of state control and propaganda and is returning the favour by allowing the Orthodox to persecute the Catholic Church and our Eastern rite brethren in both Russia and Ukraine.

  5. johnhenrycn says:

    “Did you mean: caesaropapism… is what Google asked me when I clicked on The Raven’s “caesaropapalism”? I know that most people here know many more languages than me I do; and I absolutely trust The Raven more than Wikipedia. I did once use ultracrepadarian to good effect.

  6. kathleen says:

    Well, I may well be considered one of JH’s ultracrepadarians, and certainly admit to being no expert at all on this very disputed issue of Russia’s apparent re-conversion to Christianity. The truth of all news from behind the blown away ‘iron curtain’ is still so shrouded in mystery surrounding its President and his government, yet that there is more to the matter than just pure “fiction” most definitely appears to be the case. Putin’s public announcements do not give the impression of being either lies or mere propaganda.

    The ultimate problem lies is whether President Putin’s firmly announced defence of Christian values is truly truly sincere, and like all ‘lost sheep’ (as he clearly was in his early days) has been ‘found’ and converted in both word and deed, leading him to see Christ and His Gospel message as the one and only means of salvation for our fallen world… or whether he is partly using his publicised conversion as a tool with which to achieve greater power over the people, and state control – as The Raven affirms.

    Is there in fact proof that Putin is “persecuting” the Catholic Church in Russia at this moment? According to the ACN who works closely between the two Christian faiths to dispel the former resentments between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, there are no recent reports of mishandling of any importance. Yet, admittedly, the cruel injustices towards Catholics in the Ukraine tell another sad story.

    My two cents’ worth is that if I had to choose right now between the pro-abortion, pro-samesex’marraige, kow-towerer of the P.C., secular agenda of Barack Obama on one side, or the outspoken defender of Christian principals and rights of President Putin on the other – I would have no doubts which of the two I would choose!

  7. Tom Fisher says:

    My two cents’ worth is that if I had to choose right now between the pro-abortion, pro-samesex’marraige, kow-towerer of the P.C., secular agenda of Barack Obama on one side, or the outspoken defender of Christian principals and rights of President Putin on the other – I would have no doubts which of the two I would choose!

    Kathleen, there’s a heroic story of faith and survival to be told about the Russian people, no doubt about that. And this article can serve to remind us of that. But my two cents worth is that Putin is a wily old fox who knows how to use religion for his own thoroughly worldly ends. Don’t be fooled Kathleen. He’s about as devout as Richard Dawkins — but without the leavening effect of personal morality

  8. johnhenrycn says:

    The story goes that when East Germany dissolved, RatPutin went back to Russia with a washing machine in the boot of his car because he knew he’d never find one back home.

    Kathleen says: <…if I had to choose right now…kow-towerer of the P.C., secular agenda of Barack Obama on one side, or the outspoken defender of Christian principals and rights of President Putin on the other – I would have no doubts which of the two I would choose!

    Of course, neither are in the running, but my two cents worth [not cents’ btw] is that I would vote for the mulatto, not the gangster, even if the gangster says he’s a Christian, as does the mulatto.

  9. Toad says:

    Dictators are often shrewd enough to use the prevailing religion of their country to lead the docile sheeplike citizens by the nose.
    Tom, Robert John, and JH are right. Do as you are told, or go to hell is the watchword.
    Look at contemporary Muslim nations, let alone past European ones – where whatever is not religiously forbidden – is compulsory.
    The alternative is The Open Society, and the Putins of the planet don’t care for that.

  10. kathleen says:

    Yes, thanks Tom, JH, et al. I understand and I also recognise your gut feeling of distrust of Putin – his shady KGB past is common knowledge and cannot be overlooked – but you offer no explanations as to why you hold to your certainty that he cannot possibly have had a change of heart over time, and that he must only have devious aims behind his firm public declaration of belief in the tenets of the Russian Orthodox (and Christian) religion.

    The questions posed in the first of Michael Matt’s two articles (just a short one) linked to in the article above, evoked hundreds of comments in response [I haven’t had time to read them all] giving a wide spectrum of possible reasons for Putin’s now strong defence of Christian ideals as the reason for his harsh clampdown on all her ‘enemies’, both the moral ones, and those who bear the face of heretical creeds (e.g. Militant Islam). You are not alone in your scepticism of Putin’s declarations; other commenters also continue to be suspicious of his motives.

    This is what MM originally asked:

    “Lots of recent pro-Christian statements and actions of Vladimir Putin are giving good people pause. Is it all just politics? And even if it is, what does it mean? Why is he doing it? And what does it portend for the future of Europe?

    Why is Russia sounding more Christian all the time while America is becoming increasingly Christophobic? What if Putin actually means what he says? What impact will his Christian words have on his people, and what impact will the Obama/Clinton Christophobia have on ours?” (emphasis mine)

    None of us know for certain what is behind all this. That is a fact. And only God knows what really lies in Putin’s heart. (And Obama’s, for that matter.)

    But as our Western world continues on its roller-coaster towards Hell, growing daily more hedonistic, secular and Christophobic, with vile and evil laws being passed and accepted even by many brain-washed ‘Christians’, and our beloved Catholic Church being viciously attacked and undermined from within by treacherous infiltrators bent on her destruction*, who is to say that Putin is wrong, and Obama and Western governments who dutifully bow to those evils, are right? Whilst things go from bad to worse in America and the West (aided and abetted by the invasion of hordes of heretical Islamics into Europe), might it not well be what was once named “Holy Russia”, who is currently fighting these wicked laws and enemies, who will save us all from eventual annihilation?

    * continual reports of treachery and scandals within the Vatican are proof that the ‘wolves’ are gaining ground!

  11. Tom Fisher says:

    OK — there are two things to address here. First, Kathleen, I see where you are coming from, and will respond… but.. also.. TOAD! How are you?

  12. Tom Fisher says:

    Hi Kathleen,

    only God knows what really lies in Putin’s heart

    That is certainly true, and I don’t think it would serve the purposes of CP&S if we delved too deeply into an assessment of his career, let alone his character. It would become a distracting argument. We are each responsible for our own opinion of Vladimir Putin, and we all do the best with the information we have.

  13. Pingback: Is Russia Converting? — | Solutio Problematis Omnes (aka "The Catholic Linker")

  14. Toad says:

    .”…but you offer no explanations as to why you hold to your certainty that he cannot possibly have had a change of heart over time, “
    I doubt if Mr Fisher thinks it’s a “certainty.” Just very likely.

    (I’m getting better, Tom. But need a magnifying glass to write stuff. It;’s very slow.)

  15. Toad says:

    If it looks like a murderous thug, walks like one, acts like one, and talks like one – it probably is one.

    I see I’m back being “moderated” after one free shot.
    Oh well. I will offer it up for the souls in Purgatory.

  16. johnhenrycn says:

    I’m moderated every time I comment on mercatornet.com, but I don’t consider it an insult. The only trouble is, because Mercator is in Tom’s country, it usually takes 10+ hours before my brilliance astounds people down there. Consider yourself fortunate for an 2-3 hour time lag. So happy to read the good news about your medical progress, even though there are none so blind, etc. etc…

  17. kathleen says:

    Yes, yes, Toad – but Tom had already explained his position on Putin to me (@ 12:26) before you wrote yours @ 19:56. Are you sure your magnifying glass is strong enough?😉
    (No, that’s a silly joke! And I’m truly glad you’re on the mend.)

    And as to your assessment of 20:13 – “if it looks like a murderous thug, etc.” – well, that’s just another personal opinion too, isn’t it? Right now the “murderous thugs” might not be called “Putin”, but perhaps some other famous names I don’t need to spell out. Real life “thugs” who enjoy destroying babies in their mothers’ wombs for profit, or want to rid the world of the old and infirm, and to destroy marriage as God intended, between one man and one woman… and so forth. Real thuggy stuff made to look “normal” by legalised godless laws.

    Trouble is with this article above, and everything we hear about via the MSM, we never know if we’re getting the full picture. Just take a look at today’s startling post!

  18. Toad says:

    “And as to your assessment of 20:13 – “if it looks like a murderous thug, etc.” – well, that’s just another personal opinion too, isn’t it?”
    Of curse it is, Kathleen. That’s what forums like this are about. Opinions.
    Are you suggesting your opinions aren’t personal?
    …Just the opinions permitted to you by the Church?

    [The Moderator is under the impression that it is Mr. Toad who believes only his opinions count! But Mr. Moderator might be wrong]

  19. JabbaPapa says:

    I’m very glad you’re on the mend, toad !!

  20. JabbaPapa says:

    I’ve just read a different article by these Remnant , utterly ridiculous in its clichéd and frankly stupid allegations — and while the above is an example of the better sort of material they think fit to print for wide circulation, one is nonetheless dumbfounded by several gross errors of fact and logic.

    1) The conversion of Russia would certainly require an end to the Schism — but if the Schism came to an end, we would need to recognise the Eastern Church as Catholic. Therefore, the conversion of Russia must occur within the Russian Orthodoxy.

    2) “If so, what about the collegial Consecration that is supposed to precede it?” — Sister Lucia herself reported subsequent to one of the **many** conversations that she had with Saint Mary during her life that Pope John Paul II’s consecration of the world in communion with all of the Christian Bishops, West, East, “not in full communion”, even Anglican and etc, except for those who on their own heads refused, when he quietly prayed within that communion for the consecration of Russia to the Sacred Heart of Mary, was accepted as a fulfillment of the request.

    3) “strengthening and unifying the Russian people in preparation for their coming battle against the West?” — where the “errors” in question have quite clearly spread ? He really should at least **try** and keep coherent …

    4) “God has willed that only the Pope and Bishops can bring about the true conversion of Russia” — sorry, this is an obviously false statement that makes a mockery of the indefectible Dogma of Free Will, as well as of the similarly Authoritative Dogma that conversion is a Grace from God. Graces from the Holy Church of Christ can certainly assist in the sacred work of conversion, but I’m pretty sure if I searched diligently enough I would find that the proposal that conversion is provided by the actions of men must be condemned as anathema. It certainly has an Arian feel to it … No, God asked the Bishops of the Church, in full Collegial Communion, to pray to Him for the consecration of Russia to the Sacred Heart of Mary against the Errors that Russia was spreading in the world. It is extremely clear that any conversion therefrom can only be provided by God, via the Sacred Heart of Mary, not by these men in their mortal lives.

    5) “Union of Church and State is an essential element for a truly Christian country” — erm, no, sorry I’ve read most of the Encyclicals in question in their original Latin texts, and they require no such thing, although they certainly do present such a state of affairs as being desirable.

    6) “I believe the prayers of the faithful are serving to prepare the matter in Russia, which will soon be miraculously transformed when the Consecration takes place and the form is infused.” — this OTOH is just straightforward Millennialist Apocalyptic claptrap straight out of numerous American Evangelist sects.

  21. Brother Burrito says:

    Jabba,

    My thoughts on the word “Remnant”: When a gangrenous, dead extremity parts company from its host, doctors do not usually describe the surviving patient as the “remnant”.😉

    I lay my cards on the table. The Remnant, Rorate, Wunderbore etc: they’re for the nutters. Include me out.

  22. Roger says:

    [The Moderator – Please see my earlier comments, Roger.]

  23. johnhenrycn says:

    Brrrrrr at 20:03: In Re Remnant, Rorate, Wunderbore etc: they’re for the nutters.

    I cannot help loving Mundabor – always will – but he reminds me of a regular contributor on this blog who I mentioned on Saturday on another blog:

    “I’ve just watched the Q&A session of Michael’s [Voris] live presentation today, and I must say how impressed I was with his sincerity and knowledge. I was especially appreciative of his concluding remarks about the reasons why we must remain obedient, respectful and supportive of Pope Francis – or any pope for that matter (think Alexander VI) – because I and some friends on other Catholic websites sometimes skirt too close to the edge of ridicule and rebellion. One of those friends comments here regularly and he knows who I mean.”

    However, as I also mentioned on that other blog on Saturday:

    Obedience to the Pope:
    “I was an officer, a soldier. I served my country. I was not a man to forsake the man to whom I had given my oath of loyalty every time he was not to my way of thinking. It never, ever occurred to me to leave…”

    Googling will tell you which person said those words.

  24. Roger says:

    Obedience to the Pope:
    “I was an officer, a soldier. I served my country. I was not a man to forsake the man to whom I had given my oath of loyalty every time he was not to my way of thinking. It never, ever occurred to me to leave…”

    Our :Lord of course is King Of Kings and Lord Of Lords.
    We see Him crowned (thorns) and on His Throne the Cross.

    Its important to see the difference between a President or Democratically elected Leader and a King. The crowning of a Pope as with a King is charism on the soul for ever.
    Anybody interested will look at King Saul and King David.

    The Pope of course isn’t a Constitutional Monarch. He isn’t for instance a Bishop amongst Bishops. Peter has to answer to Our Lord’s question.
    Lovest Thou Me More Than The Rest? Feed My Lambs.
    A question asked three times (Trinity).

    The sacred oils and rites with oaths etc.. are a tradition dating from 858 until 1963. The last Pope to be crowned was Paul VI. But them came of course Modernism and also the strange preoccupation with Other Religions. This is of course to deny that Christ is the Only Saviour.
    The Pope is Christs Vicar.

    Holy Poverty and Obedience to God require Peter to submit to the Sacred Traditions of Church as did all the other Peters. “.. I was not a man (Pope) to forsake the man (Christ) to whom I had given my oath of loyalty every time he (Christ) was not to my way of thinking ..” This as John points out is the endemic problem that needs to be addressed if the Faith is to survive.

  25. Tom Fisher says:

    I was an officer, a soldier… etc..

    Very droll JH🙂

  26. Roger says:

    Moderator
    I recommend to you Our Lady of Validmir

  27. kathleen says:

    Phew, such a busy day yesterday, and so surprised to have found nothing had been posted here to commemorate the great Defender of Marriage, the martyred St John the Baptist, at this time when marriage and the family is under such relentless attack. So quickly found Pope Benedict’s lovely homily from 2012 (oh, how I miss him!) with a thoughtful added commentary from those wonderful monks at Silverstream Priory and published it, though many of our friends on this side of the pond will already have gone to bed by then!
    (BTW, this is not meant as a criticism of my dear team-mates who are just as busy as I am.)

    However, BB’s insults to fellow Catholic bloggers I do criticise! Especially when we have re-blogged, or linked to, many well-written, informative, and purely Catholic articles from Rorate on our blog, and occasionally from The Remnant too.
    The Remnant’s outspoken manner may not be to your liking (nor Jabba’s), and anyone can voice their disagreement with the opinions of other Catholics on matters not strictly part of the Deposit of Faith. But to call them “nutters” because you don’t like what they say is mean, rude and untrue. The authors of both these traditional Catholic blogs are scholarly people of great integrity, who love their Catholic Faith with real passion. Yes, they are up in arms – of course they are, and so should all loyal Catholics be – when we witness almost daily how our Holy Catholic Church is being openly attacked, trivialised and betrayed by some of her very own clergy, even some who sit at the very top of the hierarchy!

    Look at all those dozens of prominent Catholics who spoke out and signed that petition begging Pope Francis to clear up the confusion he caused with his encyclical, Amoris Laetitia – are they also “nutters” in your opinion? Or “dry old sticks” as you called traditional Catholics the other day? When all they were calling for was clear, unambiguous reaffirmation of Catholic teaching.

    To love “tradition” in all its dimensions, including the incomparable Mass of the Ages, is to recognise and want to preserve at all cost (and then to hand down to our children and grandchildren) the treasures of the Faith our own ancestors gave everything for, often even their lives. All so that we too could come to the knowledge of the Truth. That “Truth” is what Our Blessed Lord shed His Precious Blood for.

    Development of Doctrine (that Blessed Card. John Henry Newman wrote about with great erudition) never fails to fall back on the unchangeability of Catholic dogma.

    —–

    Roger,
    I read your comment at 21:37 last night, and it was (IMHO) absolutely harmless and did not deserve to be deleted. What a shame!

  28. kathleen says:

    Jabba @ 18:55 yesterday

    Although we sometimes disagree, I always appreciate your views on the subjects we publish. (You may see The Remnant’s “allegations” as “stupid”, but they always back up their statements with valid documents and recorded conversations.) The views you offer here on this topic did not surprise me. I’ll respond to some of your points:

    1. Yes, I can see what you’re saying here, and I agree.

    2. We (“we” referring to the two opposing opinions held by millions of Catholics on each side of this issue) have gone over and over this disputed fulfillment of the Consecration of Russia to the IMMACULATE Heart of Mary, and really I think it would be futile to continue this argument here.

    3. Generalisations of any sort will always lead to some incoherence. “Errors”, even serious ones, remain in many parts of Russia’s public dealings, despite the public declaration defending and promulgating Christian principals of their leaders.

    4. Jabba, I’m not sure, but I get the impression that you are reading too much into that first italicised quote, or that you fail to quote the whole statement, which would infer the exact same thing as you are implying. At a guess, I would say that on the subject of the Conversion of Russis to the IMMACULATE Heart of Mary, it could only finally come about once it was made as requested by Our Lady at Fatima through the power and grace of God Alone. I’m pretty sure they would agree with you that the Pope and Bishops are no more than the mere instruments required in their role as representatives of the first Apostles.

    5. Yes, most certainly “desirable”, indeed!

    6. Now here you really surprise me! Is not prayer (together with sacrifice and fasting), and, of course, a sincere desire to obey and follow Christ in all our daily thoughts, words and deeds, not the channel from whence comes all grace? Perhaps you were simply misinterpreting the author’s rather exaggerated choice of words.

  29. JabbaPapa says:

    6) is the easy one, kathleen

    I’m clearly not referring to prayer as “straightforward Millennialist Apocalyptic claptrap straight out of numerous American Evangelist sects”, but rather : “will soon be miraculously transformed when the Consecration takes place and the form is infused“.

    What comes next ? The restoration of the Temple, the Conversion of the Jews, and then the Rapture ?

  30. kathleen says:

    Jabba @ 21:43 on 31st August

    I missed this earlier!
    No, you clearly misunderstood what I was trying to say to you!

    Your imaginative and derogatory “Millennialist Apocalyptic claptrap” etc. description of what the author was saying has no connection at all to his words. He was stating that he believed that it was through “the prayers of the faithful” (and naturally all Our Lady’s other requests – e.g., avoiding “offending God”, making sacrifices, devotion to the Most Blessed Sacrament, the First Saturdays, etc.) IOW, their obedience to God through His Blessed Mother, that would bring about the “miraculous transformation” through the Consecration that would follow.

    Only if one doubts the power of prayer, which Our Blessed Lord said could “move mountains”, could this be seen as “claptrap”!

    That’s what surprised me, coming from you.

  31. Roger says:

    Kathleen thank you

    Neither Our Lord nor Our Lady needs a Popes approval to succour their poor suffering children of Russia!

    Pentecost is especially important in these Last Days.

    We have Pope St Peter’s telling Us of how God’s help will be found in the Last Times. That is through dreams! visions and Prophecy’s.

    Pope St Peter is speaking here with Papal Infallibility.

    The Conversion of Russia?
    “..
    Fr. Paul Kramer says that Our Lady of Fatima cured President Putin of Russia. Putin visits Rome to visit with Pope Francis and asks for the Consecration of Russia, and Pope Francis says, “We will not discuss Fatima!”
    ..”

    Acts 2
    [1] And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place: [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
    [3] And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them:
    [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.
    [5] Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem, Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
    [6] And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue.
    [7] And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans?
    [8] And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born?
    [9] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
    [10] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome,
    [11] Jews also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.
    [12] And they were all astonished, and wondered, saying one to another: What meaneth this?
    [13] But others mocking, said: These men are full of new wine.
    [14] But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke to them: Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you, and with your ears receive my words.
    [15] For these are not drunk, as you suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day:
    [16] But this is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel:
    [17] And it shall come to pass, in the last days, (saith the Lord,) I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
    [18] And upon my servants indeed, and upon my handmaids will I pour out in those days of my spirit, and they shall prophesy.
    [19] And I will shew wonders in the heaven above, and signs on the earth beneath: blood and fire, and vapour of smoke.
    [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and manifest day of the Lord come

  32. So a known murdered is allowed to receive communion in the Orthodox Church??????? WOW, now that’s sad and scary.

  33. Roger says:

    Elle September 5, 2016 at 08:29
    St Paul (Saul) murdered St Stephen.

    Kathleen
    This Rome wants to BURY Fatima.
    Fatima is another way of saying the Woman which refers to both the virgin and the Church. Woman (Fatima, Church). Fatima(Woman, Church), Church (Woman, Fatima).

    The Passion (Fatima, Woman, Church) leads to the mystical Entombment (Burying) of the Mystical Body of Christ.

    Rome has acknowledged the Great Apostacy which is global (Anti Christian) which itself is proof that the Consecration of Russia wasn’t done as Heaven Ordered!

    Remember we have the Popes St Peter’s words (That Pentecost when He was filled with the Holy Ghost!) of dreams, visions, prophecy’s for the Last times (Prophet Joel) that these would be God’s works.

    St Peter’s words binds His successors since He spoke infallible in The Acts. The Pope has spoken and He St Peter is the judge of His Successors.

  34. JabbaPapa says:

    Nothing prevents a murderer who has made just penance, prayer, spiritual reparation, and Sacramental Confession from taking the Eucharist. Everything prevents the unrepentant one from doing so.

    Saint Moses the Ethiopian was the leader of a gang of robbers and a murderer, before converting and becoming a Monk.

  35. JabbaPapa says:

    which itself is proof that the Consecration of Russia wasn’t done as Heaven Ordered

    No it isn’t — aaaaaand here we go again for another round of dodgy Fatimist claims.

  36. kathleen says:

    Jabba,

    Did you see my belated reply to you on 2nd September about your misunderstanding of my earlier response to you?😉

    Yes, I quite agree with your reply @ 10:04, and Roger’s @ 09:55, to Elleblue Jones that there is no sin, not even the grave sin of murder, that cannot be forgiven by Our All-Merciful Saviour through true repentance. That Putin might well have been either a complicit, or directly responsible, of cases of murder in the past cannot be denied.

    Roger,

    I quite agree with you that there is a definite plan to attempt to silence all talk of Fatima by some in the Vatican. (We do not know for sure who these enemies of the Faith are, but their reasons for wanting this are all too apparent.)
    There is little we, the laity, can do about it except to live the messages of Fatima all the more fervently in our daily lives. If Heaven wanted Fatima to be the sign of our times nearly 100 years ago to lead us back to God, we, the faithful, must be her heralds.

  37. JabbaPapa says:

    kathleen, whether I misunderstood your post or you misunderstood my response, or my silence even, is a moot point — when I wish to express a disagreement, I do so, in good faith.

    I do not think I misunderstood your post, and whilst I would urge you to be EXTREMELY cautious in the face of men who claim to interpret Prophecy, all the while presenting false notions about its nature, my deeper advice would be to refrain from creating false notions in your mind about the Nature of Divine Interventions as if these were somehow subjected to rules of logic.

    I realise that your first Insight into the Beatific Vision is in your future, and I pray to your Guardian Angel to do ALL that he can to prepare you for that Meeting with God.

    The Fatimists focus on the World — a Christian focuses always on Love for God.

    Love is the Essence of our native mortal Insight into the Beatific Vision, though the love we feel in this world is but the shadow of the Infinite in His Love for us all.

  38. Roger says:

    Absolutely the Life of Grace and focusing on Heaven.

    The Little Way of St Therese was Heavens exemplar for 20 century. Its the humble Life of pots and pan’s a selfless Life lived for Jesus and Mary. Always working and seeking to serve Our Lord where He has placed Us. St Therese was drawn to the Missions and Missionary Life although she was of course a cloistered Carmelite.

    Souls!! Souls!! and their salvation! their Conversion. Turning the humdrum hidden life amid the pots and pans into a Reparation for souls.

    Fatima is about Souls! Billions of Souls and their Salvation.

    The woman clothed in the Sun? That’s both Our Mother and the Church. The Sun is the Light of Christ. The children of Fatima? (children of Mary, children of the Church) faced with that anti clerically masonic Portugal Republic of 1917.

    Conversion of Russia? Its the salvation of those poor souls suffering under that Atheist Russia. A Consecration that required EVERY Shepherd in Union with Peter (like the Apostolic College created by Our Lord 2000 years ago).
    That Apostolic College at Pentecost with Our Lady in their midst.
    Conversion of Russia that’s Not to accentuate or perpetuate the Orthodox or Protestant Schisms but to bring all into the Church under Peter.

    If you Love Our Lord then look at the Billions of lives (Abortion, Birth Control) murdered under these dreadful global Laws. At the Masonic nonsense that leaves Souls under the yoke of Original Sin and outside of the Life Of Grace. The shallow worldly empty shell of a Faith that has the trappings but not the Life of Grace, Charity and Faith that today passes for the Faith.

    Was the Consecration of Russia done? Well is there Unity of Faith amongst the Cardinals and Bishops!

    Where is the Apostolic College standing in Unity and Union of Faith with Peter with Mary to perform that Consecration? Heaven isn’t a Fool and clearly knows and knew the State of Rome in 1960.

    Those poor Souls in Russia and now globally that are excluded from Union with the Church (that’s the reality of this indifference to Fatima) . Those poor souls suffering under the hardened embittered Atheists and their worldly fantasy’s such as the Soviet Union and now of course China, as well as the materialist so called Capitolism that is naked Greed and Avarice.

    To call Fatima worldly is to fail to see that the Woman clothed with the Sun is actually the Church clothed in Christ. To see in Our Lady and the Holy Family (Church in Grace) that is the Church as she was with Peter and that Apostolic College at Pentecost filled with the Holy Ghost.

    Because in the Acts and that Pentecost we Can see the Triumph Of The Immaculate!

  39. JabbaPapa says:

    The woman clothed in the Sun? That’s both Our Mother and the Church. The Sun is the Light of Christ.

    That Sun is the Light of God in Heaven, and she is His intercessor for us, in Motherhood and Grace and Love.

    It will be hard for you to understand until you see for yourself. This Divine Love is far beyond any that you can imagine.

    Her Vestment in the Sun is the Salvation in God, and it is His Love given to us in her womb.

    To call Fatima worldly is to

    … fail to understand what I wrote. I described the conspiracy theories of **the Fatimists** as being worldly, and they are quite far indeed from genuine Spiritual Faith.

    The Fatimists and their notions are not the same as the revelation of Fatima.

    Those poor Souls in Russia and now globally that are excluded from Union with the Church

    Have you really so little Faith in the Lord our High Priest that you think that those Souls could be excluded from His Church in the Afterlife just because of some conspiracy theorists’ interpretative hair-splittery ?

    Where is the Apostolic College standing in Unity and Union of Faith with Peter with Mary to perform that Consecration?

    Lucia, in her own words : “Sim, està feita, tal como Nossa Senhora a pediu, desde o dia 25 de Março de 1984

    To say that this is false is to call one of the three principal Seers of Fatima a liar.

  40. Roger says:

    The Light of this world is the Sun

    Christ is the Light of the World.

    Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid.
    John 8:12 Again therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying: I am the light of the world: he that
    followeth me, walketh not in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
    John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
    John 12:46 I am come a light into the world; that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in
    darkness.

    “.. To avoid this, I will come to ask the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays If my requests are heard, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors around the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church the good will be martyred;. the Holy Father will have much to suffer;.. various nations will be destroyed at the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph the Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me and she become-to and a period of peace will be granted to the world. ”
    ..”
    There have been at least seven consecrations to the Immaculate Heart by the Popes:

    1) October 31, 1942, Pope Pius XII made ​​a consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary throughout the world.
    2) July 7, 1952, Pope Pius XII consecrated the peoples of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary by his apostolic letter Sacrum Vergente Anno. Pius XII said:
    “As a few years ago We have consecrated the entire human race to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, also today We consecrate and in a special way we entrust all the peoples of Russia to this Immaculate Heart.”

    3) November 21, 1964, Pope Paul VI renewed, in the presence of the Vatican Council Fathers, but without their participation, the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart.
    4) May 13, 1982 Pope John Paul II invites the world’s bishops to join with him to consecrate the world and, with it, Russia to the Immaculate Heart. Many did not receive the invitation to the Pope’s journey time to Fatima, where he made ​​the consecration. Sister Lucy says later that conditions were not met.
    5) In October 1983 Pope John Paul II, at the Synod of Bishops renewed the consecration 1982.
    6) March 25, 1984 Pope John Paul II, “united with all the pastors of the Church in a special bond under which constitute a body and a college,” consecrates “the whole world, especially those in which, by virtue your situation, ye have love and special care. ”

    “.. the papal ceremonies consecrating the world in 1982 and 1984, from which any mention of Russia was deliberately omitted to avoid “offending” the Russian Orthodox (i). Contradicting this claim, John Paul II himself twice stated on March 25 after the 1984 consecration of the world that the Virgin was still “awaiting” Russia’s consecration, but that he had done all he could “according to our poor human possibilities and the measure of human weakness…”(ii)

    (i) “.. Cardinal Tomko, told Inside the Vatican magazine, Russia was not mentioned in the 1984 ceremony because “Rome fears the Russian Orthodox might regard it as an ‘offense’ if Rome were to make specific mention of Russia in such a prayer, as if Russia especially is in need of help when the whole world, including the post-Christian West, faces profound problems …”
    “..Inside the Vatican, November 2000. Tomko added: “Let us beware of becoming too literal-minded.”
    ..”

    (ii) L’Osservatore Romano, March 26-27, 1984 Italian edition, pp. 1, 6 “Illumina specialmente i popoli di cui Tu aspetti la nostra consacrazione e il nostro affi damento.” (“Enlighten especially the peoples whose consecration and entrusting you are awaiting from us.”);

    Avvenire is the official episcopal newspaper of the Italian Bishops Conference.

    Avvenire, March 27, 1984, p. 11: “We wished to choose this Sunday, the Third Sunday of Lent, 1984—still within the Holy Year of Redemption—for the act of entrusting and consecration of the world, of the great human family, of all peoples, especially those who have a very great need of this consecration and entrustment, of those peoples for whom you yourself are awaiting our act of consecration and entrusting.”

    “..
    Have you really so little Faith in the Lord our High Priest that you think that those Souls could be excluded from His Church in the Afterlife just because of some conspiracy theorists’ interpretative hair-splittery ?
    ..”

    Sister Lucia
    “..
    Both before and after the 1982 and 1984 ceremonies Sister Lucia insisted that Our Lady had requested nothing less than the explicit public consecration of Russia by the Pope and the bishops and that, accordingly, a consecration of the world would not comply with the Virgin’s request.
    ..”

    “..
    It is Cardinal Bertone’s contention that during private, unrecorded “interviews” Sister Lucia abruptly changed her testimony on this matter presents an entire controversy unto itself
    ..”

  41. Roger says:

    July 20, 1987 –
    Interviewed quickly outside her convent while voting, Sister Lucy confirms to journalist Enrico Romero that the Consecration of Russia has not been done

  42. JabbaPapa says:

    aaaaaaaaaaaaand so you’ve posted the entire Fatimist conspiracy theory AGAIN, as if we hadn’t already read it eleventy umpteen times already.

    /sigh/

  43. Roger says:

    NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY an inevitably conflict between the Curia and a very visible and publicised Prophecy/message. Also remember Pope Pius XII who very visible and publically tried to fulfil that request.

    The answer isn’t conspiracy Pope John XIII chose a policy of Ecumenism, not just for Russia but the Christian Churches.

    “The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council.” This first sentence of Unitatis Redintegratio, the Decree on Ecumenism (1964, #1)

    This is why Russia wasn’t expressly singled out because of a choice by Rome to follow this road of perceived Unity rather than to single out and offend the Russian Orthodox Church. Which is exactly what John Paul II is on recorded as saying.

    The Conversion of Russia envisaged in 1917 was to the Roman Catholic Faith.

  44. kathleen says:

    Jabba @ 16:13 yesterday

    Lots of cyber ink spilt between you and Roger since that I cannot get involved in now, so I’ll just stick to this comment of yours to me.

    “when I wish to express a disagreement, I do so, in good faith.”

    I know. I hope I have never given you the impression that I have ever doubted this – even if I may sometimes argue with you on certain issues, or when we appear to have been talking past each other. Discussions on-line are far more easily prone to misunderstandings arising than when one is face to face.

    “men who claim to interpret Prophecy, all the while presenting false notions about its nature”

    Jabba, I’m not sure who these “men” are supposed to be. Are you referring to other bloggers (either those here or on other sites), or are you referring to those of renown names in the Church (either dead or alive)?

    I have always tried to look towards the Holy Magisterium of the Church’s wise judgements and approval about sites of Apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary before claiming their authenticity. However, in the case of Garabandal (and please, let’s not get into this again right now) where there has been no official “approval” so far either for its supernatural origins or its messages, it has, since its initial condemnation by the bishop of Santander, been officially said to contain in its supposed messages from Our Lady “nothing that contradicts the Holy Catholic Faith”. That’s how things stand at the present time in Garabandal.

    If you are referring to Fatima (and to which the above article refers) then I really would ask you not use the term “Fatimists”, however popular it might be among those who dispute the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the completeness of the revelation of the Third Secret. Calling others “Fatamists” has some unpleasant and derogatory undertones.
    But don’t worry, I shall not go over those exhausting arguments anymore; it is enough what I said in the last paragraph of my comment @ 10:23 yesterday. We, the faithful in the Church, must live ‘the Fatima message’ in our daily lives; for the Fatima ‘message’ is, in a nutshell, everything that is contained in the Sacred Deposit of Faith.
    Our Lady came at a time when Modernist and atheistic errors were seeping into the Church and men were beginning to forget or even deny the important tenets of their Catholic Faith. Our Lady came to remind us of their absolute Truth and to warn us of the dangers to come if they were ignored. Yes, Fatima is all about saving souls!

    “I realise that your first Insight into the Beatific Vision is in your future, and I pray to your Guardian Angel to do ALL that he can to prepare you for that Meeting with God.”

    Thank you.x

  45. Roger says:

    Well I do not doubt Jabba sincerity or Faith and I thank the Moderator.
    Fatima came in a dreadful time 1916/17 and the Papacy imprisoned in the Vatican. The Portugese Republic had closed Churches imprisoned Priests and Religious etc.. The Fatima children were taught the Faith and especially the Last Things, they were even imprisoned by the secular Authorities. Two remember were child saints and their young lives evidenced heroic virtue.

    Fatima revealed something very precious, the promise of the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The Fathers of the Church spoke of the Triumphant of the Faith before the End of the world they also believed that the Church would recreate the Life of Christ (includes betrayal and Passion)

    Our Lady’s FIAT brought Salvation to fallen Man.
    To Jesus through Mary is the certain road for genuine Ecumenism but exclude Mary and you will never find Christ.

    Was Russia Consecrated? The answer is that Vatican II Ecumenism precluded expressly singling out Russia and thus offending the Russian Orthodox Church. So the answer is sadly it was never done as requested by Heaven.

    Its hard to see how the Consecration could have been diplomatically done post 1960 for Ecumenical Reasons. Obviously Heaven knew this.

  46. JabbaPapa says:

    Jabba, I’m not sure who these “men” are supposed to be

    2 Peter {2:1} But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be among you lying teachers, who will introduce divisions of perdition, and they will deny him who bought them, the Lord, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
    {2:2} And many persons will follow their indulgences; through such persons, the way of truth will be blasphemed.
    {2:3} And in avarice, they will negotiate about you with false words. Their judgment, in the near future, is not delayed, and their perdition does not sleep.

  47. JabbaPapa says:

    Roger continues to suggest, completely falsely, that disagreement with his personal views on Fatima, involving some hodge-podge of “traddy” theories concerning purported “conspiracies”, might somehow constitute rejecting the Message of Our Lady St Mary, Mother of God.

  48. JabbaPapa says:

    And :

    Jeremiah :

    {23:16} Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not choose to listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you and deceive you. They speak a vision from their own heart, and not from the mouth of the Lord.
    {23:17} To those who blaspheme me, they say: ‘The Lord has said: You shall have peace.’ And to everyone who walks in the depravity of his own heart, they have said: ‘No evil will overwhelm you.’ ”
    {23:18} For who has been present in the counsel of the Lord, and who has seen and heard his word? Who has considered his word and heard it?
    {23:19} Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord’s indignation will go forth, and a tempest will break out; it will overwhelm the head of the impious.
    {23:20} The fury of the Lord will not return until it succeeds, and until it completes the plan of his heart. In the last days, you will understand this counsel.
    {23:21} “I did not send these prophets, yet they hurry forward. I was not speaking to them, yet they were prophesying.
    {23:22} If they had stood in my counsel, and if I had made my words known to my people, certainly I would have turned them away from their evil ways and from their most wicked plans.
    {23:23} Do you not realize that I am a God close by, says the Lord, and not a God far away?
    {23:24} If a man is hidden in concealed places, do I not see him, says the Lord? Do I not fill up heaven and earth, says the Lord?
    {23:25} I have heard what the prophets have said, prophesying falsehoods in my name, and also saying: ‘I have dreamed! I have dreamed!’
    {23:26} How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who predict what is false, and who prophesy deceptions from their own heart?
    {23:27} They want to cause my people to forget my name, by means of their dreams, which each of them describes to his neighbor, just as their fathers forgot my name for the sake of Baal.
    {23:28} The prophet who has had a dream, let him describe the dream. And he who receives my word, let him speak my word in truth. For what has the chaff to do with the wheat, says the Lord?
    {23:29} Are not my words like a fire, says the Lord, and like a hammer crushing rock?
    {23:30} Therefore, behold: I am against the prophets, says the Lord, who steal my words, each one from his neighbor.
    {23:31} Behold, I am against the prophets, says the Lord, who take up their tongues and say: ‘The Lord says it.’
    {23:32} Behold, I am against the prophets, who dream what is false, says the Lord; who explain and so seduce my people with their falsehoods and with their miracles, though I did not send them, nor did I command them. They have offered nothing beneficial to this people, says the Lord.
    {23:33} Therefore, if this people, or a prophet, or a priest questions you, saying, ‘What is the burden of the Lord?’ you shall say to them, ‘You are the burden. And certainly I will cast you away, says the Lord.’”

  49. Roger says:

    THE TRUE STORY OF FATIMA written 1952 Father John de Marchi, I.M.C,

    “..In writing this book, the author enjoyed the incomparable privilege of living at Fatima from 1943 until 1950, and for this reason was able to question at undisturbed length the most important eyewitnesses to the-great events of 1917 ,,”

    FIRST THE TRUE MEANING OF FATIMA?
    “..
    The true meaning of Fatima is that God has spoken to us through Mary, the Blessed Mother of His Son. We should pause long enough to reflect that it is not strange for God to speak to us, since He loves us far more than the best of us loves Him. Through all human history He has given His counsel to the conduct of our lives, His light to our doubts, and finally, through Calvary, the blood of His only-begotten Son as a ransom for our sins. Angels and prophets and saints have spoken for Him, but the most glorious of His messengers has been Mary.

    At Fatima the world has received, through Mary, God’s own prescription for peace.
    ..”
    FATIMA WAS GOD’S OWN PRESCRIPTION FOR PEACE

    Fatima June 1917 HELL and the CONSECRATION OF RUSSIA
    “..
    You have seen hell, where the souls of sinners go. It is to save them that God wants to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If you do what I tell you, many souls will be saved, and there will be peace. This war will end, but if men do not refrain from offending God, another and more terrible war will begin.16 And when you see a night that is lit by a strange and unknown light, you will know it is the sign God gives you that He is about to punish the world with war and with hunger, and by the persecution of the Church and the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to the world to ask that Russia be consecrated to my Immaculate Heart, and I-shall ask that on the First Saturday of every month Communions of reparation be made in atonement for the sins-of the world.

    “If my wishes are fulfilled,” the Lady continued, “Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, then Russia will spread her errors throughout the world, bringing new wars and persecution of the Church; the good will be martyred and the Holy Father will have much to suffer; certain nations will be annihilated. But in the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and the world will enjoy a period of peace. In Portugal the faith will always be preserved. Remember, you must not tell this to anyone except Francisco.”
    ..”

    “..
    (1929), in the chapel of the Dorotheas, in Tuy, that our Lady came to request this consecration which was to be made by the Holy Father, in union with all the bishops of the world.
    ..”

    1929 That is Before WW II and if Pius XI had done this Consecration WW II could have been prevented.

    HAS THE CONSECRATION OF RUSSIA DONE?
    Answer IF TRUE “Russia will be converted and there will be peace”

    1/ Is Russia Roman Catholic?
    2/Has there been Peace since 1984?
    The answer to 1/ and 2/ is NO

    HERE ARE THE WARS FROM 1984.
    South Yemen Coup
    Chadian-Lybian War (Aouzou Strip)
    Romanian Revolution
    Panama Coup and US Invasion
    Liberia Civil War
    First Gulf War
    Rwanda Civil War (Hutus vs Tutsis)
    Indonesia Gvt vs Aceh Liberation movement
    Southern Lebanon War
    Senegal Civil War
    Nagorno-Karabakh War
    Northern Mali Conflict
    Serbian Govt. vs Croatian irregulars
    Sierra Leone Civil War
    Burundi Civil War
    Algeria Govt vs Islamic rebels, GIA, AIS, AQIM
    Indian Govt vs Maoist Guerillas
    Georgian Civil War
    Bosnian Govt vs Serbian and Croatian Insurgents
    Croatia vs Serbian Irregulars, Rep. Krajina
    Tajikistan Govt vs Opposition
    Hunde and allies vs Hutu, Banyarwanda
    Congo Brazzaville Civil War
    North Yemen vs Secessionists
    Russia vs Chechnyan Secessionists and the Caucasus Emirate
    First and Second Congo Wars
    Nepal Civil War
    Yugoslavia vs NATO Forces and UCK Guerilla
    Ituri Conflict
    Eritrea vs Ethiopia
    al-Qaida vs USA and allies
    Afghanistan war
    Civil War in Côte d Ivoire
    Iraq vs US led coalition
    Iraqi Insurgency
    Kivu Conflict
    Lou Nuer vs Murle (Jonglei conflict)
    Mexican Drug War
    Waziristan conflict
    Nigerian Govt vs Boko Haram
    Yemeni Civil War
    Syrian civil war
    South Sudan Civil War
    Libyan Civil War
    Sectarian Conflict in the Central African Republic
    Eastern Ukraine War

  50. JabbaPapa says:

    WHY do you keep on posting this stuff that we have all seen eleventy umpteen gazillion times ?

  51. Tom Fisher says:

    Has there been Peace since 1984

    Roger, your list is incomplete, (thus creating a fun after dinner game!).

    Dividing the conflicts you mention into proxy wars, civil wars / insurrections, great power invasions of small countries, and finally, wars between great powers — you’ll notice that one of those categories is empty. And that is the distinctive feature of world affairs since WWII. We live in a remarkably stable period.

  52. johnhenrycn says:

    JabbaPappa, you’re entirely right to complain about Roger/Robert and his never-ending screeds. There is only one other person here who can match the sheer volume of his verbiage. The other one is intelligent enough, and occasionally interesting enough to actually read. Occasionally.

  53. Roger says:

    Jabba your language at times is the same as that of the Masons in Portugal 1917.

    “..
    As if, however, the declarations of these poor little dupes who affirm they have seen a “Virgin” which, however, nobody else can see and hear, were not sufficient, it is affirmed, or rather invented, that the sun, at a certain hour on October 13, 1917, (on the eighth anniversary of the assassination of Francisco Ferrer) and in the height of the 20th century, was seen to dance a fandango in the clouds!
    ..”

    Mr Fisher

    The Pope tasked with the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary AND the 1st Saturday every month Communions. Was Pope Pius XI 6 February 1922 to 1939.

    (1929), in the chapel of the Dorotheas, in Tuy, that our Lady came to request this consecration which was to be made by the Holy Father, in union with all the bishops of the world. This was forwarded to Pope Pius XI “..He was the first sovereign of Vatican City from its creation as an independent state on 11 February 1929..”

    Lucy wrote: ‘If the world only knew the moment of grace which is conceded and would do
    penance….’

    Our Lady predicted the Second World War, which was to be preceded by a sign which Lucia recognised in the aurora borealis of the night of January 24, 1938. This phenomenon was witnessed in nearly all the nations of Europe, and was extensively referred to in the press.

    Pope Pius XI didn’t Consecrate Russia and the world to the Immaculate Heart

    “..if not, then Russia will spread her errors throughout the world, bringing new wars and persecution of the Church; the good will be martyred and the Holy Father will have much to suffer; certain nations will be annihilated. But in the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and the world will enjoy a period of peace. In Portugal the faith will always be preserved
    ..”

    You will remember that Pius XII tried twice to perform the Consecration. He was the Pope of Fatima and the Dogma of the Assumption. ( it seems that

    1960 However was the year for the 3rd secret of Fatima. But as you now know (John Paul II) Ecumenism precluded any express reference to Russia.

    Garabandal significance is of course 1960 and 1965 and its seems is part of the IF NOT of Fatima 3rd Apparition and the failure to Consecrate Russia.

    Fatima and the existence of two envelopes in 1960.
    During his appearance on the Italian TV talk show Porta a Porta (Door to Door) on May 31, 2007, regarding the Fatima 3rd Secret, Cardinal Bertone, secretary of State, shows 2 different envelopes (a larger and a smaller), on each envelope a phrase written in Portuguese by Sister Lucia was shown, and it reads (translation from Portuguese to English):

    “By the express order of Our Lady, this envelope can be opened in 1960 by the Patriarch of Lisbon or by the Bishop of Leiria

  54. JabbaPapa says:

    Jabba your language at times is the same as that of the Masons in Portugal 1917

    What rubbish !!!

    Garabandal

    … has been formally denounced.

    1960 However was the year for the 3rd secret of Fatima. But as you now know (John Paul II) Ecumenism precluded any express reference to Russia.

    AMAZING how the second Pope elected in 1979 is to “blame” for your excessive fantasies regarding 1960.

    can be opened in 1960

    You have no concept of moderation between fact and fantasy.

    You have NO IDEA what an Experience of the Beatific Vision is actually like.

  55. Roger says:

    John Henry “Don’t worry about it with God’s works there’s bound to be trouble.”

    Perhaps you will find the Rational Freemason’s of Portugal in accord your own taste and opinions.

    A Masonic Notice
    Citizens!

    As if the pernicious propaganda of reactionaries were not enough, we now see a miracle trotted out in order further to degrade the people into fanaticism and superstition. There has been staged… an indecorous comedy in Fatima at which thousands of people have assisted, a ridiculous spectacle in which the simple people have been ingeniously deceived by means of collective suggestion, into a belief in a supposed apparition of the Mother of Jesus of Nazareth to three children jockeyed into this shameful spectacle for the commercial purposes of clerical reaction!

    As if, however, the declarations of these poor little dupes who affirm they have seen a “Virgin” which, however, nobody else can see and hear, were not sufficient, it is affirmed, or rather invented, that the sun, at a certain hour on October 13, 1917, (on the eighth anniversary of the assassination of Francisco Ferrer) and in the height of the 20th century, was seen to dance a fandango in the clouds!

    This, citizens, is a miserable attempt to plunge the Portuguese people once more into the dense darkness of past times which have departed never to return. The Republic and those citizens who are charged with the noble and thankless task of guiding it in the glorious paths of civilisation and progress, cannot consent to the degradation of the people into fanaticism and credulity, for this would be an unpardonable failing in their primal duty not only toward their country but to humanity as a whole. It is therefore our duty to demand from the public authorities the most energetic and immediate precautions against the shameless plan by which reaction seeks to plunge the people once more into medievalism….

    What shall be our means of co-operation with those from whom we claim the action necessary for the end we envisage? An intensive and tenacious propaganda, which will raise the mentality of our citizens to the realms of truth, reason and science, convincing them that nothing can alter the laws of nature, and that the pretended miracles are nothing but miserable tricks to abuse the credulity which is the child of ignorance…

    Let professors in the schools and colleges educate their pupils in a rational manner, liberating them from religious preconceptions as from all others, and we shall have prepared a generation for the morrow, happier because more worthy of happiness.

    Let us, then, liberate ourselves and cleanse our minds, not only from foolish beliefs in such gross and laughable tricks as Fatima, but more especially from any credence in the supernatural and a pretended Deus Omnipotente, omniscient and omni-everything, instrument of the subtle imaginations of rogues who wish to capture popular credulity for their purposes. Long Live The Republic! Down With Reaction! Long Live Liberty!

    “..
    March 6 of the next year we heard a terrible explosion during the night. The Freemasons had placed four bombs in the chapel, and a fifth by the tree where our Lady appeared. The roof was blown off, but the bomb by the tree did not explode.
    ..”

  56. johnhenrycn says:

    Roger: I never said what you quote me as saying: “With God’s work…etc…” makes no sense to me. Perhaps you meant it in reply to your brother, Robert, a well known heretic?

  57. JabbaPapa says:

    Why on EARTH have you posted that ludicrous and utterly evil atheist gibberish, roger ?

    Or have you simply decided to start all-out trolling ?

  58. kathleen says:

    Dear Roger,

    Neither JH, nor Jabba, have EVER said they doubt the Apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima, or the great miracle of 13th October – in fact, quite the contrary – they both, in the same way as all traditional Catholics, and with the endorsement of the Holy Catholic Church, are absolute believers in them.
    It is other things that Jabba takes issue with, and you (and everyone else) are surely fully aware of what these “issues” are. But really, there is absolutely no point in arguing about them here any further.

    The happy news is that whilst the “errors of Russia” (i.e. the evil ideologies of Atheistic Communism) have indeed been “spread around the world”, with the West being in the full throes of ‘dancing with the devil’, i.e., welcoming these errors and their offshoots as fully acceptable, Russia, OTOH, appears to be turning back to its Christian roots. The Russian Orthodox Church is in schism from the One True Catholic Church and still a long way off from any hopes of a return to full union with Her, but the first steps in the right direction certainly appear to have been taken, Deo gratias.
    Our mission? We must remember and fulfill Our Lady’s request at Fatima, and her words from the Holy Gospel of St John: “Do whatever He tells you”.

    It would be the best birthday present we could give Our Blessed Mother on this day we celebrate the ‘Birth of the Blessed Virgin Mary’.🙂

  59. Roger says:

    Its Our heavenly Mothers Birthday

    I am glad that you can all see that this Masonic poison is evil.
    The language the double speak and the venom and intent revealed in those words!
    The serpent changes its skin (and these skins can look very different). But the Hatred and venom that lies behind the charming smiling friendly face.

    That was the Voice of the Republic of Portugal. Today that voice is global.
    State and Church separation (as did Lenin) it rapidly progressed to closing Churches, imprisoning religious and priests. The Equality of beliefs. State education and indoctrination a curriculum that taught atheism under alleged comparative Religions. This poison that slivered out of the Russia tragedy called Revolution.

    Today you will find this same insidious thoughts and words world wide including Rome (the smoke of Satan). That alone should put you on guard as to what comes out of Rome. What is reported and with what intent? Do not repeat the Sin of Adam and Eve!

    The Serpent and the Woman the Serpents Hosts the Woman’s Hosts. Guess what where the serpent is most active? Where the Woman is found.

    John Paul II told you about the Church Born again in Blood that concurs with the failure to Consecrate Russia back in 1929. He told you that because of the Ecumenical Council that He could not mention RUSSIA (offend the Russian Orthodox Church). He told you and you call it my fantasy!

    It is Satan that wants you to forget Fatima. He attacks Fatima with Fury because the Woman crushes His Head.

    Don’t fall asleep in the Garden as did the Apostles!!

  60. Roger says:

    Kathleen

    God’s works are like Him Eternal. Fatima’s Origins are in mind of God before Creation The serpent and the Woman. Fatima will never be understood by Man not even in Eternity. The more you meditate the more you see and learn. Spiritual material has to be sipped in small doses not gulped down!

    FATIMA IS MOST RELEVANT TODAY AS THE BATTLE REACHES ITS CLIMAX.
    Because the errors of that Russia of 1917 HAVE ALREADY SPREAD AROUND THE WORLD!

    God bless His children in Russia. But NOTE the smoke of Satan has entered the Church so why are you looking at Russia? The Cancer has entered the Church and spread around the Globe.

    HEAVEN HELP THE WORLD BECAUSE SATAN IS AMONGST YOU AND HAS ENTERED THE CHURCH!! . SATAN’S INTENT IS TO DESTROY THE CHURCH OF PETER!! TO DRIVE THE WOMAN AND HER SON OUT OF THE CHURCH!

  61. kathleen says:

    Roger (@ 10:08 & 10:53 yesterday)

    You are right, and I agree with everything you say here.

    It is of special importance to admit that “SATAN IS AMONGST YOU AND HAS ENTERED THE CHURCH!!”

    Only an idiot would deny this when we see with startling clarity some of the terrible and sinful things that come (in word, deed and omission) from some in high places in the Church today. They are leading souls to Hell by their scandalous testimony. We must pray, pray, pray, with fasting and sacrifice, as Our Lady repeatedly told us at Fatima through the little visionaries.

    Our good and holy priests and bishops are the ones who are suffering the most, for they are the ones in the forefront of the “battle” against this evil.

  62. JabbaPapa says:

    You are right, and I agree with everything you say here

    Well, I certainly don’t.

    Our Original Sin is our “Knowledge of Good and Evil” — it leads us to frequently mistake the one for the other — those who claim that Prelates of the Church are “leading souls to Hell by their scandalous testimony” are subjecting themselves to demonic sinfulness in Pride, Sectarianism, Heresy, Factionalism, Protestantism, Rebellion, Schism, Blasphemy, Gallicanism, and spiuritual Greed.

    The Catholic Church is not a “club” with certain entry requirements that cannot be avoided, She is the Heart and the Method of God’s Singular and Eternal Desire for the Salvation of all Created Souls.

    These violent accusations against the Clergy are disgusting.

  63. kathleen says:

    Jabba,
    I was referring to Roger’s two comments above mine. He has written so much here on this thread, I cannot say whether or not I agree with everything.

    You say: “These violent accusations against the Clergy are disgusting.”

    What is truly “disgusting” is to sit back and shrug shoulders with PC indifference while Masonic and Communist infiltrators parading as bishops and cardinals inside the Church allow wickedness (e.g., sodomy, adultery, heresies of all kinds) to be promulgated and taught to the faithful. They have infiltrated our seminaries, universities, schools, etc., and yes: they are leading souls on the path to Hell by their treachery.

    I’m not accusing all “the Clergy” – don’t be silly! I love and pray daily for our holy priests and bishops who, despite normal human failings, have their eyes fixed on Christ as they struggle to bring the Truths of our Faith to the flock in a highly sexualised and anti-Christian world. (And this includes even those poorly-instructed Prelates who may be falling short in their priestly vocation through no fault of their own.)

    I had started to write a list of all the other many ways we are seeing error being spread around these days, but you read the papers and are up-to-date with what’s going on. I don’t believe you are truly blind to what you know are legitimate grievances of those who care about the welfare of peoples’ souls, when so often “vice is being renamed virtue” from the pulpit (as the questioner on this recent post was lamenting the other day), and we hear so seldom about ‘The Four Last Things’ – the “things” that really matter.

    That is also the reason the “intimidation” of the 45 signatories of the Plea to the Pope we were discussing on the other thread to clear up the confusion caused by his Exhortation on the two Synods on the Family, was so deeply disturbing. It proves that there are those in the Vatican who are spreading this confusion intentionally for we do not know what sinister ends!
    Then of course, there is the repellent so-called lavender mafia planted therein too (as was threatened in the ‘Homosexual Manifesto’) and denounced by all the recent Popes. It is so powerful and cunning, that it will be no easy task to uproot it.

    Your apparent denial of any such infiltration of ‘enemies’ out to destroy the Church from within flies in direct contrast to the warnings and testimonies of many holy men like Ven. Fulton Sheen. Men who were in the know, few left alive today, who lived through those early tumultuous days when the “smoke of Satan” was starting to gain ground.

    Don’t run “for fear of the wolves”!

  64. JabbaPapa says:

    Your apparent denial of any such infiltration

    errrmmmm — no, you’re just inventing this

  65. mmvc says:

    “demonic sinfulness in Pride, Sectarianism, Heresy, Factionalism, Protestantism, Rebellion, Schism, Blasphemy, Gallicanism, and spiuritual Greed.”

    Just about sums up this type of disgusting leading astray of the flock:


    And here’s a more recent example: http://eponymousflower.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/blessing-of-aberrosexual-couple-in.html

  66. Roger says:

    What can I say?? I recommend the following prayer to be said Daily!
    “..
    The angel of peace’s third visit
    While we were there (Lucia has testified), the angel appeared to us for the third time, holding in his hand a chalice, and above the chalice, a Host, from which a few drops of blood were falling. Leaving the chalice and Host suspended in air, HE PROSTRATED HIMSELF ON THE GROUND AND REPEATED THREE TIMES THIS PRAYER.

    “Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I adore You profoundly, and I offer You the most precious body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, IN REPARATION FOR THE OUTRAGES, SACRILEGES AND INDIFFERENCE BY WHICH HE IS OFFENDED. And by the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart and through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg the conversion of poor sinners.”

    Afterwards, he rose and took again the chalice and the Host and gave the Host to me and the contents of the chalice to Jacinta and Francisco, saying to them:

    “Take and drink the body and blood of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by ungrateful men. Repair their crimes and console your God.”

    ONCE MORE HE PROSTRATED HIMSLEF AND REPEATED WITH US THREE TIMES THE PRAYER
    “Most Holy Trinity… etc.”
    He then disappeared. As in the other instances of the angel’s appearance, exhaustion and the lock of silence held both little girls. Only Francisco, not having heard the angel, had a question to ask. “Lucia,” he said, “I know the angel gave you Holy Communion, but what was it that he gave to Jacinta and me? “That was Communion, too, Francisco. Didn’t you see the blood that dropped into the chalice from the Host?”

    The little boy, rich with the Feast that was in him, seemed satisfied. “I knew that God was in me,” he said, “but I didn’t know exactly how.” Then he knelt in love and thanksgiving to repeat and repeat the beautiful prayer of the angel.

  67. johnhenrycn says:

    mmvc: I got to the 2:29 mark. So sad. I’ve never experienced anything like that (except for the occasional gee-tar) but I pity Catholics who have to endure it, or worse, who like it.

  68. johnhenrycn says:

    We had a visiting priest here two years ago. From Ghana. I’ve mentioned him here before. Excellent speaker. He always sang part of his sermons as, I suppose, African exuberance in the love of the Lord prompted him to do. Nothing exactly wrong with that; but the problem for me was that he became the star attraction at Mass, so much so that he was given an ovation (not a standing one, thank God) at the conclusion of the Good Friday Mass that year. Applause at Mass. For the priest. On Good Friday.

  69. kathleen says:

    Jabba @ 20:08 yesterday.

    (Big sigh)… Really Jabba, you are becoming as contradictory (of your own previous rebukes) as our old Dublin lawyer, Mr Kehoe, who used to roam these pages once upon a time!
    Let’s let others read through the comments and judge for themselves to see if I was inventing anything.

    ——–

    And talking of Mr Kehoe, there was – surprise, surprise – a comment from him sitting in pre-Moderation since yesterday. Being nothing but the usual snarky, sarcastic offering, the Moderator won’t ‘approve’ it, I expect, but his ongoing desire to offend is really quite amazing!

    At the same time I just happened to spot loads of comments from Toad that had all gone automatically into our ‘spam folder’. (I released the last two; the others were old or repetitions.)
    Toad – if you are reading this – sorry about that glitch. No fault of anyone on CP&S – honestly – so you can take back all those angry recriminations.😉
    (We get alerts to comments sent to pre-moderation, but not to the ones that fill up the spam.)

  70. Toad says:

    My comment made earlier here has gone again. Look in the trash. As always.

    [From Kathleen: Toad, I have searched for your new comment but it doesn’t appear anywhere – neither in pre-moderation, nor spam, and most certainly not in trash where it would only go if we sent it there! Have you a copy? Write it again, and if it makes me laugh, I’ll ‘approve’ it for you.😉 ]

  71. johnhenrycn says:

    Old colicky Kehoe! Is he still roaming the web seeking the bile, if not the ruin, of souls?
    Hello out there, John. Don’t be a stranger!

  72. kathleen says:

    Have just watched (whilst cringing all the way through) the two videos Maryla (mmvc) posted last night! Yes, I actually sat through the whole thing – must be a glutton for punishment – but I should have been wiser, like JH, and pressed ‘stop’ at least to the first video, because now I cannot get the distressing images of such mockery of the Holy Mass out of my mind! The only positive thing was the interesting script that scrolled up from the screen of the second video, explaining why it is so necessary to safeguard the Mass from such abuses.

    What a pantomime these modernists have made of the Novus Ordo Mass! Hopefully they were all invalid Masses, so then the Sacred Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ would not have been present in the bread and wine, thus avoiding the sacrileges we witnessed.
    I am relieved that I have never had to attend a NOM like anything we saw here, although I do remember a few I’ve been to whilst travelling that were pretty bad!

    The reality is though – I genuinely do not think it was the intention (at least of the majority of the people in the videos, both priests and congregation) to do wrong or to ridicule Our Lord. They most likely think the whole thing is a lot of fun and the best way to show their joy, believing Our Lord is shown love with such merry goings-on. They are probably left wondering later on where all the men have gone, and why so many people give up going when they grow up a bit and realise how silly the whole thing is!

    Just goes to show how badly our Catholic religious instruction has failed in the last approximately 50 years. I have heard so many returning Catholics say they never learnt about sacrifice, sin and redemption, the necessity of confession, any of the Catholic doctrines, etc., at their Catholic schools! It was all about feeling good, being nice, and that soppy type of thing. Is it really any wonder we are now in this mess in the West?
    (Here EWTN and the internet has done a world of good in informing searching Catholics about their faith.)

    Well, Russia must be doing something right; the figures of those embracing Christianity (albeit, to the Russian Orthodox Church) are growing fast, whilst the West moves nearer each day towards a lukewarm secularised society, where anything ungodly is cheered, even by some of those who like to call themselves ‘Christians’! (Maryla’s link below the videos also gives an example of that!)

  73. JabbaPapa says:

    (Big sigh)… Really Jabba, you are becoming as contradictory (of your own previous rebukes) as our old Dublin lawyer, Mr Kehoe, who used to roam these pages once upon a time!

    I have NEVER denied the existence of infiltration by Freemasons. That is what you accused me of, and I reject the accusation completely.

  74. kathleen says:

    Okay, Jabba, but what do you think these infiltrated Freemasons in the Church are coming dressed as – or at least the majority of them? Not as ordinary folk, laity, like you and me, but as Prelates!! They have infiltrated disguised as pretend Catholic priests! They would have to, if their aim is to destroy the Church from within – which we know full well it is. They are the ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’ we have often talked about here.

    P.S. I actually said your “apparent denial” (of infiltration) which is not quite the same. I found it hard to believe you could deny it.
    And that’s nothing compared to all the nasty things you accused me of (@ 16:00 on 9/9) and that mmvc pointed out above the videos!!

  75. mmvc says:

    Jabba on September 7 at 18:43

    You said to Roger: “You have NO IDEA what an Experience of the Beatific Vision is actually like.”

    I hope you don’t mind my interjecting here, but I’ve been thinking about this…

    Isn’t it the case that whilst in exile here on earth NO ONE (save the Blessed Virgin Mary who was at all times fully united to the Holy Trinity) has had or will have an experience of the fullness of the Beatific Vision (the divine essence). But God, in His infinite love, mercy and wisdom, chooses to lift the veil to a greater or lesser degree for some souls, granting them mystical experiences (visions, locutions, communications, transportations etc) which may be for their own spiritual benefit and in some cases also for that of many others (Lourdes and Fatima are obvious examples of the latter.)

    Without wanting to go into any details here, I know that in His mercy the Lord reached out to me in an indescribable and extraordinary way to lead me back from the wide road to perdition on to the narrow and steep path that leads to Him. I also know of a good number of people who have had such experiences and who as a result have not only grown tremendously in their own Faith but have also helped others to do so in an exemplary way. I would suggest therefore that we can’t possibly judge who has or who has not had such a ‘glimpse of the heaven’ in this life.

  76. JabbaPapa says:

    Isn’t it the case that whilst in exile here on earth NO ONE (save the Blessed Virgin Mary who was at all times fully united to the Holy Trinity) has had or will have an experience of the fullness of the Beatific Vision (the divine essence)

    Yes, with the exception of some very VERY few extraordinary Saints who have passed into the Afterlife almost immediately following. My opinion is that Saint Mary’s own full Beatific Vision is the Assumption. I could very well be wrong about that though …

    But God, in His infinite love, mercy and wisdom, chooses to lift the veil to a greater or lesser degree for some souls, granting them mystical experiences (visions, locutions, communications, transportations etc) which may be for their own spiritual benefit and in some cases also for that of many others (Lourdes and Fatima are obvious examples of the latter.)

    That is completely correct.

    Without wanting to go into any details here, I know that in His mercy the Lord reached out to me in an indescribable and extraordinary way to lead me back from the wide road to perdition on to the narrow and steep path that leads to Him

    That’s not the Beatific Vision that has been seen within some mortal lives — which is a partly veiled Vision of Heaven and/or God, it being hard to distinguish the One from the other from any mortal perspective.

    The Primary Scriptural example is God revealing Himself to Moses with His Hand placed before the Prophet’s eyes.

    If it were not partly veiled, one simply could not possibly desire to continue in this life. It is fundamentally a Vision of the Divine Essence and of our Soul’s Lasting and most Fundamental Desire.

    It is a Vision into Infinite and Eternal Love in unimaginable Utmost Holy Purity.

  77. JabbaPapa says:

    I actually said your “apparent denial” (of infiltration) which is not quite the same.

    That’s quibbling.

  78. johnhenrycn says:

    I make a good living quibbling🙂

  79. kathleen says:

    Jabba, you quibble about something insignificant and trivial – and that I only said BECAUSE you took such umbrage at MY REMARK about infiltration of evil into the Church – yet you show no shame nor remorse for an amazing lack of charity towards me!

    I’ll remind you…

    @ 16:00 on 9th Sept you replied to my comment two hours earlier in this VERY uncharitable way:

    “those who claim that Prelates of the Church are “leading souls to Hell by their scandalous testimonyare subjecting themselves to demonic sinfulness in Pride, Sectarianism, Heresy, Factionalism, Protestantism, Rebellion, Schism, Blasphemy, Gallicanism, and spiuritual Greed. […]
    These violent accusations against the Clergy are disgusting.”

    Nice, huh? “Violent accusations”? It’s yours that were “violent”. To say nothing of hurtful and completely unwarranted.

    All I had done was express Our Lady’s own warnings, and what is a common grievance of thousands of Catholics today – that souls are being led along the path to Hell by some who should have been in charge of leading them to Heaven!

    I did not insult you when I responded @ 19:26 (same day) to explain further what I meant by those nameless “Prelates”, and to clarify that I was obviously referring only to those who had purposelfully infiltrated the Church (Masons, ‘the lavender mafia’) “to destroy Her from within”. (Seems now that you think this too!)
    Yet it must have appeared to probably everyone that you were denying any such “infiltration” could even exist!
    Maryla (mmvc) certainly noticed it, which is why she repeated back your horrible words to me with some good examples of what this ” type of disgusting leading astray of the flock” really means!

    Then after I asked you who you thought these “infiltrators” were supposed to be, if not “Masons disguised as priests”, you avoided answering that question of course.
    And resorted instead to “quibbling”, hypocritically hiding the fact that you agreed all along with what I’d originally stated.

    Well, that’s one way of getting out of a sticky situation, I suppose!

  80. mmvc says:

    Thanks for your reply Jabba @ 22.34.

    I hope you don’t think I’m quibbling too, but you might have missed the point here.

    There was never any doubt in my mind that the type of experience I referred to was NOT one of the Beatific Vision. It may however have been enough of a taste of “what God has prepared for those who love Him” to realise how amazingly awesome it must be to find oneself fully beholding and enjoying the Divine Essence. That is why – given that you don’t know anything about Roger’s spiritual life – I found your assertion that he has “NO IDEA” about what the Beatific Vision is like, a little strange.

    Interesting point about the few Saints who died soon after beholding God/Heaven. Saint Stephen, who at his martyrdom saw the heavens open just before he died, came to mind. In a discussion about this with a friend, he suggested that many martyrs for the Faith may be granted similar graces to help them persevere in their final terrible hour.

  81. JabbaPapa says:

    That is why – given that you don’t know anything about Roger’s spiritual life – I found your assertion that he has “NO IDEA” about what the Beatific Vision is like, a little strange.

    mmvc please — I do not doubt your own honesty for a second, but it is still not moot for those, and I don’t mean you, clearly having no manifest experience with direct Divine Interventions involving Visions to seek to try and provide instruction in these matters.

    MANY among us, I suspect, have had direct experiences of Divine Nature in their lives, apart from the Blessed Encounter in Eucharist — and I most certainly do NOT exclude Roger from that possibility — but the vast majority of these do not constitute the Beatific Vision, which is vastly different to Divine Interventions that occur entirely within the normal Order of Creation, even when that normality may be bypassed by the Intervention in question.

    Roger seeks to systematically subject such Interventions to certain rules of his own belief, except that rules belong to material Created Reality, and God is NOT their Subject.

    The Beatific Vision occurs as the Encounter with the Order of Original Divine Reality that most Divine Interventions do not constitute, because of their occurrence within the Material Order.

    Please understand — these remarks are NOT any manner of attempt to systematise the Orders of Divine Action according to some rules of my own devising ; God transcends any and all such rules or purely mortal understandings, so that I am simply trying to provide my own personal impressions from experience.

    But this nevertheless prevents me by no manner at all from pointing out that Roger’s conceptions of what a direct Presence in Beatific Vision of the Divine towards living mortals is like, and signifies, do not resemble the Reality of the Divine Presence in His Infinite and Utterly Benevolent Love.

    It is not my affair to convince anyone of these things — but it is certainly my affair when falsehoods pertaining to these matters are presented to my face as if constituting “instruction” and “doctrines”, whereas in fact they are quite clearly the products of imagination and invention.

  82. JabbaPapa says:

    Jabba, you quibble about something insignificant and trivial – and that I only said BECAUSE you took such umbrage at MY REMARK about infiltration of evil into the Church – yet you show no shame nor remorse for an amazing lack of charity towards me!

    Please kathleen — you have misunderstood, which must of course be my fault.

    I did not attack you by the remarks : “those who claim that Prelates of the Church are “leading souls to Hell by their scandalous testimony” are subjecting themselves to demonic sinfulness in Pride, Sectarianism, Heresy, Factionalism, Protestantism, Rebellion, Schism, Blasphemy, Gallicanism, and spiuritual Greed.” — but I was attempting to point out that these are EXACTLY

  83. JabbaPapa says:

    — but I was attempting to point out that these are EXACTLY results of Masonic infiltration into the Church !!

    The confusion that we are in, whereby even Faithful Catholics can conceive of such accusations, is a Product of Masonic infiltrations and of their evil and demonic ideology.

    To say nothing of hurtful and completely unwarranted

    I’m very sorry if you were hurt, kathleen, but my personal hostility towards the numerous exciting claims by those idiots at the Remnant is most certainly NOT directed against yourself !!!

    I did not insult you when

    No you did not — but then please understand I didn’t insult you in my negative comments directed against Sectarians, Heretics, Factionalists, Protestants, Rebels, Schismatics, and Blasphemers — given that QUITE CLEARLY you belong to NONE of these groups !!!

    Yet it must have appeared to probably everyone that you were denying any such “infiltration” could even exist!

    I wrote : “the “errors” in question have quite clearly spread ” (within a rhetorical question).

    I am sick and tired of Roger’s constant misinterpretations of what people write, and I really do hope you’ll refrain from accepting them.

    Maryla (mmvc) certainly noticed it, which is why she repeated back your horrible words to me with some good examples of what this ” type of disgusting leading astray of the flock” really means!

    I have interpreted her rather pertinent remarks far more charitably than that !!🙂

  84. johnhenrycn says:

    “I am sick and tired of Roger’s constant misinterpretations of what people write, and I really do hope you’ll refrain from accepting them.”

    Oh, give over. What would you do without Roger/Robert to fight with? Now, granted: for you that’s like shooting fish in a barrel, but personally, I’m gobsmacked whenever I see his silly grin. I’d rather wrestle with a leprous leprechaun from Limerick than with Roger/Robert, let me tell you.

  85. JabbaPapa says:

    What would you do without Roger/Robert to fight with?

    LOL

    I do understand how my polemics must seem from the outside. Not everyone’s cup of tea …

  86. kathleen says:

    JH @ 22:17

    “I’d rather wrestle with a leprous leprechaun from Limerick than with Roger/Robert”

    I shall be the ‘genie in the lamp’ and let your wish be my command, JH.😉

    Mr John Kehoe has had another bash at annoying us, and I spot another of his offerings sitting in pre-moderation, for the “Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary” thread this time. Unlike his previous comment, this one does not bash anyone, yet he gives us his old progressive line all the same.

    ——-

    Jabba,

    Thank you for your long and welcome explanation. It’s really late now – was at a wonderful open air Flamenco show earlier – and I can’t think straight anymore… nor stop yawning! I’ll respond tomorrow.
    Good-night.

  87. kathleen says:

    Jabba @ 22:00 yesterday

    “— but I was attempting to point out that these are EXACTLY results of Masonic infiltration into the Church !!

    Okay – I take your word for it that it is what you were, in fact, trying to get across too, and I’m glad, but I believe it really wasn’t clear to anyone here, dear friend, not just me! Especially as you quoted back my own words about Prelates of the Church who are “leading souls to Hell by their scandalous testimony”, before that string of strong recriminations.

    I’m relieved you “QUITE CLEARLY” recognise that I do not belong to any of those groups of “Sectarians, Heretics, Factionalists, etc.”, but here I must put a word in for whom you refer to as “those idiots at the Remnant” who you think do fit the bill!

    They are not “idiots”, Jabba, nor do they fit into those groups of enemies of the Faith that you reel off. Please don’t call them that. They are fellow Catholics who are fully in-line with EVERYTHING the Catholic Church teaches, IOW, they are 100% orthodox in their beliefs. Having met many of them on the Chartres pilgrimage, I can also tell you that they are warm and friendly, with a great joie de vivre in their Catholic Faith. Michael Matt and Chris Ferrara are particularly good friends with the leaders of our British chapters, especially with author, Jamie Bogle.
    I understand that in some of the Remnant’s very conservative views on certain contentious topics, e.g., the Third Secret of Fatima – besides the strong language they use to denounce heresies from whomsoever it may come – that perhaps not all other Catholics like their approach. But on faithfulness to doctrinal teachings on ‘Faith and Morals’, you could not fault them.

    And about Roger (for whom I admit I have a soft spot) I believe he is a bit of an incognito!😉
    He sometimes has some problems with, er, spelling and punctuation, and even with expressing himself coherently at times, which can make his posts difficult to read, but he also comes across as someone who loves God and the Blessed Virgin very dearly. You don’t need to share all his interest in supernatural apparitions or strange phenomena, but his Faith is orthodox too IMHO.
    Please be patient with him.

  88. mmvc says:

    Amen to all you say here, Kathleen.
    Even though I haven’t had the privilege of meeting anyone from The Remnant, I have every confidence that these are good people who greatly love the Church and valiantly defend the Truth.
    I’ve certainly learned much from their writings and videos. As I have from our dear Roger’s contributions.🙂

  89. mmvc says:

    Jabba @ 21:37
    Again, thanks for this, but I find your reasoning here somewhat difficult to follow and as I’m reluctant to get into a debate about a fellow contributor’s spiritual credentials, I’d rather call it a day.

  90. JabbaPapa says:

    I must put a word in for whom you refer to as “those idiots at the Remnant” who you think do fit the bill

    Idiots are a different category entirely to “Sectarians, Heretics, Factionalists, Protestants, Rebels, Schismatics, and Blasphemers”.

    It is hardly my place to accuse any particular individuals of these things, but the theological and philosophical incompetence of sundry Remnant contributors is not what I admire.

  91. JabbaPapa says:

    They are fellow Catholics who are fully in-line with EVERYTHING the Catholic Church teaches

    This is a false statement.

  92. kathleen says:

    Jabba, could you perhaps show me why that is “a false statement”?

    The Remnant certainly might not agree with every pronouncement coming from the hierarchy (with its now agreed upon Masonic infiltration of the Vatican) but they agree with all the Catholic Church’s doctrines and dogmas as contained in the CCC, whilst living them out in practice. As Maryla says above, they “greatly love the Church and valiantly defend the Truth.”

    I’d thought you were accusing The Remnant of being “Sectarians, Heretics, Factionalists, etc.”, because when we were talking about this, you’d said to me @ 22:00 yesterday:

    “I’m very sorry if you were hurt, kathleen, but my personal hostility towards the numerous exciting claims by those idiots at the Remnant is most certainly NOT directed against yourself !!!”

    I’m relieved I misunderstood you here AGAIN, and to hear you were not referring to them either at being any of those types of heretics, at least!

    Phew! How often we who talk together through cyber space appear to misunderstand each other.

  93. kathleen says:

    I’m going to get this post back on topic (of Russia’s happy reawakening to Christianity) after reading a really interesting article by Peter Hitchens over at ‘First Things’ a couple of days ago. He lives in Russia, so he knows what he’s talking about when he describes the changes taking place there. Robert Siscoe (the author of this above post) was not mistaken in his analysis it would appear.
    Hitchens concludes his article thus:

    “The misreading of Russia’s geopolitical situation is especially sad because for the first time in many decades there is much to hope for in Moscow. Out of utopian misery has come the prospect of rebirth. It is as yet incipient. But I see great possibilities in it, in the many once-blighted churches now open and loved and full again, in the reappearance of symbols of pre-Bolshevik Russia, in the growth of a generation not stunted and pitted by poisoned air and food, nor twisted by Communist ethics. Many Russians will never recover from the cynicism they were taught, the mistrust, the contempt for religion and the foul cult of Comrade Pavlik. But their children can, and may. Why then, when so much of what we hoped for in the long Soviet period has come to pass, do we so actively seek their enmity?

    Hillary Clinton’s comparison of President Putin to Adolf Hitler in a speech in California in March is the most striking example of this willingness to adopt the most extreme possible language, even by senior figures in government. Diplomats and media follow the same course, squawking about a “New Cold War” and seeking the most alarmist possible interpretation of every Russian action. But much of this NATO-related chatter increases the very fear and tension against which this odd alliance (whose actual purpose was fully achieved in 1991) claims to be defending us. We are now talking ourselves into a conflict for no good reason.

    There was an old English description of the collapse of all order, hope, and mercy during the reign of King Stephen: “Seven long years when God and his Angels slept.” In Russia it was seventy years, not seven. Now they are over, and it is time we acknowledged this. If Russia is ever to become a country in which safety is normal and danger an aberration, we must understand the depths to which they were forced to sink and from which they are now slowly emerging. It is time not for a New Cold War, but for the Consolation of All Sorrows. If we do not recognize this, there will be many more sorrows to be consoled, here and there.”

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/10/the-cold-war-is-over

    Perhaps the Russians really had to see just how bad life was without Christ when under the Communists. And now there is rebirth; a rekindling of faith and hope! We must pray it is so.
    Apparently, after every Holy Mass before Vatican II, there were prayers for “the conversion of Russia”! That’s billions or trillions of prayers – and could have been more – to convert hearts to Jesus and Mary once again, Deo gratias.

  94. JabbaPapa says:

    Well, just for starters, the fools at the Remnant reject Pius XII’s Encyclical Humani Generis in its teachings on evolution, as well even as Saints Augustine and Thomas Aquinas in their own writings on the question.

    For whilst (HG) 6. Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy which, rivaling idealism, immanentism and pragmatism, has assumed the name of existentialism, since it concerns itself only with existence of individual things and neglects all consideration of their immutable essences.

    Nevertheless : 20. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me”; (and so much for claims at the Remnant that one may pick and choose what to accept or not)

    And they actually teach AGAINST 36. For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter – for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.

    ————-

    But please, kathleen, I have no desire to return to that cesspool of near-schismatic rebellion to grub around for further examples of ideological heterodoxy.

  95. JabbaPapa says:

    (Not to mention Pope Saint John Paul II http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/fr/messages/pont_messages/1996/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_19961022_evoluzione.html ; and Pope Francis’ own very significant contribution to the question in Laudato Si’)

  96. Roger says:

    St Peter was a Fisherman.
    Snakes can swim. With Fishing of course goes deliberate baiting by deliberately placing BAIT hoping to catch the unwary FISH.

    1917 Freemasons the Portugal Republic document against Fatima.

    “..What shall be our means of co-operation with those from whom we claim the action necessary for the end we envisage? An intensive and tenacious propaganda, which will raise the mentality of our citizens to the realms of truth, reason and science, convincing them that nothing can alter the laws of nature ..”

    Pope Leo XIII was warned by Heaven of the sifting of the Church and the 100 years permitted to Satan to destroy the Church.

    IT IS PRETTY OBVIOUS THAT APPLES (BAIT) WILL BE SEEN AND FOUND INSIDE THE CHURCH – THE LAWS OF NATURE (Naturalism and this to replace the CREATOR with the MAKER [Masonic Great Architect]) THE REALMS OF TRUTH, REASON AND SCIENCE.

    The Miracles done by Our Lord have been repeated by His Saints for 2000 years. The Children of Mary and the Children of the Ape of God who is Satan. Take your choice. I have chosen The Queen of Heaven.

  97. Roger says:

    This extremely unpleasant and unhelpful remark should have been MODERATED
    “..
    the fools at the Remnant reject Pius XII’s Encyclical Humani Generis in its teachings on evolution
    ..”

    HUMAN GENESIS PIUS XII
    Which is Binding on John Paul II and Francis

    When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

    NOW THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION MEANS THAT OUR LADY’S BODY AND OUR LORD’S BODY AND THE EUCHARIST ARE ADAMS BODY BEFORE THE FALL.

    Public Revelation
    THE RECORDED GENERATIONS FROM ADAM THROUGH TO CHRIST 5199 years.

  98. JabbaPapa says:

    This extremely unpleasant and unhelpful remark should have been MODERATED
    “..
    the fools at the Remnant reject Pius XII’s Encyclical Humani Generis in its teachings on evolution
    ..”

    Oh give it a rest Roger, you’re trying to defend positions that have been overtly and resoundingly denounced multiple times over the centuries by the Magisterium of Holy Catholic Church.

  99. kathleen says:

    Jabba @ 06:24

    Jabba – what on earth are you claiming? The Remnant has the highest regard for Pope Pius XII !!

    Yes, they are Creationists; they believe that Man was created in one supreme act as Genesis describes, and Humani Generis reaffirms. If they do not hold to any other form of an evolving human being, and adamantly reject that OPTION given in one part of the Encyclical, that is irrelevant, and of course does not mean that they reject the whole document. Not at all!
    (Roger says it very well @ 11:24.)

    But as I totally disagree that The Remnant is a “cesspool of near-schismatic rebellion” (wow!), yes, I think we should leave it there.

  100. JabbaPapa says:

    NOW THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION MEANS THAT OUR LADY’S BODY AND OUR LORD’S BODY AND THE EUCHARIST ARE ADAMS BODY BEFORE THE FALL.

    This is a gravely Erroneous misrepresentation of the Catholic Dogmata in these matters, and it is quite clearly heterodox (and more likely blasphemous and heretical) to claim that St Mary is “one” with the Eucharist.

    The Holy Virgin Saint Mary, Mother of God, is NOT a “fourth member of the Trinity”, and ANY claims that this might be so are directly, formally, and materially Heretical.

  101. JabbaPapa says:

    Roger says it very well @ 11:24

    kathleen, Roger’s views on this matter are not coherent with the Orthodoxy of Catholic Faith.

    Yes, they are Creationists; they believe that Man was created in one supreme act as Genesis describes, and Humani Generis reaffirms

    A more careful reading of those documents, particularly in the light of Pope Francis’ rather excellent teaching on this question in Laudato Si’, provides no support for that allegation as being obedient to Catholic Dogma — and in particular, no — Humani Generis teaches no such thing, unless through misinterpretation.

    Insofar that “the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter“, it is then doctrinally FALSE to claim that the precise opposite of this doctrine is somehow required by Holy Church.

    They may allege that Scripture trumps Catholic Dogma — which is Protestant, by nature.

    Ultimately though, they do not understand the Catholic concept of evolution, nor in particular the fact that it is a teleological conception provided by a Divine Creation that is not subjected to material processes — but rather that the end of evolution should be understood as existing since Eternity and towards the precise end result that living Souls in the Image of God shall reside with Him in Heaven.

    They do not understand Humani Generis ; they do not understand St Thomas Aquinas in his examination of these questions ; they do not understand Pope Saint John Paul II’s message on this matter to the Pontifical Academy for Science. One should not be overly surprised by their failure to understand Laudato Si’.

  102. Roger says:

    Jabba

    1/ Our Lord is True God and True MAN.
    2/ Man means FROM the single MAN ADAM.
    3/ Our Lady likewise FROM the single MAN ADAM
    4/ Eve of COURSE CAME FROM ADAM.
    5/ The Eucharist is the BODY (from MARY and ADAM) BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY OF OUR LORD.

    These are your words and not mine should have been MODERATED.
    “..
    The Holy Virgin Saint Mary, Mother of God, is NOT a “fourth member of the Trinity”, and ANY claims that this might be so are directly, formally, and materially Heretical.
    ..”
    Please that refrain from using that Anglican Church title Saint Mary
    She is the QUEEN of Heaven and Of Earth THE MOTHER OF GOD.
    THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION.

  103. Roger says:

    Careful Jabba your arguments here Heretical DUALISM.

    Pope Pius XII KNEW THE DOGMA THAT THE SOUL IS THE FORM OF THE BODY.

  104. Roger says:

    Kathleen

    HUMANUS GENERIS
    37 When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

    Jabba is quoting section 36 out of context.

  105. JabbaPapa says:

    Roger, you’re talking complete rubbish.

    My reactions against you are required by my duty towards the Revelation and to Holy Church.

    Your utterly ludicrous claim about Saint Mary is far from Catholic — You are deeply abused if you imagine that perfect Sainthood is somehow lesser than she is.

  106. JabbaPapa says:

    Jabba is quoting section 36 out of context

    No I jolly well an NOT.

    You OTOH quite clearly do NOT comprehend the Encyclical.

    PS — BTW Roger, I am NOT supporting Polygenism nor any other such Errors denounced by the Pope. You however are overtly defying the Doctrine that freedom of opinion in these matters is Catholic.

  107. Roger says:

    Francis writings are already causing confusion over what they mean or don’t mean.

    But His Authority comes from Our Lord True God and True MAN (that is Man from Adam)
    He obviously cannot deny the Dogmas that follow from Adam’s SIN can HE so why are you saying that He has?

    Pius XII MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI

    “..
    9. For while there still survives a false rationalism, which ridicules anything that transcends and defies the power of human genius, and which is accompanied by a cognate error, the so-called popular naturalism, which sees and wills to see in the Church nothing but a juridical and social union, there is on the other hand a false mysticism creeping in, which, in its attempt to eliminate the immovable frontier that separates creatures from their Creator, falsifies the Sacred Scriptures.
    ..”

  108. JabbaPapa says:

    Roger, you’re a poster boy for false rationalism and false mysticism.

  109. Roger says:

    Jabba

    The Saints were ALL born with the Sin Of Adam. Such a small word but pregnant with meaning!

    Our Lady is The IMMACULATE CONCEPTION (Without Original Sin!)

  110. Roger says:

    Jabba
    Please refrain from throwing insults of a personal nature.
    I am a poor ignorant Sinner and am very grateful for honest correction. As I am sure you are.

  111. JabbaPapa says:

    Roger, you understand nothing of the Essence of Sainthood.

    You do not understand the Dogma of Immaculate Conception, and instead you seek to try and rationalise it in your own small manner.

  112. JabbaPapa says:

    Please refrain from throwing insults of a personal nature

    Then stop your false accusations.

  113. JabbaPapa says:

    Actually, I don’t matter — but please STOP presenting your own personal opinions as if they constituted Church teaching.

  114. Roger says:

    Pius XII MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI

    26. As We set out briefly to expound in what sense Christ founded His social Body, the following thought of Our predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, occurs to Vs at once: “The Church which, already conceived, came forth from the side of the second Adam in His sleep on the Cross, first showed Herself before the eyes of men on the great day of Pentecost.” For the Divine Redeemer began the building of the mystical temple of the Church when by His preaching He made known His precepts; He completed it when He hung glorified on the Cross; and He manifested and proclaimed it when He sent the Holy Ghost as Paraclete in visible form on His disciples.

    Our Lord’s sleeping Body was laid on Our Lady’s Lap.
    Jesus and Mary second Adam and second Eve (sinless)

    The Woman clothed with the Sun was seen at Fatima? Means Both Our Lady and the Church she is the Mother of the Mystical Body.

    Please understand that in attacking Genesis and especially Adam (one single MAN) what is being attacked is the Passion of Christ and The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Passion is meaningless without Adam. This is why Adam the Man it is attacked without mercy!

  115. JabbaPapa says:

    in attacking Genesis

    /roll-eyes/

    The Woman clothed with the Sun was seen at Fatima?

    I say it again — you have no understanding of the Beatific Vision.

  116. mmvc says:

    “Roger, you understand nothing of the Essence of Sainthood.”
    “I say it again — you have no understanding of the Beatific Vision.”
    /roll-eyes/

    I thought it said in Scripture “blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have BELIEVED” rather than “blessed are they who have UNDERSTOOD”.

    For all you know, Jabba, Roger may be striving more than all of us put together towards sanctity and he may very well have been blessed with more of a foretaste of the Beatific Vision than you or I. One of my dearest friends is an older gentleman who has lived a profound life of prayer, devotion and consecration to Our Lord and His Blessed Mother. Despite bearing many crosses, he has inspired and helped countless souls to know and love the Faith ever more deeply and I’m sure that he will do so with his dying breath and beyond. Like Roger, he is a great promoter of the Fatima message and a creationist. Even though some members of my family don’t share all of his strongly held views, they would NEVER, EVER be so arrogant and uncharitable as to refer to him as an Idiot or a fool or suggest that he is ignorant (i.e has no idea or understanding about XYZ).

  117. Roger says:

    Well I think you will find that my opinions (as you like to call them) actually agree with Pius XII

    THIS IS COMMUNISM AND EVOLUTION CONDEMNED AND DISCREDITED
    5. If anyone examines the state of affairs outside the Christian fold, he will easily discover the principal trends that not a few learned men are following. Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all this, and audaciously support the monistic and pantheistic opinion that the world is in continual evolution. Communists gladly subscribed to this opinion so that, when the souls of men have been deprived of every idea of a personal God, they may the more efficaciously defend and propagate their dialectical materialism.

    FICTIONS OF EVOLUTION CONDEMNED
    6. Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy which, rivaling idealism, immanentism and pragmatism, has assumed the name of existentialism, since it concerns itself only with existence of individual things and neglects all consideration of their immutable essences.

    THE SOUL IS THE FORM OF THE BODY.

  118. Roger says:

    mmvc
    My Payers For You And Yours And Also Jabba

    OUR LADY IS REAL ALIVE AND SHE KNOWS EACH AND EVERYONE OF HER CHILDREN
    Heaven Asked The Church to Consecrate Russia in 1929. It wasn’t done and World War II came Communism increased with the Soviet Union and Catholic Nations trapped in Atheist Russia.
    1960 the world knew of the 3rd secret had suffered a World War and it was filed away!
    Creator of course ever living creature that ever was is unique!
    The Creator creates your Soul, that’s you! The Soul is the Form Of The Body Adam was Created by God with Grace, which was lost with Original Sin.

    Evolution?
    God does not experiment with random chance.
    Go this way and the wolves will devour your Faith.

  119. JabbaPapa says:

    Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable” …

    … does NOT mean that evolution itself is condemned as “fictitious”, but only that certain false explanations of it are to be denied.

  120. JabbaPapa says:

    God does not experiment with random chance

    Nor has the Church EVER explained it in such a manner.

  121. JabbaPapa says:

    he may very well have been blessed with more of a foretaste of the Beatific Vision than you or I

    Quod scimus loquimur, et quod vidimus testamur.

    [The Moderator – This seems like a good point to draw this thread to a close. Thank you all for your comments.]

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