In a Time of Desolation, A Calling for New Beguines?

By Hilary White at OnePeterFive:

fig-6aWhat if there were a place for women to go who love the Lord, who felt drawn to a life of prayer and intimate union with Him, who desired a life devoted to poverty, chastity and obedience but who, for any number of reasons, could not pursue traditional religious life?

What if there were a house of … let’s say “dedicated” ladies who devoted themselves to a quiet, orderly life of prayer and good works, who voluntarily took upon themselves the task of praying for others, praying for the Church and the world, of living a life of fraternal charity in community, of engaging in mental prayer, and attending daily Mass and reciting the Divine Office in their traditional forms?

What if such a … group … were open to receiving guests for spiritual retreats in a secluded country setting where there is opportunity for spiritual direction and fresh air and outdoor work? Do you think there might be some interest?

I come back again to my thoughts on “Lost Vocations.” What if there were a whole demographic cohort of women who were the right age at decidedly the wrong time, while the religious life as it had been known, was being torn down to its roots? What if they have been turned away because they have health issues? Or because they are too old for formation? Or – and here’s the really sticky one – if they have come to realize they cannot concede any part of the Faith to fit into the New Paradigm of the Novusordoist compromise (even in its “conservative” guise) and go along with the Pope Francis-rebellion against Christ?

What do you do if you think you have a vocation to religious life and all the world is busy groaning to find itself Bergoglian?

It seems a strange time, doesn’t it, to be thinking about starting something? At a moment when in the Church and the world, all Hell seems literally to be loosed. But that is thinking the thoughts of time, and of this world. God tends to have some funny timing, and from the point of view of the supernatural realities, what better time could there possibly be to dedicate one’s self to a life of intense prayer and union with the suffering Christ, than when His Holy Church is being scourged and crowned with thorns and denied by those who profess to love her?

A friend wrote today on Facebook that “a demand” is being made “for people to obey something that is patently morally wrong and against Revelation and Tradition.

It’s a bind – because where is Peter, there is the Church – and for people to choose to leave because of an unworthy successor…?”

As Father David Nix wrote a few weeks back, in a turn of phrase that struck me to my core: the Church is being crucified; will you leave her?

Obviously no. Never. One does not leave the Church; one holds fast to what one knows is true. If one is turned away from the religious life for refusing to stop calling out and denouncing the evil that has infiltrated us and finally almost conquered the Church; if one is kicked out of one’s monastery, one’s rectory, one’s college, one’s religious order, one’s diocese for refusing to go along… one takes it on the chin and keeps praying. One never leaves any of those things voluntarily; one waits to be kicked out. And until that happens, one continues to preach and teach the One True Faith. To denounce the deception and cunning lies and errors. God provides a roof when the need arises.

OK, but everyone wants to know: what, right now, can we do?

I spent 15 years as an “activist,” and increasingly understood through all that time that it was the wrong way. The Francis revolution shows us that this is not a battle over laws or medical ethics. It is a war for souls. One does not fight a war for souls by circulating petitions or organizing rallies.

In the long history of the Church’s many crises, God has shown us how He expects us to answer attacks on the Faith. And, in case we had failed to get the message, Our Lady has come to spell it out plainly: Prayer. Penance. Sacrifice. The spiritual war must be fought with spiritual weapons. The complete “metanoia” – the turning of one’s self back to the Lord, the turning away from the world, the flesh and the devil; the renunciation of self; the stripping away of faults; the single-minded pursuit of holiness.

Read on here

and here

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42 Responses to In a Time of Desolation, A Calling for New Beguines?

  1. JabbaPapa says:

    Novusordoist

    oh, please

    /roll-eyes/

    the Pope Francis-rebellion against Christ

    Why is someone trying to turn CP&S into a sedevacantist website ?? What, is there some sort of secret plan to get Mundabor back ???

  2. mmvc says:

    Why is someone trying to turn CP&S into a sedevacantist website ??

    Textbook case of over interpretation!

  3. mmvc says:

    Hilary White: ‘And I’m not a sede, and never will be, so there’s no answer there.’

    https://whatisupwiththesynod.com/index.php/2016/10/11/you-cant-take-the-sky-from-me/

  4. JabbaPapa says:

    Textbook case of over interpretation

    No : sarcasm, which is a form of deliberate exaggeration.

  5. mmvc says:

    …deliberate exaggeration

    to the point of falsehood in this case.

  6. JabbaPapa says:

    Sarcasm is always a deliberate exaggeration to the point of falsehood — it’s a basic requirement of that figure of speech. It’s one of the things that distinguishes it from irony, and is exactly why no sarcastic comment should be interpreted literally.

  7. mmvc says:

    ‘Sarcasm is always a deliberate exaggeration to the point of falsehood’

    How’s this for an application of your latest lesson?

    “I bow with great deference to your superior knowledge in this matter as in all others, Lord J”.

    Btw, your own blog must be feeling terribly neglected…

  8. Roger says:

    Matthew 1
    1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

    Christ and the Abrahamic Covenant the the fulfilment of the Old Covenant with the New Testament.
    Its worth taking the time and trouble to understand this and as the Church has always taught from the times of the Apostles because it will in these times help to reveal the work of Iniquity.

    Matthew 23
    28 So you also outwardly indeed appear to men just; but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

    Christ has come in the Flesh and any religion, belief that denies this does not come from God.

    1 John 4
    2 By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God:

    The author correctly understands “.. The complete “metanoia” – the turning of one’s self back to the Lord, the turning away from the world, the flesh and the devil; the renunciation of self; the stripping away of faults; the single-minded pursuit of holiness. ..”

    I am not seeing any Evangelisation of pagans, schismatics, jews, atheists from Rome since 1958. On the contrary they are being encouraged to stay within their errors.

    This lack of Charity towards our separated brethen leaves them outside of Salvation.

    Charity has grown cold in Rome because of the iniquity in the Curia.

    Matthew 24
    12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.

    I believe we are already seeing evidence of God’s anathema on Babel (the confusion of tongues).

  9. ginnyfree says:

    Jabba, you missed this one? “What do you do if you think you have a vocation to religious life and all the world is busy groaning to find itself Bergoglian?”

    The whole world Bergolian? I find this comment particularly disconcerting. Hello? Faithfulness to the Holy Father, Pope Francis in particular, an act AGAINST the faith? Yeah. Okay. Next.

    You’re right Jabba. They are sedevacantist in their hearts. We do not decide which Pope we will accept and which we won’t. There is only one Bishop of Rome, one Vicar of Christ, one Holy Father and it is this office we are loyal to, not the person occupying it. The Church is not a democracy. We don’t decide to obey only those Popes we like. This is a Protestant notion common among the church-hopping non-denominationals who regularly bounce around from place to place, especially when the pastor in one place preaches for or against something they don’t agree with yet they will be the first ones to claim loyalty to Christ. But they contain a lesson some here could benefit from learning. Agree or disagree, you still are obedient and faithful to Christ by being obedient and faithful to His Vicar, the Pope. He represents Christ in a singularly unique way and to ignore or defy this breaks Communion with God Himself. In short, our of communion with the Pope, out of Communion with God.

    Bergolian indeed! They inch away from God a few rude comments at a time. May they soon see the error of their ways and return to the one Way that is Christ.

    God bless. Ginnyfree.

  10. JabbaPapa says:

    How’s this for an application of your latest lesson?

    “I bow with great deference to your superior knowledge in this matter as in all others, Lord J”.

    Btw, your own blog must be feeling terribly neglected…

    I’d suggest that you’d do well to refrain from ad hominem attacks against anyone at all.

  11. JabbaPapa says:

    We don’t decide to obey only those Popes we like. This is a Protestant notion

    Yep.

  12. Toad says:

    Are we supposed to “like” Popes? Like we do Poodles, Pugs, or Pomeranians?

  13. JabbaPapa says:

    Here’s the Enemy : http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/wikileaks-hillary-clinton-campaign-plots-revolution-in-catholic-church

    To fight the Roman Pontiff on the basis of mere supposition is to turn one’s back upon Satan slipping in under the door …

  14. mmvc says:

    ad hominem attacks?

    Nope. Just having a bit of fun with your tutorial on sarcasm. 😉

  15. Roger says:

    Luke 4
    28 And all they in the synagogue, hearing these things, were filled with anger.
    29 And they rose up and thrust him out of the city; and they brought him to the brow of the hill, whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

    Acts Of Apostles 6
    9 Now there arose some of that which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them that were of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen

    Acts Of Apostles 7
    57 And casting him forth without the city, they stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man, whose name was Saul.
    58 And they stoned Stephen, invoking, and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
    59 And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying: Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep in the Lord. And Saul was consenting to his death.

    Rabbi David Rosen
    “we’ve reached a new height with Pope Francis.”
    “There’s never been a Pope in history, probably since the first, since Peter, who knew the Jewish community as well as this Pope has done in his own adulthood,” he said, noting how as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, then-Cardinal Bergoglio often visited synagogues and Jewish celebrations.
    So when it comes to Pope Francis, “we’re not dealing with someone who just understands cognitively or even in his heart that this has to be done.”
    Francis, Rosen said, is somebody who understands the Jewish reality “in his core…and has engaged with it. And that’s very definitely a new, significant stage in the wonderful transformation of our relationship.”

    We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked, for “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29). The Church, which shares with Jews an important part of the sacred Scriptures, looks upon the people of the covenant and their faith as one of the sacred roots of her own Christian identity (cf. Rom 11:16-18). As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God (cf. 1 Thes 1:9). With them, we believe in the one God who acts in history, and with them we accept his revealed word. (Evangelii Gaudium, no. 247)

    Problem
    The doctrine of the supersession of the Old Testament by the New is a universal and perpetual doctrine of the Catholic Church. It is a defined article of the Catholic Faith. The solemn Profession of Faith of the Ecumenical Council of Florence under Pope Eugene IV, says the following:

    “The sacrosanct Roman Church … firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after Our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; … All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it (the Roman Church) declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.”

    [The Moderator – Roger, please take this line of argument no further.]

  16. GC says:

    The world’s last beguine has passed away

    Marcella Pattyn (born 1920 in the Belgian Congo) entered a beguinage in Flanders and died there in 2013. She had had very limited vision since her childhood and so, apparently, was not able to enter a religious congregation. But she played the organ, the accordion and the banjo, besides making laceworks and other handicraft type things, which she would have sold.

    Our Cole-Porterist, Toad, would know another kind of beguine.

  17. Roger says:

    Thank you GC for your wonderful example. Marcella Pattyn

  18. Roger says:

    Moderator when faced with scandal in high places and a clear affront to Our Lord and Our Lady then spiritual victim souls are necessary. I think that they actual Blog is excellent and correct in this time.

    Spiritual Sodom and Babel.
    With Sodom a small minority of JUST (beguine) would have saved that city . The correct and Catholic response to these Anti Christian Laws and governments and scandals within the Church is with small minorities doing prayer and penance to God and seeking their Neighbours Conversion and Salvation.

    Genesis has been attacked and vilified without mercy yet it has the answers to this Age.

    Genesis 18
    26 And the Lord said to him: If I find in Sodom fifty just within the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.

    Cain (the Eldest Son of Adam and Eve) and Abel (the Younger Son) and the materialism of the Cain’s off spring. With Abraham Ismael (Eldest) and Isaac (Youngest).

    Our Lord’s entry into Jerusalem Palm Sunday the ass (female Old Covenant) and her colt (New Testament)
    Luke 19
    30 Saying: Go into the town which is over against you, at your entering into which you shall find the colt of an ass tied, on which no man ever hath sitten: loose him, and bring him hither.
    John 12
    15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy king cometh, sitting on an ass’ s colt.

    The Danger in this time is to do what Lot’s wife did LOOK BACK at Sodom’s Destruction. Instead eyes should be to Heaven and looking forward to the promised Triumph of the Immaculate. The greatest Charity is Prayer and Reparation to God and seeking the Conversion and Salvation of Our Neighbour.

  19. mmvc says:

    ‘In the long history of the Church’s many crises, God has shown us how He expects us to answer attacks on the Faith. And, in case we had failed to get the message, Our Lady has come to spell it out plainly: Prayer. Penance. Sacrifice. The spiritual war must be fought with spiritual weapons. The complete “metanoia” – the turning of one’s self back to the Lord, the turning away from the world, the flesh and the devil; the renunciation of self; the stripping away of faults; the single-minded pursuit of holiness.’

    So true.

  20. ginnyfree says:

    Not to be a real Gadfly MMVC, but if you agree with this, as you state:”The complete “metanoia” – the turning of one’s self back to the Lord, the turning away from the world, the flesh and the devil; the renunciation of self; the stripping away of faults; the single-minded pursuit of holiness.’

    So true.” then why is it you made fun of the words of the Church’s Doctor of Moral Theology and refuse to cook for Sunday on Saturday thusly showing how boldly you toss aside a Commandment of the Lord? Perhaps you still await your own metanoia. I should remain patient with those in error. It is the flesh that you feed with your wonderful Sunday dinners and the ego at showing off your latest recipe. Then your pride conspires against you as you assure yourself that love for family is the “charity” that saves you from admitting a breach of the Commandment to do no work on Sunday. I should also mention the very bad example this all sets for those young women and girls around you who see first hand how the Commandment doesn’t apply to moms everywhere because they love their families. I will add this proves that some do indeed love themselves and their families MORE than they love God for they cannot seem to figure out a way to keep the Commandment. ya know what? You can bet your bottom dollar that the Queen of Heaven made sure provision was made for the Sabbath day’s rest the day before. The Israelites were told by Moses in the desert to gather a double day’s portion of the Manna so as to rest on the Sabbath. They obeyed. Why can’t you learn from them?

    God bless. Ginnyfree.

  21. ginnyfree says:

    I forgot one little detail: The godly spouse works to help his soulmate to obtain Heaven. The head of the household is to be Christ to those in his household. That means helping his wife in the kitchen so as to prevent any breach of the Commandment by her. If he sees the Commandment being neglected, then he is responsible before God to stop it. If he sits back and refuses to help his wife, then he is as guilty of mortal sin as the employer who forces his employees to work on Sunday or lose their jobs or face other penalties or the shopkeeper who refuses to close his doors on Sunday. The husband who has been sure he hasn’t broken the Commandment to rest on Sundays who hasn’t lifted one finger to relieve the burdens on his spouse, the mother of his children can very well be guilty of a mortal sin regarding this Commandment. The men aren’t automatically off the hook by virtue of being just the dad. Hello? There is much more required of his who has much.

    Metanoia indeed. Time for a few good Confessions I’m bettin.
    God bless. Ginnyfree

  22. Roger says:

    Ginny

    Traps were set for Our Lord over the sabbath day!

    Mark 3
    2 And they watched him whether he would heal on the sabbath days; that they might accuse him.

    Luke 6
    7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched if he would heal on the sabbath; that they might find an accusation against him.

    Luke 14
    3 And Jesus answering, spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying: Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?

  23. ginnyfree says:

    Yes, Roger, I heard the Word when I went to Mass and Communion this morning. In particular this: “Woe to you, scholars of the law! You have taken away the key of knowledge.
    You yourselves did not enter and you stopped those trying to enter.” This is exactly the M.O. of the average sedevacantist. They study all things in Canon Law so as to appear to be legitimately distancing themselves from those NO adherents who are blissfully unaware of the “dire consequences” said sedevacantists seem to know so much about. They use their knowledge to attempt to get others to leave behind the sure norms of the Latin Rite in search of a type of holiness that really is only a white washed tomb full of dead men’s bones. They do truly try to stop the rest of us from entering into the Kingdom via the NO. They constantly sow seeds of dissent and distrust among the faithful who’ve been witness to more than one liturgical abuse and are seeking a way to free themselves from the lack of holiness around themselves. The average sedevacantist will misuse such messes to proclaim a false gospel against the Latin Rite and those who attend it religiously, loyally and with the trust of the innocence it brings to those who go seeking Him who is the source and the summit of our Catholic faith in such rites. He is there, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, whole and entire no matter if the sins of the priest presiding be damnable scarlet. He is faithful when we are not. Many have fallen prey to the lies of such persons who do indeed, consider themselves more holy than the Pope because they confine themselves to a few places where hatred for the Mass is fomented and fostered. The average sedevacantist promises a holiness that cannot be had in a place that deliberately cuts itself off from the head of the Church and claims to be the sole determinate of what makes for holiness revealing to all with eyes to see that they judge any and all who come to their attention. No one who deliberately removes him or herself from subjection to the Holy Father and all the Bishops in communion with him is also cut off completely from the Head and the members of the rest of the Church, suffering in Purgatory, militant on earth and most sadly triumphant in Heaven. This includes our dear Blessed Mother, Mary Most Holy of us all. What else would you call it when persons publish an article convicting the Holy Father of heresy for all to see and recommend to the faithful to not listen to him but attempting to stop other from entering as Christ Himself said in today’s Gospel? Canon 1373 applies. It goes like this: “Can. 1373 A person who publicly incites among subjects animosities or hatred against the Apostolic See or an ordinary because of some act of power or ecclesiastical ministry or provokes subjects to disobey them is to be punished by an interdict or other just penalties.” http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P53.HTM Read carefully the phrase “or provokes subjects to disobey them.” That is just about the sole apostolate here at CP&S if you could call it an apostolate at all. Personally I think that a most perverse use of the word, IMHO. Yeah. The shoes fit. 1373 applies. I can only pray that those who will repent see this before the fitting justice needed is applied.
    One quick question Roger. Do you think the Queen of Heaven would ever recommend anyone to disobey the Church, the Holy Father, or any of her Bishops? Don’t take too long to answer. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  24. ginnyfree says:

    P.S. Roger, what part of deliberate disobedience do you see as a healing? I’m just curious how you equate your personal position of protest against the NO and the rest of us is in anyway a healing brought about by Christ. Help me see the connection between the Scriptures you’ve quoted and the acts being recommended by the last few threads here. Maybe its just me. I dunno. I could be missing something, so just help me out a bit. Okay? God bless. Ginnyfree.

  25. Roger says:

    Ginny

    Actually you are trying to impose Jewish and Puritan Protestant Laws on the New Testament.
    I dread to think what a family of 9 children and their parents are supposed to do under your thinking!
    The Old Sabbath isn’t Sunday its the Saturday. The Christian law to abstain from servile work arose as a protection to the right to worship.

    “..
    In the Christian Church, we find that its practice marks a complete break with the Old Testament. In the first place, the seventh day of the week, the Sabbath, is no longer observed. The seventh day of the week is Saturday, and it has been reduced to the same level as Friday or Thursday. One day in the week, it is true, is kept holy, but it is the first day, not the seventh. Sunday has supplanted Saturday. The Lord’s day, as it is called, has taken the place of the Sabbath.
    Secondly, Sunday is primarily a day of prayer, not a day of rest. Servile work is forbidden on that day, but it is forbidden in order to allow the Christian leisure to attend divine service. In the Old Testament divine service followed as a consequence of the leisure granted by the Sabbath. In the new dispensation, rest from work follows as a consequence of the necessity of attending church on the Lord’s day.
    ..”
    “..THE PURITAN SABBATH.
    There is, therefore, a clear distinction between the Jewish Sabbath and the Christian Sunday. The early Protestants recognised this distinction. In England, the first attempt to confound the two was made by Dr. Nicholas Bownd, of Norton, in Suffolk. The Westminster Confession of 1647 was the first creed which held that the Jewish method of observing the Sabbath was binding on Christians. Everyone knows how this opinion was carried by the Puritans to America. In New England, the prescriptions laid down by Moses became part of the law of the land.
    But while the Puritans thus restored the Jewish method of observing the Sabbath, they did not restore the Sabbath itself. They still continued to keep the first day of the week instead of the seventh. in England the principle was pushed to its logical conclusion by the Seventh Day Baptists. They were organised in America in 1671, at Newport. R.I., but they have not spread. At present they number about 10,000 communicants. The Seventh Day Adventists are an outcome of the Adventist movement. This was begun in 1831, by one William Miller, who predicted the end of the world, first for 1843, and then for 1844. When this date passed, the Adventists split into various bodies, one of which, organised in New Hampshire in 1844, declared that it was necessary to observe Saturday instead of Sunday, and that other Protestants were merely doing the will of Rome by keeping the first day of the week. Besides the Adventists and Seventh Day Baptists, the ‘Church of God follows the same rule. This sect is a branch of the Seventh Day Adventists, which originated about 1864. It differs from the parent sect on such questions as health reform, abstaining from swine’s flesh, and the like.
    ..”
    “..
    THE OBSERVANCE OF SUNDAY.
    In the beginning Sunday used to be reckoned from evening to evening. It was not until about the eleventh or twelfth century that the present custom came into vogue. The faithful were bound to assist at all the public prayers of the day, including Mass and what is known as Matins and Vespers. Practically the whole day was given up to prayer. This was the chief difference between the Sabbath and Sunday. The Sabbath was a day of rest; Sunday was a day of prayer. The Christian law to abstain from servile work arose as a protection to the right to worship.
    ..”
    Nihil Obstat: J. Donovan,
    Censor Theol. Deputatus
    Imprimatur:
    @ D Mannix, Archiepiscopus Melbournensis
    1932

  26. ginnyfree says:

    Let’s see. Roger thinks that because Ginny mentions the FACT that Mary observed the Sabbath day of rest from all servile works, (along with Jesus and St. Joseph I might add) she is speaking as a Protestant when she mentions the Commandment of God to keep holy the Lord’s day. Then he digs up some sloppy scholarship to try and prove that: “The Westminster Confession of 1647 was the first creed which held that the Jewish method of observing the Sabbath was binding on Christians.” Do you mean to twist my words about the observance of the Mother of God, who was a Jewess BTW, to mean that by observing a day of rest from all labor with my stress on Sunday’s dinner being prepared on Saturday which BTW is still the Jewish Sabbath whereby I break their observances but also the Puritan’s you claim called Saturday their Sunday or whatever it is you’re trying to claim by your rambling style of theology which is much like an octopus’ squirt of cloudy black ink in the water used to obscure the direction of his exit and out of danger. Are you actually trying to twist all this to mean those who rest from labor on Sunday’s are somehow either Jews or Protestants? Perhaps you should suggest all red-blooded Catholics should cut the lawn and do 5 loads of laundry each Sunday thus proving to the world they are neither Jews or Puritan Pilgrims progressing on their merry way to Hell? Maybe you are suggesting work on Sunday proves one Catholic. I’d laugh but there are those who would take you at your word and attempt to prove they aren’t Puritans or Jews and do work on Sunday to make someone like you approve. Roger you are a danger to the weak in faith. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  27. ginnyfree says:

    Oh and much like the ink used by the octopus, Roger has forgotten/refused to answer my question regarding his equating healing on a Sabbath by Jesus with the sowing of revolt by certain persons who accuse the currently reigning Holy Father, Pope Francis with heresy and tell the faithful not to listen to him because of this thus breaking Canon 1373 of the current code. Just sayin’…………

  28. Roger says:

    Ginny

    Our Lady and St Joseph and Our Lord lived under the Old Dispensation until this was abolished by Our Lord’s Sacrifice on the Cross. Understand this included the Rite’s and Rituals sic The Purification in the Temple, Circumcision, the Passover etc.. All gone. All finished.
    The Holy Family fulfilled the Old Law until this was abolished by Our Lord.

    A New Testament , replacing forever the Old which was abolished 2000 years ago. A new priesthood, the sacraments, the perpetual sacrifice, the opening of Heaven.

    John 18
    36 Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence.

    I remind you of what Our Lord said to Peter.
    Mark 8
    33 Who turning about and seeing his disciples, threatened Peter, saying: Go behind me, Satan, because thou savorest not the things that are of God, but that are of men.

    Matthew 16
    23 Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men.

    James 4
    4 Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God.

  29. ginnyfree says:

    But Roger, all 10 Commandments are still in effect. Which one do you think is optional since Christ’s death on the Cross? I’ll await your answer. Please don’t just spill ink like an octopus, evading a straight answer. Actually answer my questions simply, clearly and honestly. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  30. Roger says:

    Ginny

    Catholic Traditional Catechetical Formula
    The Ten Commandments

    1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
    2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
    3. Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day.
    4. Honor your father and your mother.
    5. You shall not kill.
    6. You shall not commit adultery.
    7. You shall not steal.
    8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
    10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

    The Lord’s Day is the Day of His Resurrection from the Dead

    Council of Laodicea (4th century AD) Canon 29 specifically refers to the sabbath:
    Christians must not judaize by resting on the [Jewish] Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ

    Matthew 22
    35 And one of them, a doctor of the law, asking him, tempting him:
    36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
    37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
    38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
    39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

  31. Roger says:

    Ginny I have already given you the Catholic Observance Of Sunday. The difference between the Mosaic version under the Old Covenant and that of the Church where the Sabbath is replaced by the Lord’s Day. Your opinion is that of Caesarius of Arles (see below) This was REPROBATED by the Council of Orleans

    I repeat this here.
    “..
    THE OBSERVANCE OF SUNDAY.
    In the beginning Sunday used to be reckoned from evening to evening. It was not until about the eleventh or twelfth century that the present custom came into vogue. The faithful were bound to assist at all the public prayers of the day, including Mass and what is known as Matins and Vespers. Practically the whole day was given up to prayer. This was the chief difference between the Sabbath and Sunday. The Sabbath was a day of rest; Sunday was a day of prayer. The Christian law to abstain from servile work arose as a protection to the right to worship.
    ..”

    In the sixth century, Caesarius of Arles taught that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to Sunday and that Christians must keep Sunday in the same way as the Jews were commanded to keep the Sabbath.

    The Council of Orléans in 538 REPROBATED this tendency, to apply the law of the Jewish Sabbath to the observance of the Christian Sunday, as Jewish and non-Christian.

    The Church leaders of later centuries inscribed Sunday rest into official Church teaching, and Christian governments have attempted to enforce the Sunday rest throughout history.
    For Catholics, Jesus’ teaching that “THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, NOT MAN FOR THE SABBATH” means that good works “WHEN THE NEEDS OF OTHERS DEMAND IT” can be part of the day of rest.
    The Catechism offers guidelines on how to observe the Lord’s Day, which include attending Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation. On these days, Catholics may not work or do activities that “HINDER THE WORSHIP DUE TO GOD”, but “PERFORMANCE OF THE WORKS OF MERCY, AND APPROPRIATE RELAXATION IN A SPIRIT OF JOY” are permitted.

  32. ginnyfree says:

    The octopus squirts his ink but fools not the shark. Not once has anyone but you flipped the Lord’s day BACK TO SATURDAY, in order to evade the real questions I’ve asked you. You are the only one here who has suggested keeping Saturday as a Sabbath. You, no one else. Thou shalt not bear false witness; I see you recognize this as Commandment #8. You should be mindful of it.

    Let’s just pick out a few of your errors:
    roger: “The Holy Family fulfilled the Old Law until this was abolished by Our Lord.”
    Ginny: all prophecy is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, not anyone else even the blessed Virgin and St. Joseph. They are most certainly predestinate souls as were many persons, but they do not fulfill any prophecy. Mt. 5:17-20 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” And to teach men to break them is also an indicator of the origins and authority contained in Canon 1373 BTW.
    Roger, ever hear of Marcionism? It has interesting features including a natural abhorrence towards all things found in the Old Testament by its adherents. But we know that couldn’t mean you in particular, could it. Just because you seem to think all of the Old Testament was abolished by Christ and should be discarded or at least treated as if it is somehow no longer valid for instruction or edification, etc. doesn’t mean you’ve totally fallen for the particular heresy. You do resemble some of its features. Here is just a sample of his testimony to his folly found at New Advent: “Marcion was no Gnostic dreamer. He wanted a Christianity untrammeled and undefiled by association with Judaism. Christianity was the New Covenant pure and simple. Abstract questions on the origin of evil or on the essence of the Godhead interested him little, but the Old Testament was a scandal to the faithful and a stumbling-block to the refined and intellectual gentiles by its crudity and cruelty, and the Old Testament had to be set aside.” http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm You seem to be right in step with him Roger. Note the way in which Marcion needed all to set aside the Old Testament. Sound like anything you’ve suggested and defended here today?
    And your “defenses” in the form of too much octopus ink are to evade answering this question: why are you “equating healing on a Sabbath by Jesus with the sowing of revolt by certain persons who accuse the currently reigning Holy Father, Pope Francis with heresy and tell the faithful not to listen to him because of this thus breaking Canon 1373 of the current code.” I simply want to know how you see rejection of our Holy Father as a healing by Jesus. Really. Where is the connection? I’ll answer for you – there really isn’t any, but it is part of the predictability of an octopus; cloud the waters with much ink in the hopes that we will loose sight of the facts: you support rejection of the Holy Father, amongst other errors, that one will do. It’s big enough to loose one’s state of grace. Hello? You can spout all the doctrine you want, but your ink won’t hide your errors. You just keep making more. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  33. ginnyfree says:

    Roger, here is exactly what I said: “You can bet your bottom dollar that the Queen of Heaven made sure provision was made for the Sabbath day’s rest the day before. The Israelites were told by Moses in the desert to gather a double day’s portion of the Manna so as to rest on the Sabbath.” There is no instruction there to set aside our Sunday’s worship and keep the Sabbath of the Jews. That is as I’ve already stated, bearing false witness. Or in plain English, you are lying about what I said and what I meant. You’re breaking the 8th Commandment to defend defecting from the Church and breaking another Commandment, that of doing no work on Sunday. What are you suggesting about Mary or Moses that is wrong? You shouldn’t as I’ve pointed out this could smack of Marcionism if you do. But you aren’t the only Traditionalist/SSPX/Sedevacantist who actually follows this heresy in many ways. OOOOOPS. Nuthin’ new under the sun saith Qoheleth; vanity Roger, vanity. All your defenses are vanity.

    Here’s a cute bit of octo ink: “The Catechism offers guidelines on how to observe the Lord’s Day, which include attending Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation.” I quoted from the Catechism of the Council of Trent, which is still in force. Would you care to suggest it too is somehow abrogated? Go for Octo-Roger. I’m sure you’ve got plenty of ink to spill. Why do waste time repeating what I already said as if no one read anything else or that it was never said before? Octo ink! Before you spill anymore though, you really should go back and read the excerpt from the little lesson I gave. It is 100% Catholic teaching from sources you should agree with. None of it is merely my opinion which according to you “is that of Caesarius of Arles” I quoted the Church’s Doctor of Moral Theology, St. Alphonsus Ligouri. Hello? Two different men. Why do you lie about that? Breaking the 8th Commandment again. Saying something is so doesn’t make it so. Roger, give up.

    God bless. Ginnyfree.

    [The Moderator – We have had enough of your spiteful mockery aimed at fellow-commenter, Roger. In your attempt to win the argument you are falling for the far greater error of vicious slander.]

  34. Roger says:

    Ginny
    Our Lord himself prepared Food to eat on the Sabbath and the Pharisees like you said this was a SIN (unlawful)

    Matthew 12
    1 At that time Jesus went through the corn on the sabbath: and his disciples being hungry, began to pluck the ears, and to eat. 2 And the Pharisees seeing them, said to him: Behold thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days..

    Pope Pius XII MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI 29th June 1943
    “.. by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; ..”

    29. And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area – He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the House of Israel [30] – the Law and the Gospel were together in force; [31] but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees [32] fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, [33] establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race.[34] “To such an extent, then,” says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, “was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from the many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as Our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.” [35]

    30. On the Cross then the Old Law died, soon to be buried and to be a bearer of death, [36] in order to give way to the New Testament of which Christ had chosen the Apostles as qualified ministers; [37] and although He had been constituted the Head of the whole human family in the womb of the Blessed Virgin, it is by the power of the Cross that our Savior exercises fully the office itself of Head of His Church. “For it was through His triumph on the Cross,” according to the teaching of the Angelic and Common Doctor, “that He won power and dominion over the gentiles”;[38] by that same victory He increased the immense treasure of graces, which, as He reigns in glory in heaven, He lavishes continually on His mortal members; it was by His blood shed on the Cross that God’s anger was averted and that all the heavenly gifts, especially the spiritual graces of the New and Eternal Testament, could then flow from the fountains of our Savior for the salvation of men, of the faithful above all; it was on the tree of the Cross, finally, that He entered into possession of His Church, that is, of all the members of His Mystical Body; for they would not have been untied to this Mystical Body through the waters of Baptism except by the salutary virtue of the Cross, by which they had been already brought under the complete sway of Christ.

    This binds His Successors.

  35. Toad says:

    “..Or in plain English, you are lying about what I said and what I meant. “
    I’m sure most of us regard the whole Sinful Sunday Lunch business as unutterably silly – but to call Roger a liar – because he doesn’t share your opinions – is going too far, Ginster.
    It isn’t Christian. It is arrogant, presumptuous, and, I would have thought – sinful. But what do I know? And does CP&S have no moderators to crack down on this sort of libel?

  36. ginnyfree says:

    Actually Toad, I am defending myself as well as the Church’s teaching on certain issues. I simply pointed out exactly what I said, which I will repeat here, “You can bet your bottom dollar that the Queen of Heaven made sure provision was made for the Sabbath day’s rest the day before. The Israelites were told by Moses in the desert to gather a double day’s portion of the Manna so as to rest on the Sabbath.”
    Roger claimed I’d stated something heretical. That is a lie. He took it way too far. He claimed I said Catholics are to keep the Jewish Sabbath. That is patently false, or in plain English a lie. His claims took on a mind of their own and represented themselves in several equally false accusations here is a public place. Here is just one of his lies: “Actually you are trying to impose Jewish and Puritan Protestant Laws on the New Testament.” and that is his response to my quoting a teaching of the Church’s Doctor of Moral Theology regarding work done on Sunday being sinful, either mortally or venially, but sinful just the same. Here is another lie about me told by Roger: “Your opinion is that of Caesarius of Arles.” So instead of commenting on St. Alphonsus Ligouri who I correctly quoted, he claims I’ve gleaned an “opinion” from some whack job. A bold faced lie. Here is the error he tried to claim is in my little lesson plan: “In the sixth century, Caesarius of Arles taught that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to Sunday and that Christians must keep Sunday in the same way as the Jews were commanded to keep the Sabbath.” It isn’t there, so that makes his words a slander against not only me, but the lesson itself which contains much valuable Church teaching. Hello? What else should I call these lies and slanders and attacks? Yet that is exactly what they are. His hope is I will go silent and then he can spew against me unabated for at least a 1,000 more words because no one here will attempt to prove him wrong, except maybe Jabba who can’t sit still long for error-laden rants either.

    What? No errors? Oh please. Here is his heretical statement about the Old Testament that is pure Marcionism: “A New Testament , replacing forever the Old which was abolished 2000 years ago.” This is the very heart of that heresy, a complete disregard for all things contained in the Old Testament. Pure heresy and Roger said it. This is one example of Roger’s many, many errors. He does well with cut and paste, but beyond that, most of what he says is full of holes and if you point them out, he will never admit even one. Marcionism is a very serious heresy and Roger’s position contains much that can be attributed, correctly I might add, to that particular heresy. So, Toad, what would you call that spade? A heart or a club? God bless. Ginnyfree.

  37. ginnyfree says:

    Dear Moderator, Here is the warning you gave me:”The Moderator – We have had enough of your spiteful mockery aimed at fellow-commenter, Roger. In your attempt to win the argument you are falling for the far greater error of vicious slander.” Yet it is Roger who falsely accused me of having an “opinion” the same as one Caesarius of Arles which is a bold faced lie. But don’t take my word for it, here is exactly what he said: “Your opinion is that of Caesarius of Arles (see below) This was REPROBATED by the Council of Orleans……In the sixth century, Caesarius of Arles taught that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to Sunday and that Christians must keep Sunday in the same way as the Jews were commanded to keep the Sabbath.” That is what he said, not me. Why is this slanderous lie against me and the actual Church teaching I presented permitted yet I’m supposedly in the wrong for responding with the truth about what he said? If you want to consider me defending myself “vicious slander” and Roger’s bold faced lies nothing, that is on you, but as I’ve already stated, saying something is so doesn’t make it so. The Truth is a changeless person and those who speak the truth reflect its origin, Jesus Christ. those who lie work against him and as he himself said, the truth is not in them. God bless. Ginnyfree

    [The Moderator – It’s no good using Gospel passages to support your claims to then go and disobey others. Using ad hominems against another was fiercely condemned by the Blessed Saviour. Please change your angry way of expressing yourself or you will be put into pre-moderation.]

  38. Toad says:

    “Roger claimed I’d stated something heretical. That is a lie.”
    If Roger did, Ginny – it’s because he honestly believed that that you had done so.
    He may be wrong. I don’t know, or care, myself.
    But it was not a lie on his part, I’m sure of that. Roger does not lie*.
    He (in my opinion) gets a great many things absurdly wrong. So do you. So does everyone, for all we know. We certainly all misunderstand one another a great deal of the time.
    But that does not necessarily make us liars .

    *(Nor does Toad. Unless he has no alternative, of course.)

  39. johnhenrycn says:

    Well, I like Gin (Shaken, Not Stirred) as much as I do Roger and Jabba (although I’m glad never to have sat through Ginny”s RCIA lecture on Sunday Dinners) in proof of which I offer this delightful Catholic YouTube from Ginny’s home state of Tennessee, that will even make John Kehoe want to pull out his catheter and start stomping around his bedsit:

  40. GC says:

    johnhenry,

  41. johnhenrycn says:

    Dear GC: Did you catch the opening lyric where the Chanteuse tells us not to forget our penis?

  42. johnhenrycn says:

    Did we ever think there would be a day when we’d have to fight Catholics to protect life?

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