“President Trump’s Policy Isn’t About Religion: (it’s about the association of certain countries with terrorism)”


There was a timely post on Father Z’s blog a few days ago dealing with the dispute of President Trump’s newly-signed restrictions on mass immigration of citizens coming from seven Islamic nations into the States, and the ongoing furore the liberal crowds (that include many homegrown Muslims, both here and abroad) are making about this. It was being asked whether this is a political or a religious question. Fr Z happened to be at Denver airport where (he says):

Outside the doors of the international arrivals area, but inside the terminal, there were, I am no making this up, Quakers and Muslims with anti-Trump, pro-Islam signs.

As far as I can tell from my reading, Pres. Trump’s (I want to repeat that for the Fishwrap – PRESIDENT Trump’s) policy isn’t about religion. It’s about the association of certain countries with terrorism.

Couldn’t be clearer! Fr Z goes on to link to some of the threats Americans would be exposing themselves to in opening the doors wide to Muslim (so-called) refugees, with a few examples of typical every day Islamic atrocities. Allowing all and sundry to flood into the U.S., even if only a small percentage of these migrants have had contact with Islamic extremist positions, would be ultimately suicidal. (Another fact to bear in mind is, the most genuine cases of refugee asylum seekers would undoubtedly be the Christians fleeing majority Muslim countries who are being doubly persecuted!)


Do these anti-Trump demonstrators have any real idea what they are screaming for? In a Pollyanna notion that they are defending democratic ideals where people of all ideologies can live in perfect harmony, these (N.B.) violent protesters are calling for an unrestricted invasion of members of the most intolerant of the human race. Even the secular media often reluctantly reports on the unremitting Christian genocide taking place in many parts of the world today. Is this what the ‘Pollyanna’ demonstrators want to import into the West? Have the dozens of vicious terrorist attacks committed in Western nations, just in this century alone, that have caused the death or horrific injuries to thousands of innocent victims, not taught us anything?

There was a frank and most perceptive comment on this post of Father Z from someone with the moniker of, YoungLatinMassGuy. Due to the tendency of comments getting overlooked and (in the case of Fr Z’s blog) buried under such a profusion of them, we shall reprint it here in full for our readers:

“If this is about religion… FANTASTIC!!!

Let’s make this about religion!!! I’m ready to go on TV right now and make the case against muhammed, and the fake death-cult he founded, islam!

NOTA BENE I do not care about muslims. One muslim can be and is totally different from the next. One muslim can be the nicest, kindest human being you’ll ever meet and would be horrified if they were faced with the truth of muhammed, and another muslim can be raping his newly-purchased Yazidid sex-slave, and know exactly what muhammed taught and be 100% okay with those teachings. My criticisms are only with the religion of islam, which is a philosophical system, and muhammed, an historical figure and the founder of islam, both of which are not classified as a “race” and both of which are open to criticism, and criticism of both does not make me a racist, anymore than me criticizing the Katana Sword from Japan makes me a racist against all Japanese people.

Here are some reasons to ban islam from America:

1. muhammed is “the perfect man” in islam, “Al-Ins?n al-K?mil.” The argument “muhammed was a man of his time and not everything he did is applicable for today.” does not work. muhammed’s example is the gold standard for islam and muslim behavior ordained by allah himself, and is therefore open to criticism, along with the doctrines of his religion.

2. muhammed had sex with a nine year old girl, Aisha.

3. muhammed had up to 800 men and boys who had surrendered beheaded.

4. muhmmed raped his sex-slaves and allowed his thugs to do likewise.

5. muhammed tortured the men of those sex-slaves to death.

6. muhammed is quoted as saying: “I have been made victorious through terror.”

7. muhammed ordered the executions of gay and lesbian people.

8. muhammed had his critics assassinated.

9. In islam, non-muslims, kafir (Arabic plural: kafirun) are semi-slaves, the lowest thing in creation quran: 37:18, 33:60, 23:97.

10. In the quran us kafirs are to be mocked (quran 83:34).

11. In the quran us kafirs can be beheaded (quran 47:4).

12. In the quran us kafirs can be terrorized (quran 8:12).

13. muslims are not to take kafirs as friends (quran 3:28).

The points about the religion of islam and muhammed as well go on and on, and you get the drift. islam is totally opposed to the US Constitution and our entire way of life.”

But if any man have not care of his own, and specially his own household, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel” (1 Timothy 5:8).

We now hear that federal judge, James Robart, has overruled President Trump’s ban, and has given orders to allow migrants from the seven high-risk Muslim nations into the U.S. However, Trump vows to restore the suspended travel ban.

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52 Responses to “President Trump’s Policy Isn’t About Religion: (it’s about the association of certain countries with terrorism)”

  1. Yes, but if the American Muslim lobby can make religion the issue, their “useful idiots” on the left will all fall into line and more aggressively oppose Donald Trump on this matter.


  2. marysong says:

    Thanks Father Z and Catholicism Pure and Simple. Very clear. Father John O’Connor said that Mohammed was a forerunner of the anti christ. So what does that make of all his followers who live by the words of the Koran, in which Mohammed instructs his followers to propagate his religion “by the sword”? They are following the “gods of demons”. How are we to deal with that?

    We need another “fair wind” like the one that blew on Don Juan’s vessels in the sea of Lepanto.

    The Rosary solves all problems!


  3. johnhenrycn says:

    Lightning Deaths – USA – The Last Ten Years

    My point? The notion of thinking that the biggest threat Islam poses to non-Muslims is violence, possibly death, is incorrect. Long before Muslims in North America – or even in Europe – reach the critical mass needed to actually subjugate and kill non-Muslims wholesale, they – in concert with the equally horrible humanist/secularist crud we swim in – will have destroyed what’s left of our culture. Death will be a release.
    Not that I approve of suicide. The brother of a client killed himself on the Feast of the Presentation, Thursday last. From a Catholic family of 11 children. Only two Mass-going Catholics in the lot (the suicide was not one of them). What a family. 5 siblings hated 3 siblings. The other 3 stayed on the sidelines. I may write a “based on a true story” account of their Jarndyce v. Jarndyce legal battle someday. Nicer little earner it was for the six lawyers involved, and it’s not over yet.


  4. toadspittle says:

    Onward, Christian soldiers.


  5. johnhenrycn says:

    The comment immediately above this one should be removed, on account of sarcasm.


  6. johnhenrycn says:

    “Onward, Christian soldiers”“…says Toad.

    More to the grammatical – or perhaps literary – point: I used to be a member of the United Church Women (ex officio, mind) in my capacity as chief librarian of this little chapel located 150 metres from my front door. I stole a copy of The Hymnary they used there before I left. I now have to walk 450 metres to the One True Church parish I now attend, from which I have stolen a copy of the Catholic Book of Worship II, but which, sadly, does not include said hymn. Anyway, to the point: The authentic title of Sabine Baring-Gould’s famous hymn is Onward! Christian Soldiers, no matter what Wikipedia or Perry Como have to say.


  7. toadspittle says:

    Supposing (and it’s possible) the iRA started a bombing campaign again in England.
    Would we be happy to have an immediate ban on all Irish people entering the UK? Not a Catholic ban, we notice.
    What do you think, JH, Kathleen? What does anybody think?

    Yes, Islam is a rotten religion. They think the world is merely an annex to paradise – a vale of tears,to be endured, not enjoyed. And the sooner they depart Planet Earth the better, or so they think.
    And they believe they are doing the bidding of a vengeful God who punishes those who disobey His commands with eternal damnation.
    They also believe a lot of superstitious nonsense about demons (djinns) and angels.
    We’d be better off if all Muslims converted to secular atheism. Safer too.


  8. “7. muhammed ordered the executions of gay and lesbian people.” Can we assume that by including this, “YoungLatinMassGuy” is trying to tell us muhammed wasn’t all bad?


  9. toadspittle says:

    “7. Muhammed ordered the executions of gay and lesbian people.”
    ..A very wicked thing to do, as all Catholics will readily agree.
    No need for us to get involved. Best just leave it to God to send them all to Hell, where the swine belong.


  10. johnhenrycn says:

    Toad (06:05) – Not a complete inflexible ban, but increased and tighter security vetting of all people – not just Hibernians such as Kehoe – travelling from Ireland to the UK. I think this is what President Trump intends to do with people coming from those seven or so Middle East / African counties when things settle down a bit.


  11. The Raven says:

    It would help rather if the image and caption at the top of this story weren’t ‘fake news’: the image depicts a rally held by American Moslems to protest against Da’esh – source here.

    I am dismayed by the tone of the debate on Islam in the west. Most of the Syrians fleeing here were secular people fleeing away from Da’esh and from Trump’s friend, Mr Putin; our experience here in Europe is that the Syrian refugees find our ‘home-grown’ Moslems terrifying and extreme (by many accounts they are converting to Christianity in large numbers too).

    If we want to stamp out Islamism in the west, we should do our utmost to ease the path of assimilation for these communities and stamp out the racism, both personal and institutional, that they face here.

    You’ll always get nutters, in every community, but more people have been hurt by white supremacists and nativists in the UK and USA than have been harmed by Islamist fascists.

    And JohnHenry is right in pointing to the greatest threat that large-scale migration poses to ‘Western Civilisation’ – the threat to our culture, whatever fragments the post war era has left of it. (You might enjoy Michel Houellebecq’s book ‘Submission’, JH, although it is extremely vulgar.)


  12. toadspittle says:

    I’m absolutely with you on this Raven. We are in a minority of two on here, I reckon.

    “.And John Henry is right in pointing to the greatest threat that large-scale migration poses to ‘Western Civilisation’ – the threat to our culture, whatever fragments the post war era has left of it.”‘
    I can’t ‘prove” any of that, of course- or avnything else, come to that – but I agree, totally. Western “Civilisation” is absurdly horrible, and always has been – but, even then, it is probably slightly less horrible than “Eastern,” that is to say Muslim, “Civilisation.”
    Consign them both, as Hume said – to the flames.

    “You’ll always get nutters, in every community, but more people have been hurt by white supremacists and nativists in the UK and USA than have been harmed by Islamist fascists.
    Totally, and uncomfortably, true.
    Islamic fascists have killed vastly more Muslims than they have non-Mu/slims, and will go on doing so. And auto accidents kill vastly more human beings, Christian or Hindu,or whatever – than do the planet’s handful of fanatical religious maniacs – and always will.
    But nobody ever suggests banning cars. Naturally not. What an absurd idea!
    They are profitable!
    ...not just Hibernians such as Kehoe – travelling from Ireland to the UK.
    “Not just”? Who else,then?
    Toad, of course. But then he wouldn’t care.
    He hates going anywhere without his dogs, anyway. Hates it.


  13. Scarlett says:

    Toadspittle, I believe you’re right on.
    If I’m discerning the sarcasm correctly?
    Question — Mary,as in the Holy Mother, is mentioned far more times in the Koran than in the Bible.
    The Egyptian Coptics also revere her. (I hope I have all the correct spellings.)
    Is there something to be gleaned from this?


  14. toadspittle says:

    The fact that people are waving pictures of Trump (or, actually, the pope) to show how mu/ch they hate him – will now be shown on CP&S to demonstrate how much Catholics, and everybody – love him.
    Orwell will be laughing himself to death in his grave. Sort of.

    “Outside the doors of the international arrivals area, but inside the terminal, there were, I am no making this up, Quakers and Muslims with anti-Trump, pro-Islam signs.”
    I doubt very much if they were “pro-Muslim,” signs. But, even so, good for the Quakers. The most Christian of all Christians. In my estimation.
    Not that i agree with them


  15. J.P says:

    [The Moderator – First paragraph deleted.]

    There is no ban, and never was, against Irish nationals travelling to the United Kingdom or the United States to both of which I have been many times without any difficulty


  16. johnhenrycn says:

    More’s the pity, J.P. (or Kehoe or Keyhole) that you weren’t questioned closely by Immigration about your knowledge of the Catechism. If you’d landed in Canada like me grandad and ma did in 1924, you’d have been asked to recite the Lord’s Prayer. [The Moderator – JH, John is not given the same licence as you are to write on this site, and is often unable to respond to you for that reason. Out of charity, please moderate your teasing of him.]


  17. J.P says:

    Johnhenrycn@23:12 Whatever makes you think that I am unfamiliar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church ? I was born, baptized, and reared a Catholic. I practise the Catholic faith. I went to Catholic schools, for what that was worth, but did not acquire the skewed version of Catholicism which encourages judgmental attitudes towards others. Tell me, where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church does it oblige or encourage us to condemn gay people or to castigate divorced persons who remarry in civil ceremonies ? I cannot find any such instruction in my own well-used copy.
    I was never an immigrant to the United States, Canada (each of which I have visited several times) the UK, or elsewhere. But do be assured that being asked to recite the Lord’s Prayer would not really put me on the spot. I can recite it in four languages- even in French ,if necessary, to suit French-Canadian preference.


  18. kathleen says:

    Strange how those (like Toad), who admit to not even being a Catholic believer, and who couldn’t care less if there were an Islamic takeover of the West or not, spend hours filling our comment section with scornful mockery of all that the Catholic Church has brought to Western civilisation, and thus, the whole world! They say (sort of): “I’m alright mate, so the rest of the world can jolly well go to Hell”!

    What is much sadder and far more worrying (IMHO) is how good Catholics are also swallowing the P.C. blinkered view that mass immigration of Muslims into Europe and all other Western and initially Christian Nations poses no threat to our future.
    Even without the already-seen telltale signs, it clearly does, and anyone who denies this fact is (I believe) living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Yes, yes, yes, we all know, and probably have daily dealings with, kind law-abiding Muslims who it would be be unthinkable to imagine could turn to the violent mindset of an Islamic jihadist. This is quite evidently true, but that is not really the point. Islam is a religious AND political ideology, that has conquest and subjugation of all people to its creed at its heart, by any methods available to it (i.e., preaching, internal breeding faster than the natives, immigration), but also by war and conquest; IOW, by the sword. This latter inhuman method of spreading its doctrine is completely legitimate in Islam. Let us bear that in mind!

    This is what our great and holy Cardinal Raymond Burke has to say about the problem of mass Muslim immigration:

    “We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe — without swords, without guns, without conquest — will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades,” said late Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi in 2006. Virtually all Western politicians and prelates have refused to accept such pronouncements at face value, though, and instead strike politically correct tones. But this isn’t because they perceive the truth, says a top American cardinal, but because they’re too weak to accept it.

    “Muslims have as their ultimate goal conquest and power over the world,” said Cardinal Raymond Burke in an interview with Italian newspaper Il Giornale. In the interview, just reported by news outlet Breitbart on Saturday, Burke also warned that the West’s “supine” stance and moral corruption have made it “easy prey for conquest.”

    The 68-year-old cardinal, a former head of the Vatican’s supreme court and the current patron of the Order of Malta, also related how common Gadhafi’s 2006 sentiments are among Muslims, saying, “Several times I have heard Islamists explaining: ‘What we failed to do with weapons in the past, we are doing today with birth rate and immigration.’ The population is changing. If this keeps up, in countries like Italy, the majority will be Muslim.



  19. kathleen says:

    The Raven @ 19:34 yesterday

    It would help rather if the image and caption at the top of this story weren’t ‘fake news’

    I took the image from Father Z’s site. I was unaware that in this case it was “fake news”, just as Fr. Z clearly was when he put it up on his blog. Nevertheless, there have been pro-ISIS demonstrations in the West as we all know, waving their sinister flags, and ‘tolerated’ in our Western nations due to something under the headline of “freedom of speech”!
    (Mind-bogglingly scary to imagine what would happen to those taking part in even a peaceful Christian demonstration in Muslim-majority lands!)

    You’ll always get nutters, in every community, but more people have been hurt by white supremacists and nativists in the UK and USA than have been harmed by Islamist fascists.

    Have you any link to prove such a questionable statement as that?

    To be a “supremist” of an ideology due to the colour of one’s skin is just ridiculous! (We also witnessed plenty of “black supremist nutters” among the crowds at the “Black Lives Matter” demonstrations in the U.S. recently!) Besides, (mosty white) nominal “Christians” of the West are known as “blue-eyed Devils” by (mostly-brown) Islamic radicals!

    “Skin colour is no more than skin deep”, as any sane human being knows.


  20. The Raven says:


    I think that the caption to the image annoyed me most because it was the polar opposite of the truth. I am aware that there have been odd pockets of loonies flying Da’esh’s flag at demos, but there have been far larger demonstrations by Moslems against Da’esh in the UK and elsewhere in Europe.

    Here is a link on the position in the US: article.


  21. The Raven says:

    Hi Maryla,

    I had hoped that I’d made it clear from my comment that I really do think that there is a problem with integration in the UK; having lived in the inner-city for a good proportion of my adult life, I’m very aware of the issues. I just happen to think that the sort of thing being advocated by Trump demonises Moslems in a way that I find deeply troubling.


  22. mmvc says:

    Hi Raven. Watching Trevor Phillips’ documentary last April was a bit of an eye-opener for me. I’m also aware of disturbing accounts from Germany (many of them either not reported by the media or presented as ‘isolated cases’ involving ‘mentally unstable’ perpetrators) since the massive migrant influx into that country. Perhaps that is why I have some sympathies for Trump’s caution.


  23. toadspittle says:

    “Christians fleeing majority Muslim countries.. “
    …Only to be turned away by President Trump.


  24. johnhenrycn says:

    Moderator writes: ” Out of charity, please moderate your teasing…”
    Apologies, Mr Kehoe, but you’re such a braggart, and a supercilious one to boot, that I can’t help it when I see your avatar. I shall try, however, try to mind my Ps & Qs and to not hurt your feelings in future. I will add that your insinuations (11:15) about me condemning *gay* people and castigating remarried divorcées are of the “When did you stop beating your wife?” sort – question begging presuppositions – a type of logical fallacy that passes for intelligent repartee chez vous.


  25. johnhenrycn says:

    …but I will accept Kehoe criticism berating my firm conviction that Hollywood is run by Jews. It’s a fact, but a hurtful thing to say all the same. The truth shall set you free, Mr K. The bible tells me so.


  26. J.P. says:

    johnhenrycn@16:24 In what sense am I a braggart ? For simply saying that I can say the Lord’s Prayer in four languages in answer to your suggestion Feb 5@ 23:12 that I might have difficulty saying it in one ?
    Perhaps Hollywood is run by Jews for all I know as you claim@ 16:44 but, if so, what about it ?
    I don’t really need to be ‘set free’ from any neutral and harmless views I might have of Hollywood.
    My criticism of you is not of any views you may have of Hollywood, but of the derogatory manner in which you communicate your views on any comment I am allowed to make on this blog.

    [Moderator – No need to play the victim card J.P. (John Kehoe): the comments you churn out that never see the light of day here are aggressively critical and unchristian to other contributors (to one in particular) and often tiresomely self righteous.]


  27. johnhenrycn says:

    Here’s the thing, Mr Kehoe: You may not be a troll, but you are troll-ish. You never come here to endorse our Catholic commonality, but rather you come here, exclusively, to pronounce your superiority, your imagined deep insights. And admit it: you enjoy being the butt of my scorn because it’s a thrill when people pay attention to you.


  28. J.P. says:

    johnhenrycn@18.20. I am still mystified as to where, and in what manner, I have come to this blog as you allege to ‘pronounce ‘ my ‘superiority’.I don’t have any such superiority nor any reason to claim it. Nor ‘any deep insights’ for that matter.
    I was allowed to make comment when, quite unnecessarily, my name was dragged into this discussion by you on Feb 5 @19:22 in a discussion in which I had made no previous comment.
    I am glad at least that you admit to your efforts to make me the butt of your scorn. Hardly something to boast about. I do not seek the scorn you claim responsibility for, nor am I thrilled, anymore than you would be when making your own comments, if people care to pay attention to what I say.


  29. johnhenrycn says:

    Johnhenry says: “Hollywood is run by Jews.”

    Mr Kehoe says: “…what about it ?”

    So glad we agree (I think) that women cannot be priests or deacons.

    But there are intelligent Jews who have seen and admitted their disproportionate presence in Hollywood. Not that I really care one way or the other.


  30. kathleen says:

    The Raven @ 13:18

    Terrorism, from wherever it comes, is NEVER justified. It should surely be unnecessary to have to repeat that? The article you link to describes three main loony white supremacist groups in particular, including the KKK (who, as we all know, includes Catholics among their hated “enemies”) but who are not in any way whatsoever comparable in number to the vast number of violent Islamic supporters, and are, in fact, no more than a tiny minority outside the USA.

    Besides, the majority of these loony groups do no more than lots of crazy “barking”, but like most bullies (cowards at heart) rarely resort to the “biting” part. Most of the dangerous “loonies” who do resort to violence or terrorism are bitter ‘lone wolves’ (like the Norwegian murderer, Anders Breivik), and not representative of any movement.

    No offense meant, dear friend, but to even bring this subject up in a debate on the VERY real threat of an Islamic takeover of the West is like dancing with relativism, IMO.

    Cardinal Burke (re the link in my comment above) puts the whole issue into its proper, honest context. Let’s wake up and face reality: Muslim immigration MUST be limited if we are to survive…. But even more importantly: let’s get back to embracing the precepts of our Holy Catholic Faith! Right now we Westerners have grown into lazy, comfort-loving, narcissistic secularists. Easy prey for the growing Islamic radicals.


  31. J.P. says:

    johnhenrycn@19.33. For what it is worth, I do not think, anymore than you do,that women can become priests or deacons.That is one of these equality fallacies.
    However, that doesn’t mean I think the reason is that men are necessarily more moral than women, having seen a sample of abusive priests in Catholic schools and elsewhere.


  32. The Raven says:

    Kathleen, Over their long and disreputable history white supremacists and other right wingers have been responsible for more deaths of US citizens than the Islamists have ever managed (including the thousands killed on 9/11). These people are extremely dangerous and present in large numbers in the US.

    I think that we can agree that there are plenty of dangerous Jihadi types in the Middle East, killing the innocent (usually their fellow Moslems), but their numbers in the West are tiny; they are no more representative of western Moslems than the IRA was of the Irish diaspora in England.

    The only way that the Moslems will take over the West is if natives start to convert to Islam (we still massively outnumber first and second generation people from Moslem countries).


  33. johnhenrycn says:

    “…white supremacists and other right wingers have been responsible for more deaths of US citizens than the Islamists have ever managed (including the thousands killed on 9/11).”

    Raven: Excluding Indians exterminated during the days when they did not claim to be and never were US citizens, how do you support that statement?

    Custer and people like him were not “right wing”; they were ignorant people of their times.


  34. johnhenrycn says:

    …Negroes too have not been killed in large numbers since becoming US citizens.


  35. The Raven says:

    Over 4000 lynchings in the South between 1880 and 1951 and you can top that figure up with all of the people killled by the likes of Tim McVeigh and Dylan Toof.


  36. johnhenrycn says:

    This book, Without Sanctuary is on my bookshelf, but it does not in any way typify America. And some of the lynchings in it depict hangings of white people in the South.

    Tim McVeigh? Please. More whites were killed in that tragedy than were negroes. Dylan Roof ? If you’re suggesting he is anywhere typical of white Americans, I say that you are wrong.


  37. kathleen says:

    @ The Raven

    Like JH, I’m truly at a loss to know what you are talking about! Who are these fictitious, murdering “white supremacists” today? If (as JH has suggested) you are talking about the old days of cowboys and Indians, or the slave trade, I’m beginning to think you are pulling my leg!

    This is 2017 and there are no mass muders by any “white” extremists for supposed bizarre racist motives. Instead we are up against a growing and very real danger for the whole world, and currently for the post-Christian West, of the extreme radicalization of Islam. (And yes, they murder even their own people in large numbers too, but that is not the point either.)

    To start harping on about groups of wacky “white supremacists” is like a smokescreen aimed at hiding the uncomfortable truth. You are not a left wing liberal, and yet you are using the same sort of arguments they make use of.

    P.S. Those names you give are examples of some of the minuscule crazy “lone wolves” I was mentioning. Out of millions and millions of Westerners. This is an unrealistic argument!


  38. The Raven says:

    Tim McVeigh? Please. More whites were killed in that tragedy than were negroes.

    I didn’t say that the victims were limited to one particular race, JH: these people are a danger to everyone.

    You mention whites in the lynchings, yes, they made up a quarter of those killed. But then I wasn’t limiting myself to black peoples being killed. Catholics, Irishmen, Chinese and Finns all got murdered for being “other”.

    Dylan Roof ? If you’re suggesting he is anywhere typical of white Americans, I say that you are wrong.

    Phew, that’s a relief, but then again I was NOT suggesting that Roof is in any way typical of white Americans: I’m giving you an example of a dangerous person of the sort who we should be very worried about.


  39. The Raven says:

    Anders Breivik is just one man out of a whole nation. He is no more typical of Norwegians than the Nice attacker was typical of Algerians.

    And your argument makes no sense, Kathleen: you say there are “there are no mass muders by any “white” extremists for supposed bizarre racist motives” I’ve just pointed you to Dylan Roof who killed a load of people last year.

    And lynchings still happen today – do you remember the poor man who was chained to the back of a pickup truck and dragged to death?

    When I highlight to you the murder by a right-wing fanatic you tell me that they are a lone wolf and that this is a one off; but then you argue that Islamist attacks in Europe, which are perpetrated by the same sort of losers as the fascistic attacks that I’ve mentioned, are somehow materially different.

    The uncomfortable truth is that our society is busily committing suicide, by cutting off its roots, by killing its young with its culture of death and by degrading its morality. And instead of focusing on all of the things that our own society is doing wrong, people are blaming the Helots and Xeni in our midst, all but a handful of whom are leading blameless lives.

    Sure, we can point to the feckless wickedness of “multiculturalism” as one of the causes of the lack of integration that some communities face and Merkel was wholly insane to have opened Germany up to such heavy mass-migration, but these are problems caused by our society, not by the innocent people who have come here.


  40. kathleen says:

    @ The Raven

    That’s right: I said there were “no mass murders for racist motives” because there are not! (Only the odd one every few years; they are of course equally vile and wicked.) In contrast to the continual mass muders committed by Islam both in the West, and multiplied many times over in their brutal bombings, beheadings, etc., in Africa, the ME and almost everywhere else.

    Here we sometimes, but rarely, receive news of a crazed attack by an evil white extremist murderer causing any number of victims. But I had to go back six years to find one of your typical “white supremists”, and you needed to resort to mentioning Timothy McVeigh, who committed his horrific crime in 1995 !! – 22 years ago – to attempt to make your point that white supremists are as common and dangerous as Islamic terrorists.
    This is clearly not true, Raven. There are daily atrocities being committed by the Islamic fascists – this is undeniable – and to try to brush over their crimes (or minimise them) by bringing up white fascists’ crimes is ludicrous. Terrorism is a terrible evil, and no race of people, or religion, are wholly innocent of these crimes…. but to not recognise that Islam takes the biscuit, is just plain wrong!

    The Koran is riddled in texts inciting Muslims to ‘kill the infidel’ and jihad; their ‘prophet’ was a murdering, lascivious war-mongerer; their ultimate aim is to subject the whole world (with their eyes set especially on Europe) to their Satanical religion. Even if only 1% of Muslims take the precepts of Islam to heart (and the fact is, worldwide it is a far greater percentage who do) that makes quite a few million Muslims out for our blood!

    Yes, most of the Muslims who have come in these waves of recent mass immigration may well be “innocent”, but not all of them are. Merkel had only just opened Germany’s doors to the first stampede, when an Islamic radical imman was reported announcing with glee, that Islam had already managed to pass 100 potential jihadists into Europe, and many more were on the way!!

    Of course our own secular society is in a bad way, we all know that; saints and scholars of the Catholic Church have been warning us of this for a long time. But that is not what is being disputed here, except to recognise that because our own house is not in order, it is nothing more than suicidal now to allow Muslims to swarm into our homelands.


  41. The Raven says:


    I am surprised that you’re arguing this point so obdurately in defiance of the facts (Ginny hasn’t stolen your log-in details, has she?😉).

    I only have to go back a fortnight to Quebec to see people being murdered by a white supremacist or to 2016 to find ten people being shot dead for being black by a fascist while they were praying in a church. I mention Tim McVeigh only because he killed and maimed an awful lot of people.

    And I thought that we were discussing the situation in the West? I do not think it either useful or helpful to bring up the position in the Middle East, as you’d be comparing states at peace with states involved in civil wars. Surely I don’t need to remind you how awful civil wars are and how people who are normally moral will do awful things to their neighbors (vide Rwanda, Jugoslavia or even take a trip to Guernica if you don’t get that point)?

    I have no desire to defend Islam, which is clearly of the Devil, but I think that the current scare about mahometans serves no one except for the same dubious bunch of fascists who present an equal, if not greater, threat to our society.


  42. toadspittle says:

    “(And yes, they (Muslims) murder even their own people in large numbers too, but that is not the point either.)”
    Absurd. Of course it is, Kathleen.

    “I have no desire to defend Islam, which is clearly of the Devil, but I think that the current scare about mahometans serves no one except for the same dubious bunch of fascists who present an equal, if not greater, threat to our society.”
    Raven is dead right. And all of this conflict – of every stripe- arises out of the notion that “My side (or God) is right, and yours isn’t,” coupled with irrational fear stoked and fostered by cynical demagogues.

    “like Toad…., who couldn’t care less if there were an Islamic takeover….”
    I care quite a lot, Kathleen. Nor would I care, or choose, to live in a Muslim-dominated society.
    In fact, I’d certainly like it even less than living in a Christian-dominated one.
    I’d rather things went on roughly the way they are at present, with a healthy plurality.
    But I realise I might be out of luck with that.


  43. berolahragamolten says:

    i love muhammad SAW


  44. kathleen says:

    @ The Raven

    Looks like we’re both being pretty “obdurate” on this point 😉. It’s clearly something we both feel strongly about. You are saying non-Muslims of fair skin have their crazed terrorists in fair share compared to the followers of Islam. And I roundly disagree.
    Why? Because of the continuing EVIDENCE we are faced with both today and in the past… in fact ever since Islam was born!

    That’s it in a nutshell.


  45. The Raven says:

    Maryla, Kathleen

    Take a good look at the map in Maryla’s link: the worst place in Europe for terrorism is Ukraine: you can hardly blame Islamic terror for that!

    No-one denies that there a baddies out there who take their version of Islam to excuse their disordered minds, and many countries in their part of the world are convulsed by civil war, but the evidence of the last century is that demonising an entire people is of the Devil and leads to death and Hell.


  46. mmvc says:

    From my link @ 08:42:

    Though the index identifies 274 distinct terrorist groups around the world, between them Isis, Boko Haram, al-Qaeda and the Taliban were responsible for 75 per cent of all terror-related deaths.

    Raven, the common denominator here is Islam which you agree is ‘clearly of the Devil’. The devil does not produce good fruit. Justified concern and reasonable attempts to curb the spread of an inherently evil religion/ideology does not equal ‘demonising an entire people’.

    Having said that, we mustn’t forget that we have the most powerful of weapons against this and all other evils.


  47. kathleen says:

    @ The Raven

    THE worst place in Europe for terrorism is Ukraine

    No, it’s not THE worst place at all; it is only ONE of them. The others are mainly those where there are high concentrations of Islamic jihadists.
    From Maryla’s link:

    The index shows Isis is now officially the deadliest terrorist group in the world
    Though the index identifies 274 distinct terrorist groups around the world, between them Isis, Boko Haram, al-Qaeda and the Taliban were responsible for 75 per cent of all terror-related deaths.

    Please note: all from Islam!

    And this was news to me:

    Despite receiving far greater international news coverage than any other terrorist incident of 2015, the Paris attacks with a combined death toll of 136 do not even feature in the top 10 most deadly events of the year.

    !!! 136 deaths of innocent people, nearly all young, and this incident did even reach “the top 10” in 2015 for Islamic terrorist actions?!?

    And yet you bring up that French Canadian white supremist’s terrorist action of a couple of weeks ago in Quebec to try to prove your point? (Harrumph!)

    The Raven, you also say:

    demonising an entire people is of the Devil and leads to death and Hell.

    Wow! This coming from you (my respected, admired and loved team-mate) has really surprised me!
    But in actual fact, nowhere have I demonised “an entire people”, so you cannot accuse me of that! Although I admit, I do not doubt for a second that those who commit such horrendous acts of terrorism as we have been discussing above, are indeed possessed by Satan. And those who sympathise with this evil scourge of terrorism are opening their souls to Satan too. They should be warned!
    Therefore, it follows, that the great majority of Muslims are not in the demon’s clutches! Yet! But as Islam was most certainly instigated by the demon’s visit to false prophet, Mohammad, to whom he imparted his ideas, Islam itself is a demonic creed, whose ultimate goal is to subjugate the world to adore Satan and his teachings!!

    We must not only protect our nations from an Islamic takeover – (three cheers for President Trump!) – we must ALSO evangelise the millions of poor Muslims everywhere who are caught up in this evil heresy.
    Evangelisation is most successful when Christians are faithful to Christ’s teaching (like we are seeing in some missionary countries), but as we have grown lukewarm and/or unfaithful in the West, we are as a whole pretty rotten witnesses of the One True Faith.
    And this will rest heavily on our consciences at the Last Judgement!


  48. The Raven says:


    I am not accusing you of demonising anyone.

    And I purposely restricted myself to Europe and Ukraine is sadly the worst afflicted place in Europe, with Russian backed terrorists murdering people daily.

    Haven’t you noticed that all of the worst places for terrorism are war zones? The vast numbers of fatalities in, say, Iraq are hardly comparable to the situation in the US or Western Europe.

    As I say, in Western Europe or the US you are as likely to be murdered by a right wing nutter as an Islamist nutter.


  49. mmvc says:

    “…we must ALSO evangelise the millions of poor Muslims everywhere who are caught up in this evil heresy.”

    Well said, Kathleen.

    I found this novena on 1Peter5:

    Most Holy Virgin, who has deigned to come to Fatima to reveal to the three little shepherds the treasures of graces hidden in the recitation of the Rosary, inspire our hearts with a sincere love of this devotion, so that by meditating on the mysteries of our redemption that are recalled in it, we may gather the fruits and obtain the conversion of Muslims to the Catholic Faith, which I ask of you in this novena, for the greater glory of God, for your own honour, and for the good of all people. Amen.

    Then say the Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be three times each.

    And here’s a consecration prayer by Pope Pius XI:

    Most sweet Jesus, Redeemer of the human race, look down upon us humbly prostrate before Thine altar. We are Thine, and Thine we wish to be; but, to be more surely united with Thee, behold each one of us freely consecrates himself today to Thy most Sacred Heart.

    Many indeed have never known Thee; many too, despising Thy precepts, have rejected Thee. Have mercy on them all, most merciful Jesus, and draw them to Thy Sacred Heart. Be Thou King, O Lord, not only of the faithful who have never forsaken Thee, but also of the prodigal children who have abandoned Thee; grant that they may quickly return to Thy Father’s house lest they die of wretchedness and hunger.

    Be Thou King of those who are deceived by erroneous opinions, or whom discord keeps aloof, and call them back to the harbour of truth and unity of faith, so that there may be but one flock and one Shepherd.

    Be Thou King of all those who are still involved in the darkness of idolatry or of Islamism, and refuse not to draw them into the light and kingdom of God. Turn Thine eyes of mercy towards the children of the race, once Thy chosen people: of old they called down upon themselves the Blood of the Saviour; may it now descend upon them a laver of redemption and of life.

    Grant, O Lord, to Thy Church assurance of freedom and immunity from harm; give peace and order to all nations, and make the earth resound from pole to pole with one cry: “Praise be to the divine Heart that wrought our salvation; to it be glory and honour for ever.” Amen.


  50. kathleen says:

    Thank you for that lovely novena, Maryla. I intend to pray it often 😌.

    The Raven:

    I am not accusing you of demonising anyone.

    Thank you dear Raven; that’s a relief!

    I think we’ve talked through this subject to exhaustion now. Besides, I’ve gone down with the ‘flu and not up to much internet debating at present. (Groan!)


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