An excellent commentary on the next battle in the war with the modernists:
Source: Missal Wars Revived
Fr Hugh says:
“To be blunt and take things to their extreme: there is no need for the people to understand immediately and completely (an impossibility anyway if there is any real content at all to them) the prayers of the Mass as they are not addressed to the people at all, but to God. In which case their content is all important, especially so that Latin-rite Catholics in whatever the language in which they worship are all united in praying for the same thing, and not locked in a local ghetto obsessed by local issues or the latest fads of the parish oligarchy.”
Try telling that to blockheaded donkeys who bray about how important the vernacular is for true worship by we ignoramuses who cannot converse in Latin. They are idiots, if not sinister saboteurs.
And then these words below Fr Hughs post by commenter SrLynnMarie:
“Ever since the Mass changed from Latin to English (when I was 10) I have been waiting for things to get back to normal, i.e. Latin and Gregorian Chant. I entered religious life. I’ve served on three continents; North America, Europe and East Asia. Only in Asia was there some semblance of proper worship and more use of Latin than in …North America or Europe…Honestly, I don’t have any hope anymore. And the way things are going I am sure the Church will not survive this crisis without a schism.”
Again, getting blockheads to see the damage they’ve done is a Sisyphean task.
Sr Lynn Marie ends by saying there is no hope of avoiding schism – which is not the same as saying there is no hope. I don’t know and I still pray (I should pray harder) that schism is not inevitable; but one thing about schism, if it occurs, is that there will be two sides to it, and we must do our best in Christian charity to be on the right side, which may mean summoning the courage of defiance.
I never thought I’d see an open advocate for schism on a Catholic blog, but here it is.
Whatever the rights or wrongs, it is full of contemptuous language for ordinary Catholics. To sneer at them as ‘blockheaded donkeys’ is counterproductive in the extreme. JH is his own worst enemy if he thinks he’ll convince anyone with this ranting talk.
There is the revelation that a schism will have ”two sides” to it. Well, well.
And who does jh wish to courageously defy? He doesn’t say.
Mr Furiouso says: “I never thought…” QED
A donkey is a donkey. Get over it, or ask Brother Burrito, unless you’re Brother Burrito’s puppet.
“Contemptuous language for ordinary Catholics”? I’m as ordinary a Catholic as you can get, albeit more informed and interested in the Faith than most. I was referring to a Catholic (nameless until he exposes himself, which he will) who preens and boasts about his oh-so-pure-and-perfect pedigree as such, as if he’s better than ordinary Catholics who scoff at his pretentiousness.
Now listen up: If there is a schism, which (as I say above) I pray will not occur, there WILL be two sides. Like duh – that’s what schism means? You’ll need to be on the RIGHT side of schism if it happens. Clear?
“And who does jh wish to courageously defy? He doesn’t say.”
Of course I don’t say! I don’t know yet how this one hundredth anniversary year of a certain momentous event is going to end, but I am deeply worried and – I will go so far as to say this – my confidence in our Holy Father is being sorely tested, as if he cares.
Having just appeared somewhat battle worn from an encounter with Mr Kehoe (alias, J.P.) I shouldn’t really be sticking my nose in here 😉. However, it is perfectly clear to all our regulars who JH was referring to, Figus Religiosa, and truthfully, it wasn’t you!
(Oops, have I nonetheless managed to give the game away as to their identity?)
Anyway, JH’s obscure so-called “blockhead” could learn a thing or two reading this great new post from Liturgy Guy (Brian Williams) on his excellent blog entitled, “Why Latin?” There’s a video too, but unfortunately the sound quality is pretty poor. The main points Liturgy Guy summarises from Father Bartone’s presentation are:
– Latin is important because it is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular.
– A non-vernacular language (Latin) is also a form of veiling that helps reveal the mystery of God.
– The Devil HATES Latin.
– Gregorian chant & Latin are inextricably linked. They are literally a match made in heaven.
– Latin is a sacred language set aside for our worship of God.
– The Church has offered the Mass in Latin for 1700 years
– Why Latin in the Mass? Because it’s awesome!
I’m at sixes and sevens, possibly due to the ongoing sockpuppetry of John Kehoe aka J.P. aka Hey Jude. This silly Figus Religiosa cartoon doesn’t ring any bells, but Mr Furioso seemed an apt synonym to describe his approach to blogs. Is he also a sockpuppet? Whether he is or not, he’s a hoot. I hate sockpuppetry.
I seem to have encountered some paranoia here. JH’s comments are impenetrable yet mildly alarming.. Schisms, sockpuppets, cartoons, hoots, and more. None of this has anything to do with me.
Go and have a lie-down.
Isn’t figus religiosa (close to being) the Sacred Bodhi Tree? Time will tell, I suppose.
Doesn’t Golden Chersonese refer to the peninsula which was attractive to Hindus and also to pagan Greeks and Romans? I prefer tropical plants with interesting names.
Figus Furioso adds a certain cheeky tone to his offerings reminiscent of a former commenter who went by the tag “Parousia” (if memory serves) but this was 4 – 5 years ago. He also smells a bit like he may be an habitué of a certain Spanish donkey farm operated by a former contributor to this august website. Time will tell whether this latest incarnation is one and the same. Parousia. “Second Coming” indeed. The 99th Coming, more like.
Utter nonsense, every single word. Total fantasy from an ambulance chaser. Amusing though, especially when sharing expert knowledge of donkeys and their by-products.
The person of which you’re a sockpuppeting doppelgänger was never exactly famous for candor or authenticity, so your denial means nothing to me. But old frere did add some spice to these pages once in a blue moon, I will say that.
Gareth Thomas, the highly regarded and unjustly maligned ex-pat “Mr Chips” of Salamanca. What will happen to him now in view of Brexit?
Only someone familiar with CP&S years ago would know that GC’s initials stand for Golden Chersonese! 😉
But back to the topic of the article…
Last Sunday I made the one hour drive to the city to attend the monthly Tridentine Mass, the only one available for us here, and celebrated every first Sunday of the month. (Those who are able to attend this sublimely holy Mass more frequently are truly fortunate!) This time I was taking a young girlfriend with me who had never been to a Tridentine Mass before and was curious about it.
The little chapel where the Holy Latin Mass was to be celebrated was packed out, the faithful having grown surprisingly fast in recent times, with many new faces of eager young people, men and women in roughly equal numbers. Confessions were talking place when we arrived and so we both joined the long line. My friend had no Missal, so we shared my one and she was delighted by the beautiful prayers, and followed the Mass with no difficulty.
Afterwards, overwhelmed and enthusiastic by what she had experienced, she asked me why this lovely Mass was ever changed! Naturally, I had no proper answer to this question we all continue to ask ourselves; it all happened when I was too little to understand the tragic destruction taking place in the Church. (But I do recall very vividly the great sorrow and incredulity of my parents at the upheavals in the Liturgy.)
Father Hugh says:
“What cannot be avoided is the stark reality that as soon as the new Mass was introduced Mass attendance began to plummet at a steady and almost inexorable rate.”
That is an undisputed fact! The Novus Ordo Mass, versus populum, in the vernacular, shortened and void of many of the TLM’s prayers and reverence, simply failed to nourish the souls of the faithful in the same way.
The good news is that many young people are now discovering the “Old Mass” (the Traditional Latin Mass), and as the old modernist diehards leave this world, the young TLM supporters will eventually swing the numbers in its favour.
See HERE the reasons a young person gives for loving the TLM, while Dr Shaw (another Chartres pilgrim) adds a few more points.
”Only someone familiar with CP&S years ago would know that GC’s initials stand for Golden Chersonese! 😉” Yes of course Kathleen! That’s obvious. Why didnt you ask?
Never joined way back, but often looked in. You have changed a lot. Now please reassure the Magnificent Mountie that bursting his bodice is excessive.He is rather rude about it and finds good humoured rebuttal hard to take. His very first words to me were that he’d ‘put me in my place”.
PS How do you like Chartres with the internal stone cleaning? A little like Vezelay now?
There are, I’m told, computer programs that can now detect with astonishing accuracy the presence of sockpuppets by their psychological profiles and use of language, even when said puppets lie, and of course, being liars is the essence of sockpuppetry. I don’t need to purchase that software. Ask Hey Jude.
“Father Hugh says “What cannot be avoided is the stark reality that as soon as the new Mass was introduced Mass attendance began to plummet at a steady and almost inexorable rate.”
I’ve heard it said that the very reason for Vat 2 was an attempt to stem the alarmingly plummeting numbers of Mass goers even back then.
…But what do I know?
Did Vat 2 make the plummeting even worse? Possibly.
My personal suspicion is the plummeting numbers reflect the failure of the Church to frighten people into attending Mass any more – by employing the fear of Hell.
…But I’m probably wrong about that, too.
Dear kathleen, back to the point as you say.
I remember that the fixing up of the English translation of the 1969 missal took years. All bishops and their dioceses in the anglophone world were formally consulted. Involved as leaders in the process were such luminaries as Bishop Arthur Roche of Leeds and George Pell, Cardinal Archbishop of Sydney. Though some English-speaking dioceses wouldn’t come on board (as they say in the modern classics), most went along in the end with the much-improved translation. They recognised that the “committee meeting minutes” style language of the previous translation was extremely defective and mean. It made zombies of us at Mass because it was so spiritually abbreviated and lame, effectively.
The current translation is far more true to the tone and spirit of the prayers and responses of the Roman liturgy, even in the 1969 reform. Even that earlier 1969 poor English translation for the modernists wasn’t enough. It had to be even more hollowed out in the English translation such that we got all kinds of alternative “Eucharistic prayers” and even “liturgies”. This whole time was appalling. Thank God for the later reform of the so-called 1969 “reform”.
I suspect the Bishop of Rome is not terribly “up” with the 1969 liturgy disaster in the anglophone world. It were wise that he consulted with Archbishop Roche and others. I’m a bit concerned that Cardinal Pell seems quiet these days.
I remember Bishop Roche in a rainbow tocque. Damian Thompson thought he was a prat:
“– The Devil HATES Latin.”
How do you know that, Kathleen? Who told you? God?
(Mind you, I hated latin myself when I was twelve.)
I wear a tocque almost constantly (at home) from December through March. Not a “Rainbow” one. A black one or a grey one. My house temperature is kept very low. Too much information.
Toad @ 20:13
Well, Toad, the quote comes from Liturgy Guy’s post actually – I didn’t invent it. However it is common knowledge I believe; the Devil hates anything that gives honour and glory to God.
This testimony from an exorcist is interesting:
“[The exorcist said that] the Rite of Exorcism is only said in Latin. One reason is practical – there is no approved translation in English as yet. He gave another reason why he was so strongly in favor of the use of Latin in the Rite of Exorcism: “The Devil hates Latin, it is the universal language of the Church.” I asked him about this afterwards, and he repeated it, saying that his personal experiences as an exorcist who has performed many, many exorcisms have convinced him of this. He told me he had heard from exorcists who did exorcisms in Italian, Spanish and Portuguese (the only approved vernaculars for this Rite) that Latin was the most effective language.”
GC @ 19:45
Yes, it was a terrible time in the Church, wasn’t it! All a bit above our heads at our young age, but we suffered the following after-effects. In fact it’s only down to the grace of God (and some due is owed to our good Catholic parents) that we didn’t join the stampede out of the Church!
I suspect the Bishop of Rome is not terribly “up” with the 1969 liturgy disaster in the anglophone world.
No, I doubt he is! In typical Jesuit fashion, any talk on the Liturgy appears to bore him stiff. And he’s been less than flattering about those who love and seek the beautiful Liturgy of the TLM.
And, kathleen, as we know Father Z has just about given his life to show us truer translations. He’s currently running an article on the great “form” of the Mass, that has now sort of “caved in”. Demolished, more like.
I’ve learned a new word, JH – tocque. I think in England they just call it a “woolly hat”, while in New Zealand Mr Fisher probably knows it as a “beanie”.
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