Cardinal Pell and “Internalized Catholicphobia”

Written by Michael Warren Davis

One’s first day at college is always disorienting – particularly if it takes place halfway ‘round the world. As an American student at the University of Sydney, everything had shock value: Oxbridgian limestone castles stand proudly next to slouching palm trees, which are home to flocks of cackling kookaburras. (Very ugly, mean-spirited birds, by the way.) But nothing was quite so strange as the sight of twenty students dressed in lace and robes marching slowly across campus. Some carried a canopy; one swung a thurible; another held the Cross aloft. And, in their midst, a priest clutching a monstrance. I quickly came to realize that Eucharistic processions were a regular occurrence at the USyd, thanks to the Catholic Society and its marvellous chaplains.

The Society really is a treasure. Despite being an Episcopalian (albeit a traditionally-minded one) at the time, I quickly realised I could do worse than to make friends with its members. And so I did. Those friendships remain strong even two years after I graduated and repatriated. They were crucial in my decision to become Catholic, and a traditionalist specifically: most of them are parishioners in the majestic Latin Mass parish in Lewisham. One of the chaplains, a jovial friar of the old order, would tag along on pub night to keep us out of trouble… and maybe sing a bar or two of the Kaiserhymne.

I hope this is a pleasant surprise to those of you who’ve come to expect a very different experience with college chaplaincies, at least in secular schools: guitars, tube-tops, etc. There are any number of reasons why USyd got it right when so many others have gotten it wrong, but I think it has to do mostly with the great personal interest George Cardinal Pell took in the Society. In fact, one of his last engagements before shipping off to the Vatican was a dinner party he threw for some of the students he’d mentored. He was a sterling influence on them, as he has been for generations of Australian Catholics.

But the Society paid a steep price for his friendship. When the Royal Commission flared up and His Eminence became the victim of a media witch-hunt, the same toxic atmosphere descended on campus. It was as though all Catholic students were culpable in Cardinal Pell’s “crimes” – crimes the Commission hasn’t a single shred of evidence to prove. The open hostility from left-wing Arts majors was shocking. Even conservative Protestants scorned them. Many Catholic students with political ambitions quietly distanced themselves from both the Society and His Eminence.

In my experience, the Aussie faithful know he’s innocent, or at least that he’s been treated disgracefully. They realize that the standard of justice – innocent until proven guilty – no longer applies to Catholics. Our priests are automatically assumed to be pedophiles, and laymen are assumed to be complicit in their perversion. This is nothing new: we all remember Bl. Cardinal Newman having to defend himself against accusations of “effeminacy” for remaining celibate, even as an Anglican.

What’s novel, and disturbingly so, is how deeply this prejudice runs among Catholics themselves. One hesitates to monger grievance, but the phrase “Catholicphobia” – perhaps even “internalized Catholicphobia”! – leaps to mind.

You see it across the Australian media. All of Cardinal Pell’s most shameless and venomous critics invariably begin their attacks by saying something like: “I was raised Catholic, and though I don’t practice myself, I had a very devout grandmother. There are lots of things about Catholicism I still admire. However…” Then they go on to tell abject lies, or else spout nonsense about sexual repression and the patriarchy.

In fact, most of the Western Church suffers from a rather severe case of internalized Catholicphobia. While our Holy Mother has done a sterling job of protecting children from abuse, many “reforms” have badly overshot the mark. Except for in TLM parishes, altar boys are all but extinct, and “extraordinary ministers” have proliferated in their place. We’ve stopped apprenticing our children for the priesthood, and instead deputize laywomen to dispense the Body and Blood like hot dog vendors at a baseball game.

Now, it’s one thing for non-Catholics to distrust priests. That’s been the norm in Protestant countries since the Reformation. But what hope do we have if Catholics themselves mistrust their Fathers?

When I first spoke to my priest about conversion, I remember telling him how refreshing it was to see local boys serving at the altar. After spending eight years in Catholic school and attending hundreds of Masses as an Episcopalian, it was a completely novel experience. How wise their parents are to buck this anti-clerical hysteria – and how brave the priests to defy the gossipers!

That’s yet another example of the power of the TLM to gain converts. Very few are truly won over by the Novus Ordo, with its guitar-strummers and “extraordinary ministers”. No one wants to join a religion that’s embarrassed by its own traditions and suspicious of its own clergy. Yet we persist in privileging rumor over truth and fashion over orthodoxy. It begs the question: is our internalized Catholicphobia so severe we’re willing to let the Church go extinct?

Published in Fetzen Fliegen


At last Cardinal Pell can—sort of—face his accusers

“The very public trial of Cardinal Pell is a frightening spectacle, a reminder of how difficult it is to preserve the rights of someone who is accused of a heinous crime, and how easy it is for rumors to ruin a reputation. Let’s pray for a prompt, fair hearing and a clear, just result” – Philip Lawler

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

65 Responses to Cardinal Pell and “Internalized Catholicphobia”

  1. Mary Salmond says:

    The internalized Catholic phobia is not much different than how high school girls treat each other, usually out of jealousy! The ability in our society to make a suggestion (sometimes an exaggerated lie) of inappropriate behavior is appalling! If in the family this is not recognized and stopped, only becomes worse as a person moves into the work force. It is a sad development of not knowing the commandments fully OR knowing the sacrament of confession.

  2. GC says:

    Tsk tsk, we’re all under threat here of charges of contempt of court for passing comments on this. Well, let the officers of the County court in Melbourne and the Victoria state police come and get us.

    It were unfortunate that contempt rules can’t be applied retrospectively also to deal with those who drag a person’s reputation through the mud by means of media leaks, as the Australian press and government-financed media had no difficulty doing, years before any charges were formed.

    Really, the whole thing reeks in the most putrid way of hysteria-by-design and a long-cherished desire of atheist forces to do as much damage as possible to the ancient Catholic Church. They have long been working on this. And of course, their attempts are nothing new.

    By the way, can I suggest, instead of “catholicphopia”, “Romaphopia” has a certain ring to it (I’m not sure why? Maybe it’s the rhymingness.)? Although these days, I suggest, the fear and hatred of Rome on that score is obviously quite misplaced. What say you, quite true isn’t it, Cardinal Coccopalmerio and Archbishop Paglia?

  3. kathleen says:

    Great comment, GC, hitting ‘nail’ squarely on ‘head’. Yup, the “atheist forces” have indeed been planning and working towards this (now) no longer concealed open war on the Holy Catholic Church and Her most courageous defenders.

    Perhaps the “Catholicphobia” (or more pleasant-sounding, “Romaphobia” 😉) is not so noticeable on your Golden Chersonnese, but sadly it is very palpable now in many countries of Europe… and in the U.S. too, according to our American friends.

    The most worrying aspect of this “phobia” of course is that demonstrated by Catholics themselves, who are usually those of a more liberal, worldly mindset. The negative, biased propaganda gets to them more easily.

  4. Mary Salmond says:

    Agreed. Catholic phobia is sadly palpable; that’s what I was trying to say.

  5. kathleen says:

    The sudden death of Cardinal Meisner is very sad news. He died with his breviary in his hand, preparing for Holy Mass, fulfilling his priestly duties as he alway had done. Such a good and faithful man, who had fought and suffered to defend Christ’s Sacred Truth to the very end of his life, though taken unexpectedly, can surely go to meet his Creator with great joy and a clear conscience.

  6. JabbaPapa says:

    The death of Cardinal Meisner is indeed very sad news.

    Worse news though is the hate-fest against Cardinal Pell, who has done more to help the victims of the clerical gay lobby in Australia than any man alive.

  7. toadspittle says:

    “Cardinal Pell’s “crimes” – crimes the Commission hasn’t a single shred of evidence to prove. “
    Pointless putting him on trial, then. “No evidence,” eh? Seems unlikely, but what do I know?
    Should be interesting, offering none.
    No, he won’t get a “fair trial,” Very few people with high public profiles ever do. Price of fame.
    Remember Saint Thomas More. (or Oscar Wilde.)

  8. toadspittle says:

    “In my experience, the Aussie faithful know he’s innocent, or at least that he’s been treated disgracefully.”
    In my experience, those are two entirely different issues. Nor can anyone “know” if Pell’s innocent or not – even after his trial – they can only know what the verdict was..
    “..those who drag a person’s reputation through the mud by means of media leaks, as the Australian press..”
    What is the Australian press to do? Ignore the fact that an Australian cardinal has been charged with a serious offence? Suppress the news? Don’t talk rot, GC.
    The media doesn’t “leak” stuff – people leak stuff to them and they run it (or not.).
    This is a good story. They are obliged to run it. Or else be accused of a cover-up. What if it had been a Lutheran bigwig? OK to suppress that, for fear of upsetting the Lutherans? In my experience, nobody’s particularly picking on Catholics, just on a religious celeb who is one.
    Though, of course, my experience might be quite wrong.

  9. toadspittle says:

    Wrong of me to accuse you of talking “rot,” GC, and I’m sorry.
    It’s just that people outside “the media,” have no idea ho idea how they work.
    But they think that they do.
    It’s very hard to get to the truth of any event especially on deadline. Sometimes we get it all wrong, and have to be put right later. That’s fine. But I’ve never been involved in running a story that I knew to be a lie.
    Believe it or not.

  10. JabbaPapa says:

    I believe it anyway, dear toad.

    I hope that this year’s hordes and heat are being kept in proper abeyance

  11. GC says:

    Toad’s protestations (2 and 3 above this) as to the unimpeachable professional virginity of media persons are again touching, but little if anything beyond that. What a laugh.

    Perhaps due to Toad’s remoteness there in the backblocks of Castille and Leon, Toad has failed to pick up what exactly the said media leaks actually were. I am not absolutely sure if this is another case of us being expected to do Toad’s homework for Toad as usual, so that Toad can just come again on CP&S and flatulate willy-nilly.

    The media leaks are attested to here in Fr Frank Brennan SJ’s article (Fr Brennan is no great fan of the Cardinal, to say the least). It seems that just before Cardinal Pell was to give testimony yet again before the Royal Commission on this abuse business, leaks were either directly or indirectly provided to the media by the police. These leaks suggested that the Cardinal himself was an abuser, even long before any investigation had made much headway. The Cardinal himself knew nothing of any allegation or investigation and only learned of them when contacted over the phone by an Australian virginal media person while he slept in Rome.

    The leaks stuff is to be found in Fr Brennan SJ’s article a little before half-way down his article, where it says: Last Friday afternoon, the Melbourne Herald Sun, armed with leaked material emanating from the Victoria Police, phoned Pell in Rome. He was in bed.

    As a final observation, it would be useful to make a note about the behaviour of the Victoria state police after they initially gave their approval to the Church’s procedures, instituted by Cardinal Pell himself in 1996, to deal with these kinds of complaints. When decades later it actually came to parliamentary inquiries and royal commissions the police sought to put as much distance as possible between themselves and the Church, even though the Church sought to work with them from the 90s. These charges against Cardinal Pell could, I very much think, be seen in terms of this very anxious distancing that the Victoria police want to get across to us now – a*se-saving, I think they used to call it.

  12. toadspittle says:

    “..leaks were either directly or indirectly provided to the media by the police. “
    And what should we expect the media to do with them? Decide they are all lies and ignore them? That would do nicely for us on CP&S, wouldn’t it?
    I know very well “the media” are no better than anyone else. Probably considerably less morally scrupulous than Traditional Catholics. Some unprincipled and Godless scoundrels might even take pleasure in the discomfiture of a notable pillar of The Church. (Incredible as it may seem.)

    “Toad’s protestations (2 and 3 above this) as to the unimpeachable professional virginity of media persons are again touching, but little if anything beyond that. What a laugh.”
    True – I’m not, and never have been, a professional virgin, GC (how about you?) and am clearly considerably less holy than thou. Just have to get on with it. Too late to change now.
    But it’s gratifying to know I’ve managed to touch you.

    “These charges against Cardinal Pell could, I very much think, be seen in terms of this very anxious distancing that the Victoria police want to get across to us now – a*se-saving, I think they used to call it.”
    But let’s shoot the messengers, anyway. They deserve it, the rascals.

  13. The Raven says:

    I guess it must be a UK legal thing, but I thought that journalists had a professional obligation not to influence the outcome of a criminal case by publishing this sort of unbalanced, prejudicial material, Toad?

    Or don’t you think that Pell deserves a fair trial?

  14. toadspittle says:

    “I thought that journalists had a professional obligation not to influence the outcome of a criminal case by publishing this sort of unbalanced, prejudicial material..”

    Unbalanced and prejudicial by whose standards, Raven? Yours? Mine? Rupert Murdoch’s?
    What are your objective standards for those two slippery customers?

    I had a little phrase framed on the wall of my loony media office:
    “News is something, somebody, somewhere, doesn’t want you to read.
    Everything else is advertising.”

    No, I don’t think Pell will get a fair trial. Too many prejudices, con and pro.
    What’s more, some people will believe he’s guilty, whatever the verdict – and others will be convinced he’s innocent whatever the verdict.
    Human, all too human. That’s us.
    Like with the O.J. Simpson trial.

  15. The Raven says:

    Toad, most of the stuff that is being published is in opinion pieces or slyly linked together, like the Times’ treatment of the “Roman Orgy” story, which it used to take a slosh at Pell (although he had nothing to do with the goings on in that particular cardinal’s apartment).

    I don’t want people to read unadulterad balls and lies put about by people with an ax to grind against Pell’s social conservatism – does that make those things worthy of journalistic publication?

  16. toadspittle says:

    “I don’t want people to read unadulterad balls and lies put about by people with an ax to grind against Pell’s social conservatism – does that make those things worthy of journalistic publication?”
    I understand, and agree, Raven. I daily read an endless amount of unadulterated balls that I don’t personally consider worthhy of publication – we all do.
    Because, until I read it, how can I tell?

    It’s all a matter of relative taste and judgement. Look at the bloody awful movies people actually pay to see. Look at the rubbish on TV. Look at the crazy altars the credulous worship at.
    In my time, the foibles of Diana, for instance, left me cold and bored. But I “religiously” put in thousands of stories and photos of her, because people seemed to like it. It was my job.
    I now enjoy reading long boring stuff about Linguistic Philosophy, or the Decline and Fall of Logical Positivism, for example. But I don’t expect others to. Takes all sorts, dunnit?

    And you can’t stop people with an axe to grind, from doing so. Indeed, axe -grinding is a democratic right. We all do it on CP&S. All we can do is be selective regarding the axe and the neck.

    If I were still in charge of a “media outlet,” would I be running the Pell story?
    Yes. No choice. But I also think it’s an interesting one.
    And what we must also remember is that there are many people who regard all religion as “unadulterated balls.”
    (That’s enough unadulterated pomposity, Toad.)

  17. The Raven says:

    Even if they’re running what is clearly black propaganda, designed to influence a criminal trial?

  18. johnhenrycn says:

    But what is “black propaganda” will say Toad, as he twirls his moral kaleidoscope? And he will answer:Rotation of the cell causes motion of the materials, resulting in an ever-changing viewed pattern.

  19. toadspittle says:

    JH is right, of course. One man’s “black propaganda,” is another man’s, well, “white propaganda.”
    It’s clear to you, that “they”are running black propaganda – but it’s probably not clear to “them.” They consider they re “exposing evil and corruption,” or whatever they choose to call it

    And, if “they” are the media – I don’t believe they are concerned with influencing the result of Pell’s trial. Makes no difference to them which way it goes. It’s still a story.

    But I might be wrong, as usual, here – I dont know the specific ins and outs. Maybe sections of the Australian press are out for Pell’s head for some reason.
    If so, it’s as morally dubious as it would be for people to be out to get the Pope for some reason.
    Just as some people clearly believe it’s their Christian duty to try to unseat the Pope, others think it’s their duty ( though maybe not Christian) to do the same to Pell.
    Probably different people.

  20. johnhenrycn says:

    The Gospel of Toad:
    Do not try to distinguish opinion from principle; everything in life is a matter of taste.

  21. GC says:

    JH, do you think we can prevail upon the dear long-absent Brother Burrito to re-introduce “likes” on this historical blog? I’ve suddenly got itchy fingers after this comment of yours.

    I not seldom think this blog needs to be liberated from Toad. If the domineering Toad doesn’t think contributors and commenters here are able to comment here in an attempt to arrive at truth and reasonableness through discussion, then do we really have to put up with him? His basic assumptions and subsequent notions are his affair (problem?), not ours.

  22. The Raven says:

    Toad, if they are spreading innuendo (and they must be doing it knowingly, unless the press in Oz employs sub literate chumps) and deliberately blackening a man’s name before he stands trial, what can it possibly be other than “black propaganda”? It certainly ain’t calculated to do anyone any good.

    Your attitude to this issue seems utterly divorced from the subject matter of this exercise in journalistic procedure.

  23. Mary Salmond says:

    Please, jh, gc, Raven, abc et al. Toadspittle is the court jester and self-appointed antagonist. Let’s move on. The current media is imploding on itself. But hopefully justice will be served in court with Cardinal Pell. Say a prayer for Pell and Toadspittle. It’s only fair!

  24. toadspittle says:

    I not seldom think this blog needs to be liberated from Toad.
    I agree\, GC. High time we shut the scoundrel down.
    He’s always negative. Not at all Catholic. Brainless.
    Let’s vote on it.
    I will cheerfully vote for Toad to be banned.
    But I’m not the Court Jester these days – just the voice of anything, otherwise, unmentionable .
    And who needs that?
    However, by all means, pray for me .
    What possible harm can it do?

    Right now, you might rather pray that my beloved cat, Mo – comes back.
    I miss him, and love him so. But he’s only a cat, and not made in God’s image.
    …So, it doesn’t matter.
    It says here.

  25. GC says:

    Just keep saying that to yourself. But I really can’t guarantee that anybody else is particularly interested.

    Oh, I do hope pussy comes back.

  26. JabbaPapa says:

    I will cheerfully vote for Toad to be banned

    Well, I don’t know how others feel, but I quite grouchily vote against and angrily demand that others state the same against this ill-advised proposal.

  27. johnhenrycn says:

    And I angrily agree with your angry demand.

    Signed, Angry in Ontario

  28. Mary Salmond says:

    Why make arguments one sided!? Having another opinion is part of discourse. I’m neutral on this vote. We are a Catholic website – we should be universal! Yes?

  29. johnhenrycn says:

    You’re entirely right, dear Mary from Londonderry, and we stand corrected. Toad, JabbaPapa and I are the 3 Stooges around these parts. There used to be 4 of us until our beloved Brother Burrito left to seek other pastures.

  30. toadspittle says:

    More the Marx Brothers, JH – with you and Jabba as as Grouchos – and Toad as Zeppo.

  31. The Raven says:

    I had you more down as Harpo.

  32. The Raven says:

    Jabba, seconded (in an grouchy manner).

  33. GC says:

    Who said anything about taking a vote? We here in the CP&S team prefer weighing things up together and then trying to reach a consensus. You can go and take votes on your own blogs.

    I somehow missed this article, (As Cardinal Pell goes on trial, the Australian Church must hold its nerve), in the Catholic Herald on 6 July by Father Raymond De Souza in Kingston, Ontario ( which can’t be all that far from johnhenry, otherwise known as angry of Ontario ^). I don’t know how I missed this one, after even finding the silly one in the Green Left Weekly.

    Just a few bits from it:

    The Church’s enemies are thirsty for blood. A failure of nerve now will be catastrophic for the Catholic future in Australia.

    The anti-Catholic climate in Australia is hard to appreciate without visiting the country or being in regular contact with locals. The royal commission on sexual abuse has made no secret of its intention to put the suffering caused by the sins of the Catholic clergy to good use, namely to fatally discredit the Church’s public witness. Because Cardinal Pell refused to cooperate in the Church’s marginalisation, he has been the target of a nefarious campaign that has brought shame upon Australians, who otherwise are quick to tell you of their sense of fairness, that everyone is entitled to a “fair go”.

    Please read the whole article.

    How are your own blog votes going, boys?

  34. toadspittle says:

    Salutary to see GC bringing this topic back to essentials.
    Apparently:
    1: A lot (?) of Australians hate the Catholic Church, and want to use the Pell case to destroy it.
    2: A lot (?) of Australians have already decided that Pell is innocent – and nothing will persuade them otherwise.
    I’d suggest waiting to see the verdict. Except that it will, whatever it is, as we all know – will not alter anyone’s opinion one iota.
    Such is “prejudgement “( if that word even exists.)
    “The royal commission on sexual abuse has made no secret of its intention to put the suffering caused by the sins of the Catholic clergy to good use, namely to fatally discredit the Church’s public witness.”
    The royal commission has gone on record as saying that is precisely what it is doing?
    What written evidence is there to support that remarkable statement ?
    Maybe there is some,
    don’t know.

  35. toadspittle says:

    (Of course, the weasle word here is “namely.”)

  36. johnhenrycn says:

    Fr De Souza is the pastor of Sacred Heart of Mary Church on Wolfe Island just a short ferry ride outside of Kingston. I was last at Mass there about 10 years ago. Pretty church. Good pastor.

  37. JabbaPapa says:

    Salutary to see GC bringing this topic back to essentials.
    Apparently:
    1: A lot (?) of Australians hate the Catholic Church, and want to use the Pell case to destroy it.

    toad, the Australian police appear to be devoting 25% of their child sex crime resources for the investigation of claims against Catholic priests, who are 0.01% of the population, and cannot materially be responsible for 25% of the 300,000 or so abuses committed every year in that country.

    It’s worse even than just the witch hunt that it is, it’s one that’s diverting valuable investigative manpower away from protecting these poor children from their abusers in the general population

  38. mary salmond says:

    Okay, here’s the scoop. The Good News of the day by Christ Himself, today’s Gospel reading: Matt10:16-23. It begins: “Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves, so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves.” Read the rest yourselves.
    Cardinal Pell will be reading the words at Mass, I’m sure it will hit home for him. He expects to have to defend himself and the Church today and everyday.

  39. toadspittle says:

    Jabba, I’m not defending the Australian police – God knows what police forces can get up to.
    But I am suggesting it’s foolish to blame the media – simply for delivering the bad news.

  40. GC says:

    jabba, if you look at the letters patent of Her Majesty the Queen for the royal commission, you will see that matters included there were – long before said letters patent were in fact, well, made patent – already addressed by the bishops of Australia. This was some 16 years before Her Majesty’s letters, and it was achieved especially by Cardinal Pell when he was Archbishop of Melbourne. Her Majesty was, because of the advice given to her by her government down under, well behind the curve – or tardy, if you prefer.

    I doubt that the royal commission can make few if any further recommendations as to how to counter the small minority of predators within the Catholic clergy. The bishops already had done much of this and there have been hardly any recent cases of predatory behaviour after the bishops got their act together better.

    What is yet to be revealed fully by the royal commission is how they intend to get at the Church’s properties, which are nearly all primary schools and some secondary schools along with churches and a seminary or two. Anybody want to buy some schools , churches and seminaries? Fire sale! Conversion to prize-winning property projects, apartments, hipster cafes, seminary chapels as funky restaurants or swingers clubs, anyone? And don’t forget, tax the Church too. This is coming along nicely.

  41. GC says:

    Toad: But I am suggesting it’s foolish to blame the media – simply for delivering the bad news

    Those virginal professional media persons again.

  42. toadspittle says:

    If you say so, GC.
    All I’m saying – at absurd and foolish length, as usual – is that the loony media don’t “hate” Catholicism – however much you would like them to.
    Because, to do so, would make Catholicism “important,” enough to be persecuted.
    Which it ain’t, I suggest.

    You also seem obsessed with virginity. Why might that be, I wonder?

    Journalists, as I know them, are (like myself) generally a lot of irreligious scamps. No more interested in The Life To Come as they are in the Miracles of Fatima, Original Sin, Winking Statues, or The Sacred Monkeys in The Vatican – all of which they regard as childish superstition.

    But, despite all that, not one of them I’ve ever met “hated” me for being an obvious Catholic.
    They simply couldn’t care less one way or the other. Religion, (any religion) for most of them, I suspect – is/was about as relevant as the typewriter, the beehive hair-do, the hula-hoop, carbon paper, or cuddly old Bing as Father O’Fharty, in brainless and flabby movies with titles like “The Bells Of Saint Mary’s.”

    (Might be utterly wrong, of course. My ideas are naturally all relative, thanks to Kant.)

  43. Mary Salmond says:

    I am watching the 2013 debate between atheist vs christian – Dawkins vs Cardinal Pell to get a feel for how Cdl. Pell thinks. The audience tends toward Dawkins but Pell is calm and not threatened by it. Not sure he is convincing with his answers. Both got too hung up on science. The banner of thoughts on the screen seems to favor Dawkins, but Pell holds his ground.

  44. johnhenrycn says:

    I’ve never actually watched a cricket match. They say some go on for days.

  45. toadspittle says:

    (Revised version.)
    “Not sure he (Pell) is convincing with his answers. “
    Well, he didn’t know what a Neanderthal is (or was.)
    “Both got too hung up on science.”
    Hardly surprising in Dawkins’ case, since he’s a noted scientist.

    Marx (Groucho) was once taken to Lords to watch a cricket match. His hosts patiently explained all thecomplex rules to to him, as he sat and watched. After an hour or so, he said, “I’ve just got one question. When does it start?”

  46. GC says:

    Baseball has the advantage over cricket of being sooner ended. (George Bernard Shaw?)

  47. JabbaPapa says:

    Even the cleverer atheists understand what’s going on here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EbJ0wHTMvs

  48. mary salmond says:

    Interesting video. I guess he is a youtuber or blogger. Need to watch again. I can’t believe the 3 amigos or 3 Marx brothers are still commenting on the original article. Hasn’t this topic been exhausted yet?

  49. toadspittle says:

    “Hasn’t this topic been exhausted yet?”
    The topic is religion, and its inumerable vagaries, Mary. You had better not wish for exhaustion regarding that.
    Or then, where would we be?

    I too watched Jabba’s young Rasputin with the bad haircut and the wandering eye.
    At the end, he shows a line of “religious symbols” in a row, which seem to spell out “Contradict,” with the phrase, “They Can’t All Be Right,” below them.
    That statement is disputable – although I agree it’s highly unlikely. (We are often told, for example, that, “With God, all things are possible,” etc., which can justify any and every thing.)

    …Howeever, the idea that They Can All Be Wong – is clearly not.

  50. Mary Salmond says:

    Rasputin! Ha-ha. Bad hair cut and wandering eye! Haha. Toadspittle! Haha. Can’t judge a book by its cover. Those symbols were a little strange – one set was COEXIST and the other was contradict. Wasn’t sure about their uses.

  51. GC says:

    It’s as well to note that this is not the first time certain quarters have tried to put Cardinal Pell in gaol. In 2007 greens in the New South Wales state parliament attempted to do just that – and for up to 25 years. This is some of the background that all the pure-in-heart, innocent media persons will probably not find the time or space to tell us. See it here: Pell faces jail for contempt of parliament.

    Some people have been itching to put him away for ages.

    JH, you know of course that the Cardinal is something of an author. Quite a few titles actually by Dr Pell, some of which would probably look good in your library.

    This one looks interesting: God and Caesar.

  52. kathleen says:

    Yes, you are dead right, GC. There has been a consistent witch-hunt against Cardinal Pell for years. He did the ‘unforgiveable’; he crossed swords with the creepy powerful ‘gay lobby’. Only a few cardinals and bishops have had the moral strength and loyalty to the Church to do that. No wonder they want to sink their greatest stumbling block to LGBT aims in the most despicable way possible…. inventing these evil lies about a homosexual abuse past.

    This World Over interview with Robert Royal and Fr Gerald Murray from last week talks about this, plus other current worrying topics, like the invasion of immigrants into Europe:

  53. Mary Salmond says:

    Yes. Saw that interview. I appreciate Fr. Gerald Murray’s insights. Always common sense and by the book. Kathleen, wondered when we would get more comments from you. I thought we had exhausted this thread. But no….

  54. toadspittle says:

    “.. in the most despicable way possible…. inventing these evil lies about (Pell having ) a homosexual abuse past.”
    How can we know they are lies? Revelation? Faith? Investigation?

    “…like the invasion of immigrants into Europe.”
    A very strange attitude – from a member of a Church that considers itself “Universal,” surely?
    Are Catholic immigrants to be banned, along whith the others? Only fair, on the face of it.
    Do we think there are too many human beings in Europe already, regardless of what religion?
    Would we oppose an influx of African Catholics, escaping persecution and death?
    Why?
    Do we bemoan the fact that Mass attendance is falling, but don’t want to see a lot of Africans and Asians filling the pews again? So it would seem.
    hope we get an answer on this.

  55. kathleen says:

    Skiving on your homework again, Toad?
    As “any fule doth know”, the vast majority of immigrants pouring into Europe – for economic motives in the vast majority – are of the Islamic faith. This weakens an already weakened Western Christendom as they impose their rules and creed onto the lands they purposely invade to spread their alien faith system. Why do you think they don’t migrate to any of the large, rich Muslim lands in the Gulf, instead of coming to Europe?

    Wake up and read the writing on the wall!

    But not that you, a self-confessed unbeliever and cynic, care two hoots about Christians or Christendom.

  56. toadspittle says:

    “The vast majority of immigrants pouring into Europe – for economic motives in the vast majority …”
    What other reason would anyone have? Apart from:
    1; Trying to survive.
    2: Hoping to improve their lives, and those of their families.

    (The second is why my family moved from Ireland to a land with an alien religion.)

    You still haven’t said what you would do about the Christian (or Atheist) ones. Would you ust exclude Muslims, 0r simply exclude all immigrants?

    “..they purposely invade to spread their alien faith system…”
    That doesn;t sound like an “economic motive” to me. More a religious one.

    “But not that you, a self-confessed unbeliever and cynic, care two hoots about Christians or Christendom.”
    I’d (slightly) sooner have a Christian tryanny than a Muslim one. But I’d prefer neither. Like we still have now.
    (And put me down as doubter and sceptic, rather than “unbeliever and cynic.”)

  57. kathleen says:

    Toad, your questions are amazingly infantile for someone who worked all their life in the Media.

    But I know you are mightily bored sometimes in your sleepy little town on the Camino, and CP&S is your ‘toy’, or diversion, where you enjoy trying to stir things up a bit.

    Europe needs immigrants; that is a fact. With our low, and in some European countries, very low, birth rate (though I believe that you… and I… have produced above average amounts of offspring) we welcome a controlled and legal influx of foreign workers. On top of this Europe permits a generous amount of humanitarian cases of refugees to enter every year, plus relations of immigrants already established in Europe.

    What is happening now.- and don’t pretend you are unaware of this – is in every sense of the word, an absolute invasion of illegal immigrants (mostly fit young Muslim males) who simply want to cash in to what they see as Europe’s ‘riches’, and who scorn and hate Christians, viewing the West as depraved and an easy target to take advantage of.
    Therefore, yes, I would definitely say that Christian immigrants seeking asylum should be given preference to Muslim ones. Christian immigrants are not likely to harbour fanatical Islamic hatred against us, with all that this implies.

    And tell me just one country where Christian “tyranny” exists! You can’t, because there aren’t any.
    But you don’t possess enough little green fingers to count the countries where Muslim “tyranny” exists…. even in countries that pretend to be “friends” of the West, e.g., Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.

  58. toadspittle says:

    “And tell me just one country where Christian “tyranny” exists! You can’t, because there aren’t any.”
    I didn’t say there were any now, but there certainly used to be – until recently, Spain and Ireland, for two. And virtually all of Europe was, until before the Enlightenment, in varying dgrees. But, thanks to education and general liberalisation, (plus The French Revolution) things are more civilised now. You can even be “gay,” if you want, and not go to jail! And if youdon’t go to chiuch, you won’t necessarily go to Hell. (Or so they say.)

    (Incidentally, did you know that, at one point in Franco’s Spain – it was illegal for womenr to wear underclothing any other colour than white?)

  59. Mary Salmond says:

    As with the Spanish cathedral, this whole conversation is emotional, like a pro life person arguing forever with a non- convinced pro choice person.
    Today’s reading Matt 12:1-8. Jesus says … I desire mercy, not sacrifice… So what do we do here, love the sinner, but hate the sin? Try to convert? ( which seems impossible) Actually it is possible but the apologetics have to be really, really good and sincere, like Jesus’s.

  60. GC says:

    I didn’t say there were any now, but there certainly used to be – until recently, Spain and Ireland, for two.

    They say we’re getting secularist tyrannies instead, now.

    Just a couple of days ago I saw a BBC news report coming in over the satellite about how there are (usually south Asian) people in Birmingham trying to get their adult children to enter into “heterosexual marriages” (!!). Apart from the the state media organ shocking us with this kind of news there is even a state police unit that has been set up to deal with these kinds of unacceptable parents and rellies.

  61. toadspittle says:

    “They say we’re getting secularist tyrannies instead, now.”
    Could be. If so, they must be opposed.
    Like when bakers are told whom they must bake for, or photographers are told they can’t refuse to photograph anyone they choose not to. (horrible sentence!)

  62. JabbaPapa says:

    How can we know they are lies?

    Well, if we were to guess on who’s side of the scandal a man’s sympathetic to, who organised a huge Church Court to judge and punish around 350 clerical abusers, which side do you imagine this would be ?

    That of the abusers who had their just punishments ? Or that of the abused, who were able to see this justice being executed by the Church ?

    PS did you know that last time they tried to attack Pell through the Courts like this, his principal accuser turned out to be a child abuser himself ?

  63. kathleen says:

    “I didn’t say there were any now [Christian tyrannies], but there certainly used to be – until recently, Spain and Ireland, for two.”

    Nothing “certain” about that at all, Toad. In fact it’s a massive exaggeration. My paternal grandparents also came from Ireland. They were devout Catholics whose only bad memories came from the physical hardships all Irish citizens suffered in those days. They had found consolation and hope in their Catholic Faith – the very opposite of “tyranny”.

    The same goes for Spain. The renown Russian author, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn,
    who in an interview during a visit to Franco’s Spain, was shocked to learn that many called Spain a “tyrannical dictatorship”! He saw a peaceful free country, nothing compared to the USSR in those days, and added that people should go to a militant atheistic communist country (like his) and they would quickly change their mind!

    You, as a Humpty Dumpty fan – i.e., “words mean exactly what I want them to mean” – are twisting the meaning of “tyranny” to suit your hang-ups with Christianity.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s