I do not believe The Third Secret of Fatima came to pass with the attempted assassination of John Paul II in 1981

From: The Path Less Taken – Mary O’Regan’s Blog

I may sound alarmist but heart and soul I believe the Third Secret of Fatima has not yet fully come to pass: that the bloodbath foretold by Our Lady when she appeared to Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco has not reached its bitter conclusion which will be marked by a massacre of the Holy Father, bishops, men and women religious and lay faithful. Indeed, I believe that this rude shock is ahead of us, not behind us.

A full 100 years ago this year Our Lady cautioned that if humankind did not turn from sin, repent and offer prayers and penance in reparation all the while honouring her specific requests then the contents of the Third Secret would be our fate.

That faithful day on the hillside Our Lady revealed a vision to the 3 children which was later relayed (fully or edited; many of us are not quite sure) by the last surviving seer, Sr Lucia. Relying on Lucia’s words, our mental cinema can create a surreal sequence of events where the Holy Father in a trembling and down-trodden way threads his path through a city destroyed and littered with dead bodies. Offering prayers for the souls of the dead the Holy Father trudges his way up a steep mountain whereupon reaching the top he falls to his knees before a big rudely hewn Cross and is set upon by soldiers who puncture his body with arrows and bullets. Surrounding the Holy Father are the cadavers of bishops, priests, men and women religious who have been slain in the same way.

This precise chain of events has not yet happened – but I take it literally – for two reasons. Firstly, Our Lady intended her words at Fatima to be taken as portending potentially to a real reality if her requests were not honoured which is my second reason for believing the Third Secret is unfolding and will reach a bloody climax depicted by Lucia’s words. The Third Secret may well happen to the letter; otherwise it is the anomaly among the Secrets and inconsistent with the justice of God who visited the Second World War on humanity which was prophesised by Our Lady in the Second Secret.

I was at school in Ireland in the year 2000 when I was first heard the thought campaign that there were a lot of metaphors and symbols sprinkled throughout the Third Secret, which risks reducing it to a poetic theory. They say the Third Secret came to pass with the attempted assassination of John Paul II in 1981. Truly a bullet did pierce the body of the Polish Pope, but to collapse all the arrows and bullets that ring through the air in the vision given the little children is an exercise in coddling the masses to the point where they relax and refrain from amending their lives in accordance with Our Lady’s wishes. For one thing the Third Secret is carried out in microcosm each day in the Middle East where Christians know a red martyrdom while in our part of the globe thus far we are more likely to know a white martyrdom.

I’ve often felt tempted to allow myself to be lulled into thinking the Third Secret began and ended with the attempt on John Paul II’s life. But it is self-deception when we self-deceive ourselves into thinking humanity has appeased the Heavenly court by having satisfactorily honoured Our Lady’s requests.

Transposing the attempted murder of John Paul II onto the whole of the Third Secret is actually destructive and undermines Our Lady’s warnings and has the deleterious effect of calling into question the First Secret – the vision of Hell – as being more made of metaphor than realism. If Our Lady relied on imagery that would not correspond to real life, what’s to say she didn’t use such imagery when the ground opened up and she gave the children a vision or a look into Hell? Put bluntly, if you pass off so easily the Third Secret as a careless mishmash of scary symbols what’s not to the say the vision of Hell given the children where flames licked the souls of ‘poor sinners’ and the stench of putrefied flesh filled the air is not in the realm of the fantastic?

The Holy Mother of God has never appeared under the title, “Our Lady the Fantasist.” But after all my years attending youth groups and meeting every variety of devout Catholic as a journalist, I’ve known too many people for too long who are in the grips of an actual fantasy that Hell isn’t all that bad, that they can carry on with lives of great sin because if they are sent down it will not be worse than sitting too close to a popping log fire at Christmas. They take Our Lady of Fatima seriously to a point, but do not take her at her word in so far as it will impact them to change their lives. The burning irony is that Hell may be all the more certain for those who in this life think it is made merely of macabre metaphor.

*****

I wrote this column for the Autumn 2017 edition of The Mass of Ages, the quarterly magazine of The Latin Mass Society. You may read the whole magazine here.

If you would like another piece on the apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima; you might like this one where I consider Our Lady’s dire pronouncement, “many marriages are not of God” and reflect on how a marriage may be, “of God”.

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65 Responses to I do not believe The Third Secret of Fatima came to pass with the attempted assassination of John Paul II in 1981

  1. Roger says:

    “..“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. ..”
    Pius XI 6 February 1922 to 10 February 1939
    Our Lady in 1917 Prophetically Named a Future Pope who would be alive in 1939.

    Now that message expressly talks of the Holy Father and suffering and Russia.

    Now consider “..a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father’. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. ..”

    What is this mystical Steep Mountain? Golgotha? Carmel ? The whole vision remind of the Stations of the Cross (the AFFLICTED WITH PAIN AND SORROW) The CROSS is there but the martyrdom isn’t through Crucifixion its a group of soldiers who FIRED BULLETS and ARROWS.
    Soldiers is plural and they are party of an ARMY (not an isolated individual) this is a trained Army. The execution is very strange since its BULLETS and ARROWS.
    “Mystic Arrow” originates from the Latin word “hilaris,” meaning gay or lesbian.
    Bullet ?
    Ehrlich’s discovery of Salvarsan in 1909 for the treatment of syphilis is termed as the first magic bullet

    The question is a specific Pope or THE PAPACY along with the Bishops, priests religious and laity (which is the Church)
    What about this ARMY? Well Masonry is an Army whose specific target is the Church and especially the Papacy. Masonry we know the smoke of Satan entered the Church (Paul VI) and the outing of Masonic Curia.

    But we also know expressly What Our Lady said of events prior to her Triumph.
    “..If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph ..”

    Finally Emmerich visions concur with this 2000 vision.
    What is missing is Our Lady’s explaination of this Vision.

  2. toadspittle says:

    “The execution is very strange since its BULLETS and ARROWS.
    “Mystic Arrow” originates from the Latin word “hilaris,” meaning gay or lesbian.
    Bullet ?
    Ehrlich’s discovery of Salvarsan in 1909 for the treatment of syphilis is termed as the first magic bullet”

    I Agree, Robert. The Pope is more likely to be killed by a Lesbian, than by an arrow.

  3. Roger says:

    This has a physical and a spiritual Truth. Why did Our Lord suffer the Passion? The Sin of the world hence the Bullets and Arrows are surely Mortal SINS and an Army armed and identified with Mortal Sins.
    Who or what killed those corpses? Mortal Sins.
    Our Lady Prophectically showed that in God She knew the Names of the Popes and the length of their Papacy.
    Heavens Popes, NOT I suspect Masonry’s choice. This lesson wasn’t lost a Masonic Curia or on the attempted murder of John Paul II
    The Fath (Truth) is the Law of the Gospels NOT Man’s. Fantasies.

  4. toadspittle says:

    “Our Lady Prophectically showed that in God She knew the Names of the Popes and the length of their Papacy.”
    …But she didn’t seem to know whether Russia would be consecrated to her, or not.
    Rather odd.

  5. Roger says:

    Toad
    You seriously need to start a genuine and sustained prayer Life and get this worldly mentality out of your Head.
    I leave it to you to work Heaven’s conundrum.
    The problem is the loss of Faith in Heaven and that worldly word Diplomacy
    A sign was given 2000 years ago very similar to that give to 20th century. The sign of Jonas.

  6. toadspittle says:

    Yes, Roger – The problem is, I happen to live in the real, worldly, world.
    So do you.
    And one day, you might realise it.
    But I doubt that. You are happy where you are. And that’s nice.

  7. Roger says:

    Toad
    The Real world is that revealed to Us in the Gospels. This is the point of Pilates question to Our Lord What is Truth?
    Truth was standing before Him scourged, crowned with thorns and prepared for the Crucifixion. That is God in all His glory in a world of Sin and who was about to Pay the Price for the Sin of the World so that those who chose Him would LIVE (there is No Life in HELL its an existence of Eternal Reparation for Sin) for ETERNITY.
    This is the REAL world.
    What you see around you doesn’t and won’t last, its subject to decay and is purely transitory. The Solar system won’t last for Eternity and Space is a very violent place. This planet is Unique only in so much as Our Lord the God Man Incarnated and suffered the Passion here.
    The wise man stores His treasures in Heaven BUT so many like the Ancient Egyptians thought they could take the world with them! We enter the world with nothing and we leave with nothing except the treasures we have stored already in Heaven.
    I strongly suggest that you look at the selfless Life of Jacinta for a Child who knew the Real World
    Both Our Lord and Our Lady are alive and living (Body and Soul) and the Invitation is to be with them.
    As for this virtual reality (because that is all it is) and I know perhaps far more than you realise
    BUT its shallow, selfish and full of stress and leaves the Soul Hollow and Empty.

  8. toadspittle says:

    Well, I asked for that.
    “We enter the world with nothing and we leave with nothing…”
    That is undeniable.
    “The Real world is that revealed to Us in the Gospels.”
    How do you know that?

  9. Roger says:

    Because of the Resurrection and those 12 who went out with nothing and Evangelised a pagan world and conquered it Rome. We know the Ancients were aware of Hades (Homer) and the spirits/ghosts (sic Patroclus)
    “..Achilles did not allow for the burial of Patroclus’ body until the ghost of Patroclus appeared and demanded burial in order to pass into Hades ..”
    So the Greeks believed in that the spirit./ghost had memory/intellect survived the death of the Body! But Patroclus couldn’t Resurrect from the Dead!
    Hades wasn’t Heaven.
    With Our Lord He Resurrected from the Dead and more that we through Him would also Resurrect that is Body and Spirit/Soul. Where He is we can be. Our Lady promised Heaven to Jacinta! AND as the children sadi taht Our Lady had fortold a miracle on 13th October 1917. The Sun Danced.
    Now its up to you of course to remain blind and blinkered BUT the three children were shpwn Hell and told of Purgatory and Heaven and as witness by 70,000 the Sun Danced at Fatima.

  10. JabbaPapa says:

    The execution is very strange since its BULLETS and ARROWS.
    “Mystic Arrow” originates from the Latin word “hilaris,” meaning gay or lesbian.
    Bullet ?

    Funnily enough, Lucia in her descriptions used none of these words ; but instead, in Portuguese, “varios tiros e setas” — tiros literally meaning “shots”, which though it usually means “gunfire”, can refer to any manner of projectile weaponry.

    As for “setas”, neither it nor the English “arrow” are “derived” from Latin “hilaris” — which BTW means “joyful”, NOT homosexual — but from Latin sagitta, arrow or bolt ; and from an Old English earh, arrow, itself of either Norse or Germanic origin.

    So you see, your speculations based on certain words in the English text (which is very likely to be a translation of a translation BTW) are not very well grounded in fact.

    One possible translation of “tiros e setas” could BTW be “slings and arrows”, including in its allegorical or metaphorical senses.

    Furthermore, you and this article both casually ignore the FACT that the third secret was provided not as a “prophecy”, but as a “warning”. As something to be avoided, preferably, rather than fulfilled.

    Personally, I think the foiled German plot during WW2 to execute the entire Curia in the middle of St Peter’s Square is a far likelier candidate for what was being warned against than the assassination attempt, though clearly both partake of the same desire to kill the Roman Clergy using gunfire.

  11. JabbaPapa says:

    As for this virtual reality (because that is all it is)

    This is a heretical doctrine of Gnosticism, with some syncretism thrown in from westernised Buddhist ideology.

    But in fact, to the diametric contrary :

    Catechism of the Catholic Church : 337 God himself created the visible world in all its richness, diversity and order. Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine “work”, concluded by the “rest” of the seventh day. On the subject of creation, the sacred text teaches the truths revealed by God for our salvation, permitting us to “recognize the inner nature, the value and the ordering of the whole of creation to the praise of God.”

    338 Nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God’s word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history are rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun.

    339 Each creature possesses its own particular goodness and perfection. For each one of the works of the “six days” it is said: “And God saw that it was good.” “By the very nature of creation, material being is endowed with its own stability, truth and excellence, its own order and laws.” Each of the various creatures, willed in its own being, reflects in its own way a ray of God’s infinite wisdom and goodness.

    You have proposed several ideas directly contrary to Catholic Dogma ; naturally, these are not adequate explanations for the Mysteries of Fatima.

  12. kathleen says:

    Roger @ 17:44

    That was a very moving and wonderful comment about the REAL world you wrote in response to Toad! I felt compelled to read it three times, wanting your words to sink into my soul.

    Indeed, as many, many saintly souls have demonstrated (e.g., the little visionaries of Fatima, Padre Pio, Thérèse of Lisieux, Fr Willie Doyle…) the veil between this world and the next is paper thin. Why then do we blunder around in this ‘vale of tears’ searching for happiness in passing things that will never fulfill us? We are such fools!

    Fatima is a gift for this incredulous age. Through timeless Catholic truths she repeated, Our Blessed Lady came to reveal to Men who had become worldly, self-indulgent, the reality that the Kingdom of God is within us (Luke 17:21).

    Mary O’Regan may be right; perhaps a far greater scourge awaits the Church in this current deteriorating attitude to Chrustian principles of the contemporary world. However we interpret the revealed Third Secret of Fatima, Our Lady’s warnings and prophecies imparted through the visionaries must be taken as a whole. Fatima is simply Catholic to the core. It contains the fullness of Catholic teaching.

  13. Roger says:

    Jabba has highlighted something that has been disturbing me for some time the evidence of the Confusion of tongues (the fragmenting of society and this is happening at all levels, family, state and national )

    Fatima “various nations will be annihilated.”

    Genesis Babel the nations and their languages.

    Luke 21
    [24] “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword; and shall be led away captives into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles; till the times of the nations be fulfilled.”

    Israel 1948 fulfilled the above and notice “till the time of the nations be fulfilled” and then go back to the words of Fatima.

    Fatima 1917 and the World War between the Nations!! followed by a second World War between the Nations! Today a global War called terrorist between the Nations.

    Kathleen Yes Absolutely the fullness of Catholic teaching!!
    1917 A Republican masonic Presidency ruled in Portugal and persecuted the Faith.
    Our Lady took three children and taught them the Faith!

    Genesis has been so attacked that we have forgotten the basics.
    1/ Man as a child of God lost His inheritance because of man’s common ancestors Adam and Eve and was exiled to a place of Penance.
    Later a new Adam and Eve (Jesus and Mary) regained Heaven for their Children but not yet restored Paradise. So Man remains in exile under the Law of Penance (the Cross) but now fortified by Grace and the certainity of Heaven through accepting Our Lord.

    2/ The two Children of Adam and Eve Cain and Abel.
    The Novus Order and Tridentine sacrifices are these not in Cain and Abel?
    Whose sacrifice was acceptable to God?
    Can we not see in the New Adam and New Eve family (sic the Church) the Cain and Abel issue over an acceptable sacrifice all over again?

    Finally the message of Jonas and how 2000 years ago the Jews didn’t do Penance.
    Now look at those words in that vision Penance, Penance, Penance. Wasn’t Our Lady simply repeating Jonas message to this generation?

    Matthew 12
    [39] Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
    [41] The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here.

    This is a chilling gospel Truth concerning Rome and Old Christendom where the Rights of Man has supplanted Gods Commandments. Fatima the message of Jonas and the rejection of Penance has consequences since the later State is seven times worse than the prior.

    Matthew 12
    [43] And when an unclean spirit is gone out of a man he walketh through dry places seeking rest, and findeth none.
    [44] Then he saith: I will return into my house from whence I came out. And coming he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. [45] Then he goeth, and taketh with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is made worse than the first. So shall it be also to this wicked generation.

  14. toadspittle says:

    What are you getting at, Roger?

  15. Roger says:

    Christ spoke in parables and uses parables, it confounds the worldly.
    Heaven reiterates its Truth before the eyes of Man but they are spiritually blind. The dead soul is spiritually blind.

    Look at Heavens response in 1858 to Darwin Lourdes a living picture.
    The sight of St Bernadette washing her Face with slime of the earth at the Grotto in Obedience to Our Lady at the moment of the discovery of the Spring at Lourdes.

    Genesis 2
    [7] And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

    What is Man with a dead soul?
    [19]”And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name.”

    1 Corinthians 15
    [45]”The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.”

    Man is as St Paul tells Us Body,Spirit, Soul

    Toad more prayer and less worldly.

  16. The Raven says:

    Our Lord spoke in parables, not riddles, Roger.

  17. Roger says:

    The release plus private opinions of the 3rd secret of Fatima in 2000
    These opinions had mots serious consequences Sic that Fatima was in the Past this meant
    THAT THE PENANCE ASKED FOR IN 1917 WAS OFFICIALLY NOLONGER NECESSARY!

    The question is was any PENANCE EVER Officially DONE BY A MASONIC MODERNIST ROME SINCE 1958 IN RESPONSE TO FATIMA?

    Oh as for Parables and Conundrums ask the Jews who even after 2000 years deny the Incarnation and are awaiting their Messiah. Don’t they have the same Old Testament?

    As for whether parables and Prophecy’s not riddles I suggest you look at the Mysteries of the Rosary and consider the action of the Holy Ghost has been for now 2000 years in bringing out and teaching (Infallible – sic the Magisterium) the Marian Dogmas; The Immaculate Conception (Fatima and the Immaculate Heart of Mary is a consequence of that Dogma ) and the Dogma of the Assumption.
    The Truth? The Protestant false Opinion that there is nothing more that remains unknown from the Public Revelation 2000 years ago?

    The confusion of Parables and Prophecy’s .
    Mark 8
    [18] “Having eyes, see you not? and having ears, hear you not? neither do you remember.”

    Now as many do actually know in secret but deny in public there is indeed a conundrum at the very heart of that 3rd vision.There are consequences as a result of this prevarication and dithering for 60 years?

  18. JabbaPapa says:

    These opinions had mots serious consequences Sic that Fatima was in the Past this meant THAT THE PENANCE ASKED FOR IN 1917 WAS OFFICIALLY NO LONGER NECESSARY!

    This is NONSENSE !

  19. toadspittle says:

    The question is, surely, is Russia today the worst country in the world?
    No?.
    Then why single it out for conversuon?

  20. Roger says:

    Luke 1 [38]”And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.

    Canticles 4 [12]”My sister, my spouse, is a garden enclosed, a garden enclosed, a fountain sealed up.”
    1958 “Throw open the windows of the church and let the fresh air of the spirit blow through.”
    1972 “from some fissure the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God”

    There was a very charitable Man , a Man, under false appearances. Very good to the poor, but a Traitor to the Truth. His name Judas Iscariot.

    Divine Worship:
    Everything that was in the Church was for Divine Worship, sacred and untouchable, it is a sacrilege to touch what is for the Divine Worship

    Virtual Reality?
    A heavenly house of Man’s creation, an earthly home, a materialist paradise, full of pleasure, of obscenities, of shameful lusts, superflous and unnecessary dinners, of progress, of well-being, equality, oppurtunity, equilibrium, sociology, Priests and Bishops speaking of Sociology. How about the revolutionary Christ, a soldier addressing the Masses.

    BUT
    John 18 [36]”Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence.”

    Luke 12 [31] “But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.”

    John 8 [23]”And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world.”

    Russia? 1917 The Marxist experiment Anti Christian materialist paradise Mark 1
    Rome 1957 Foundation of Marxist Anti Christian materialist paradise Mark 2

  21. toadspittle says:

    “Canticles 4 [12]”My sister, my spouse, is a garden enclosed, a garden enclosed, a fountain sealed up.”
    I rrealise it’s folly to even mention it , Roger – but what has that got to do with anything at all -let alone the 3rd Secret of Fatima?

  22. Roger says:

    Akita Saturday, October 13, 1973 the anniversary day of the last Apparition of the Virgin Mary to the three children of Fatima, that Mary gave to Sister Agnes Her third Message, the most important and serious one:

    “IF MEN DO NOT REPENT and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the Bishops and the priests.

    “THE WORK OF THE DEVIL WILL INFILTRATE EVEN INTO THE CHURCH in such a way that one will see Cardinals opposing Cardinals, Bishops against other Bishops. The priests who venerate Me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres Churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises, and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.

    “The demon will be especially implacable against the souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of My sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will no longer be pardon for them.

    “…Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able to still save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in Me will be saved.”

  23. Roger says:

    John Paul II attempt on His life 13 May 1981

    Akita – Approval of the local Bishop 1984
    After having himself been an eyewitness of the events, and having carefully investigated them for years, Most Rev. John Shojiro Ito, Bishop of Niigata (the diocese Akita belongs to) declared the events of Akita, Japan, to be of supernatural origin, and authorized throughout the entire diocese the veneration of the Holy Mother of Akita, in a long message which he ordered to be read in every parish of his diocese on Easter Sunday, April 22, 1984..
    He said:THE MESSAGE OF ALKITA IS THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA”

    Approval of Rome – 1988
    Bishop Ito went to Rome a third time in June of 1988 to seek the opinion of the Holy See. “I was worried because of the seriousness of the Message,” he said. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, reassured Bishop Ito that he had acted properly, and gave definitive judgement on the Akita events and Messages as reliable and worthy of belief.

    Akita isn’t behind Us neither is Fatima (Akita same message as Fatima) it is ahead and before Us
    Remember what Lucy said about Marriage!!!
    IF SINS INCREASE IN NUMBER AND GRAVITY, THERE WILL NO LONGER BE PARDON FOR THEM

  24. toadspittle says:

    “IF SINS INCREASE IN NUMBER AND GRAVITY, THERE WILL NO LONGER BE PARDON FOR THEM”
    Well, sins are very likely to do thatt – because there are millions more sinners to commit them, year by year. So:
    1: Who is counting? (God, presumably) And since when – 1917?
    If so, when will He reach the cut-off point, and how will we know?
    2: Who decides whether sins are getting “graver,” or not? What sins apparently are, anyway?
    Murder? How so?
    3: It seems to me this threat goes against all concept of an infifitely forgiving God – and thus the whole basis of Christianity and Redemption. But I am thick and ignorant.
    4: Where do the “Sealed Fountains,” come in? You still don’t tell us, Roger.

  25. The Raven says:

    Akita does *not* have the approval of Rome, Roger:

    “Despite claims that Cardinal Ratzinger gave definitive approval to Akita, no ecclesiastical decree appears to exist, as certainly would in such a case.”

    And Toad makes a fair point, the message of Akita, as you give it, does appear to directly contradict the Faith as we have received it from Our Lord.

  26. The Raven says:

    And what are you babbling about re the Rosary and riddles?

    A cycle of prayers taken from the public revelation that ask us to meditate on events and doctrines revealed in that public revelation?

    The Assumption and Immaculate Conception, two doctrines rooted and wholly grounded in sacred tradition and the teachings of the Fathers?

    None of these things support your argument (insofar as it is possible to discern an argument in your writings), Roger.

  27. Roger says:

    Perhaps the Jews solved the conundrum of the Virgin Shall Concieve?
    Perhaps the Jews solved the Conundrum of the Trinity?
    Perhaps the Jews solved the conundrum of Unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood you shall not have life in you.
    Perhaps the Jews accepted the Resurrection?

    Having eyes the couldn’t not wouldn’t see, having ears they wouldn’t listen..

    As for Akita it is down to the Ordinary. Ratzinger as he then was DIDN’T DISAGREE did He.
    No Fatima is and remains a thorn in the side of this Curia it won’t go away will it?
    .
    Of myself it matters little,. But the Marian Dogmas aren’t to be left in a theological tome,

    Our Heavenly Mother is Alive a living breathing reality.

    Why did I suggest Jacinta to Toad as a reality check? The response of the Jacinta?
    Lucy said that “One day I went to Jacinta’s house to stay a little while with her. I found her on the bed, very pensive. ”Jacinta, what are you thinking of?” Jacinta replied, “About the war which will come. So many people will die. And almost all of them will go to hell.” “We must pray a lot to save souls from Hell. So many go there. So many. … So many people fall into hell. So many are in Hell.”

    1960?
    It is has largely been forgotten that there was a world wide atmosphere of expectation about the revelation of the third secret. It the west, Marian devotions would spill out into the street. Even people who did not go to church on Sunday would show up for Marian prayers. It was a crushing disappointment when it was not revealed.

    So what happened to this Marian devotion after the COLDNESS of Rome? Where ever since 1958 has there been the response to Heaven for that Prayer and Penance? The publishing in 2000 interpreted the 1981 shooting with the fulfilment of Fatima? Well why did it take 19 years to publish this instead of May 1918?

    The war in second half of the 20 th century ? Well perhaps seminaries haven’t been closed, perhaps anti Christian global laws haven’t been enacted? The battle between the dwindling Hosts Of Mary and the growing Hosts of Anti Christ.

    What is more important the loss of millions of souls in Eternity or defending the indefencible?

  28. The Raven says:

    Roger, these things aren’t riddles, Our Lord was explicit in His preaching, the Jews simply didn’t believe Him: theirs is a difference of belief, not a failure to decipher a riddle.

    And let’s be wholly truthful about Akita: the sources for what the Holy Father Emeritus did or didn’t say about Akita are very poor and, if he was exercising the teaching authority of the CDF, he would have done so in writing.

  29. toadspittle says:

    “Ratzinger as he then was DIDN’T DISAGREE did He.”
    There is a big difference between agreeing and not disagreeing.
    “Not disagreeing” is doing nothing. Agreeing is taking action.

  30. The Raven says:

    More to the point, Toad, the only accounts we have to tell us that “Ratzinger as he then was DIDN’T DISAGREE did He.” aren’t stunningly credibly sourced: we don’t know what Pope Benedict said, in what context he said it or to whom. In fact, we don’t know whether he said anything at all about Akita.

  31. Roger says:

    At Akita, Our Lady spoke the same words. “The devil will infiltrate the Church.” Cardinal Ratzinger said that the message of Akita is essentially the same as the content of the Third Secret.

    Paul VI The smoke of Satan has entered the Church

    This is the great danger from which Our Lady wished to save the Church and the world.

    Sister Lucy also spoke about the devil infiltrating the Church. “It is painful to see such a great disorientation in so many persons who occupy places of responsibility…. It is because the devil has infiltrated evil under cover of good, and the blind are beginning to guide others, as the Lord tell us in His Gospel, and souls are letting themselves be deceived.”

  32. toadspittle says:

    “This is the great danger from which Our Lady wished to save the Church and the world.”
    Is Our Lady incapable of inplementing what she considers to be right, then?
    Put It this way: Why ask that Russia be consecrated to her – when she knew, from the get-go, it wasn’t going to happen?
    And why tell people to stop sinning – when you know perfectly well they won’t?
    And, to put it yet another way – if you could prevent your children doing self-destructive things even if it meant overriding their free will, wouldn’t you do so?
    I certainly would. (Getting a bit theological here, I fear.)

  33. The Raven says:

    ”Cardinal Ratzinger” is reported to have ”said” by some deeply dubious sources ”that the message of Akita is essentially the same as the content of the Third Secret.”

    Fixed that one for you, Roger.

  34. The Raven says:

    Why ask that Russia be consecrated to her – when she knew, from the get-go, it wasn’t going to happen?

    Or maybe, just to be controversial about this, we should believe the seer, Lucia, when she said that Our Lady’s request had been fulfilled. After all, I think that Lucia had a better handle on what was asked for than Roger does.

  35. Roger says:

    Lucia saw what was happening in Russia and had read about the consecration in Rome. But Father Amorth said that Russia was never mentioned.

    World War II ended with the expansion of Communism across Europe and China. Pius XII was a very strong supporter of the Blue Army and it is against this expectation that the anticipated third secret was to be given to the world. This is history now and what has been done has passed into Gods Justice. The Curia’s response (well there wasn’t a response was there!). I

    This blog expressly refers to whether the third secret was fulfilled 1 st May 1981.
    On May 12, 1982, Sister Lucia wrote a letter to the Holy Father. It was later released when they revealed the Vision of the Bishop in White.
    It consisted of four paragraphs.
    “The Third part of the secret refers to Our Lady words ‘If not, Russia will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated.’
    She continued. “The Third part of the secret is a symbolic revelation, referring to this part of the Message. Conditioned by whether we accept or not what the Message itself asks of us: ‘If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, etc.’
    “Since we did not heed this appeal of the message, we see that it has been fulfilled, Russia has invaded the world with her errors. And if we have not yet seen the fulfillment of the final part of this prophecy, we are going toward it little by little with great strides. If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violation of the rights of the human person, immorality, violence, etc.
    “And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way. On the contrary, it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In His kindness, God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom He has given us, hence people are responsible.”

    Akita
    In 1984, just before retiring at a venerable age, the diocesan Bishop of Niigata, Bishop John Shojiro Ito, in consultation with the Holy See, wrote a pastoral letter in which he recognized as being authentically of the Mother of God, the extraordinary series of events that had taken place from 1973 to 1981 in a little lay convent within his diocese, at Akita, Japan. Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, in June 1988, approved the Akita events as “reliable and worthy of belief”. In fact the Philippine ambassador to the Vatican, in 1998 spoke to Cardinal Ratzinger about Akita and the Cardinal: “personally confirmed to me that these two messages of Fatima and Akita are essentially the same”. Hence in Akita we are dealing with a Church approved intervention of the Blessed Virgin Mary as sure in this respect as Lourdes, La Salette, or Fatima.

    On August 4, 1981, a Korean woman with a terminal brain tumor was miraculously cured after friends and relatives prayed for the intercession of Our Lady of Akita. Her name is Teresa Chun Sun Ho. She received visions of Mary related to the Akita events during her recovery, the first while comatose. Her disease was diagnosed and the subsequent cure verified by medical professionals in South Korea. Yasuda wrote that according to Chun and other October 1983 Korean pilgrims, Chun’s cure “had been declared miraculous by Church authorities of Korea

  36. The Raven says:

    So Fr Amorth knee better than Lucia what had been done and said?

    Really?

    And your repetition about Akita is still unsourced, Roger, and no more credible.

  37. Roger says:

    Father Amorth was present Lucy wasn’t she said that she had read a report. She was aware of what was happening in Russia. Her source was second hand and I do not doubt her word. She simply wasn’t in Rome.
    Why would Father Amorth make this up?

    Raven I am NOT attacking the Church!
    Understand that it would take a miracle to turn back the Global Laws on Divorce, Abortion, Birth Control without even mentioning marriage. Human Rights has replaced God’s Commandments

    So this is where we are today. How then is the Triumph Of the Immaculate to come about?

    You know that during a in flight debriefing very derisory remarks were reported against the Rosary.

    Now I believe in Fatima and Heavens promise. I believe also is not sleeping (as did the Apostles) . I am critical of post 1958 Rome because of the exposure of masons (never denied), and serious sexual offences! I could go on.

    Jacinta saw the loss of souls in Eternity. Our Lord gave His Life for these souls Sin of the World Fatima is very simply the Catholic Faith lived!

    My reality check is that far from the symbolic vision being fulfilled that the Evils of Marxist Russia have spread around the world.

  38. The Raven says:

    Roger, we have three possibilities to consider:

    • Father Amorth was mistaken (wholly possible);
    • Someone deliberately lied to Lucia about what had been done (rather unlikely); or
    • Lucia was told what was done and confirmed that it met the commands of Our Lady (highly likely).

    As the second possibility basically relies on St John Paul having gotten involved in a lie, I think it exceedingly unlikely (as I believe that Fr Amorth was sincere, I don’t include the possibility that he was lying in the list).

    That leaves us with just two possibilities.

    And we can critique the Church without conjuring masons up: the problem of the Church throughout the twentieth century was/is modernism. Under Francis the reactionary modernist faction is in the ascendant and all we can do is wait and pray, lead good catholic lives and evangelise.

    These are the only means that we have to do as Our Lord instructed us to do; they are the tools with which He equipped us.

    We don’t need gnostic riddles in private revelations to tell us this, it is all clearly laid out in scripture and sacred tradition.

  39. JabbaPapa says:

    A heavenly house of Man’s creation, an earthly home, a materialist paradise, full of pleasure, of obscenities, of shameful lusts, superflous and unnecessary dinners, of progress, of well-being, equality, oppurtunity, equilibrium, sociology, Priests and Bishops speaking of Sociology.

    This has exactly nothing to do with any “virtual reality”. These ideologies are real, not virtual.

  40. JabbaPapa says:

    The publishing in 2000 interpreted the 1981 shooting with the fulfilment of Fatima

    No it didn’t — instead, it linked the 1981 shooting with the 1917 warning. You are interpreting this exactly backwards, basically by trying to impose your own fallible logic where it does not belong.

    As for Akita, the “messages” have never been “approved”, it is the apparitions alone that have been accepted as having a supernatural origin, including in the increase in Faith and devotion that they have fostered.

    As for the “messages”, unlike the major Messages of Fatima and Lourdes, they remain entirely private revelations destined not for the Church Universal but for certain particular recipients in their particular circumstances. Their importance has been exaggerated beyond all proper measure.

    Finally, Roger, I have to state again that your personal cogitations, flawed as they are by Gnostic ideology and manifest Protestant/Puritan tendencies, almost Jansenist at its very worst, are deeply incompatible with the Catholicity and the Tradition of the Faith, and all that you could achieve by promoting them would be to lead others astray.

    Please desist from these Errors, for the good of your own soul.

  41. JabbaPapa says:

    Why ask that Russia be consecrated to her – when she knew, from the get-go, it wasn’t going to happen?

    toad, Saint Mary Mother of God is not God, and therefore has not the omniscience that you appear to ascribe to her.

    You are providing her with the attributes of a goddess, not those of a Saint.

  42. JabbaPapa says:

    Raven I am NOT attacking the Church!

    Yes you are.

  43. JabbaPapa says:

    if you could prevent your children doing self-destructive things even if it meant overriding their free will, wouldn’t you do so?
    I certainly would.

    Your continual expressions of disgust against the God-given Grace of Free Will are irrational, toad ; and implicitly self-contradictory.

  44. Roger says:

    Well Raven Who wouldn’t want Russia to return to Christ and Our Lady Of Vladimir?

    The sequence of events that started early 1980′ with the Russian Orthodox Church planning a private celebration of 1000 years of Christianity for the then coming year 1988 (1980 saw Solidarity in Poland) . The Russian Soviet Authorities, who had been Atheist for generations, approaching the Russian Orthodox Church to celebrate the year 1988. Now that I call a miracle.
    The reappearance of the Old Russian Flag suppressed since 1917.

    The intrigues against Rome and especially Pius XII?
    Lt. General Ion Mihai Pacepa is the highest-ranking intelligence officer ever to have defected from the former Soviet bloc. His book Red Horizons

    Rome wouldn’t mention Russia because of the delicate and ongoing Vatican-Soviet agreements – it was never going to mention Russia.

    John Paul II wouldn’t risk what he obviously knew was going on in Poland with Solidarity ( founded on 17 September 1980 ).
    The Consecration of the world to Immaculate Heart of Mary March 25, 1984 . John Paul simply wouldn’t have mentioned Russia because of the delicacy of that movement.
    4 May 1984 – Polish riot police strike at Solidarity
    October 19, 1984, three agents of the Ministry of Internal Security murdered a popular pro-Solidarity priest, Jerzy Popiełuszko.

    The target of Soviet Russia was Pius XII and he is the giant Pope of the 20th century who stood against Hitler was a friend of the persecuted Jews and a foe of Atheist Russia. He also declared the Dogma Of The Assumption.

  45. Roger says:

    From BBC News

    1984: Pro-Solidarity priest is murdered
    Polish police have recovered the body of a Roman Catholic priest an outspoken champion of the banned trade union Solidarity.
    Father Jerzy Popieluszko, aged 37, was kidnapped on 19 October allegedly by three secret police, led by a police captain in the Interior Ministry, who have since been arrested.
    Father Popieluszko had become famous throughout Poland when he drew thousands to his church where he preached against the Communist government.
    In March this year the Pope sent Father Popieluszko a gift via the Bishop of Warsaw after he had attacked the Polish Communist government for banning crucifixes from schools.
    Eleven days ago, he was ambushed on a forest road near the town of Torun, 45 miles (72km) from the reservoir.
    Divers found the priest’s remains in the Wloclawek reservoir, west of the capital Warsaw after a two-day search. The alleged kidnappers had said they had dumped his body in a reservoir on the River Vistula.
    When the news was announced at his parish church, his congregation was silent for a moment and then began shrieking and weeping with grief.
    Thousands more followers gathered at his church, St Stanislaw’s, singing the nationalist church anthem, “May God watch over Poland”.
    Solidarity leader Lech Walesa issued a statement saying: “The worst has happened. Someone wanted to kill and he killed not only a man, not a Pole, not only a priest. Someone wanted to kill the hope that it is possible to avoid violence in Polish political life.”
    He also urged the Polish public to remain calm and said Father Popieluszko’s funeral should be peaceful.
    Both the Polish authorities and the banned trade union movement are worried that national grief will turn to more violent demonstrations followed by repression.
    Even before the priest’s body was found the government had already imposed a state of alert in nine major towns and cities, imposing large fines or prison sentences on groups of demonstrators.
    Yesterday, the Warsaw press published a stern warning issued by Poland’s leader General Jaruzelski during a speech to the central committee which read: “The people’s authority … is capable in the name of social peace of carrying out lawful and determined counterblows to the actions of troublemakers.”
    Martial law, introduced on 13 December 1981, was lifted in March last year but Catholic churches are still the only place where supporters of banned groups such as Solidarity feel they can gather in large numbers.
    According to the Daily Telegraph newspaper, the leader of the Polish Church, Archbishop Glemp, had summoned Father Popieluszko and told him several times “to tone down his sermons in accord with restraints and pressures imposed by the Communist system”. .

    Glemp “TO TONE DOWN HIS SERMONS IN ACCORD WITH RESTRAINTS AND PRESSURES IMPOSED BY THE COMMUNIST SYSTEM”

    This is the background to March 1984 and why Russias wasn’t expressly mentioned! because it would have cost many lives. Father Amorth wasn’t mistaken and he was there. Lucy wasn’t there but had read reports.

    Prior to this Both before and after the 1982 and 1984 ceremonies Sister Lucia insisted that Our Lady had requested nothing less than the explicit public consecration of Russia by the Pope and the bishops and that, accordingly, a consecration of the world would not comply with the Virgin’s request.

    The change in Lucy (and have no reason to doubt her, was because of what we and she could clearly see what was happening) but she only had access to reports Lucy never said that Heaven had told her or confirmed the 1984 consecration.

    Fatima Father Aborth said that St Pio knew the secret of Fatima.

    Padre Pio said that Jesus came to make an alliance with men of good will. It was not exclusively catholic.

    In 1984, the Bishop of Fatima, speaking with an insiders knowledge of the Secret, said that “the loss of faith of a continent is worse than the annihilation of a nation: and it is true that faith is continually diminishing in Europe.”

    This agrees with the logical sequence. First the faith will be lost. Then the world will be punished. He was saying in a guarded way that Europe was losing the faith and that war and natural catastrophe would inevitably follow.

  46. Roger says:

    Matthew 13
    [10] “And his disciples came and said to him: Why speakest thou to them in parables?”
    [11] Who answered and said to them: Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven: but to them it is not given.
    [12] For he that hath, to him shall be given, and he shall abound: but he that hath not, from him shall be taken away that also which he hath.:
    [13]”Therefore do I speak to them in parables: because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.”

    [14] And the prophecy of Isaias is fulfilled in them, who saith: By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive.
    [15] For the heart of this people is grown gross, and with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut: lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

  47. toadspittle says:

    Wonderfull stuff, above.

    “Padre Pio said that Jesus came to make an alliance with men of good will. It was not exclusively catholic.”
    And rightly so.
    Ecumenical. An interesting “fact” about Pio (or, so I humbly(?) suggest.) The shroud of Turin emphasises its veracity, among other things – by the “evIdence,” that ChrIst’s nails were driven in at his wrists, rather than into his palms – as the palms alone would not have been able to support a body’s weight.
    ….Yet, Pio’s stigmata are in Pio’s palms. It”s like he didn’t know about this.
    It all ndicates nothing of significant “proof,” of course. Any more than anything else metaphysical does.
    But still it makes us wonder a bit, doesn’t it?..

  48. The Raven says:

    Roger, the Soviet authorities didn’t initiate the celebration, the Soviet authorities were approached in 1988 and indicated that they wanted a wider celebration than the church had been planning (this was in the context of Perestroika and shoring up Russian national identity).

    I’m sure that there was plenty of öst-politik going on in 1984, but that doesn’t change the analysis of the situation – Lucia tells us that what was done was sufficient; do we disbelieve her? Did someone lie to her?

    And let’s face it, in 1984 they had martial law and were busily murdering priests, they were struggling hard to keep a lid on the Polish populace; mentioning Russia in a prayer would hardly have changed the geo-political situation as far as a bunch of atheist commies were concerned.

    As I keep saying, there is a difference between a parable and a riddle – the meaning of the parables is clear before us, the “hidden truths” that you’re on about are just a load of gnostic nonsense (gnonsense?).

  49. Roger says:

    Well peace and goodness to you and yours. Heavens ways are not those of man and Prophecy is veiled from the sight of the profane. The theatricals of men and the manger of God.

    Toad I am glad that you are taking and noting everything about St Pio. He never left San Giovanni and yet His towering presence casts light in a very dark time for the Faith. There is a literal truth and a greater spiritual truth. St Pio’s stigmata in his hands is correct since the Priests hands (not wrists) are consecrated.

    The one great Marian Pope who stood against Hitler and Communism and whose Charity (love of God and neighbour) extended to the most persecuted and hunted. Pius XII. He was the great evangaliser and instigator of the Faith,

    “the loss of faith of a continent is worse than the annihilation of a nation: and it is true that faith is continually diminishing in Europe.” 1984

    Today this loss of faith has become global and that concurs with the time of the Flood.

  50. toadspittle says:

    ” St Pio’s stigmata in his hands is correct since the Priests hands (not wrists) are consecrated.”
    So, the hands were as near as could be got – to a consectated bit.
    Well, yet more sensational Catholic news. Some parts of the body (Hands)are consecrated – and others (Wrists) are not.
    What about genitals?
    Not? OK. But, if not – why not? They are important for most of us.

  51. Roger says:

    Toad
    This is in poor taste.

    John 20
    [25] “The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

    During ordination a new priest’s hands are anointed with chrism as a sign of consecration and of the change that has been effected in his soul. After ordination the priest uses his hands to hold the Eucharistic species during the consecration, to make the sign of the cross while absolving sins, to anoint the sick and dying, and on occasion to impart the sacrament of confirmation

  52. Roger says:

    Fr. Robert Fox . “Fatima Today, The Third Millennium”
    “..In the summer of 1989, when Sister Lucia began to go public stating that the Collegial Consecration for the conversion of Russia had been accomplished as of March 25, 1984 ..”
    Lucia said: (‘I’ve read reports of the consecration, what the Pope did, what the Bishops did, etc. … I’ve had no way of communicating.”)

    John Paul II didn’t mention Russia in 1984.
    John Paul II himself twice stated on March 25 after the 1984 consecration of the world that the Virgin was still “awaiting” Russia’s consecration, but that he had done all he could “according to our poor human possibilities and the measure of human weakness…”

    One of the Pope’s “closest advisors,” Cardinal Tomko, told Inside the Vatican magazine, Russia was not mentioned in the 1984 ceremony because “Rome fears the Russian Orthodox might regard it as an ‘offense’ if Rome were to make specific mention of Russia in such a prayer, as if Russia especially is in need of help when the whole world, including the post-Christian West, faces profound problems …” Inside the Vatican, November 2000.
    Tomko added: “Let us beware of becoming too literal-minded.” Evidently, Tomko and his collaborators thought themselves more prudent and less “literal-minded” than the Virgin Mary.

    L’Osservatore Romano, March 26-27, 1984 Italian edition, pp. 1, 6 (See Appendix V, p. 246): “Illumina specialmente i popoli di cui Tu aspetti la nostra consacrazione e il nostro affi damento.” (“Enlighten especially the peoples whose consecration and entrusting you are awaiting from us.”); Avvenire, March 27, 1984, p. 11: “We wished to choose this Sunday, the Third Sunday of Lent, 1984—still within the Holy Year
    of Redemption—for the act of entrusting and consecration of the world, of the great human family, of all peoples, especially those who have a very great need of this consecration and entrustment, of those peoples for whom you yourself are awaiting our act of consecration and entrusting.” Avvenire is the official episcopal newspaper of the Italian Bishops Conference.

    Avvenire, March 27, 1984, p. 11.

  53. toadspittle says:

    Yes, Roger – life is often in poor taste, as you will find.

    “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, “…says Thomas.
    Except – if we beleive the Shroud of Turin to be genuine – there were no “prints of the nails” in Christ’s hands. Only in his wrists.
    So, either the Gospel or the Shroud seems to be mistaken.
    As far as I can see.

  54. Roger says:

    Toad
    Actually only the left hand is visible on the Shroud the Right hand is under it,
    But its good you are thinking about the Passion. I have St Pio on your Case

    Incidently the latest evidence on the Shroud below.

    Now researchers have made a discovery which could prove these believers right once and for all.
    Elvio Carlino of the Institute of Crystallography said they discovered evidence indicating the “great suffering” of someone “wrapped up in the funeral cloth”.
    Professor Giulio Fanti, another researcher, said they determined this through tiny particles which had a “peculiar structure, size and distribution”.
    Prof Fanti said: “Hence, the presence of these biological nanoparticles found during our experiments point to a violent death for the man wrapped in the Turin Shroud.”
    The findings were detailed in a new report entitled: “New Biological Evidence from Atomic Resolution Studies on the Turin Shroud.”

    Back to this blog and topic.

    Once you understand Solidarity and the closeness of the Church to that movement (as evidenced in 1984) and the delicacy towards Marxism from 1980 onwards you realise that John Paul II wouldn’t mention Russia in those Consecrations.
    That the Consecration was done is witnessed by Lucia.
    But John Paul II himself confirms that Russia was never mentioned in 1984.
    I leave that to the wise and prudent.

    As for a murdered Pope the most likely Pope would be the unexplained sudden death of John Paul I.

  55. JabbaPapa says:

    “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, “…says Thomas.
    Except – if we beleive the Shroud of Turin to be genuine – there were no “prints of the nails” in Christ’s hands. Only in his wrists.
    So, either the Gospel or the Shroud seems to be mistaken.
    As far as I can see.

    This is a pure translation issue — Koine Greek and Modern English are non-identical in their designations of human anatomy. The Greek word meaning “forearm” meant on the one hand exactly that, but it was mainly used as a measure of length or distance — the cubit.

    OTOH there is no specific native Greek word to differentiate between the hand and the wrist. The Greek concept of “hand” included all between the wrist and the fingertips.

    So, either the Gospel or the Shroud seems to be mistaken

    So toad’s reliance upon translations leads him into mistakes, rather … ;o)

  56. JabbaPapa says:

    As for a murdered Pope the most likely Pope would be the unexplained sudden death of John Paul I

    Good jolly old completely unsubstantiated and baseless conspiracy theories directly attacking the See of Rome, eh ??!

  57. Roger says:

    The attack on the see of Rome? Rubbish!!!
    Go and tell Francis Adultery, Abortion, Homosexuality is a SIN thats Heavens Laws. End of discussion. And you will be pleased to know I won’t be accepting the 30 pieces of silver that it seems others are ready to accept!

    Look at the Masonic List and whom had access to John Paul I
    “..How did the pope die? Of what did he die? … , the Vatican had declared that he’d died of a heart attack with certainty, without an autopsy (never was an autopsy).
    Whereas other witnesses say that the Pope had died in the early morning hours of September 29, and of a pulmonary embolism and not a heart attack.”
    Why all this inexactness in the official Vatican statement?
    The Vatican kept a staunch silence to these questions, a silence which continues to this day.

    So what was the cause of John Paul I’s sudden death on Feast Of St Michael? SILENCE

    Now from time of Yalta Poland was under Soviet Union.
    The Polish rose against Hitler, now Stalin waited he let Hitler slaughter the Polish, then Stalin took Poland and murdered the Polish Officers!
    From Yalta onwards do you seriously think that a Polish Pope would mention Russia by name invoking the Immaculate against Marxist Soviet Union?
    1918 in March that year the Pope sent Father Popieluszko a gift via the Bishop of Warsaw after he had attacked the Polish Communist government for banning crucifixes from schools. Father Popieluszku was murdered by the Marxists October 1984.
    If John Paul II had mentioned Russia in March 1984 my guess is there would have been a massacre across Poland.
    Solidarity appeared in 1980 but must have been known within the Polish Church and John Paul II.
    The attempted assassination 1981 was quite rightly identified with Our Lady Of Fatima.

    Matthew 24
    [37]”And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

    Now as Lucia rightly said in 1989 the Consecration had been done. But not by John Paul II (thats from his own admission)

  58. JabbaPapa says:

    The attack on the see of Rome?

    aaaaaaand let’s blthely post several more paragraphs of such attacks whilst denying making them !!

    a) Go and tell Francis Adultery, Abortion, Homosexuality is a SIN thats Heavens Laws. End of discussion. And you will be pleased to know I won’t be accepting the 30 pieces of silver that it seems others are ready to accept!

    oooooh, not. at. ALL a conspiracy-theory attack upon the Roman Pontiff and therefore his See, eh ?

    b) Look at the Masonic List and whom had access to John Paul I

    More of the same — good jolly old conspiracy theories, eh ?

    ..How did the pope die? Of what did he die? …

    Why all this inexactness in the official Vatican statement?

    Because of the great big Masonic World Government MJ12 conspiravy to surrender control of our planet to the grey aliens, obviously !!

    More details of this dastardly plot to follow, ad maximam nauseam

    So what was the cause of John Paul I’s sudden death on Feast Of St Michael? SILENCE

    RUBBISH — it is clearly established that the cause of death was natural.

    Only some loony conspiracy theorists believe otherwise.

  59. toadspittle says:

    “The Greek concept of “hand” included all between the wrist and the fingertips.”
    So does English. But we make distinctions berween parts of the hand – wrist, palm of hand, thumb, fingers, etc.
    And so do the “native” Greeks.
    to chéri, ton karpó, tin palámi tou cherioú, ton antícheira, ta dáchtyla
    That”s the list I give above. And I’d be amazed if ithe “Ancient” Greeks didn’t do the same. But then, I’m frequently amazed on here.

    “So toad’s reliance upon translations leads him into mistakes, rather … ;o)”
    No doubt it does. Along with everyone else who can’t speak 2,000-year-old Aramaic, or Ancient Greek.
    But what alternative do we ignoramuses have?
    There is one – don’t trust any of it.

  60. The Raven says:

    Actually, Toad, the terms that you’ve set out there (with the exception of δακτύλιος, “fingers”) aren’t really much in current usage and χέρι can mean any part of the arm, not just the forearm. Unless one was reading a medical textbook, it is unlikely that these terms would be encountered at all.

  61. JabbaPapa says:

    That”s the list I give above. And I’d be amazed if ithe “Ancient” Greeks didn’t do the same. But then, I’m frequently amazed on here.

    toad would do well to reflect on the fact that the sheer size and detail of the vocabulary of Modern English is quite exceptional, and is hardly reproduced in other modern languages, let alone any Ancient ones.

    The Koine Greek vocabulary, though it is large enough, simply cannot compare to the vastness and breadth of our English vocabulary ; and this discrepancy can lead to translation difficulties in Biblical translation, as some more general or ambiguous terms may only be translatable, elegantly anyway, into some more precise language, which in turn can lead to some false impressions in readers of the translation(s).

  62. toadspittle says:

    “…and this discrepancy can lead to translation difficulties in Biblical translation,”
    FaIr comments from Raven and Jabba. And I cheerfully admit I’m no linguistuc expert.
    But the clear message is: “Don’t assume whatever you read in the Bible is true. It maye be mistranslated.” I’ll go along with both of them on that.
    …That and the idea that Padre Pio had his Stigmata in the wrong place.
    Or rhe Shroud of Turin is inaccurate. Or possibly both. I don’t know.
    But, as Roger points out, it’s good to see I’m taking an interest.

  63. The Raven says:

    No, Toad, the message is “don’t build huge edifices on single words that have been translated out of a thoroughly alien language”.

  64. toadspittle says:

    ….And an excellent message it is.

  65. Moss says:

    I too agree with this stand. The church across the world has not fulfilled her command to pray the rosary on mass, offer penance and no longer offend. Yes there are pockets that have, however, not taken seriously enough to be instituted by each and every priest, bishop, cardinal, and each pope. The laity that discern, are not so naive to believe the papal propaganda. The laity need to demand Fatima be implemented by their Bishops. 2018 is meant to be preparation for 2020 Plenary Council . . . to listen to laity supposedly. They refuse to listen to Our Lady. Im sure they don’t intend to listen to us.

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