Off Topic Forum

This is the usual standard of debate here

This is where all our commenters who wish to discuss matters pertaining to the Faith, this blog, life the universe and everything etc. can debate and argue to their heart’s content, without detracting from discussions under each of our headline posts.

As of 18th May 2015, this is an experimental initiative, and may be withdrawn if it lends the blog a nasty smell.

182 Responses to Off Topic Forum

  1. Brother Burrito says:

    All you compulsive CP&S commenters are a bunch of reprobates who need to get lives!

    Go on, have a pop at me, if you think you’re hard enough!

  2. Tom Fisher says:

    Go on, have a pop at me, if you think you’re hard enough!

    Modern medicine BB:

  3. toadspittle says:

    Welcome to to The Play Pen – where we pompous gits can smack one another round the head without disturbing the adults – who are gainfully occupied agonising over altar rails, whether or not we will have sexual organs in Heaven, and what Gay Irishmen should be doing with their sexual organs on Earth.
    Good idea, Burronissimo.

  4. Brother Burrito says:

    TF, that’s so true to life, it’s not true.

  5. ginnyfree says:

    I like the ones with more money then sense. Perhaps a career as a wallet lightener for me. First I’ll check my horoscope to see if career paths changes will pan out. Better safe then sorry.

  6. toadspittle says:

    Very shrewd, Ginny.
    We should always consult the stars before embarking on exciting new ventures. One never know, do one?
    “Men born under Aries
    Are usually fairies.”

    …So, beware, when selecting a mate.

    I like it here, Off Topic.
    Because, with a reasonably clear conscience, I can tell my badly behaved comrades that I’m re-reading a great, semi-forgotten, classic, “South Wind.” Not to be missed.
    In which a character announces himself as standing for, “Paganism and nudity and laughter,” which, as I read it, realised it sums Toad up to a “T.”
    (Wouldn’t dream of admitting that in the main body of the kirk, of course. Might upset the Gay Catholics – and we can’t have that, now – can we?)

  7. JabbaPapa says:

    I’ve never seen an experiment such as this one succeed, except by accident one that I ended up running myself.

  8. kathleen says:

    A great idea, and all worked out by our computer-savvy BB! I hope the experiment works. The ‘Catholic Truth’ blog has one too under the title ‘General Discussion’ that seems to be successful.

    Perhaps this will now put an end to the derailing of other articles by completely off-topic comments that often end up in a sort of ‘scrum’. (Going slightly off-topic wouldn’t matter, but some do really go down numerous ‘green lanes’ that lead far away from the original subject of the post.)

    It also gives anyone who comments the chance to start the ball rolling on something he/she might want to bring up, but cannot find a suitable article available to do so. Thanks BB.🙂

  9. toadspittle says:

    It would be nice if there was some way if we could know if and when there was a new comment.
    But we can’t have everything.

    “I’ve never seen an experiment such as this one succeed, except by accident one that I ended up running myself.”
    So, Jabba, what do you advise?
    …Go for the accident?

  10. JabbaPapa says:

    So, Jabba, what do you advise?
    …Go for the accident?

    The accident in question is very, very unlikely to be reproduced.

    The two basic problems with the notion are that 1) “off-topic” actually means “no topic”, leaving everyone with no subject of conversation and 2) these parts of websites have a strong tendency to be troll magnets

  11. Brother Burrito says:

    I cannot get this ear-worm out of my head. Yes, I confess, I am a progressive/symphonic rock-a-holic.

  12. Brother Burrito says:

    Toad, the whole point of this page was to divert new visitor’s attention away from the off topic comments, which otherwise used to appear in the “Recent Comments” widget at top right.

    This is the least worst solution I can think of.

    Jabba, we Catholics all live in reasonable hope of success.

  13. Brother Burrito says:

    It would be good if this Forum became like a ‘pub’ for regular visitors to chat informally.

    Right back in 2010, a companion blog to this one was started with the same intentions:

    https://yodaz.wordpress.com/

    but sadly did not attract enough customers.

  14. Brother Burrito says:

    I am a big fan of Fr Robert Barron, and I am so glad that he agrees that “The Matrix” is one of the most spiritually intriguing films of the last 20 years:

  15. toadspittle says:

    Haven’t been to the pictures for about 15 years, now – but really must get to see The Matrix in the computer. Clearly of great cultural significance. (and I’m not being ironic.) Did watch “Birth of a Nation,” the other day, but only to write a piece about its centenary. Utterly horrible film.

    Top of Toad’s “hit parade” today:

  16. Rushintuit says:

    Google “Bernardino Nogara”. Six days after the ratification of the Lateran Treaty, Our Lady of the Rosary formally requested the consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart. Coincidence?

  17. ginnyfree says:

    Toad, I think they cooked up this forum with you in mind…………

  18. ginnyfree says:

    And several others come to think of it……………..

  19. toadspittle says:

    Nice to think so, Ginny.
    Equally nice to have a tranquil retreat where one is not constantly importuned by gay Irishmen or their adversaries.

  20. kathleen says:

    @ Rushintuit

    Wish I had more time to discuss this interesting phenomenon with you, but cannot do so right now. Perhaps at a later date.🙂

  21. toadspittle says:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/picturesoftheday/11614120/Pictures-of-the-day-19-May-2015.html

    This little chap has no immortal soul and so won’t be going to heaven with Tony Blair. How unlucky can you get?

  22. Rushintuit says:

    It would be hard to discuss a topic like the Vatican Bank because information is scarce. The Bank could account (no pun) for Pope Pius XI being mentioned by Our Lady in connection with WWII, a possible motive for the untimely death of Pope John Paul I and explain the tens of millions of dollars (hundreds?) Pope John Paul II sent to the Solidarity movement in Poland. It’s still all just speculation and seems like a conspiracy theory to most.

    David Yallop wrote a book entitled, “In God’s Name”. He looked into the sordid past of the Vatican Bank. The book was summarized at the Abbe de Nante’s website:

    http://crc-internet.org/our-doctrine/catholic-counter-reformation/murder-john-paul-i/1-murder-vatican/

  23. Tom Fisher says:

    BB,

    This is a really good idea — even if it is used in frequently it’s a great thing to have.

    People just need to remember that comments here don’t show up in the recent comments thread (for good reason)!

    Has anyone watched Fr. Barron’s TV series ‘Catholicism’? I’ve heard good things but it does cost a wee bit.

  24. JabbaPapa says:

    Has anyone watched Fr. Barron’s TV series ‘Catholicism’? I’ve heard good things but it does cost a wee bit.

    It’s very well shot, so quite watchable simply due to its aesthetic qualities, but as for content you can get nearly everything in there from watching 3 or 4 of the longer talks by Fr Barron on youtube.

    It’s basically conceived as a method of re-evangelising a US audience in the face of their frequently shoddy religious education ; which is a laudable initiative in and of itself, but it does mean the content’s a bit “lite” if your own religious education isn’t so shoddy.

  25. Tom Fisher says:

    I don’t want to ‘troll’, so I’m putting this here instead of under the latest post. Does anyone else find Michael Voris a little bit* over the top, and just a tad** paranoid? Almost certainly not, he’s very popular here. Just had to get that off my chest.

    *IMMENSELY
    **EXTREMELY
    🙂

  26. Rushintuit says:

    ONE day in 1947, while attending a theatrical reproduction of the life of Joan of Arc on the square of the Cathedral of Rouen, Colonel Charles Boulanger experienced a deep shock : she whom, like most Frenchmen, he had always imagined to be holy and pure, fearless and above reproach, was represented as weak and timid, dreading the stake and denying – temporarily, but still denying – her Voices and her mission. He could not accept this idea. He dedicated ten years of an already full life to the systematic analysis of all the archives available on the subject, leaving nothing to chance, in order to uncover the whole truth…

    http://crc-internet.org/our-doctrine/national-restoration/saint-joan-of-arc/true-trial/i-condemnation/

  27. JabbaPapa says:

    Jacques Rivette’s very lengthy two-part Jeanne la Pucelle treats this problem with great sensitivity.

    It is not uncommon for Saints and visionaries to experience moments of doubt and weakness (Saint Bernadette’s writings on this subject are noteworthy) — indeed, we have the Example of the Lord’s own experience of human frailty in the night before the commencement of His Passion.

  28. Tom Fisher says:

    St. Therese of Lisieux is an especially moving example too

  29. toadspittle says:

    Well, Joan was French, wasn’t she? God personally sent her a sword made in Heaven with which to chop off English heads. There’s a message, of some sort, there, (I reckon.)
    Possibly that the French are different.
    On the Camino de Santiago, everyone else I encounter greets me with, “Buenos Dias.” The French all say, “Bonjour.”
    ….Go figure.

  30. Rushintuit says:

    A good meditation on the Crown of Thorns:

    3.5 THE MAN ON THE SHROUD AND JESUS WERE CROWNED WITH THORNS
    © Stephen E. Jones
    Introduction The man on the Shroud was crowned with thorns[1], as the Gospels record that Jesus was[2].

    http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/the-shroud-of-turin-35the-man-on-shroud.html

  31. kathleen says:

    This is a most informative and fascinating link Rushintuit – thank you very much. Of special interest to me was the explanation of the `reversed 3′ bloodflow from the Crown of Thorns, evident and visible on the Shroud, something I had never heard about before.

  32. Rushintuit says:

    You may also enjoy the Shroud Scope which alloys you to examine the Shroud of Turin at different magnifications and highlight various Shroud features:

    http://www.sindonology.org/shroudScope/shroudScope.shtml

  33. johnhenrycn says:

    Here’s the Alberta Hunter song which I mentioned on Kathleen’s 09 April 2014 post. Not exactly a Catholic song, but definitely Off Topic, so I thought it might be allowed ??😉

  34. johnhenrycn says:

    Such a wonderful woman was Alberta Hunter. For a lesbian. But here’s my sign-off tonight, by a real woman, Nancy LaMott (RIP):

  35. toadspittle says:

    What a wonderfully indecent song by Alberta Hunter, JH. Thanks for that.
    I’d never have the noive to put it up – even on “Off.”
    (I think it might have bern a Bessie Smith number originally )

  36. johnhenrycn says:

    For Toad and his current wife:

  37. johnhenrycn says:

    But no – Where Is Your Heart is not the song I wanted Rebecca (?) to hear. The real story between her and Toad is this one by dear Nancy LaMott –Listen To My Heart:

  38. toadspittle says:

    Rebekah, JH. (Fundamental Christian parents, non-drinkers, non-sinners, non-blasphemers – non, well – anything reasonable. I have ruined her, and made her laugh.)

    Sad, but I couldn’t hear hardly a word from the depths of La Mott (if you’ll pardon the expression)
    But I doubt if I’d have cared much for it . A bit too “show-bizzy” for me, from what little I could gather.
    Going mutt, as well as daft, is Toad.
    Still, as always from JH, a kindly thought.

  39. toadspittle says:

    Just put a clip from”Some Like It Hot,” on the grown-up CP&S. Solves the whole “gay marriage” farce in a nanosecond, whatever that is. And it got me wondering what the funniest few movie minutes are? Any offerings?

  40. Tom Fisher says:

    This sequence has to be my all time favourite: I think it helps that I’m scared of heights

  41. toadspittle says:

    Both funny and scary. Rather like some of our chums on CP&S?

  42. toadspittle says:

    Toad has a theory that “Alice” is all about religion, and what Carroll is getting at here is the Catholic, who gradually fades away until, by 2015, only the grin remains.

    Little Spanish ‘pun’ or whatever – There is one animal in Purgatory – the cat.
    Geddit? Remember it’s Spanish. Kathleen knows. I’ve run this before.

  43. toadspittle says:

    Tati the Trad defeated by Modernism. A lesson to us all.

  44. johnhenrycn says:

    Toad, on your recommendation (a few months back) I bought Tati’s Les Vacances de M. Hulot. Hmm…Remind me to take your future recommends with a large dose of – not just a grain of – salt. If I was a film historian, I would grant it its place as precursor to Mr Bean, but since I’m not one, it wasn’t worth the money I paid to get it.

  45. toadspittle says:

    Well, I’m surprised, and a little sorry, to hear that, JH. All a matter of taste, though.

  46. toadspittle says:

    …..What did you think of the clip above, from “Mon Oncle”?

    Or there’s this:

  47. johnhenrycn says:

    I just don’t get it, Toad. Not saying there is nothing there to get, but maybe I would have had to been born in the UK in the early 40s to appreciate Tati. Mind you, he could be the cinematic equivalent of Saki (i.e. Hector Hugh Munro) who I do enjoy.

  48. johnhenrycn says:

    …it’s not that I dislike B&W cinematography:

  49. johnhenrycn says:

    Sorry, Toad: don’t know what happened there.

  50. toadspittle says:

    I know the feeling only too well, JH.

    Possibly all the little cogs and wheels under the keyboard are jammed up with toast crumbs.
    I’m no good at machinery either. Can’t even understand wheelbarrows.
    Which, out here, is a serious drawback.

  51. toadspittle says:

    Loved Saki when I was a toadpole, JH –
    “She was a good cook – as cooks go, and as cooks go – she went.” Didn’t look that up – I think it’s about right.
    “He reddened and went to America,”
    does it then go on.. “Thus conscience doth make cowboys of us all.”
    That kind of thing, and Perelman, and Wodehouse, etc., made me what I am. For good or worse. No doubt the latter.

    Not many people seem to look at “O.T.” Pity.

  52. johnhenrycn says:

    Happy Father’s Day, Bruce😉

  53. kathleen says:

    This is not worthy of a post of its own, so I am posting it here instead.
    Just in case anyone is still drinking this detritus, take a look at Coca-Cola’s perverted advertising campaign:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/10/coca-cola-happiness-ad_n_7493530.html?cps=gravity_2891_2004631293908551325

    “We choose ‘happiness’ over ”tradition”” (meaning CATHOLIC ‘tradition’, naturally). So to choose a life of sodomy, immorality and licentiousness that will eventually lead one to lose one’s soul is “happiness”?!?! The only one who should be ‘happy’ here is the Devil, devouring more and more souls that were once created for happiness with God.

  54. toadspittle says:

    Why should it mean CATHOLIC tradition, “naturally”? The ad is running in “Protestant” Holland.
    Of course we can claim contemporary Holland is no more “Protestant” than it is “Catholic” – but that’s a separate issue.
    However, to ask if we’d prefer happiness to tradition is like asking if we’d prefer a fish to a bicycle. …It’s possible to have both at once.
    But ad agencies are not likely to worry unduly over such arcane questions of logic.
    Just get the stuff off the shelves.

  55. toadspittle says:

    OOOps – belay the first bit of that last comment – Holland, in 2012, was 29% Catholic and only 19% Protestant.
    (…42% no religion at all, and the rest Muslims, etc, and whatever.)
    I’m a bit surprised at the first two figures, as I’d always assumed Holland was nominally, mainly protestant.
    But it should teach me to always check first, if I can. (Probably won’t, though.)

  56. GC says:

    The little gods, but no real dogs in heaven:

  57. johnhenrycn says:

    A sublime and moving story. I don’t intend going to YouTube to (possibly) garner further info on the narrator, but he reminds so much of why I love listening to and conversing with British people, of which he, with his understated civility and lightly worn humility is a quintessential example.

    I still have the cremains of my dear Amos who I tearfully held in my arms during his last day on earth 14 years ago. No dogs or other non-humans in heaven? Quite possibly not as beneficiaries of the Beatific Vision, but I won’t be surprised if they are part of that vision.

  58. toadspittle says:

    He’s an Aussie ( or from N.Z) JH. But I agree .Hadn’t heard the story before. But does the dog then get to Heaven?
    Reminds me of a story I’ve told on here before:
    A Jesuit is trying to convert a Mongol chief.
    “If you become a Catholic, you will go the Heaven when you die.”
    “How many horses will I have there?”
    “None.”
    “Then what’s the point of going?”

  59. toadspittle says:

    Nope, Not even allowed a word on “Off Topic.”

  60. kathleen says:

    That is not true, Toad. All your recent comments but one (as far as I know) have been published, even though there might have been a wait of a few hours sometimes I’m afraid, owing to none of us being on-line to ‘approve’ them at the time they appeared.

    It’s not our fault you have been put into ‘Moderation’ again; if we could trust you not to write (sometimes) blasphemous comments that are unacceptable for a Catholic blog, it would never have happened in the first place.
    Inanities, the same old endless questions (that, I might add, have already been fully answered) and even nonsense in small doses, we groan and put up with… but attacks on the Most Sacred are VERBOTEN.

  61. toadspittle says:

    I have tried to write at least six comments since the moderation. I don’t mind that, but comments I’ve written vanish as soon as I hit the “post comment” button. No doubt this will, as well

  62. Brother Burrito says:

    Toad, we have let through almost all of your comments “since the moderation” just as Kathleen says. Is it a WordPress problem that is swallowing up your comments? Several readers have reported random comment loss. Sorry you are having problems.

  63. Brother Burrito says:

    Grrrr

  64. Brother Burrito says:

    I remember, as a mere nipper, scrabbling through my elder sister’s 7″ singles and finding this thing by the 1910 Fruitgum Company:

  65. Tom Fisher says:

    Hi BB, is Toad in ‘pre-moderation’? Not sure what ‘moderation’ means. I’m sure he deserves it.. Maybe

  66. toadspittle says:

    “Moderation In All Things,” is Toad’s motter, Tom (Not really. Far from it!).
    However, JH takes me to task for liking Old Blue Eyes. In fact, I don’t care at all for late Sinatra – all that Ring-a Ding-Ding crap. But when young, singing with Dorsey, he was very good indeed (In my arrogant opinion)

  67. Brother Burrito says:

    I am eternally grateful to Sinatra for stating plainly the path of Life:

    “be do, be do, be do”.

  68. ginnyfree says:

    No, Brother Burritto. Sadly you have it backwards. It goes like this: do be do be do be. BIG difference. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  69. http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-day-of-great-battle.html#more
    For a recent (12/4/16) revelation by the visionary of Tre Fontane about the state of the Church.

  70. Brother Burrito says:

    This perfect little comedy deserves viewing. It is from a 1962 episode of “The Andy Griffiths Show” and features great performances from AG, Don Knotts and the beautiful, talented Barbara Eden.

    I wish TV was made as good as this nowadays. This episode was also the last appearance of Dick Elliott, who plays the short fat Mayor, who died shortly after filming. God rest his soul.

  71. johnhenrycn says:

    Yes, Andy of Mayberry, RFD, as it was also called at some point, was such a sweet, innocent portrayal of small time life, even if most of the characters living there must have been Southern Baptists. I compare it with the old Coronation Street which also began in the early 1960s. The quality of writing and character development on that Panorama (?) program was vastly superior to the Mayberry one in my view, but both fill me with pleasant memories.

  72. johnhenrycn says:

    Nuts🙂

  73. johnhenrycn says:

    Hey! I’d hoped some kind mudderator would correct my bold word at 21:31. Probably no one left here who knows how. Hmmm…
    [The Moderator – We’re moderators, not sub-editors, John Henry!]
    Forgive me for being off topic: A week ago I heard from a close and dear relative that an adopted IVF child of said relative has been located by an IVF half-sibling of said child who is almost the exact same age as said IVF child. Not only that, but they both have, quite fortuitously, the same “Christian” name. Clear? Their biological father is from Finland. Perhaps the autonomous Åland Islands where they celebrate developments like that, but I’m not sure. I’m thinking of suggesting this to Jeffrey (Baron) Archer as a story idea, but thought I should first offer it to my blog compatriot Roger/Robert who also has a real gift for words.

  74. Brother Burrito says:

    “To ignore the poor is to despise God” -Pope Francis.

    Yup.

  75. mmvc says:

    “To ignore the poor is to despise God” -Pope Francis.

    But who is anyone to judge who does or does not “despise” (“hate”!) God? Besides are the spiritually poor not so much worse off than the materially poor? Much emphasis is placed on relieving material poverty – and rightly so – but should the focus on countless endangered souls not be even greater? Where are the rallying calls to help those who have turned their back on God and His Church?

  76. kathleen says:

    Oh, well said, well said, mmvc!

    “The poor will always be with you”, Our Lord said (referring to the materially poor) when He then went on to emphasise how honouring God was of far greater importance. One look at the world shows how those who are poor (materially) – thus less stressed and preoccupied in guarding and administering their ‘goods’, less self-indulgent and over fed – are far more likely to be filled with the love of God in their uncluttered hearts.
    Our thousands of holy Syrian, Iraqui, Nigerian martyrs (and in many other places), where Christians are being viciously massacred and persecuted, are indeed the ‘richest’ among us! Their tremendous sacrifices will earn them an eternal crown in Heaven.

    Yes, the real poor are those who are ignorant of their Catholic Faith, the un-catechised, those who have been led astray by the world, the flesh and the devil. They have lost the only thing that matters, for “what does it prophet a man…etc.?”
    They are ones we should be seeking out to help lead them home, and thus relieve their pitiful poverty.
    Was Pope Francis referring to this large group of ‘poor’ I wonder? Hmmm.

  77. toadspittle says:

    Seems like even the Off Topic is Off Limits to Toad. How can you justify killing his stuff and still claim to be fearless Catholics? Have you no consciences?

    (I’m assuming you have killed my reply to Kathleen’s amazing comment on being poor. If you haven’t – Oops, sorry. Just in case you have done so in error, here it is again. Edited, as I said.)

    “One look at the world shows how those who are poor (materially) – thus less stressed and preoccupied in guarding and administering their ‘goods’, less self-indulgent and over fed – are far more likely to be filled with the love of God in their uncluttered hearts.”
    Two looks at the world show poor people incredibly stressed – over how they are going to feed their families, buy them some kind of cheap coat to keep off the rain, and shoes for their cold feet a bit dry, let alone pay the crippling rent (they can never afford to buy) to provide a warm safe, place for them to live. Which is how people live from day to day – if they are poor.
    How uncluttered is your heart, Kathleen? Maybe “cluttered” with Garabandel, eternal damnation, and the like? Ever considered “uncluttering” your life – by selling your house in Surbiton, and giving the money to the poor, then living an “uncluttered” life, full of the love of God, alongside them in a cardboard box in a doorway?
    No? Neither have I. Far too selfish.

    God bless, Toad.

  78. Brother Burrito says:

    Toad,

    You are awful, but I like you:

  79. toadspittle says:

    Thank you mucho, Bro B.
    People used to say, “You’re awful – but I like you,” to me.
    Now they say, “I like you, but you’re awful.”

  80. Brother Burrito says:

    http://www.toon.is/looney-tunes-chow-hound-video_7d744572d.html

    The best Looney Tune cartoon ever produced. I can’t think what brought it to mind😉

  81. Brother Burrito says:

    I thought Fatimist ® was an aerosol product for overweight people that either:
    1) Helped with weight loss
    2) Provided cool relief in the heat
    3) Sweetened their scent
    Now I will have to update my vocabulary😉

  82. Brother Burrito says:

    If you need to laugh, you could do worse than watch this episode of “King of the hill”

    If you are unfamiliar with this series, here is a “making of” documentary:

    Mike Judge was raised a Catholic. I don’t know his present state but he is clearly a genius nonetheless. God love him.

  83. Brother Burrito says:

    Being Catholic means being not afraid. If you are truly fearless, then you can watch this disturbing video about bacha bazi and realise that sinfulness has the whole world in its grip, though not forever.

    https://vimeo.com/11352212

  84. ginnyfree says:

    May St. Don Bosco make intercession for them and all the children in Afghanistan. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  85. Tom Fisher says:

    So, that was quite something. Any CP&S commentators want to share how they voted, and why?

  86. The Raven says:

    Remain, Tom. Mainly because (in no particular order):

    • I work in finance and many of my clients trade across Europe and would find it much harder to trade generally;
    • I harbour vaguely defined ambitions to move to Spain at some distant time in the future and would be happy with EU freedom of movement;
    • My brother’s client-base is mainly composed of city types and that might threaten his ability to work (he is a builder, already has one child and has another on the way);
    • My cousin is a research scientist, who relies on EU funding and a supply of EU colleagues and students;
    • I recognise the economic benefit that we enjoy from having eastern european people come to the UK to work in a very wide variety of industries (not just low paid jobs, but also as medics, technicians etc);
    • From what I could see, the leave campaigners’ real arguments and motivations were little more than a stupidly romantic view that our liberties would be enhanced by leaving the EU – a misty eyed appeal to an imagined golden age of freedoms, highly reminiscent of the sort of guff trotted out by some US politicians when they use the Constitution to paper over their base motivations for wanting to dodge a debate about gun-control or health care;
    • I was frankly repulsed by the less-than covert racism of the leave campaign, the constant harping on immigration;
    • I was bored with the constant conflation of our obligations under other international treaties and the EU – people (and politicians who should have known better) constantly complaining about the European Court of Human Rights (not part of the EU structures) and their habit of blaming the EU for decisions taken in London by our own politicians and civil servants (particularly extending to benefits and regulation);
    • I travel in Europe personally a fair amount and like things like the abolition of roaming tariffs, visa-free travel and lack of border control;
    • the proposals for banking union would have made my life far easier – being able to get money across borders using my own bank and without paying hefty charges would have really helped my own business affairs greatly;
    • I recognised that Brexit was going to cause us economic pain, both in the short term and, potentially, permanently; and
    • I can’t pretend to be a Euro-enthusiast, but, as a lawyer and finance professional, I know a fair bit about the degree of influence/interference that the EU has over the affairs and business of the UK, and, from what I had seen, it was minimal.

    I’m sure that there were other reasons too, but you get the picture.

  87. toadspittle says:

    Toad goes along with all of Raven’s points. Plus…

    “I harbour vaguely defined ambitions to move to Spain at some distant time in the future and would be happy with EU freedom of movement;”

    …Quite. (An Irish passport for Toad. most like.)

  88. kathleen says:

    I would not have voted for Brexit if I lived in the UK! The result is disappointing. “Better the devil you know… ”

    I was celebrating the eve of St John the Baptist’s birthday on the beach last night with family and friends – a big feast here. At the start of the count of votes we heard the result looked like “Remain” would win. I was shocked to see the swing to “Leave” was winning when we got home! I stayed up late listening to the BBC World Service as it became increasingly clear that the UK was out of the EU.

    Yes, The Raven sums it all up so well. However, I believe it was not immigration from Eastern European countries that troubled the voters much and swung the vote in favour of Brexit, but Brussels’ forcing of EU countries to accept swarms of Muslim immigrants (+ their terrorists hidden among them) from the Middle East and Africa!

  89. toadspittle says:

    “..but Brussels’ forcing of EU countries to accept swarms of Muslim immigrants (+ their terrorists hidden among them) from the Middle East and Africa!”
    Then why on earth would you have voted to stay, Kathleen? You know the Muslim “devil,” and you don’t like him. Makes no sense.

  90. johnhenrycn says:

    …it became increasingly clear that the UK was out of the EU.”

    Perhaps that’s true, Kathleen, but it’s shaping up to be a leaden footslogging exercise for years to come, and as your comrade-in-arms (12:48) will attest, the devil is in the details.

  91. johnhenrycn says:

    I’ve no status to give an opinion about this dramatic turn of events, but does not this opinion today by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, a very qualified Brit, say it all about at whose feet it should be laid:

    “Angry reproaches are flying in all directions, but let us not forget that the root cause of this unhappy divorce is the conduct of the EU elites themselves. It is they who have pushed Utopian ventures, and mismanaged the consequences disastrously. It is they who have laid siege to the historic nation states, and who fatally crossed the line of democratic legitimacy with the Lisbon Treaty. This was bound to come to a head, and now it has.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/24/the-sky-has-not-fallen-after-brexit-but-we-face-years-of-hard-la/

  92. The Raven says:

    That’s all true, JH, but the utopian dreaming was a bit of a circle-[insert word that rhymes with “work”] among politicians, journalists and officials; for all of the utopian nonsense and cod-philosophising (so beloved of the French and Italians), most of the EU was about quotidian issues like food labelling and restraint of trade.

  93. johnhenrycn says:

    Fog In Channel. Continent Cut Off🙂

  94. Tom Fisher says:

    I’m sure that there were other reasons too, but you get the picture.

    Thanks Raven, for taking the time to write such a thoughtful reply. I think that you put the case for staying in more succinctly than many spokesmen for the the ‘Remain’ campaign ever managed to. But of course, you’re part of the metropolitan elite — I’ll be in the UK for a month in Oct / Nov — I wish I was there now so I could get a sense of what people are saying in the pubs today.

    I was celebrating the eve of St John the Baptist’s birthday on the beach last night with family and friends – a big feast here. At the start of the count of votes we heard the result looked like “Remain” would win. I was shocked to see the swing to “Leave” was winning when we got home!

    Sounds like a lovely night Kathleen — I was shocked too when the results began pointing towards ‘leave’ — I’d taken it for granted that ‘Remain’ would win.

  95. Tom Fisher says:

    Sometimes I get a notification that someone has ‘replied’ to something I’ve said. Does anyone know how to do that? There are sometimes comments I’d like to reply to – and have the original poster get a notification – but I can’t figure out how to do it.

  96. Tom Fisher says:

    P.S. — re ‘Brexit’ — Ireland, Ireland, Ireland. That’s where it will get interesting

  97. toadspittle says:

    And, as Crow says, Scotland.
    …Though, I’m beginning to suspect “Brexit” will never actually happen… that we will end up with some half-baked, neither-quite-in…nor-quite-out compromise.
    You read it here first.

  98. kathleen says:

    Toad-the-Twit says:

    “Then why on earth would you have voted to stay, Kathleen? You know the Muslim “devil,” and you don’t like him. Makes no sense.”

    Why are you calling all Muslims, “devils”? And then deceitfully pretending that it was I that did so when I was referring to the dilemma of whether to stay in or out of the EU?
    Or is it that you’ve never heard the above-mentioned idiom before?
    Poor old Toad – can’t work anything out for himself!🙄

    Besides, didn’t I say The Raven summed it all up so well in his intervention? And how many points did he make in his list of motives for the “Remain” argument (even admitting there were probably more that he hadn’t included)?
    Plenty.
    Immigration is only one issue – though I admit it is an important one. In fact I think it might have been this deciding factor for many of the formerly unsure voters that toppled the outcome in favour of Brexit.

    I would have voted to stay because in the balance of pros and cons on both sides of the debate, both nationwide and for personal reasons, I think it would have been better for the UK to have remained in the EU.

  99. The Raven says:

    Tom, it’s difficult to tell how representative it is, but there seems to be a lot of buyer’s remorse on the part of leave voters (this story from the Evening Standard is fairly typical). I know that a couple of my relations who voted leave have said similar things and are quite aghast.

    I’m more irritated by my youngest cousin who went off to Glastonbury without bothering to vote and then spent yesterday in tears at the result.

  100. Tom Fisher says:

    I’m more irritated by my youngest cousin who went off to Glastonbury without bothering to vote and then spent yesterday in tears at the result.

    Apparently the Guardian was able to find several thousand young “Remain” voters at Glastonbury who didn’t get around to actually voting. I don’t know what the under 35 turn out was, but I imagine their absence made the difference

  101. mmvc says:

    As a German national I wasn’t able to vote.
    So I prayed the prayer for England and implored Ss Thomas More and John Fisher for intercession.
    Economies rise and fall, migrants will come and go but how high will be the cost to us and to future generations for the moral descent in our times?
    As Robert wrote on another thread, we must watch and pray.

  102. Brother Burrito says:

    The Day Today (1994) “It’s Alright”

  103. Roger says:

    Globalisation and using Markets to force Political Policies and economic decisions. The Global economy is controlled sorry monopolised by a very small clique. Its more power than the so called Nations and the latterly arisen Union States. Non of these is of Christ.

    Raven you are talking of the equivalent of modern slavery.

    The model for this goes back to Bablyon it surfaced in History at certain points in time. Venice is perhaps the most known. Then Holland the Dutch 1543 -1602 corporate colonialism . Which is exactly what we see today. This was ported to England 1688.

    The Industrial Revolution of the Victorians? Traced back to the Government financial recompensation paid to slave owners for their now freed slaves! That’s where the money came from.

    What enabled Globalisation? The Big Bang so called out of England with interlinked computers.
    Look at Nick Leeson and Barings Bank. Leeson was using Barings reserves from out of Singapore against the Japanese economy to force a change of economic policy on the Japanese Democractically elected government. That’s the power of private Globalism.

    The latest Financial crisis (it started with a major Global player selling globally in mid 2007) Out of this came the evidence of trash Debts and Bankrupt International Banks. What was done? The Re Captialisation of private Banks from money rerouted from social services.

    Our Lord isn’t stupid and taking the whip to the money changers in the Court of the Gentiles, it is the only recorded instance of Our Lord resorting to anger and violence!

    The European Union is the author of the Liberal Anti Christian Laws forced on members States. Look at Ireland and Italy with open eyes.

    Perhaps you are comfortable with the easy road set out by Raven? Slavery comes under many shapes and forms. It is so easy to justify and talk of Realism and the world as it is and accept Sin.

    Perhaps the sight of a the Way of the Cross doesn’t appeal to modern sensibilities! Talk the talk but when it comes to the sight of the road to Golgotha watch the crowds vanish!

    The biggest threat to global peace is the dollar debt to China under written by USA!

  104. toadspittle says:

    “Why are you calling all Muslims, “devils”? (Toad?)
    1: Well, Kathleen – I’m not. Read it again.
    2: Am I wrong then, in believing that you think Islam, all of it – is Satanically inspired, and directed?
    3: If I am wrong, I beg your pardon.
    $; I must have misinterpreted you.

    “I would not have voted for Brexit if I lived in the UK! The result is disappointing. “Better the devil you know… ”
    Are there then, potentially worse devils than the one you know?
    If, so – how do you know that?

  105. kathleen says:

    I was talking about Brexit to a German friend in the long slow-moving queue at the Post Office this morning. He was as flabbergasted as everyone, and disappointed at the result, but he also asked an interesting question…
    “How can such an enormously important decision such as this one, that will change not only the nation’s future, but also that of the whole of Europe, be allowed to pass on such a tiny margin of difference between the two opposing sides?? Surely, a two thirds majority, or at least a 60% minimum in favour of Brexit, should have been the requirement?”

    Having seen how many “Leave” supporters and those who didn’t bother to vote (like the thousands of youngsters that went to the Glastonbury festival that Tom mentions) are now devastated by the result, according to reports like The Raven’s linked article from “The Evening Standard”, I think my German friend makes a very good point!

    I have also since heard of those who voted Brexit, more as a stand against some of the EU’s more unfair rules towards the UK than any real desire to leave the EU, thinking the “Remain” vote would win anyway, are now deeply regretful of their decision.

    OTOH, we probably all know those who are delighted at the result. Like a zealous young nephew of mine who attended a lot of those keyed up “Leave” rallies building up to the vote, and whose views adeptly match The Raven’s description above of: “..a stupidly romantic view that our liberties would be enhanced by leaving the EU – a misty eyed appeal to an imagined golden age of freedoms, etc.”. My sister (his mother) truly believes he doesn’t have a clue of what’s really in store for Britain now!

  106. kathleen says:

    Roger says:

    “The European Union is the author of the Liberal Anti Christian Laws forced on members States.”

    That is undoubtedly true, Roger. But unfortunately there will be no changing those “Liberal Anti-Christian Laws” – assuming you are referring to laws such as abortion, same-sex marriage, gender theory, sex-education for little children in schools, etc., etc. – by coming out of the EU. Britain’s own politicians hold to all those terrible, anti-Christian, secular, laws just as much as the godless rulers of the EU.

  107. JabbaPapa says:

    a tiny margin of difference

    4 % points difference is not tiny — if every single vote in Scotland had been Remain, Leave would still have won.

    he doesn’t have a clue of what’s really in store for Britain

    Nor, to be fair, do most panicky Remainers boo-ing and jeering at Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

    The UK is still party to multiple treaties that Brexit will not vanish away, and it is still a member of the Council of Europe.

  108. kathleen says:

    Toad @ 13:30

    (Big Sigh)… Yes, Toad, I have said before and I shall say it again: I think Islam’s founder, Mohammad, was “Satanically inspired”. He became Satan’s agent as his life of warmongering, murder, rape, etc. demonstrates. I also base that belief not only on the evil fruits of Islam with its long history of conquest by violence; its innate cruelty and the violence that is all over its ‘holy’ book, the Koran, but on the far wiser more erudite writings of great saints and popes.

    Is Islam “Satanically directed”? Probably, yes, but it doesn’t have just one leader with a corresponding magisterium (as we do), but many different “leaders”, so it’s rather hard to answer that part of the question.

    No, Toad, I do not believe that all Muslims are “devils” – not at all – and in fact I think that the majority are probably very much like people everywhere, a mixture of virtue and vice. (As I’ve mentioned before, I have some Muslim friends who live in Oxford, and they are lovely people.)
    But if even just 1% of all Muslims worldwide were hard-line terrorists or terrorist supporters that’s a lot of “devils” to have to deal with!

    “Are there then, potentially worse devils than the one you know?”

    “Potentially” is the weasel word.😉 Your guess is as good as mine.

  109. Roger says:

    Kathleen

    The movement towards the 2/3 rds majority etc.. has already started in UK and predictable from “votes most concentrated in London, Brighton, Oxford, Cambridge and Manchester”

    “..
    More than a million people have signed a petition demanding a second EU referendum as the UK continues to reel from the vote for a Brexit. Signatories are calling for a new rule to be implemented stipulating that polls on the European Union with a majority under 60 per cent and turnout under 75 per cent must be re-started. The petition started by William Oliver Healey, reads: “We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60 per cent based a turnout less than 75 per cent there should be another referendum.”
    ..”

    It will no doubt become European Union Law and binding on member Countries.

    Brighton has the second highest suicide rate in UK. The vote concentration cited concurs with centres of drug addiction, suicide and shall I say a bohemian life styles. These centres have young and transitory populations.

  110. JabbaPapa says:

    Signatories are calling for a new rule to be implemented stipulating that polls on the European Union with a majority under 60 per cent and turnout under 75 per cent must be re-started

    People suggesting that sort of thing are basically in favour of crushing any politics that do not resemble Communism.

  111. toadspittle says:

    “Is Islam “Satanically directed”? Probably, yes, but it doesn’t have just one leader with a corresponding magisterium (as we do),”
    No Kathleen – I was asking if the Devil himself tells Muslims what to do. (in your opinion)

  112. johnhenrycn says:

    I don’t think requiring a supermajority ( 60% or even 66%) to leave the EU is anti-democratic. I note that “Remain” won the first referendum in 1975 with 67% of the votes cast. First-past-the-post may be the best method for electing MPs; but the rather more important decision to withdraw from a political entity such as the EU (or the UK for that matter) should require something more conclusive than a simple majority. While an MP can be booted out in a few years without harm to the polity, a country, even a pseudo-country like the EU, cannot function when its existence depends upon the capriciousness of one voter. As I see it, the only issue is what supermajority figure should secession require? Either 60% or 66% sounds reasonable if we’re speaking in terms of a popular referendum.

  113. Robert says:

    There is a rather recent history of perceived government deception.
    The weapons of destruction in Iraq.
    The signing of the Maastricht Treaty.
    The cover ups of certain MP’s with sexual preclavities.
    Gay marriage (private members Bill).
    Abortion (private members Bill).
    House Of Lords amendment.
    Understand that military lifes have been losted because of Iraq, Afghanistan. Soldiers crippled for Life.
    I could go on.
    Major changes in Laws without these being in Election Policy but introduced later.
    In England Parliament and the sovereignty of democracy caused a Civil War.

    Everything whitled away by governments without reference to the Nation.
    This has been building up for rather a long time.
    There are towns in England where English born residents are in the minority.
    No doubt Brussels will tighten its control over member states with criterias for refendums.

    The British have voted after weeks and weeks of rhetoric and the failure of a Prime Ministers attempt to renegotiate terms.

    The democratic process has been completed even if the majority was only 1 that is enough.

  114. johnhenrycn says:

    BB: The Day Today (1994) “Its Alright” reminds me of The Who (1965) “The Kids Are Alright”

    …but what either has to do with our ongoing Off Topic discussion, I don’t know.

  115. The Raven says:

    Roger,

    I’m going to waste my time by writing a fairly full response to your post.

    Globalisation and using Markets to force Political Policies and economic decisions. The Global economy is controlled sorry monopolised by a very small clique. Its more power than the so called Nations and the latterly arisen Union States. Non of these is of Christ.

    None of which is relevant to the EU – an agreement between member states that primarily deals with freedom to trade across artificial borders that are, themselves, emphatically not of Christ.

    As we’ve seen from the political elite’s inability to cope with Poland and Hungary (two countries which, in obedience to their populations, are resolutely swimming against the tide of social liberalism that is overwhelming Europe), the EU does not empower them to force change on a Christian people who reject their agendas.

    Raven you are talking of the equivalent of modern slavery.

    Who, exactly, is being made to labour without reward in lifetime bondage?

    I think that many people who have been affected by slavery would be grossly offended by your comparison.

    The model for this goes back to Bablyon it surfaced in History at certain points in time. Venice is perhaps the most known. Then Holland the Dutch 1543 -1602 corporate colonialism . Which is exactly what we see today. This was ported to England 1688.

    If you’re talking about mercantilism, Roger, then your dates are well and truly out, the English under Elizabeth began corporate based colonialism; the East India Company was founded in 1600.

    The Industrial Revolution of the Victorians? Traced back to the Government financial recompensation paid to slave owners for their now freed slaves! That’s where the money came from.

    The blood-money/compensation was paid to slave owners in 1833.

    By that time Arkwright, Crompton, Watt, Davy and Trevithick were dead (Telford would die the next year, 1834), James Beaumont Neilson had invented hot-blast furnaces, Brunel was starting work on the Great Western Railway. The industrial revolution was just about over by that date.

    What enabled Globalisation? The Big Bang so called out of England with interlinked computers.

    The “Big Bang” was about de-regulation, not about computing, Roger. That came far later, with automated trading and high frequency trading becoming possible in the late 1990s.

    “Globalisation”, proper has been going on since the 19th century, with the spread of the import and trade of finished goods.

    Look at Nick Leeson and Barings Bank. Leeson was using Barings reserves from out of Singapore against the Japanese economy to force a change of economic policy on the Japanese Democractically elected government. That’s the power of private Globalism.

    Lesson was supposed to be arbitraging exchange differences between Osaka and Singapore, but instead took long positions in the Osaka exchange (all of which failed). His trading positions were relatively small in the context of a sovereign state (the overall loss was “only” $1.3bn, which is what the British government got through in a day at that time), not enough to force a change of policy on anyone.

    The latest Financial crisis (it started with a major Global player selling globally in mid 2007) Out of this came the evidence of trash Debts and Bankrupt International Banks. What was done? The Re Captialisation of private Banks from money rerouted from social services.

    The crash is usually dated to when BNP Paribas raised concerns about hedge funds, the underlying cause was the US housing market and the sale of CDOs, backed up by shoddy credit ratings, and their purchase of them by banks and governments around the world.

    Most of the re-capitalisation was done through QE in the US and UK. The subsequent fiscal tightening in the UK was a policy decision made by the ConDem government to reduce the deficit and was partly borne out of an ideological desire to shrink the state. This impacted disproportionately on the poor because, at least in part, Labour led local authorities took decisions to ensure that cuts to their budgets were “felt”.

    The European Union is the author of the Liberal Anti Christian Laws forced on members States. Look at Ireland and Italy with open eyes.

    You’re conflating the European Court of Human Rights with the EU. They are two entirely separate institutions.

    FFS.

    Perhaps you are comfortable with the easy road set out by Raven?

    Now you’re just pissing me off.

    The biggest threat to global peace is the dollar debt to China under written by USA!

    Actually, it isn’t.

    Do you know the old saw about debt? “If I owe you $1,000, then I have a problem. If I owe you $1,000,000 then YOU have the problem!”

    A far bigger threat to global peace is the overlap of military forces in Syria – there is plenty of scope for a full fledged military clash between Russia and the US that could brew up into nuclear war.

    Even the threat in the South China Sea is minor by comparison – China is just not ready yet and could be disarmed by a first strike. Wait until they have submarine launched missiles.

    To put it bluntly, Roger, your history is wrong and your grasp of politics is negligible.

    Your hat is made of tin-foil and I claim my £5.

  116. The Raven says:

    I agree JH, which is why I have signed the petition!

  117. Robert says:

    Raven
    Would I sign a blank cheque? Its seems you have.

    You response is interesting, thank you.

    The Netherlands are crucial to understanding the issues in Europe (Belloc confirms this).
    “..
    The development of banking spread from northern Italy throughout the Holy Roman Empire, and in the 15th and 16th century to northern Europe. This was followed by a number of important innovations that took place in Amsterdam during the Dutch Republic in the 17th century, and in London in the 18th century. During the 20th century, developments in telecommunications and computing caused major changes to banks’ operations and let banks dramatically increase in size and geographic spread. The financial crisis of 2007–2008 caused many bank failures, including some of the world’s largest banks, and provoked much debate about bank regulation.
    ..”
    The Big Bang alone didn’t facilitate the changes to banking operation. It was interlinking of computers. (telecommunications)
    “..
    Glorious Revolution of 1688 (financed with a bank loan that a consortium of Amsterdam bankers threw together in three days)
    ..”
    The Private Bank of England was set up within a Constitutional Monarchy. The Private Federal Reserve set up by European bankers and their agents.

    The Troika is the least understood element within European Union. Its also the least reported.
    “..
    The European troika is the designation of the triumvirate representing the European Union in its foreign relations, in particular concerning its common foreign and security policy (CFSP).
    Currently, while talking about the troika (especially in the media) one refers to a decision group formed by the European Commission (EC), the European Central Bank (ECB) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
    ..”
    “..
    The term troika has been widely used in Greece and Cyprus (Greek: τρόικα),[1][2] Ireland,[3] Portugal[4] and Spain[5] to refer to the presence of the European Commission, European Central Bank, and International Monetary Fund in these countries since 2010 and the financial measures that these institutions have taken.
    ..”

    In 2011, New Scientist revealed that 147 interconnected entities – not all of them large financial institutions – control the network of global capitalism.

    An analysis of the relationships between 43,000 transnational corporations has identified a relatively small group of companies, mainly banks, with disproportionate power over the global economy. (October 2011)

    The top 50 of the 147 superconnected companies

    1. Barclays plc
    2. Capital Group Companies Inc
    3. FMR Corporation
    4. AXA
    5. State Street Corporation
    6. JP Morgan Chase & Co
    7. Legal & General Group plc
    8. Vanguard Group Inc
    9. UBS AG
    10. Merrill Lynch & Co Inc
    11. Wellington Management Co LLP
    12. Deutsche Bank AG
    13. Franklin Resources Inc
    14. Credit Suisse Group
    15. Walton Enterprises LLC
    16. Bank of New York Mellon Corp
    17. Natixis
    18. Goldman Sachs Group Inc
    19. T Rowe Price Group Inc
    20. Legg Mason Inc
    21. Morgan Stanley
    22. Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group Inc
    23. Northern Trust Corporation
    24. Société Générale
    25. Bank of America Corporation
    26. Lloyds TSB Group plc
    27. Invesco plc
    28. Allianz SE 29. TIAA
    30. Old Mutual Public Limited Company
    31. Aviva plc
    32. Schroders plc
    33. Dodge & Cox
    34. Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc*
    35. Sun Life Financial Inc
    36. Standard Life plc
    37. CNCE
    38. Nomura Holdings Inc
    39. The Depository Trust Company
    40. Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance
    41. ING Groep NV
    42. Brandes Investment Partners LP
    43. Unicredito Italiano SPA
    44. Deposit Insurance Corporation of Japan
    45. Vereniging Aegon
    46. BNP Paribas
    47. Affiliated Managers Group Inc
    48. Resona Holdings Inc
    49. Capital Group International Inc
    50. China Petrochemical Group Company

  118. johnhenrycn says:

    Robert, I can’t stand the suspense. Please reveal the names of the other 97.

  119. Robert says:

    Raven

    The BBC investigated the slave-owners shape Britain?

    In 1833, Britain emancipated its enslaved people and raised the equivalent of £17bn in compensation money. But that money wasn’t paid to the enslaved people – it was given to Britain’s slave-owners for ‘loss of human property.’

    The Slave Compensation Commission was set up to process the claims for compensation – 46,000 in all. Its records uncover how deeply slave-ownership had infiltrated 19th Century society

    How did the slave trade affect Our Lives?
    1/Some of the wealthiest slave-owning families invested in the development of railway networks
    2/The slave trade relied on systems of credit and insurance, leading to the development of London’s financial industries.
    3/Brits developed a taste for a new variety of foods from across the Empire, including tea, coffee and chocolate.
    4/A number of slave-owners were trustees, patrons or donors to some of Britain’s most cherished cultural institutions.

  120. Robert says:

    johnhenryen I am sure that Raven will fill in the gaps.

    But the point I am trying to get across is that there exists a essentially private global empire and they have close relationship with the Trading Blocs and yes the Vatican Bank.

    The very important Vatican Diplomatic corps one of not the oldest in the world.

    The point was made by John Paul II when he talked about Globalists.

    The surprise devaluation of the Chinese yuan sparked global panic in August 2015.
    China’s Currency Path and the Dollar-Debt Time Bomb (are well reported on!)
    18 trillion dollar debt!
    In this dollar debt lies a threat to world war. Think the great depression 1930’s brought the rise of Hitler! Denying Japan Oil led to Pearl Harbour

  121. The Raven says:

    Would I sign a blank cheque? Its seems you have.

    I voted remain – I voted for the known, it’s you leavers who have signed a blank cheque for a ride into uncharted chaos.

    The Netherlands are crucial to understanding the issues in Europe (Belloc confirms this).
    “..
    The development of banking spread…

    You seem to forget that banking in Christendom was initiated by the Crusades: people needed to move vast amounts of cash to support armies abroad and later pilgrims wanting to draw funds in Rome and Jerusalem. The main Dutch development was double-entry bookkeeping , allowing people to keep better track of their financial exposures.

    The Big Bang alone didn’t facilitate the changes to banking operation. It was interlinking of computers. (telecommunications)

    This is just ignorant nonsense: the big bank deregulation laid the ground for computerisation and also allowed institutions that had been restrained by regulation to begin to trade in ways that mingled retail banking with merchant banking.

    Glorious Revolution of 1688 (financed with a bank loan that a consortium of Amsterdam bankers threw together in three days)

    Which meant that it was neither the first nor the last foreign expedition financed using private money. In this respect the “glorious revolution” was entirely unremarkable.

    The Private Bank of England was set up within a Constitutional Monarchy. The Private Federal Reserve set up by European bankers and their agents.

    I have no clue what this is intended to signify, but if I understand it right, you are suggesting that the Bank of England was set up by a cabal of foreign bankers. This is, of course, nonsense.

    The Troika is the least understood element within European Union. Its also the least reported.

    The troika is not part of the EU, its components are the European Commission, the ECB and the IMF – the IMF is entirely independent of the EU. And if you think that it is under-reported, you have been living under a stone for the last 2 years.

    In 2011, New Scientist revealed that 147 interconnected entities – not all of them large financial institutions – control the network of global capitalism.

    So what? The report that you’re citing concludes:

    So, the super-entity may not result from conspiracy. The real question, says the Zurich team, is whether it can exert concerted political power. Driffill feels 147 is too many to sustain collusion. Braha suspects they will compete in the market but act together on common interests. Resisting changes to the network structure may be one such common interest.

    You’ll be making an argument against the researchers’ findings in a minute.

    1/Some of the wealthiest slave-owning families invested in the development of railway networks

    And some of them spent the cash on building pretty houses for themselves instead. The railways were a good investment, they attracted cash from all sources.

    2/The slave trade relied on systems of credit and insurance, leading to the development of London’s financial industries.

    The insurance trade was developed long before the UK got involved in the slave trade and “wet” admiralty insurance was more focussed on the indies trade than the Atlantic trade.

    3/Brits developed a taste for a new variety of foods from across the Empire, including tea, coffee and chocolate.

    None of which were based on the slave trade.

    4/A number of slave-owners were trustees, patrons or donors to some of Britain’s most cherished cultural institutions.

    Once, again, Roger, so what?

    Don’t bombard me with irrelevant cut and pastes, make an argument.

  122. johnhenrycn says:

    Okay, Robert, if you’re to shy to fully expose yourself. It’s just that my son-in-law is a regional manager of No. 35, and in view of your list, I think I can now safely stop giving him $100 on his birthday without him taking it too hard.

  123. The Raven says:

    The surprise devaluation of the Chinese yuan sparked global panic in August 2015.

    What stone were you living under, Roger? The following is from the FT (click to link to the article):

    The US Treasury offered a cautious welcome to Beijing’s move. In a statement it noted that “China has indicated that the changes announced today are another step in its move to a more market-determined exchange rate”, something the US has long sought. It also said, however, that it would “continue to monitor how these changes are implemented” and warned that “any reversal in reforms would be a troubling development”.

    And just so that we’re visually clear, this is Rogbert’s next comment:

    In this dollar debt lies a threat to world war. Think the great depression 1930’s brought the rise of Hitler! Denying Japan Oil led to Pearl Harbour

    No it doesn’t, for the reasons already stated!

  124. JabbaPapa says:

    You seem to forget that banking in Christendom was initiated by the Crusades

    Coincidence, not cause-and-effect.

    The cause of the creation of the Banking system was the need for the burgeoning international trade to have a reliable and trustworthy means of cash transfers, and the combination of the Knights Templar’s military power with their strict Vow of Poverty plus the fact that they were already performing similar services made them ideal for the job.

  125. The Raven says:

    Fair enough, Jabba, but Roger’s claim is that the banking system is a mercantilist edifice, when it quite plainly was not.

  126. toadspittle says:

    What’s all this got to do with altar rails?

    However…“3/Brits developed a taste for a new variety of foods from across the Empire, including tea, coffee and chocolate.” Raven says, “None of which were based on the slave trade.”
    …Just slave labour, possibly? Like Nike today.
    And, while we’re safely Off Topic, and on slavery, isn’t it true that – while slavery was the norm in Christ’s day – he never uttered one word against it?
    None of his business, maybe?

  127. kathleen says:

    Yes He did, Toad. Christ said: “Love you neighbour as yourself” and called it the second greatest commandment! You are hardly loving your neighbour if you treat someone (anyone) like a slave, right?

  128. Robert says:

    Raven
    The Templar Order was suppressed and as you know they ran a double entry banking system. The disappearance of their wealth remains a mystery!
    However enough is enough.
    This so called United Europe is suffering and far from being against the grain the UK vote has considerable empathy with what is an Autocratic Union (do not defend that TROIKA!!)
    Well here is the decisive moment!
    You want a Christen Europe then its the Third Exodus kissing goodbye to the materialist, modernist and Anti Christ elite of Europe.
    Slavery is to SELF and what I have heard again and again is SELF-INTERESTS sugar coated to retain the status quo.
    Me I look forward and like Belloc Rosary in hand!

  129. JabbaPapa says:

    The disappearance of their wealth remains a mystery

    The French stole most of it, I believe, and tough luck BTW for anyone who had an account there …

  130. Brother Burrito says:

    JH (25th June @ 20:08)

    You josh me surely. This little sketch is wryly replayed whenever Britain’s government/mainstream media get their underwear in a bunch over things not going exactly to their plan: eg Brexit.

    Perhaps you have to live in the UK to get all the surreal satires within it lampooning the cliched memes that we get bombarded with over here: the pot smoking policeman dancing with the Caribbean woman, the authoritarian soothing voice telling us over and over that everything is all right-that the establishment is still in control etc.

    It is one short sketch from an opus of work over 20+ years by two (occasionally surrealist) Catholic satirists Chris Morris and Armando Iannucci. Their extremely edgy humour is considered some of the best that Britain has ever produced and always attacks self-important media nonsense and political chicanery. Examples include

    “In the loop” -UK/US political satire
    “The thick of it” -UK political satire
    “Brass Eye” -media satire
    “Four Lions” -terrorism satire
    etc.

    If you want a greater understanding, look up these guys on imdb.com

  131. Tom Fisher says:

    Yes He did, Toad. Christ said: “Love you neighbour as yourself” and called it the second greatest commandment! You are hardly loving your neighbour if you treat someone (anyone) like a slave, right?

    We know that Paul took the institution of slavery for granted. Philemon is a humane and touching text, but it does not involve a root and branch rejection of slavery per se. If Christ was an abolitionist, no one told Paul. Which seems odd

  132. Tom Fisher says:

    isn’t it true that – while slavery was the norm in Christ’s day – he never uttered one word against it?
    None of his business, maybe?

    The idea that Christianity was incompatible with the institution of slavery developed slowly. It is utterly absent from the New Testament, and utterly absent from the writers commonly referred to as belonging to the “Apostolic Age”. It’s an awkward fact, but one we have to live with

  133. Brother Burrito says:

    Of course slavery is intrinsically evil but its abolition was not Christ’s first priority because its worldwide removal would take many human lifetimes. Much more immediately important was the injunction to love your neighbour as yourself, that you may have Eternal Life. Thus masters and slaves were commanded to put aside their abusing relationship before Christ. Early Christian households were the first institutions to abolish slavery within themselves. It would take many centuries for the rest of the world to catch up, after many setbacks.

    Christ’s agenda for mankind and the making anew of all creation may seem painfully slow to us panicky temporal wee critters, but to God, aeons pass quicker than Planck times do for us.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time

  134. Tom Fisher says:

    I think that what BB said is exactly right.

    But Toad raised a serious question. It simply won’t do, as Kathleen did, to read the rejection of slavery into the text “love your neighbour as yourself”. There is no evidence that the first generation of Christians read that as an abolitionist text.

  135. Roger says:

    Tom
    Our Lord came to free man from the slavery of SIN.

  136. kathleen says:

    I never said Our Lord was “an abolitionist”, Tom, only that Our Lord said all people must be treated as one would want to be treated oneself, and that obviously included ‘slaves’. But BB explains it right indeed; it was the early Christian community who understood this to mean ‘all men’ and were the first to start to abolish slavery.

    A lot depends on how we understand slavery. Certainly it was a living hell for those who were worked to death, whipped and abused, or used as beasts of burden rather or as playthings by cruel tyrants. However from what I have learnt, slavery had another face in the Roman Empire too. Slaves, in particular household slaves, were often considered little less than members of the family. Cicero’s treasured slave, Tiro (who was often referred to as his ‘secretary’) is a good example.

    So while there were slaves in Palestine at the time of Christ who suffered terribly, there were many others who were, in general, treated surprisingly well. Their freedom of movement was taken away from them of course, but they were fed, clothed and cared for when they fell ill. Many uprooted people wandering the streets would have preferred to have been living in a household as a slave than scratching a living on the crime-ridden streets of the Roman Empire.

    P.S. As Roger has noted, Our Lord’s mission was to free men from true slavery, that of sin and death. He knew that the Roman Empire that had conquered His people was a transitory thing, like everything else. But His Words would endure forever.

  137. JabbaPapa says:

    The idea that Christianity was incompatible with the institution of slavery developed slowly

    Galatians {5:1} Stand firm, and do not be willing to be again held by the yoke of servitude.

    Exodus {21:16} Whoever will have stolen a man and sold him, having been convicted of the crime, shall be put to death.

    Deuteronomy {23:15} You shall not deliver a servant who has fled to you to his master.
    {23:16} He shall live with you in a place that pleases him, and he shall rest in one of your cities. You shall not grieve him.

    —–

    aaaaand as usual because it seems people have short memories, mistranslations of Scripture into the English “slave” of Hebrew, Greek, or Latin ones meaning “worker, servant, labourer, serf” continue NOT to constitute justifications of slavery in the sense that it was established by Muslims and then by the English and Americans.

    The only people in the Roman Empire who were slaves as in the popular imagination were convicted criminals and some prisoners of war, and frankly they had situations that are extremely similar to those of countless thousands of convicts in the US prison system in these present times.

  138. johnhenrycn says:

    BB (14:33) – So I watched a couple of those Brass Eye episodes, and yes, they were amusing, and yes, I can see why they would’ve been a riot for someone who was still a youngster when they were being made at the end of the last century🙂

  139. ginnyfree says:

    Food for thought: “…and Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, rather He emptied Himself and took the form of a SLAVE, being born in the likeness of men…..” I’m just sayin’ if God could become a slave for man’s sake, doesn’t that dignify the yoke of slavery a bit? Before you go coo coo over cocoa puffs at me, think about it. Slavery wasn’t condemned by God, but by men. Its wholesale detestation is part and parcel of a heresy called Americanism. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  140. Tom Fisher says:

    The first first two centuries of Christianity saw a focus on the humane treatment of slaves, rather than an abolition of the institution itself. Jabba’s hodge-podge of biblical quotations is fine I suppose. It’s never a waste of time to read scripture.

    aaaaand as usual because it seems people have short memories, mistranslations of Scripture into the English “slave” of Hebrew, Greek, or Latin ones meaning “worker, servant, labourer, serf” continue NOT to constitute justifications of slavery in the sense that it was established by Muslims and then by the English and Americans.

    Who, specifically, has made any such claim? I certainly haven’t.

  141. Brother Burrito says:

    Did you watch “Paedogeddon”? That was so edgy it got banned from British TV altogether.

    Of course, it wasn’t making light of paedophilia, it was targeting the hysterical way the subject was being handled by media/government, and the subsequent public over-reactions.

    That was from 2001. Thank you for considering me still a nipper then.

    “In the loop” is my favourite of late. Its script raises cursing and swearing to an art form. Scots actors Peter Capaldi and Paul Higgins deserve special mention. WARNING, the language is FOUL, but it is only being said for dramatic effect. The US cast also did very well.

  142. johnhenrycn says:

    Yes, I did watch part of Paedogeddon, but its totally uncalled for slurs against paediatricians was completely off-putting. I switched to a different episode.

  143. Brother Burrito says:

    Believe it or not, several paediatricians in the UK were targeted and attacked by ignorant lynch mobs! No kidding!

    Thus art here was imitating life, and was showing just how stupid the public conscious milieu had become.

    Such things never happen in Canada I’m sure.

  144. johnhenrycn says:

    Yes, I was alluding to that paediatrician somewhere in Cornwall – about 10 years back – whose surgery was picketed by incensed townsfolk. I think it was in Port Wenn. No, that’s where Doc Martin lives. Maybe Port Why.

  145. toadspittle says:

    Crikey, the Paedogedden thing was funny!
    Summed up a certain sort of TV journalism to a “T” – or actually a “J.”
    (Otherwise it would be Tournalism.)

  146. JabbaPapa says:

    Who, specifically, has made any such claim? I certainly haven’t.

    erm, you just did : “The first first two centuries of Christianity saw a focus on the humane treatment of slaves“. And — “humane” ? Really ? That word is only really applicable to beasts, not people.

    That’s — “a focus on treating workers, servants, labourers, serfs in a decent, Christian manner”.

    In current terminology, it’s a focus on treating employees properly, and NOT like “slaves”.

  147. johnhenrycn says:

    Since this is an Off Topic Forum, I’d like to offer for everyone’s delectation this clip featuring Professor Potty-Mouth Springer from Victoria University (Canada) addressing (i.e. lecturing from prepared notes, so it’s not like he’s a Pope Francis wannabee) a rapt audience at the University of Queensland (where dat?) on the subject of NeoLiberalism. His script becomes slightly less turgid at exactly the 9:20 mark:

  148. Brother Burrito says:

    JH,

    I didn’t listen to every second of the master’s voice, but I was left with the impression that he was speaking for localism and subsidiarity. He owned up near the end to being an anarchist, and so do I, though I am a Christian anarchist.

    My motto is “DOWN WITH EVERYTHING which is not ad majorem Dei gloriam, or which damages my loving of my neighbour as my very self in Christ!

    Sure, as mottoes go it’s a bit clunky. Sorry.

  149. The Raven says:

    What is this gibbering pile of irrelevancies supposed to mean Roger?

  150. ginnyfree says:

    And now the Apologetic you’ve all been waiting for: how to defend transeverythingism – ENJOY! Happy Sunday. Life is too short to be taken seriously. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMUl6w1efXI

    God bless. Ginnyfree.

  151. johnhenrycn says:

    Very hilarious, Ginnyfree🙂

  152. ginnyfree says:

    Good jokes deserve to be shared. Pass it along to an Apologist you love real soon! God bless. Ginnyfree.

  153. Brother Burrito says:

    Very clever and amusing. Thanks GF!

  154. Brother Burrito says:

    Would you dare to question who you really are?

  155. johnhenrycn says:

    Is that a gun you have in your pocket, Mr Gove ?(h/t Mae West)

  156. toadspittle says:

    We seem to be unable to comment on the latest “thread” (BTW: What is the mot juste? Any suggestions?) regarding F*t*m*.
    I’d just like the chance to say what an absurd statue illustrates it.
    But I can’t – so I won’t.
    However, there are serious issues here. (or there.)

  157. toadspittle says:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jul/10/philistines-more-sophisticated-than-given-credit-for-say-archaeologists
    Interesting.
    It always seemed to Toad that the only reason God bothered to create the Philistines was in order that they might be be frequently massacred by the Israelites.
    …Still, reading this, it seems there’s no particular reason to think otherwise.

  158. kathleen says:

    Toad,

    I don’t think any of us had noticed that the comment section on yesterday’s Fatima post had been disabled. How strange! I’ve opened it now, so if you still want to tell everyone how much you dislike the statue* of Our Lady of Fatima, please just go ahead.😉

    * A statue could never resemble the true beauty and holiness of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

  159. toadspittle says:

    Thanks, Kathleen.
    But never mind – it’s not important.
    Probably, most people like the idea of a statue of the Mother of God – that seems to be made of sugar, with an absurd object stuck on top of her head.

    “A statue could never resemble the true beauty and holiness of the Blessed Virgin Mary.”
    True.

    But then, a photo could never resemble the true beauty and innocence of Miss Shirley Temple…. Could it?

  160. toadspittle says:

    We Toads have a real-life Franciscan friar, staying with us. Brown robe, sandals, knotted cord belt, the whole boiling!
    Our stock with the neighbours has never been higher.

  161. Brother Burrito says:

    Just found this water powered economics modelling computer from 1949 invented by genius New Zealand economist Bill Phillips:

    BTW, where is Toad?

  162. Tom Fisher says:

    Just noticed this howler from Jabba:

    And — “humane” ? Really ? That word is only really applicable to beasts, not people.

    That is utterly wrong.

    The Geneva convention on POWs supplies just one of an unlimited number of examples:

    Persons taking no active part in the hostilities,… shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria

  163. johnhenrycn says:

    I guess you’re right,Tom – technically speaking – but I think humanely is more literately used in relation to our treatment of animals. Indeed, that ‘Geneva’ admonition calling upon us to treat persons (humans) humanely is a redundant pleonastic tautology (burp!).

  164. Tom Fisher says:

    Johnhenry, I tend to agree. However the association with animals is a relatively recent development. — For example, he ‘Humane society’, in its initial form, had nothing to do with animals. Perhaps it would have been better to accept Jabba’s mild confusion, and not pursue it. But we have to use a higher standard when it comes to Jabba. After all, every criticism of anything Pope Francis has ever said can always be demonstrated, by Jabba, to hinge upon a ‘mistranslation’. Given his superlative linguistic skills, I think it is only right.

  165. johnhenrycn says:

    I’ve noticed that Jabba seems to have a working knowledge of just about every language except Klingon, or maybe he’s just adept at hiding his reliance on “Bing”🙂

  166. Brother Burrito says:

    Is Toad on holiday, or lying in a ditch somewhere?

    As his tabloid past might have put it: “We must be told!!!”

  167. Brother Burrito says:

    More insights into my musical tastes: Caravan performing “Winter Wine” live.

    Richard Sinclair and his cousin David Sinclair perform ethereally on vocals/bass and Hammond B3 organ respectively. The studio version is even better. It is easy to find online.

  168. rebrites says:

    Toad is recovering from big eye surgery ( detached retina) ,mainly by lying in a ditch.
    But he is recovering.

  169. Tom Fisher says:

    Rebrites, best wishes to Toad, hope he returns to active duty soon.

  170. kathleen says:

    Thanks for this update, Rebrites. Give him our love please, and let him know that prayers for a speedy recovery are coming his way (whether he appreciates them, or not!😉 )

  171. ginnyfree says:

    Wow! Rebrites, that you very much for letting me know about Toad. Please let him know that he is in my prayers. And tell him not to make too many friends in that ditch. Some critters you find in ditches may not be the kind of critters you bring home. God bless. Ginnyfree.

  172. Roger says:

    My Prayers for Toad Peace and Goodness for Him and His Own
    May All Be For The Greater Glory Of God And The Triumph Of The Immaculate

  173. JabbaPapa says:

    Thank you Rebekah for the news, and please carry on helping to care for His Toadness via copious mugs of good tea and the odd can of chilled Estrella !!

    I hope that there’s good shade for his eyes in that ditch, and that the hounds are keeping him good, peaceable company there, whenever you may need to absent yourself from his side.

    BTW, thanks to God & maybe with a little help from my Angel or the Saints, my knees seem to have rather suddenly returned to better working order — Part 2 of the Camino I’m still attempting seems to be potentially live again as a project — so no idea when, but with the Grace of God, I may just be seeing you both again, which would be a joy that I look forward to.

  174. kathleen says:

    Two of my sons have just completed the second part of the Camino and are on their way home today! Don’t think they stopped off at Moratinos to meet the famous Amphibian, sorry to say!🙂

    Apart from aching shoulders from their overly heavy rucksacks (which comes from not heeding their Mum’s advice to keep baggage to an absolute minimum) and a few blisters, they seem none the worse from their experience! Oh well, they have youth on their side! The final Mass for pilgrims in the Cathedral of Santiago they found a very moving and joyful occasion.

  175. johnhenrycn says:

    Best wishes, Toad, for your speedy and complete recovery.

  176. GC says:

    Yes absolutely. Get well, Toad, as soon as possible, though I hear it takes a little bit longer with this condition.

    Here’s a little prayer of thanksgiving for your successful op, from these wonderful Nigerian sisters (whose order was set up there during the Biafran war). Might even cheer Toad up a bit, as it did me.

  177. mmvc says:

    Praying for you to Saint Lucy, the patron saint for eyes and vision, Toad.
    Get well soon!

  178. The Raven says:

    Dear Rebrites, thank you for letting us know about Toad. I hope that he makes a swift recovery.

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