German Bishops Allow Holy Communion for Protestant Spouses in ‘Some Cases’

Cardinal Reinhard Marx says a new ‘guide’ allowing some Protestant spouses to receive Holy Communion under certain circumstances is a ‘positive step’ while theologians have strongly warned against such a move.
 

German bishops have voted “overwhelmingly” in favour of producing a “guide” for Protestant spouses on reception of Holy Communion under certain conditions.

At their spring conference in Ingolstadt, the German bishops’ conference agreed that a Protestant partner of a Catholic can receive the Eucharist after having made a “serious examination” of conscience with a priest or another person with pastoral responsibilities, “affirms the faith of the Catholic Church,” wishes to end “serious spiritual distress,” and has a “longing to satisfy a hunger for the Eucharist.”

Cardinal Reinhard Marx, president of the German bishops’ conference, said Thursday that such a guide was a “positive step.” He said there had been an “intense debate” during which “serious concerns” had been raised, according to Katholisch.de, the website of the German bishops’ conference.

He added the bishops were not giving general approval but that the guide pertained to individual decisions. He said the bishops wanted to continue with this issue “in a high profile way,” but that the guide would merely be a “pastoral handout” and that “we don’t want to change any doctrine.”

The bishops believe the guidelines should help pastors to clarify whether such cases are of an exceptional kind, in line with the meaning of canon 844 § 4 which regulates when a non-Catholic may receive Holy Communion.

The canon states:

“If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.”

Cardinal Marx rejected the idea that such a step would amount to a path that would call Protestants to conversion, otherwise known as an “ecumenism of return or conversion.” In other words, he stressed that the document does not mention that Protestants may receive Holy Communion only if they convert. He also said much would be left to the discretion of the local bishop, and consequences he might draw from the guide. He said only the bishop himself may establish new laws in this area.

The guide was prepared by the bishops’ commission on questions of faith and ecumenism, and will be published in the coming weeks. Cardinal Marx said Vatican approval is not necessary because it was only a matter of pastoral assistance.

“For people who not only share their faith in Jesus Christ, but also their lives with each other, this is a real relief,” the EKD’s Council Chairman Heinrich Bedford-Strohm said Thursday. “The decision makes it clear that the need of inter-confessing couples to be able to stand together at the Lord’s table is heard and appreciated by the bishops’ conference,” he said.

A source with knowledge of the matter in Germany told the Register the bishops were bringing up the “famous single-case again” which as far as he was concerned has been a “quiet and discreet practice in Germany for quite a while.” He also criticized the EKD for already taking it further than the bishops seem to intend, and viewing it as green lighting intercommunion for all couples.

In comments to the Register last year, an Italian theologian warned that if the Church were to change its rules on shared Eucharistic Communion it would ”go against Revelation and the Magisterium”, leading Christians to “commit blasphemy and sacrilege.”

Drawing on the Church’s teaching based on Sacred Scripture and Tradition, Msgr. Nicola Bux, a former consulter to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, stressed that non-Catholic Christians must have undertaken baptism and confirmation in the Catholic Church, and repented of grave sin through sacramental confession, in order to be able to receive Jesus in the Eucharist.

The German bishops’ move echoes comments made by Pope Francis in November 2015 when he appeared to suggest that a Lutheran married to a Catholic could receive Holy Communion based on the fact that the Lutheran wife was baptized and would be acting in accordance with her conscience.

He told Evangelical Lutherans in Rome that the woman should “talk to the Lord” about receiving holy Communion “and then go forward,” but added that he “wouldn’t ever dare to allow this, because it’s not my competence.”

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

66 Responses to German Bishops Allow Holy Communion for Protestant Spouses in ‘Some Cases’

  1. JabbaPapa says:

    A similar possibility has long existed for non-Catholic Christian foot pilgrims on the Way of Saint James — the conditions sine qua non are that the Christian not be in a manifest state of mortal sin, professes belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and have no access (for example on a day of obligation) to a service from a minister of the church or ecclesial community that the person belongs to.

    Bishops have for centuries been able to establish local norms in these matters in their own territories.

    Full intercommunion however is most certainly NOT possible — a Catholic could under no circumstances partake of a “eucharistic” service with any Christian community that denies the Real Presence or whose Orders are invalid.

    Msgr. Nicola Bux … stressed that non-Catholic Christians must have undertaken baptism and confirmation in the Catholic Church … in order to be able to receive Jesus in the Eucharist

    This is most certainly untrue of the Eastern Orthodox, whose Sacramental theology and Apostolic Succession are both perfectly valid, and it is also not fully accurate in the particular cases of some Indults / Indulgences or some exceptional emergency situations.

    Furthermore, we see even in the first Communions of the little ones that Confirmation is not always necessary for Eucharistic Communion.

    And most non-Catholic Baptisms are both valid and licit Sacramentally, so that Msgr. Bux’ comments about some necessity in Christians of “baptism” is rather dubious.

    His comments about confession may be more pertinent, particularly in the case of non-Catholic spouses seeking permission to partake of Holy Communion with some frequency and regularity.

  2. mmvc says:

    Full intercommunion however is most certainly NOT possible

    Whilst that is not openly under discussion, I wouldn’t be surprised if these individual ‘cases’ admitted to the table of the Lord after some discernment with their ‘guides’ (sound familiar, no?) were not the start of a slippery slope leading precisely to full intercommunion. I’ve heard a German ‘Catholic’ priest not only sing Luther’s praises during his sermons but also repeatedly exhort his congregation to bring along their evangelical/protestant friends and neighbours to receive in Catholic churches and to do likewise in theirs! And so in practice that which is “NOT possible” very quickly becomes possible.

  3. kathleen says:

    But don’t you see Jabba that these so-called “possibilities” for “some non-Catholic Christians” to receive Holy Communion without waiting (or even intending) to become full members of the Church is the start of another serious abuse of the Most Holy Sacrament? Is Our Lord’s Sacred Body and Blood not already enough offended? – (words of The Angel of Portugal to the children at Fatima).

    There have been numerous patient, humble converts who have yearned, wept and waited, sometimes for years, to receive Holy Communion. However, until they were finally made full members of the Catholic Church they would never have dared even dream of receiving Holy Communion until they had entered into full communion with Christ’s Holy Bride.

    Don’t fall into this trap of the Devil and his minions! It is nothing more than another of his manipulative attacks on the Holy Eucharist: in the same way as the permitted practice of receiving Holy Communion in the hand while standing, although in itself seemingly inoffensive, has led to widespread sacrileges, impiety and a weakening of belief in the Real Presence.

  4. JabbaPapa says:

    tum te tum long response deleted by fat fingers …

  5. mmvc says:

    Very well said, Kathleen!

    Here are some prophecies of Blessed Anna Katharina Emmerich that seem to tie in with the current wounds inflicted on the Holy Bride of Christ:

    “The Church is completely isolated and as if completely deserted. It seems that everyone is running away.”

    “Among the strangest things that I saw, were long processions of bishops. Their thoughts and utterances were made known to me through images issuing from their mouths. Their faults towards religion were shown by external deformities. A few had only a body, with a dark cloud of fog instead of a head. Others had only a head, their bodies and hearts were like thick vapors. Some were lame; others were paralytics; others were asleep or staggering.”

    “I saw what I believe to be nearly all the bishops of the world, but only a small number were perfectly sound…”

    “Then I saw that everything that pertained to Protestantism was gradually gaining the upper hand, and the Catholic religion fell into complete decadence…”

    “In those days, Faith will fall very low, and it will be preserved in some places only, in a few cottages and in a few families which God has protected from disasters and wars.”

    “I saw that many pastors allowed themselves to be taken up with ideas that were dangerous to the Church. They were building a great, strange, and extravagant Church. Everyone was to be admitted in it in order to be united and have equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics, sects of every description. Such was to be the new Church…”

  6. Toad says:

    (Bux stressed that) ..non-Catholic Christians must have undertaken baptism and confirmation in the Catholic Church,
    If non-Catholic Christians had undertake that, they are not non-Catholics any more, are they?
    ….So the statement is nonsensical.

  7. geoffkiernan says:

    “But dont you see….that these so called ‘possibilities’ for some….to receive H/C….is part of another serious abuse…..” Kathleen’ at 1225…
    Of course he sees it Kathleen. He just has problems reconciling it with his Jesuitical thought processes.
    Notwithstanding the validity or otherwise of the contention put forward by our resident Jesuit ( and I dont mean the Pope) I suggest of the two points of view, one is incompatible with the other. One suggest a response to a very specific set of circumstances. The other a deliberate attempt to usurp and diminish the Teaching Authority and doctrine of the Church. I am not so sure he can see that either.
    I have said before and I say again, sometimes to much learnin’ ‘ll weaken ya brain.
    “tum te tum” what is that???
    PS and more nonsensical BS from a frog….please give us all a break mate, cobber ……

  8. JabbaPapa says:

    He just has problems reconciling it with his Jesuitical thought processes

    our resident Jesuit

    weaken ya brain. … “tum te tum” what is that

    These comments are completely devoid of any usefulness nor value.

  9. geoffkiernan says:

    Only in your humble opinion

  10. JabbaPapa says:

    So what, shall I start referring to “our resident relativist neo-pelagian slave of superficiality” every time your name comes up, “dear” geoff ?

  11. Toad says:

    Have you noticed, that when ‘people say, ”In my humble opinion,” they then invariably come out with something arrogant?

    ”’Frog….please give us all a break mate, cobber …”
    There’s more chance of emus coming and kicking your down down – that that happening, Geoff. It’s my vocation.

  12. kathleen says:

    I don’t follow your train of thought, Jabba…. What on earth has Toad ”our resident relativist neo-pelagian slave of superficiality” got to do with Geoff?
    Toad mocks and debunks Catholic teaching at every opportunity ; whereas Geoff loyally defends it.

    ———-

    P.S. This great bishop has set an example to others by refusing Communion to a pro-abort senator.
    “The bishop cited Canon 915: those “who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion.””
    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/02/23/bishop-denies-communion-to-pro-abortion-senator/

  13. mmvc says:

    These comments are completely devoid of any usefulness nor value.

    False. They are spot on. IMNSHO. ;o)

  14. JabbaPapa says:

    False. They are spot on. IMNSHO

    Shall I then find some epithet for you as well ? What a great idea it is to encourage people to do this !!

    I’ve got a little list : http://popefrancisbookofinsults.blogspot.fr

  15. mmvc says:

    Shall I then find some epithet for you as well ?

    Feel free, ‘dear’ Jabba. :o)

  16. kathleen says:

    Ah yes, the oftentimes mentioned “Pope Francis Little Large Book of Insults” – a masterpiece 😉 – that keeps growing and growing and growing….

  17. JabbaPapa says:

    Feel free, ‘dear’ Jabba

    What could possibly go wrong with this “idea” of overtly encouraging the practice of name-calling … or what, is this how we do “being a Pope Francis Catholic” on this site ?

  18. mmvc says:

    Well Jabba, you have in the past engaged in this practice using far stronger ‘epithets’ than ‘Jesuit’ or ‘jesuitical’. So much so that we had to ask you repeatedly to pipe down. But that’s water under the bridge so let’s move on…

  19. Toad says:

    Ahem.

    ”So much so that we had to ask you repeatedly to pipe down.’
    Right, Jabba – that’s you sorted. Either play the mutual admiration game with rest of the ‘moderating’ gang – or ‘pipe down.’
    Better yet, shut your gob entirely.
    (Although, you may still say the Rosary. But quietly – to yourself)

  20. mmvc says:

    This, from GloriaTV, is yet another example of the rapidly accelerating protestantisation of our Church and attacks on the Eucharist since the ‘Year of Luther’ when the arch-heretic was publicly hailed and celebrated, including by the pope:

    Two Protestant Female Ministers “Concelebrate” With Six Brazil Bishops

    On February 13, at the 41st so called “Earth Pilgrimage” in Mampituba, Brazil, six bishops concelebrated Holy Mass allowing two female Protestant ministers to join in.

    FratresInUnum.com (February 21) points out that a recording of the Mass shows how during consecration the two women stand at the altar wearing robes and stole, extending their hands as if they were concelebrating.

    The Mass was presided by Osório Bishop Jaime Kohl. The following prelates concelebrated:
    Archbishop Jacinto Bergmann of Pelotas
    Bishop Carlos Romulo of Monte Negro
    Bishop Alessandro Ruffinoni of Caxias do Sul
    Auxiliary Bishop Adilson Busin of Porto Alegre
    Auxiliary Bishop Aparecido Donizeti of Souza Porto Alegre
    Retired Bishop José Mario Stroeher of Rio Grande.

  21. Toad says:

    ”This, from GloriaTV, is yet another example of the rapidly accelerating protestantisation of our Church..”
    Suppose we were to consider what’s happening universally as more of a a ‘Catholiciasation,’ i.e. ‘Universlitiasion ,’ of The Church, than a ‘ protestantisation,’ ( whatever that is.)
    [DELETED]
    (But then, I’m thick. And have just come back from looking at El Escorial all day.
    I will say say no more. Not right now, anyway.)

  22. JabbaPapa says:

    mmvc :

    Well Jabba, you have in the past engaged in this practice using far stronger ‘epithets’ than ‘Jesuit’ or ‘jesuitical’

    My characterisations of certain adherents of parochialism, Americanism, sectarianism, schismaticism, pseudo-traditionalist Modernism, and all manner of similar ills, including those of some high Prelates or Bishops whose activities have been described (negatively and accurately) in MANY articles on this website do not constitute the manner of petty childish personal insults of this man “geoff” that you seek to not merely defend, but “justify”.

    I can remember having sought to directly insult here in such a manner exactly nobody.

    I can hardly help it if you should choose to take some criticisms against some so-called “remnant” or “resistance” pseudo-traditionalist Modernists personally, as they are certainly not intended in that manner.

    The Tradition of the Faith is not a revolutionary ideology centred around the incessant persecution or denunciation of “enemies”, nor any magical “return” to some non-existent golden age of yore. It is a Spiritual Revolution centred around the Revelation.

    Conversion to Faith in God.

    The confused notions of this man “geoff” about Jesuitical thought processes are the very antithesis of Catholic Tradition.

  23. mmvc says:

    Ok, Jabba, so you want to drag this out further.

    Well, let me remind you that over some time you used unacceptably strong language on this blog to insult traditional Catholics from The Remnant who happen to be Kathleen’s friends. So yes, there was a personal element involved. Thank you for no longer stooping so low. If you found Geoff’s response to your musings offensive, then perhaps you need to become a bit more thick-skinned, like Toad ;o)

    Unless of course ‘Jesuit’ and ‘jesuitical’ have become gross and unacceptable terms of abuse.

  24. JabbaPapa says:

    mmvc : Ok, Jabba, so you want to drag this out further

    In my experience, dragging things further than is needed has been the doing of others.

  25. JabbaPapa says:

    Meanwhile …

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/03/15/pope-francis-if-you-are-in-a-state-of-mortal-sin-you-cannot-receive-communion/

    The Pope : “Someone who has committed a serious sin must not approach Holy Communion without having obtained absolution in the sacrament of Reconciliation beforehand.

  26. kathleen says:

    In that case, Pope Francis should have no problem answering the long-awaited five questions of the dubia, should he?
    But of course, that’s not possible for him

    So I shouldn’t worry too much about it, Jabba… he will most likely contradict himself again tomorrow.

    P.S. Francis Says Whatever He Believes The Target Group Wants To Hear

  27. geoffkiernan says:

    A little orthodoxy interspersed with a lot of the heretical is a known and practiced tactic of the usurper. Just a little, mind you…. More commonly know as the Cramner ploy. Our resident Jesuit cant see that?

  28. JabbaPapa says:

    Our resident Jesuit cant see that?

    I’ll let our resident self-absorbed promethean neo-pelagian decide such things as usual in his own little mind as if that’s all that mattered …

  29. geoffkiernan says:

    O’right Young fella (smiley face) , I withdraw the bit about Jesuits….. Now… can you see the point I make?

  30. JabbaPapa says:

    People have for years now been ignoring the FACT that in the Diocese of Rome, Cardinal Vallini, the Vicar of Rome, who does most of the Bishopy stuff for his Bishop, explicitly excluded communion for adulterers in his guidelines to the clergy of Rome, so that I doubt that the same people will accept anything else from the Diocese of Rome to contradict their own impressions ; so no, though I understand your purposes in making it.

    Is the Pope perhaps also to blame for that Kasper chap’s latest brainwave describing homosexual civil unions as “equivalent” to marriage ?

  31. mmvc says:

    Is the Pope perhaps also to blame for that Kasper chap’s latest brainwave describing homosexual civil unions as “equivalent” to marriage ?

    Perhaps not, but he is responsible for describing ‘some cohabitations’ as “equivalent” to sacramental marriage:

    June 17, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) – Pope Francis spoke yesterday at a pastoral congress on the family for the Diocese of Rome, and his remarks are causing consternation among faithful Catholics. In off-the-cuff remarks, the pope made the dual claim that the “great majority” of Catholic marriages are “null” – in other words, not actual marriages – and that some cohabitating couples are in a “real marriage,” receiving the grace of the Sacrament.

    “I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity,” he said.

    The Vatican has provided video of the full remarks by the Pope as well as a full transcript of his remarks. In the transcript, however, the words of the Pope as heard clearly in the video (at 1:14:20) are changed from saying the “great majority” of Catholic marriages are null, to “a part” of them are null.

  32. mmvc says:

    Anyhow, let’s hope that the Supreme Pontiff will correct Kasper’s ‘latest brainwave’ before long.

    For the sake of souls.

  33. kathleen says:

    The Supreme Pontiff correct Kasper !? Hahaha… No such luck. He praises him to the skies, calling him an “outstanding theologian”!!

    In fact, Jabba, you have rather put your foot in it with that question @ 07:49. It’s glaringly obvious: Pope Francis and Cardinal Kasper are two of a kind.

  34. geoffkiernan says:

    Set Your Chin, grit your teeth and then dismiss everything pointed in your direction no matter how well proven or sustained by logic or reason it may be. A famous bloke once said ‘The buck stops here’. ‘Here’ means the top. The person in charge. To the extent the Pope endorses, by his silence and inaction and utters half truths and spreads confusion, YES he is responsible for the proclamations of his underlings. He more than anyone else is the guardian of the truth of the Church’ doctrines . To the extent his omissions contribute to and energizes the likes of Kasper and his ilk, YEAH…. guilty as charged.

  35. mmvc says:

    You’re right, Kathleen. As I was typing my comment @ 11:03, the thought of flying pigs entered my head.

  36. JabbaPapa says:

    mmvc :

    Perhaps not, but he is responsible for describing ‘some cohabitations’ as “equivalent” to sacramental marriage

    Which is quite simply basic dogmatic theology — it is precisely why not only many marriages not having been formally witnessed Sacramentally before the Church (particularly those of converts from Protestantism) are recognised as being both valid and licit, but it is also why those civilly “married” outside the Church (a.k.a. cohabiting) and then divorcing but then converting to the Catholic Faith must seek a formal annulment for a just reason for remarriage purposes.

    The idea that no unions outside of a Church marriage should be considered as being sacramentally binding upon the spouses is objectively heretical, but I’m frankly getting bored of having to trawl through the internet to support these clear evidences from old Ecumenical Councils and teachings from the Church Fathers, and of course from the Lord, in the face of your bad theology and general mauvaise foi in your habitual misinterpretations of my own statements, let alone those from the Ordinary Magisterium.

    That you have compared that statement from the Pope to the grotesquely warped suggestion by Kasper about homosexual unions is a manner of the Modernist Heresy, Pure & Simple.

    Catholic Orthodoxy is not constituted of one’s own personal opinions nor prejudice.

    This whole storm in a teacup is as ridiculous as it is ecclesially destructive —

    1) Pope affirms orthodox sacramental theology

    2) CP&S claims that by doing so he is promoting heresies because he is a liar and cannot possibly believe anything of the sort (paraphrased and parodied)

    This Pope-bashing is very deeply irrational, and I have exactly ZERO respect for it.

    The objectively insane conspiracy theory that has surfaced around Benedict XVI’s most recent letter just constitutes one more “triumph” for the Modernist Heresy.

    Most Modernists are utterly unaware of their own philosophical heterodoxy BTW.

    Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, “dear”.

  37. JabbaPapa says:

    how well proven or sustained by logic or reason

    That is the very essence of the Modernist Heresy.

  38. mmvc says:

    cohabitation
    kəʊhabɪˈteɪʃ(ə)n/Submit
    noun
    1.
    the state of living together and having a sexual relationship without being married.
    “couples increasingly prefer cohabitation to marriage”

    The pope might have referred to civilly married couples rather than cohabiting couples if that is what he meant.

    There is no pope-bashing going on here rather a lamenting of his lack of clarity.

    Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, “dear”.

  39. JabbaPapa says:

    I am very very sad — the Church is being hammered by three MAJOR Heresies simultaneously, four if you include the Great Schism, and most Catholics are blind to the fact that they are subjected to them in their own personal sectarian opinions of this or that or whichever unchaste heterodoxy that they may have been seduced into unwittingly, as by the snake of Eden :

    {3:4} Then the serpent said to the woman: “By no means will you die a death.
    {3:5} For God knows that, on whatever day you will eat from it, your eyes will be opened; and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil.”
    {3:6} And so the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and beautiful to the eyes, and delightful to consider. And she took from its fruit, and she ate. And she gave to her husband, who ate.

    The Revelation is not ours to make of as what we will, and yet hubris is all that I can see in the general frenzy of self-importance posing as Christian teaching, but not mitigating any of such heavy drink with even a simple drop of water.

    St Athanasius had it easy.

  40. JabbaPapa says:

    I was unaware that Doctrine should be determined by online dictionaries.

    I am also extremely pleased to be treated by the “dear” mmvc as an ignorant.

    The Heresies remain, and continue to poison the Church.

  41. geoffkiernan says:

    We must be from different planets, certainly different Churches.
    Why do you disparage things, the result of logic and reason? These thing along with clarity and simplicity seem to me to be the hallmarks of the truth. Discard them and the truth must falter and heresies will win out and, “continue to poison the Church”. I recall long ago the book by Frank Sheed, ‘Theology and Sanity.’
    One thing certain from your comment is that none of the above are your forte

  42. mmvc says:

    I was unaware that Doctrine should be determined by online dictionaries.

    There was nothing doctrinal about this papal off-the-cuff utterance on cohabitation which, as so often, resulted in confusion rather than confirmation in the Truth. How many couples felt validated in their cohabitation (as in living together in a sexual relationship without so much as civil marriage) by these scandalous remarks? No amount of scratching around for orthodoxy will alter that sad reality.

    I am also extremely pleased to be treated by the “dear” mmvc as an ignorant.

    That was not my intention. However, I may not be alone in finding your repeated use of dear in inverted commas a bit strange and creepy.

    The Heresies remain, and continue to poison the Church.

    Alas they do. As do the papal ‘brainwaves’ with their far reaching destructive consequences.

  43. johnhenrycn says:

    I thought Jabba had his own blog. Not that I wish him to stay there – by no means – but I think he ought to be more respectful of the ethos of this one if he chooses to comment here. Even if this was an ‘anti-pope’ website (which it most definitely is not – despite the presence of RJB) such as we find when we visit this one, he ought to tailor his comments to his audience somewhat more, and stop thinking he can browbeat with the force of his learning.

    The first full day of Spring is World Down Syndrome Day. Please, dear Jabba, be more respectful of people who find you very difficult to understand.
    ___
    Isn’t it an welcome invitation to serious reflection that Down’s children and their families only ask for one day of recognition, not a whole week, let alone a month, as some others do?

  44. JabbaPapa says:

    That was not my intention. However, I may not be alone in finding your repeated use of dear in inverted commas a bit strange and creepy.

    If it’s an affectation that you dislike, my dear, than you shouldn’t have started it — when I address people as “my dear”, it is neither dis-personal nor dishonest nor deceitful ; I do not disrespect you, my dear mmvc, not even when you take some effort to characterise me as “strange and creepy“, to very little apparent purpose nor pertinence nor point.

  45. JabbaPapa says:

    jh : Please, dear Jabba, be more respectful of people who find you very difficult to understand

    Well, thank you I suppose for your grotesque self-serving cack-handed attempt to portray me as being somehow “disrespectful” all the while full-blast expressing disapprobation against me, but then you never were very good at understanding either what the figure of ad hominem nor the virtue of tolerance even represent in the first place, to the detriment of your own Catholicity sad as that is.

    I have NO respect at all of any Heterodoxy of any manner at all nor whatsoever — and you’re frankly stupid if you think hat I have any “difficulty” in “understanding” people — let alone “very”, which is just pure presumptuousness, as well as some sort of rubbish accusation implicitly against my own Catholicity.

    people that I don’t understand indeed !!!

    What nonsense !!!

    I think he ought to be more respectful of the ethos of this one if he chooses to comment here

    Catholicism Pure and Simple is not an “ethos” — to think that it might be is sectarian, parochial, and schismatic. Oh and BTW, your suggestion that I might not “respect” the Catholicism Pure & Simple is a “false testimony against thy neighbour” and so a manifest & deliberate mortal sin just FYI, and so please go to Confession before presenting yourself to Communion, because as the Pope has just reminded us all : “Someone who has committed a serious sin must not approach Holy Communion without having obtained absolution in the sacrament of Reconciliation beforehand.

    he (Jabba) ought to tailor his comments to his audience

    Modernism Pure & Simple.

    The Catholicity is not “tailored” to the desires of these persons nor those.

    And CRIPES the hypocrisy !!! Never minds the outright attacks against the Roman Patriarch because he DARES to “tailor his comments to his audience“, eh ?

    Deux poids et deux mesures, that’s the “measure” of jh and his selfish ideology.

    Matthew : {7:1} “Do not judge, so that you may not be judged.
    {7:2} For with whatever judgment you judge, so shall you be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, so shall it be measured back to you.
    {7:3} And how can you see the splinter in your brother’s eye, and not see the board in your own eye?
    {7:4} Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the splinter from your eye,’ while, behold, a board is in your own eye?
    {7:5} Hypocrite, first remove the board from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.
    {7:6} Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not cast your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they may trample them under their feet, and then, turning, they may tear you apart.

    Your attempts to vilify my Faith are despicable.

  46. kathleen says:

    I must intervene here and I regret not having done so at least two days ago, but other personal matters have kept me occupied elsewhere….

    Jabba, I don’t know what your “purpose” is either in your blatant lack of charity above towards mmvc (however much you now try to cover it up in your patronising comment @ 01:42), or your twisted wordy way in trying to make out that this traditional and intelligent team mate of ours is “ignorant” and guilty of the “Modernist heresy”. NOTHING could be further from the truth on either count. She and her delightful husband (who I know personally) are extremely kind, devout, knowledgeable and 100% orthodox Catholics… whatever you say.

    I am not going to try to untangle your accusations to mmvc when Geoff @ 05:44 has already summed it up neatly. Yes Jabba, it is you who is making what is very basic Catholic Doctrine on marriage and morality into something complex, tricky and full of exceptions. All mmvc did was to expound the Church’s timeless teachings. You are becoming a mouthpiece for Pope Francis… and sadly (because we are talking about the pope of the Catholic Church here) that is NOT a compliment!

    To even hint at such a thing as “cohabitation” (that must necessarily include not only heterosexuals, but also gays, lesbos, polygamist, etc. sexual unions) could be compared to marriage between one man and one woman before God, is IMHO, a prime example of that “essence of the Modernist Heresy”!

    And now you are attacking JH too for doing no more than asking you to respect the “ethos” of this blog… which, believe it or not, holds the Papacy in very high esteem!
    That, Jabba, is the sole reason we are so deeply concerned at seeing the current incumbent of the Holy Chair of Saint Peter almost daily mocking the teachings of his antecedents, and belittering all who defend Church Doctrine in his efforts to turn the Church into some sort of green, social club.

    AFAIK, only the real progressives (who share this Protestant outlook for the Church) are the ones still singing the praises of Pope Francis.

  47. mmvc says:

    If it’s an affectation that you dislike, my dear, than you shouldn’t have started it

    I don’t recall ever having done so. I’m afraid that your use of the term with inverted commas comes across precisely as dishonest and deceptive. You’ve recently addressed Geoff in this creepy way too.

    you take some effort to characterise me as “strange and creepy“, to very little apparent purpose nor pertinence nor point.

    It is your use of the word in less than pleasant contexts that I have described most effortlessly in this way. Not you.

  48. mmvc says:

    Thank you for your kind words, Kathleen, but after reading Jabba’s pompous outburst in response to JH at 13:38, I feel that his exchange with me was a mere walk in the park. :o(

  49. JabbaPapa says:

    your twisted wordy way in trying to make out

    I do not believe what I am accused of believing, and I do not accuse anyone of whatever from false inferences that some in here seem to love insisting upon.

    I’m afraid that your use of the term with inverted commas comes across precisely as dishonest and deceptive

    Then you should never have used it.

    She and her delightful husband (who I know personally) are extremely kind, devout, knowledgeable and 100% orthodox Catholics… whatever you say

    You would be incapable of finding any statement from me to the opposite.

    Yes Jabba, it is you who is making what is very basic Catholic Doctrine on marriage and morality into something complex, tricky and full of exceptions

    That is a grotesquely false accusation.

    You are becoming a mouthpiece for Pope Francis

    That is a false statement. But the fact that you are implicitly divorcing the Roman Pontiff from the Orthodoxy of the Faith, on the basis of his recent strong statement in favour of it, is telling.

    To even hint at such a thing as “cohabitation” (that must necessarily include not only heterosexuals, but also gays, lesbos, polygamist, etc. sexual unions) could be compared to marriage between one man and one woman before God

    Delirious false conjecture on the part of activist Papefigues is objectively flawed.

    And now you are attacking JH too

    Please do not stoop to the hypocrisy of claiming that my reactions to the ad hominem tactics of jh are somehow of my own responsibility alone.

    the ones still singing the praises of Pope Francis

    Please can you provide a link to such “praises” that you attribute to me.

    No, I’ve only ever denounced irrational hatred of the Pontiff.

  50. mmvc says:

    Then you should never have used it.

    Show me where I used it as I don’t believe I did. Whereas you do so repeatedly, not only to me.

  51. kathleen says:

    Jabba, you have mixed up your response to mmvc and me in one comment, but no matter, most of your indignant retorts: “I never said that…”, are aimed at me.

    I am not going to take the points one by one because ALL the proof for what I said in my last comment is up above for anyone caring to go through all this thread of comments… AND, of course, in the crazy five years of this current Pontificate that proves all of our points. If what I said to you is not evident in black and white in your comments above, then it is CLEARLY implied at in your responses, especially when you call a legitimate defence of Catholic teaching as the “essence of the Modernist heresy”.
    But I will just mention this one:

    ”I’ve only ever denounced irrational hatred of the Pontiff.”

    The only “irrational hatred” you will find here is for the horrific words, actions and confusion spread by Pope Francis, and not for the poor deluded man himself. He is on our sidebar where prayers are asked for him. But over and above every temporary Pontiff chosen to govern the One True Church (and who may well err in his non-binding utterances) are the Eternal Words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and forever taught by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

    As I have already said above (more or less), sometimes Pope Francis will give out true Catholic statements… often only to contradict them, or muddle them up with strange insinuations, at other times. He thus creates such continual doctrinal confusion among the faithful.

  52. JabbaPapa says:

    Show me where I used it as I don’t believe I did. Whereas you do so repeatedly, not only to me.

    You did, and I haven’t.

  53. JabbaPapa says:

    your indignant retorts

    dear kathleen, I’m by no means indignant, simply sad

    in the crazy five years of this current Pontificate that proves all of our points

    I actually have no idea what it might be that you suppose me to be arguing “against” — all I can say is that after I quoted the Roman Patriarch as stating a most basic orthodox requirement for Sacramental Grace, I have been subjected to all manner of abuses for failing to conclude therefrom that he is in favour of the exact opposite.

    And cripes, as far as Modernism is concerned, and the Americanism, those who believe in these heresies, even completely obliviously, are those most unlikely to understand them.

    He thus creates such continual doctrinal confusion among the faithful

    No — some among the Faithful are confused enough to imagine that the statements of a Pope might somehow redefine the Doctrine.

    Anyone “confused” by this Pope is weak in Faith.

  54. mmvc says:

    You did, and I haven’t.

    False, on both counts.

  55. mmvc says:

    I have better things to do with my life than scroll through comments for your sarcastic use of ‘dear’, but for the record:

    On this thread on Feb 24th @ 06:11, Geoff was the first to be addressed by you in this way.
    My use of it immediately afterwards was clearly no more than a way of showing you that this was not particularly pleasant.

  56. johnhenrycn says:

    The main reason, perhaps the only one, I listen to this Mouthpiece of the pope, who calls me “grotesque”, “self-serving”, “cack-handed”, “frankly stupid”, “presumptuous”, “rubbish”, “selfish”, “despicable” [and guilty of] “manifest and deliberate mortal sin” in dire need of Confession for having mentioned his disrespect of this forum and its people, is because he’s an unpaid Mouthpiece who speaks from his good heart, not from his purse – or from his mind.

    He doesn’t actually take time to read and understand the comments of others, preferring instead a shotgun approach where everything they say is beneath his expertise and collegial notice. Very abrupt. Very dismissive. Did I mention grotesque, self-serving, cack-handed, stupid, presumptuous, rubbish, selfish and despicable? No, I did not.

  57. geoffkiernan says:

    mmvc actually used the ‘P’ word at 1521 and JH’ comment above,”….where everything they say is beneath his expertise and collegial notice.” is all but the definition of the ‘P’ word. Sorry people but I first used the ‘P’ word back in May of 2015

  58. kathleen says:

    ”I actually have no idea what it might be that you suppose me to be arguing “against” “

    Jabba, I’ll be honest with you… nobody else has any “idea” either, but you do “argue” at any criticism of Pope Francis, don’t you? Every time anyone points out the many inconsistencies or unorthodox proceedings of Pope Francis, no matter how mild the criticism might be, you jump up immediately to make excuses for him, pointing the blame at any of his Modernist minions, like Card. Kasper (as on this thread) that he fawns over. At the same time you tend to disparage the commenter who has expressed a very valid orthodox view, based on daily glaring evidence we are all receiving – much of it on live interviews of PF and also his writings – but which differ from your analysis of PF’s meaning… or something or other. That’s it in a nutshell! Can you not see that those you unnecessarily belittle and sometimes insult (although you deny doing so) are going to be offended?

    ”Anyone “confused” by this Pope is weak in Faith.“

    No!! That is clearly not true!
    I have seen the sorry state my own very Novus Ordo parish in this little town has fallen to these last years with all sorts of strange interpretations of the pope’s words being bandied around. They are good, well-meaning people of Faith – I love them – but who think anything the pope says or does must be right! Only some of the most intuitive or knowledgeable can see through the farce. (It’s why I go to the beautiful churches in the nearby city where one of my sons lives whenever possible, as there one can find more Catholic orthodoxy among the people and in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.)

    There are millions of good, devout Catholics in the world who have a strong but simple Faith. They have not been blessed with such a thorough, intense Catholic education like those of us who mostly comment here. Many are unable to see through this muddled fog of confusion Francis has created with Amoris Laetitia and everything else, (e.g., his praising baby murderers, sex-predators, active gays, whilst scolding those who lovingly offer him bouquets of Rosaries, who defend and hold to Doctrine, the Traditional Latin Mass, etc.)

    Granted, neither Pope Francis nor any pope or anybody else has the authority to change the Church’s Doctrine and Dogma… but (and it’s a big “BUT”) by sowing seeds of confusion and ambiguity, as he does almost every time he opens his mouth or picks up a pen, he is WEAKENING the teaching of the Church he has been elected to govern. “Feed my sheep!” Our Lord commanded Peter (meaning with the Truth of My Teachings of course) … NOT, “Say one thing one day, and something else the next”!

    And Jabba, I really think you owe JH an apology. He said nothing at all to you that merited such a vicious attack.

  59. johnhenrycn says:

    “He said nothing at all to you that merited such a vicious attack.”

    Especially painful was him calling me a “poledancer” on that earlier thread 😉

    Maybe CP&S should post one of those Comments are now closed notices on this one. That way we can retire from the field of battle bloody, but unbowed.

  60. JabbaPapa says:

    @ JH

    He doesn’t actually take time to read and understand the comments of others

    tum te tum

    Very abrupt. Very dismissive.

    Thank you for this demonstration of how airily above such personal attacks you yourself are located.

    @ kathleen

    but you do “argue” at any criticism of Pope Francis, don’t you?

    No.

    daily glaring evidence we are all receiving

    I’m not the one trying to warp the Pope’s statement on the state of mortal sin being incompatible with the reception of Holy Communion into some sort of dishonesty or “trick”.

    Can you not see that those you unnecessarily belittle and sometimes insult (although you deny doing so) are going to be offended?

    Actually, it saddens me greatly that my denunciations of certain false statements and bad interpretations and willful parochialism by these or those is quite liable to be perceived as insulting — though I must admit that the ongoing for years now hostility of jh is hard to stomach.

    But I can’t help it when I point out that Modernism and Americanism are entrenched in certain “traditionalist” attitudes, that people can sometimes feel insulted by it. Regardless of the fact that this does not constitute any manner of personal attack.

    I’m sorry if people can be offended, but I absolutely refuse to abandon the orthodoxy nor the Catholicity of the Faith for mere social purposes.

    Many are unable to see through this muddled fog of confusion Francis has created with Amoris Laetitia and everything else

    I cannot argue against that fact.

    The point is, kathleen, I’ve never even tried to — the current Pope uses paradox in his teaching very frequently, and it is inevitable that this tactic of his will lead to confusions and misunderstandings and absence of clarity.

    BUT one simply cannot set aside the earlier teaching of Pope Benedict XVI regarding the absolute need to always interpret Church teachings according to a hermeneutic of continuity, that is to say, within the Orthodoxy and the Catholicity of the Faith — the willful misinterpretation of footnotes in Amoris Laetitia is the diametric opposite of such proper understanding.

    Meanwhile, people carry on gleefully spreading about the LIE that the Pope might somehow be “in favour of” communion for adulterers, which is objectively shameful — and I do not apologise if those who are keen on believing such lies might be “offended” by my pointing out that they are, in fact, lies.

    The Truth is to be looked for in the Revelation Himself — not in such rancid political games.

    And Jabba, I really think you owe JH an apology

    No, I don’t.

    He has never provided me with one, and it’s quite clear he has no intention of ever doing so — and I refuse to apologise to someone who clearly desires to subject me to continual personal attacks for the foreseeable future.

    As stated, if WordPress had a “block” function, I’d use it.

  61. johnhenrycn says:

    You talk too much, you worry me to death. You talk too much, you worry my pet.
    You talk about people you don’t even know. You talk about people wherever you go.
    You talk about people you’ve never seen. You talk too much, you make me scream.
    You talk toooo much.

  62. mmvc says:

    As stated, if WordPress had a “block” function, I’d use it.

    So would I, but certainly not for JH!

    I too think he is owed an apology for the disgraceful and uncalled for tirade you subjected him to @ 13:38. As Kathleen once observed, JH can be a tease but there is not a nasty bone in him.

  63. JabbaPapa says:

    Meanwhile, here’s what the California catholics are encouraging people to teach :

  64. kathleen says:

    It’s an abomination, Jabba, and if this truly comes from California “catholics”, then it is an even greater abomination and scandal! “Child abuse”, pure and simple! It is really sad that so many (so-called) “catholics” are falling for the lies of the PC, brain-washed idiots running the “show” in the West – including the political, civil and (ahem) some Church authorities.

    Just take a look at THIS* post from Les Femmes that I read this morning! (I was going to re-blog it on CP&S, but it is so utterly “sickening” to see what disgusting evils are being perpetrated in our degenerate Western societies nowadays, that I felt I couldn’t do so.)
    * [WARNING: this post may harm the sensibilities of readers!]

  65. mmvc says:

    The above graphic was used at this year’s LA Religious Ed Conference which Fr Z describes as the Three Days of Darkness. Here is his post about it:

    http://wdtprs.com/blog/2018/03/how-bad-was-the-three-days-of-darkness-this-year/

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

w

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: