The Story of Garabandal – fifty years later

Garabandal

During a time when I was working in Spain I befriended a very devout little old lady called Blanca, who I had often seen deep in prayer in front of the Blessed Sacrament. In the course of our conversations together, she told me the fascinating story of Garabandal, a tiny village in northern Spain, in the province of Santander, near the rugged and beautiful mountains called ‘Picos de Europa’. (The full name of the village is San Sebastian de Garabandal.)  Blanca was an eyewitness to some of the most extraordinary events that took place there from 18th June 1961 to 13th November 1965.

As we draw near to the fiftieth anniversary of the first apparition, let us look at some of the facts of the story of Garabandal. (Please note that these are private revelations and no one is obliged to believe in them.)

The Seers

The Seers

Four girls: Conchita, Mari Loli, Jacinta and Mari Cruz, aged between 11 and 12 years of age, had many ongoing visions, ecstasies and locutions with the Blessed Virgin Mary. The apparitions were so numerous and some of these were so disarmingly normal, natural and sweet, that it has set the apparition site of Garabandal apart from any other where the Blessed Virgin has previously appeared.

The Visions

Whilst the four girls were playing in an orchard on 18th June 1961 there was a sudden thunderclap and to their surprise they saw before them the bright figure of the Archangel Michael. He appeared to them again in the same place on the following days and announced that on 2nd July they would see Our Lady. This was the beginning of the Garabandal apparitions. The news spread quickly through the region. The 2nd July was a Sunday and the town was crowded with people from all social levels and very many from out of town, among them several physicians and priests. At 6pm the girls went to the place where the Angel had appeared, and immediately entered into ecstasy. Our Lady appeared to them accompanied by two angels, one being St. Michael. After this first apparition there were many more. They spoke openly and familiarly with their Heavenly Mother and said the rosary in her presence. During 1961 and 1962 Our Lady appeared several times each week. The four girls did not always receive the apparition together. Sometimes only one, other times two or three of them saw the vision. Nor was it always at the same hour of the day. Our Lady appeared many times at night and even early in the morning, in an attitude of sacrifice and penance, at the same hours when Our Lord is most offended by the sins of men. Even so, the girls would arise the following morning, as early as usual, to work in the fields, carrying bundles of grass or wood, or tending the cattle and sheep, without showing signs of fatigue. Mari Cruz had her last vision in 1962, Mari Loli and Jacinta in 1963, and only Conchita continued to have visions until 1965, although these became less and less frequent.

When the vision appeared, the girls fell instantaneously on their knees, striking the sharp rocks with a loud noise that was frightening, yet they showed no signs of injury. The expression on their faces was suddenly transformed, becoming extraordinarily beautiful, sweet, one of profound mysticism. They were completely absorbed in their rapture, unaware of anyone or any material thing around them except for each other. In fact all attempts to distract them failed. They did not react to pricks, burns or blows, nor even to the powerful beams of strong light focused on them when their eyes would not so much as flicker or blink. Quite the contrary, their eyes remained wide open, expressing a look of intense joy. During these ecstasies, which lasted anything from a few minutes to several hours, time did not seem to count. On many occasions they remained immobile in off-balance, beautiful “sculptured-like” positions, heads tilted far back, eyes looking up, kneeling on the rocks or bare-legged in the snow. At the end of the ecstasy they showed no signs of excitation or nervousness, just deep, profound peace and joy.

Many visitors and villagers gave the girls various objects, such as bibles, rosaries, scapulars, medals, crucifixes, wedding rings, etc. for Our Lady to kiss. In ecstasy, the girls raised them up to Her and She kissed them. Then, guided by Our Lady, the girls returned the items to their correct owners, even in cases where the person had first confided the object to someone else so the child did not know who the real owner was. Things “kissed” by Our Lady have been the instruments of very special favours.

There was other phenomena during the time of the visions, including ecstatic walks when the girls seemed to defy the laws of gravity as though endowed by some sort of spiritual agility. Guided solely by the vision, they ran or walked at great speed down the steep mountainside, even backwards, so that it was impossible for the astonished spectators to follow them.

The Miracle of the Host

(footage of the miraculous Host starts at 2:45)

The Miracle of the Host is one of the most amazing occurrences at Garabandal. Previously, on occasions when their parish priest from the neighbouring village was unable to visit Garabandal, the girls recounted how they had sometimes received Holy Communion from an angel of the Lord who had appeared to them with a golden chalice, requesting that they pray the Confiteor beforehand. Then on 18th July 1962, when the town was crowded with visitors, this miracle was captured on film. At midnight Conchita, who had remained in her home continually surrounded by visitors, entered into ecstasy and went out into the street. At a short distance from her house she fell down on her knees in the midst of the crowd. Lanterns were focussing on her as she put out her tongue upon which nothing was resting, as everyone could see. In a few moments, a white host appeared on her tongue and remained there for a few minutes.

Father Luis Marie Andreu

The only other person to see Our Blessed Mother at Garabandal was a 38 year old Spanish Jesuit priest, Father Luis Marie Andreu. On 8th August 1961 Father Luis was among the spectators at ‘The Pines’ above the village when suddenly he became an integral part of the Garabandal drama. He was heard to say, “Miracle! Miracle!” Not only did he see the Virgin Mary, but he was shown the forthcoming Great Miracle. Although he had never had any history of serious illness, he died that same night of complete joy. His final words were:

Oh! What a sweet and lovely mother we have in Heaven….how happy I am….what a favour the Blessed Virgin has bestowed on me! How fortunate we are to have a mother like her in Heaven!…… The girls have given us an example of how we must act with the Blessed Virgin. There is no doubt in my mind that the things involving the girls are true. Why should the Blessed Virgin have chosen us? This is the happiest day of my life.

With these words Father Luis lowered his head and died. In a subsequent vision, the Virgin told the seers that Fr. Luis had seen her and a preview of the Great Miracle and that he died of joy.

Our Blessed Mother showed special attention and concern for all priests, repeatedly asking that they come to Garabandal. She gave the girls the ability to recognise them even when they came dressed as laymen, revealing the state of their souls. Over and over again she asked everyone to pray and make sacrifices for priests, because Satan is constantly trying to tempt and trap the souls of priests. She taught the children that priests were more important even than the angels because by means of their ordination they alone among all men have the power to change the bread and wine into the Sacred Body and Blood of Christ during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The Warning and Great Miracle

The Blessed Virgin spoke of a Warning to come, and a Great Miracle which will be announced in advance by Conchita – no one knows when – yet these do not appear to be the main reasons for Her coming. (A ‘Great Sign’ will afterwards be permanently visible at The Pines above the village.) Like any mother who loves her children, the Blessed Virgin, taught and guided the girls, in a natural and loving manner, the path to Heaven. She lamented the sins of mankind that so offend Her Divine Son, and she repeated many times the need for prayer and penance for priests, love for the Holy Eucharist, Eucharistic Devotion, and visits to the Blessed Sacrament. Only then, if these messages are not heeded, will a ‘Chastisement’ befall mankind. This seems to be very much in line with other apparition sites, notably Fatima and La Salette.

The Fruits of Garabandal

The fruits of Garabandal are all very positive. In spite of the fact that the memories of these visions of Our Lady dimmed in the girls’ minds, even to the point when they said they had never happened, they reiterated the truth of them later on. (Our Lady had foretold them, much to their incredulity at the time, that this would happen.) All four girls married and had children; Mari Cruz’s husband is Spanish and she is the only one still living in Spain; Conchita, Mari Loli and Jacinta married Americans, and Conchita and Jacinta are living in the USA. They lead humble prayerful lives, fulfilling their duties as wives and mothers. Mari Loli, who also lived in the USA, died just before her 60th birthday in April 2009 after a long illness and much suffering, both physical and spiritual. Mari Loli offered all her sufferings up for the sanctification of priests, just as Our Lady had requested of her.

Another of the good fruits of Garabandal is the conversion of many sinners and unbelievers and those of different faiths. Those suffering from religious indifference have experienced an increase in Faith, Hope and Charity.

Conclusion

The Catholic Church has prudently withheld her opinion over the apparitions at Garabandal, nor will it pronounce on them until the promised ‘Warning’, and the ‘Miracle’ take place. Nevertheless, the Bishop of Santander, Don Eugenio Beitia wrote:

We point out, however, that we have not found anything deserving of ecclesiastical censorship or condemnation either in the doctrine or in the spiritual recommendations that have been publicised as having been addressed to the faithful…..”

Saint Padre Pio of Pietrelcina and Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta endorsed the apparitions too.

All the Blessed Virgin’s messages urging people to give greater value to the Holy Eucharist, go regularly to Confession, pray more (especially for priests), make sacrifices, meditate on the Passion of Jesus, have a holy fear of offending God, be obedient to the Magisterium of the Church, and above all to lead good lives, are totally in unison with Catholic teaching. At the Blessed Virgin’s last apparition to Conchita she said: “Conchita, I am not coming only for you but I am coming for all my children, with a desire to bring them closer to Our Hearts.” (i.e. The Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.)

To learn more about Garabandal:  http://www.garabandal.org/

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102 Responses to The Story of Garabandal – fifty years later

  1. Mr Badger says:

    In fact all attempts to distract them failed. They did not react to pricks, burns or blows, nor even to the powerful beams of strong light focused on them when their eyes would not so much as flicker or blink.

    Who carried out all these rather mean spirited tests?

  2. Ed Kelly says:

    Good job. Just a week ago the Garabandal pastor, Father Rolando, said Mass outside the village church celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the first appearance of the angel there. In his homily he spoke of the special things that happened at the village starting fifty years ago and ended reading a letter from one of the “visionaries” Conchita Gonzalez Keena. Another of the girls, Jacinta, was present and spoke with reporters.
    Material on the celebration and more up-to-date information on Garabandal can be found on line at the Santander daily, el Diario Montanes.

  3. kathleen says:

    Thank you very much for this interesting information Ed.
    I met Jacinta myself when, with a group of friends, I visited Garabandal in 1996. She had come from the USA, with her husband and daughter, to see her mother.

  4. My thoughts on the “three more Popes” is that a new Era has begun and many incredible things will soon begin. We see how the “stem cell” era is just beginning and with it such benefits to mankind: very long lifetimes, growing of body organs (bladder, throat, kidneys, heart) etc. And the recent invention of “cold fusion” fusion at very low temperatures will bring abundant and safe energy, replacing the dangerous Atomic Power plants.. “On Earth as in Heaven” could very well be in store for us – if we do as we are told by our Lady in Heaven!
    JDH

  5. BLESSED MADRE MARAVILLAS OF JESUS, O.C.D. (1891-1974) was convinced of the authenticity of Garabandal.

    http://www.mensagemdegarabandal.com/products/blessed-madre-maravillas-of-jesus/

  6. Marian. says:

    Marian. Rio

    Very. Good job, thank you all for this information.

    Yo. Fui. Dos veces y tuve la suerte de conocer a jacinta. Y. Recibir las gracias de la santisima. Virgen. La. Virgen sigue concediendo muchas Bendiciones a Los que llegan a garabandal con. Fe.

  7. kathleen says:

    Gracias Marian.
    Estoy de acuerdo contigo, que Garabandal es un sitio muy especial. Yo tambien creo en las apariciones de la Virgen Maria, pero hasta que no se cumplen las profecias que ella conto a las niñas, la iglesia no puede pronunciar sobre su auntenticidad.

  8. toadspittle says:

    .
    “They did not react to pricks, burns or blows, nor even to the powerful beams of strong light focused on them when their eyes would not so much as flicker or blink. Quite the contrary, their eyes remained wide open, expressing a look of intense joy. “

    Why not just chuck them on a bonfire, and be done with it?

  9. kathleen says:

    Well, obviously dear Toad, all this was done to see if the little girls were faking their visions! It would be pretty hard not to react to all that ‘torture’ with a resounding “OUCH!”, rather than remain still with a continued expression of “intense joy”, don’t you think? ;-)

    The same sort of thing was tried on St. Bernadette of Lourdes and the little children of Fatima, with same result. This naturally inclines one to believe that these visions of the Blessed Virgin were authentic, just as the children affirmed.

  10. Jerry says:

    Judging by the photo, Garabandal looks to be a beautiful village. Lovely. An odd story, then again it was the sixties

  11. kathleen says:

    Hi Jerry! Yes, Garabandal is a very pretty village set in a beautiful wide open green landscape. (It rains a lot in this part of Spain.) You can see for miles from the top of the hill…… where many of the supposed visions of Our Lady took place. One cannot help imagining that it would be the ideal setting for the foretold ‘miracle’ to take place, where literally millions of people could congregate at one time.

    Personally I don’t find the story ‘odd‘ at all. The prevailing sixties‘ mentality did not seem to have reached the little village of Garabandal.

  12. Jerry says:

    Kathleen, the stunning photo at the top of this post inpired me to do some google-image searching. Can you tell me what the nearby mountain range is called? (Although I can’t tell if it’s north, south, or any which way :-) )

    Yes, it does seem like an ideal setting for a miracle, I don’t know enough to comment on that, but the setting is certainly quite something

  13. toadspittle says:

    .

    “Our Lady appeared many times at night and even early in the morning, in an attitude of sacrifice and penance, at the same hours when Our Lord is most offended by the sins of men.”

    Toad takes this to mean that Our Lord is, very naturally, constantly offended by the sins of men (no mention of the sins of women, he notes) but, for some unspecified reason, is even more offended at certain times of day, than at others.

    Why should this be, Toad wonders?

    .

  14. Pastorious says:

    John de Herrera offers us a timely reminder that the stem cell era is here, with the ability to grow various organs. Is it beyond the bounds of possiblity that one day we might ‘grow’ a Pope who satisfied the needs of traditionalist and progressive alike? :)

    Jerry wisely speaks of this very special decade when we flowered into a new era and the apparitions took place, the children displaying such “ecstasy” and “joy”.

  15. toadspittle says:

    .

    Be nice to die of joy, wouldn’t it?

  16. Jerry says:

    I’d rather die of ecstasy Toad.

  17. kathleen says:

    Jerry, sorry for the delay in answering your question about the name of the mountain range surrounding Garabandal. I believe it is the the Peña Sagra (that could be translated as ‘Holy Rocks’!) of Cantabria, Northern Spain, located about 600 meters above sea level.

    @ Pastorius
    What a lot of balderdash! :lol:

  18. lonnie says:

    any of the girls/women have facebook account?

  19. Habtom says:

    please notify me of any updates or anything devolvement. And thank you for everything God bless

  20. Peter Nuyens says:

    Peter says: Please look at the http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com as folow-up or fulfilment of Garabandal.

  21. johnkonnor72 says:

    >>>john konnor says….dont bother because garabandal is the work of the devil trying to get us to worry about chastisements and impending doom rather than to live a good virtuous life full of joy and tempered by the graces afforded through the sacraments…running backwards in a trance at incredible speed over rough terrain without ever bumping or falling would probably qualify as a characteristic of demonic influence more than anything else….among other strange occurances observed at garabandal….

  22. Brother Burrito says:

    I am troubled by some of the footage at Garabandal too. The strange synchronised marching just looks so undignified, and the sudden neck extension and kneeling look so violent!

    The Church has wisely neither approved or disapproved the apparitions there. She is biding her time as the alleged signs and miracles have to happen within Conchita’s lifetime. We’ll see.

  23. kathleen says:

    Yes, the Catholic Church has not endorsed the apparitions of Garabandal yet……. for the very reasons BB has pointed out. Conchita (now 63 or 64 years of age) would have to announce the coming miracle in advance, giving time for people to gather there to witness it, and nothing has been said so far.

    Nonetheless, the Church has said that nothing the girls have told of the messages the Blessed Virgin Mary supposedly gave them goes against anything in Church teaching. The messages are not only about chastisements and suchlike, but reiterate many of the things modern man seems to have forgotten: the need to pray more, make sacrifices, lead pure and holy lives, etc. A lot of the messages were about priests, how beloved and special they are, and the importance of their teaching the fullness of the Faith whilst leading exemplary lives as witnesses of Christ. The Holy Eucharist was also a big part of the messages of Garabandal.
    It is really very hard to imagine that the Devil could be the author of such good, holy and Catholic teachings!

    Another big difference with other unapproved apparition sites (e.g. Medjugorje) is the endorsement of many canonised saints of the Catholic Church, as mentioned above.
    Malachi Martin (whom we have been discussing recently) was very taken with the piety and humility of Conchita, who he met in the U.S., and he knew well that “by their fruits thou shalt know them”! He had a completely open mind about the Garabandal apparitions, whereas he condemned Medjurgorje.

  24. JabbaPapa says:

    It is really very hard to imagine that the Devil could be the author of such good, holy and Catholic teachings!

    http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/12/sister-magdalena-of-cross-nun-who-made.html

  25. JabbaPapa says:

    There is no-one as wise as the Devil in imitating holiness.

    I am very wary of the supernatural events at Garabandal.

  26. kathleen says:

    “There is no-one as wise as the Devil in imitating holiness

    Those are very unsettling words Jabba, and yet you might be right! We are warned time and again of the “wickedness and snares of the devil”.

    But do you know of any other site of supposed apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary where the “fruits” – meaning the lives of the seers and many others who have been drawn to amend their lives after visiting Garabandal, or reading about it – have been so changed for the better?
    The devil wants to lead souls to perdition…. not to Heaven!

    I cannot help feeling, as I said above, that it is surely doubtful that such great saints as Padre Pio and Mother Teresa of Calcutta…. and the lesser-known Blessed Madre Maravillas de Jesus, who all believed in the apparitions, could be so completely deceived, don’t you think?

    P.S. The story of the nun in the link you give Jabba (and that I have seen before) shows how Sr. Magdalena’s possession by the devil was revealed. The remaining three seers of Garabandal (now women in their sixties) all lead exemplary Christian lives, with no signs of any such ‘demonic’ influence. Mary Loli died a holy death a few years ago after a prolonged illness and much suffering that she bore with tremendous fortitude and patience, offering it all up for the conversion of sinners and for priests.

  27. Mark says:

    Why Conchita is never asked if the date she had on her mind over 50 years ago is still ahead of now ? She was told the date of the Miracle would be this far in time?

  28. kathleen says:

    Mark,
    As far as I know, Conchita keeps very quiet on everything to do with the Garabandal Apparitions these days, but the last time she did talk about them she reiterated their veracity.
    She leads a very simple, good and devoutly Catholic life – frequenting Holy Mass, praying the rosary daily and holding holy hours in her house for friends and neighbours (who I believe are quite unaware she was one of the ‘seers’ at Garabandal!)

  29. JabbaPapa says:

    Kathleen — I cannot help feeling, as I said above, that it is surely doubtful that such great saints as Padre Pio and Mother Teresa of Calcutta…. and the lesser-known Blessed Madre Maravillas de Jesus, who all believed in the apparitions, could be so completely deceived, don’t you think?

    I can hardly be the judge of that !!!

    I was simply offering a reminder that some supernatural events are works of the devil.

    Supernaturality is not proof of godliness nor holiness !!!

    On the other hand — Satan himself is an angelic being, albeit a fallen one, and he has angelic powers. What he lacks in comparison with the angels, and with the Faithful mortals, is Communion with the Holy Spirit, and sharing in holy love with God.

    When the devil acts supernaturally he cannot help but provide evidence of God, because his supernaturality is a gift from God in the first place — this means, however, that not even the holiness itself of the seers is sufficient cause to accept the Garabandal apparitions.

    Holiness for the wrong reasons remains holiness — in a similar way as an investment benefit on the basis of a mistake is still a benefit.

    There is nevertheless a worthwhile comparison to be made — the events at Lourdes and at Fatima are very hard to disagree with from any truly cohesive, orthodox Catholic point of view. Not so with Garabandal or Medjugorje.

    It would be absolutely devastating if Conchita had been told a sophisticated lie by Satan, and were then to renounce the Faith from believing it, but then nothing happening on the predicted date !!! How many could lose their Faith if such a thing were to happen ?

  30. kathleen says:

    Jabba,
    Yes, I do see your point….. and I quite agree with what you say in your last paragraph. That would indeed be a disaster! It is why the Church has made no declaration on the supposed apparitions at Garabandal, except to say that there is nothing in any of the ‘messages’ the girls have promulgated that goes against Catholic Doctrine and Teaching.
    (I believe some of the thousands of ‘messages’ to have apparently come out of Medjurgorje are very strange, and their orthodoxy is more than dubious.)

    Don’t you find the story of Fr. Luis Marie Andreu extraordinary though? I find it hard to see how the devil could fake the future Vision of a Miracle, and fool this holy Jesuit so greatly, that it should actually cause his death!!

    However, unless the foretold public Warning and Miracle take place within Conchita’s lifetime (and she is already in her sixties)….. which I suppose would be a sort of affirmation of the truthfulness of the girls’ statements, Garabandal will fade away in people’s minds, and soon be forgotten.

  31. johnhenrycn says:

    A fascinating story, Kathleen, and I, for one, take it seriously, which is not quite the same as accepting its veracity, although I hasten to add that I do not doubt the honesty of those young girls. Well, maybe I do harbour some slight doubts – teensy, weensy ones – seeing as two of them had gone up the hill with the intention of stealing fruit from their schoolmaster’s apple trees, and all four were enjoying those ill-gotten gains when Conchita first saw the angel.

    As for the fact that Conchita is in her sixties, I console myself with the thought that “60 is the new 40″. She might well be looking forward to another 40 years of life and health. In any case, if she truly is a prophetess, she is obliged to bide her time until the Holy Spirit commands otherwise; and indeed, she may not even know – yet – what the Great Miracle is. She has said that it will happen at 8:30 p.m. on a Thursday feast day of a martyr, and she will be allowed to reveal it eight days in advance. Catholic Kremlinology, à la Dan Brown, is distasteful to me; but I note that Pope Benedict will be going into retirement at 8:00 p.m. on Thursday 28 February, eight days before Thursday 7 March, the feast day of SS Perpetua and Felicity, who were martyred in Carthage on March 7th, 203 by being thrown to the beasts in the amphitheatre.

  32. Toad says:

    Wonderfully loony post and comments!

    CP&S at its finest and funniest!

    “…for friends and neighbours (who I believe are quite unaware she was one of the ‘seers’ at Garabandal!)”

    Am I alone in finding this a bit “unlikely?”
    Of course.

  33. JabbaPapa says:

    Toad — God is real, and the Christ’s teachings are for all of us, no matter our circumstances nor prejudice.

    Treating some aspects of these matters as if they were “wonderfully loony” simply illustrates your acceptance of the satanic lies in question … :-(

    The story of Garabandal is helping to lead you towards a haughty, arrogant, and presumptuous dismissal and abandonment of the holy truth of our Church — it is for this exact sort of reason that the apparitions of Garabandal are viewed with suspicion.

  34. Toad says:

    “The story of Garabandal is helping to lead you (Toad, that is) towards a haughty, arrogant, and presumptuous dismissal and abandonment of the holy truth of our Church..”

    No it isn’t, Jabba.
    And if it was, how could you know, anyway?
    Revelation?
    All I’m saying is that these “apparitions” should be approached with the greatest possible skepticism, and the Catholic Church appears to agree.

    Because, if we believe “…some aspects of these matters..” we’re – by your own reckoning – stuffed by Satan, and if we don’t believe “..some aspects of these matters..” we’re stuffed, presumably by God, although maybe by Satan, again. Either way.

    Though we have to wonder why the Mother of God always chooses to appear to unlettered, often sickly, pubescent peasant girls in rural backwaters – only to impart some vague and ambigious message like, “If the world doesn’t watch out, something very bad will happen soon.”
    And, of course, it always does.
    Always will, in fact.
    Toad could do that.

    And, is it blasphemy to suggest she ought to put the message over on telly, these days?
    Yes.
    Probably.

  35. JabbaPapa says:

    Though we have to wonder why the Mother of God always chooses to appear to unlettered, often sickly, pubescent peasant girls in rural backwaters – only to impart some vague and ambigious message like

    I am not a sickly, pubescent peasant girls in a rural backwater, nor did she impart any message at all.

  36. Toad says:

    Quite right, Jabba. “Often” is the word, rather than “Always.”
    Mustn’t be dogmatic must we?

  37. kathleen says:

    John Henry @ 18:28 yesterday

    Interesting observances JH. So perhaps we should keep an eye open to see what might happen on those coming dates then, eh? ;-)

    Toad,
    As Jabba has pointed out, boys/men are also sometimes the receivers of visions of Our Blessed Lady. There was also Francisco, one of the little shepherds at Fatima.
    The probable reason very young (and sometimes simple) people are chosen to receive visions with messages for Mankind, is precisely because they are less likely to have the guile to fake a Heavenly vision.

    Is it supernaturalism per se that you have difficulty with Toad? How would you explain this strange phenomena then?

  38. Toad says:

    “Is it supernaturalism per se that you have difficulty with Toad? How would you explain this strange phenomena then?”

    Yes, I think it is, Kathleen. Because I don’t believe in the supernatural.
    There are things we don’t yet understand, and there are some we may well never understand.
    But that doesn’t make them supernatural. Just incomprehensible.
    I may be wrong, of course.
    But what “strange phenomena” are you referring to here?
    If you mean, for example, Garabandal, or Medugorje (sorry Eccles!), or Fatima – I’d leave it to the great genius Lewis (Carroll, that is, not C.S.) to explain.

    In his inimitable way:

    He thought he saw an Argument
    That proved he was the Pope:
    He looked again, and found it was
    A Bar of Mottled Soap.
    ‘A fact so dread,’ he faintly said,
    ‘Extinguishes all hope!’

    In other words, people think they see things because they want to see them.

    Including any positive outcome of the current Pope quitting.
    (Did he self-defenestrate – or was he picked up and thrown out? Dan Brown will tell us soon! No doubt.)

  39. kathleen says:

    But what “strange phenomena” are you referring to here?

    Yes, I was referring to the happenings at Garabandal. I wanted to see if you believed them to be the work of the devil, as has been mentioned.

    “In other words, people think they see things because they want to see them.”

    Sometimes perhaps!
    Like Toad right now. In your disbelief of anything “supernatural”, you are seeing things as you want to see them. ;-)

  40. johnhenrycn says:

    Being intrigued by this story, I did some further investigation and came across a couple of other YouTubes about Garabandal here and here. If pressed for time, I suggest starting with the second link at the 10:55 mark, where there’s a transcript of the predictions made by the visionaries about The Great Warning; and although I certainly will not vouch for their truth (how could I?), they sound very Catholic to me.

  41. Roger says:

    Garabandal was photographed, televised, record, scientifically tested (even sand in the eyes of the seers) and its doubted! But then is it doubted or rather is it that this generation is entrenched in materialism that it cannot, rather will not accept the reality of non material and superior life. Heaven and Hell are realities. The Warning and the Great Miracle and yes but these are not the core of Garbandal. It is the messages that have been ignored, October 18 1961 (October the month of the Miracle of the Sun in Garbandal) “Many Sacrifices must be made. Much penance must be done. We must pay many visits to the Blessed Sacrament, but first of all we must be very good. If we do not do this, punishment awaits us. Already the cup is filling, and if we do not change we shall be punished.” Then in June 19th 1962 “..The Virgin told us a message for the whole world and it is this: The Virgin has said to us that we are not expecting the Chastisement; Because we are disregarding her first message by the way we live but without expecting punishment, it will come. Because the world has not changed and now, with this message she has said it twice and we do not heed her, because the world is worse and must change much but has not changed at all. ..” Then again 23rd June 1962 “”The Virgin has told us:
    The world continues the same…That it has not changed at all. FEW WILL SEE GOD. They are so few that it causes The Virgin much sorrow. What a pity that it does not change. The Virgin told us that the Chastisement is coming seeing that the world is not changing. The cup is filling up. How sad the Virgin was although She didn’t let us see it because She loves us so much and She suffers alone. She is so good! Be good everyone so that The Virgin will be happy. She told us that We who are good should pray for those who are bad. Let us pray to God for the world for those who do not know Him. Be good…be very good everyone” THEN THE AWFUL LAST MESSAGE JUNE 18TH 1965 “Since my message of October 18, 1961 has not been complied with and has not been made much known to the world, I will tell you that this is the last one. Before the chalice was filling now it is overflowing. Many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them. To the Eucharist, there is given less and less importance. We should avoid the wrath of God on us by our good efforts. If you ask pardon with your sincere soul God will pardon you. It is I, your mother, who through the intercession of St. Michael, wish to say that you amend, that you are already in the last warnings and that I love you much and do not want your condemnation. Ask Us sincerely and we will give to you. You should sacrifice more. Think of the passion of Jesus. ..” These messages of 50 years ago are NOT promulgated instead the attraction is to the sensational. The world is like Herod that wanted to be entertained by Our Lord by a miracle. Let the words of Our Lady sink into your hearts and minds, change OR a CHASTISEMENT from GOD! Has Man changed in these 50 years?

  42. kathleen says:

    Thank you John Henry and Roger for these last comments.

    Yes Roger, in light of the recent revelations from the Polish priest, of the undercover homosexual “gangs” who have wormed their way into the highest spheres in the Church, this last supposed warning of the Blessed Virgin, gains even greater relevance.
    Many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them.”
    It is still only a very small number of men, and the majority of good and holy priests cannot be tarred with the same filthy brush, but the damage and harm this small (and powerful) group have wrought on the Church and faithful is enormous, and very worrying.

    We are all aware of what Our Blessed Lord said about those who cause scandal to those “little ones who believe in Me”, aren’t we?

  43. Toad says:

    “She (The Virgin Mary) told us that We who are good should pray for those who are bad. Let us pray to God for the world for those who do not know Him. Be good…be very good everyone” “

    Toad admits he is possibly, occasionally, somewhat over-skeptical about matters of faith – particularly involving apparitions – but do not these words strike anyone else as coming straight from the mouth (and mind) of a young, uneducated, peasant girl, rather than from the Mother of God Who Knows All?

    Why, in fact, are the messages so utterly banal? It’s almost as if the recipients were making them up themselves, out of their limited knowledge and vocabulary.

    “If you are not good, something bad will happen.” Right.
    But Toad could have told you that.

    Is it worthwhile coming all the way down from Heaven to tell us this?.

  44. golden chersonnese says:

    Why, in fact, are the messages so utterly banal? It’s almost as if the recipients were making them up themselves, out of their limited knowledge and vocabulary.

    Golden recalls saying something like that more than 30 years ago to a “spiritualist” lady, but Golden was a bit more nuanced than Toad, even at that tender age.

    The spiritualist lady, not at all a Catholic, had conceived a very great interest in the Garabandal events, no doubt owing to her habitual “spiritualism”. She had set up a sort of “Garabandal chapter” in the city concerned and was its first “prioress”.

    With a group of other young Catholics, Golden was invited one Saturday after choir practice to her home, the chapter house, to view various bits of Garabandal-ware and listen to the lady’s disquisition on the unusual phenomenon.

    I recall asking her at the end how anything at all the girls said added to what we Catholics already knew and accepted. She seemed quite puzzled at the question and merely said “oh, so you mean it doesn’t?”.

    So, Toad, perhaps we are not to be surprised that (usually) no new teachings come from these apparitions, but only that such unusual things occur, as they obviously did at Garabandal.

  45. kathleen says:

    I believe any new teachings* would automatically demonstrate that the “apparitions” (if true) were not from God. No, Our Lady at Garabandal (and always following the four girls’ testimonies) simply reiterated the time-old teachings and doctrines of the Catholic Church that so many seemed to be forgetting. As a loving mother guides, teaches and remonstrates with her children, so does Our Blessed Mother in apparition sites that have been recognised by the Church….. Perhaps at Garabandal too? We shall see.

    *With the death of the last Apostle, all Revelation necessary for Man’s Salvation had already been given.

  46. JabbaPapa says:

    kathleen, the fact that the “teaching” part of the messages contains nothing different from the most standard sort of catechetics is actually an argument *against* recognising the apparitions.

    Apparitions that have been recognised do not contradict the Faith, but they *do* provide assistance to help actively engage with it, perhaps in new ways.

    An apparition that simply reiterated the teachings that already belonged to the Deposit would provide no particular reason for it to be officially recognised.

  47. Toad says:

    “So, Toad, perhaps we are not to be surprised that (usually) no new teachings come from these apparitions, but only that such unusual things occur, as they obviously did at Garabandal.”

    Toad has no problem at all agreeing that “unusual things” took place at Garabandel, and Lourdes and Fatima, Golden.
    Or else why would these events be remembered?

    “Unusual things” also happened in the USA on Sept 9th, 2001, and at Waterloo, Belgium on June 8th, 1815.
    In fact, it would not be unreasonable to suggest that “unusual things ” happen with unusual frequency.
    No arguing with that, surely?
    However, it raises the question of how many apparitions are necessary before they lose their “miracle” status, and become mundane, workaday, happenings, like say, earthquakes, or car crashes?

  48. Frere Rabit says:

    As someone who has a high regard for authentic Marian pilgrimage sites and regards the devotion to Our Lady as central to Catholic faith and practice, my attitude towards the authenticity of Garabandal is determined by the statements that the local bishoips have made. Their view has always been sceptical.

    On October 11, 1996 the new bishop, Jose Vilaplana, placed his prohibition on the alleged apparitions and said it was final:

    “Some people have been coming directly to the Diocese of Santander (Spain) asking about the alleged apparitions of Garabandal and especially for the answer about the position of the hierarchy of the Church concerning these apparitions.

    I need to communicate that:

    1. All the bishops of the diocese since 1961 through 1970 agreed that there was no supernatural validity for the apparitions.
    2. In the month of December of 1977 Bishop Dal Val of Santander, in union with his predecessors, stated that in the six years of being bishop of Santander there were no new phenomena.
    3. The same bishop, Dal Val, let a few years go by to allow the confusion or fanaticism to settle down, and then he initiated a commission to examine the apparitions in more depth. The conclusion of the commission agreed with the findings of the previous bishops. That there was no supernatural validity to such apparitions.
    4. At the time of the conclusions of the study, in 1991, I was installed bishop in the diocese. So during my visit to Rome, as limina visit which happened in the same year, I presented to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith the study and I asked for pastoral direction concerning this case.
    5. On Nov. 28, 1992, the Congregation sent me an answer saying that after examining the documentation, there was no need for direct intervention (by the Vatican) to take away the jurisdiction of the ordinary bishop of Santander in this case. Such a right belongs to the ordinary. Previous declarations of the Holy See agree in this finding. In the same letter they suggested that if I find it necessary to publish a declaration, that I reconfirm that there was no supernatural validity in the alleged apparitions, and this will make a unanimous position with my predecessors.
    6. Given that the declarations of my predecessors who studied the case have been clear and unanimous, I don’t find it necessary to have a new public declaration that would raise notoriety about something which happened so long ago. However, I find it necessary to rewrite this report as a direct answer to the people who ask for direction concerning this question, which is now final: I agree with [and] I accept the decision of my predecessors and the direction of the Holy See.
    7. In reference to the Eucharistic celebration in Garabandal, following the decision of my predecessors, I ruled that Masses can be celebrated only in the parish church and there will be no references to the alleged apparitions and visiting priests who want to say Mass must have approval from the pastor, who has my authorization. It’s my wish that this information is helpful to you.

    My regards in Christ,
    Jose Vilaplana
    Bishop of Santander

  49. Toad says:

    Very interesting indeed, Rabit.
    It’s not Toad’s place to ask this question, not by a long chalk, but he will anyway:

    “What on earth constitutes “Supernatural Validity”?

    How can anyone this side of Purgatory, ever validate supernatural – that is to say metaphysical – events?

    (Bishop Vilapanda states his position remarkably clearly and straightforwardly, almost brutally, for a Man of the Cloth. Or so I might suggest.)

  50. JabbaPapa says:

    How can anyone this side of Purgatory, ever validate supernatural – that is to say metaphysical – events?

    The Holy Spirit, Toad — you’re being materialistic again ; which is bizarre, given that the topic is inherently metaphysical.

  51. Toad says:

    I suppose what I’m asking is what does The Holy Spirit actually do to validate such an event? And how do we know he’s done it?

  52. JabbaPapa says:

    “How” is a question that cannot be answered for supernatural events, not with material explanations anyway.

    By definition — supernatural events have no natural explanations.

    The Soul can sense the presence of the Spirit and its actions in various incommunicable, and quite variable, fashions.

    I’m told that most can only sense the workings of the Spirit in hindsight.

    Sorry — I actually do not have anything even *vaguely* resembling a comprehensive answer to your question.

  53. johnkonnor72 says:

    ..actually what the Holy Spirit does is guide the church…as Jesus says he has sent the paraclete to guide his church..that is why we always need to wait for the validation of the experts who study ..the three sources of or spirts of such penomenon..the spirit of man (which usually does things for material gain or exposure) the spirit of the devil(which usually is motivated by a hatred of all things Holy and so attempts to sow discord inside the church) the spirit of God (which is motivated by truth and charity)..however the holy spirit will guide the church through the apostolic see in this case the bishop who is the vatican representative to make a prudent judgement…the Holy spirit will convince the bishop that is how he validates an apparition..its the bishops job to quell an apparition and if there is obedience to his decree that is probably the first sign if there is a miracle asked for by the bishop then the apparition will deliver it… as mr pappa said there are so many variables and subtleties that it can be very difficult to provide a black and white answer…

  54. kathleen says:

    Jabba @ 9:18 yesterday.

    “Apparitions that have been recognised do not contradict the Faith, but they *do* provide assistance to help actively engage with it, perhaps in new ways.”

    In light of the recent revelations of infiltration of a powerful network of homophile elements in the highest spheres of the Church (the “smoke of Satan” Pope Paul VI talked of?), I would say that the words I mentioned above: “Many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them”, that Our Blessed Lady apparently spoke to the four innocent girls, could be seen to be precisely those of “assistance”, or as a warning, to the Church worldwide…… and especially to the clergy!

    Anyone old enough to remember can probably tell us whether such sins in the Church were known and talked about during the period of the Garabandal phenomena, the sixties,…. but I don’t think they were. If Our Lady did truly appear to these four girls at this time, her messages that were mainly aimed at transmitting the urgent need to pray incessantly for priests (and of the dire consequences that would follow for those priests who abuse their sacred ministry) would appear to be wholly appropriate and visionary.

    And re: the bishop’s statement that Rabit has given above, I do not think it is surprising.
    Good bishops and priests who have no knowledge of any such “crimes” being committed among their ranks, would surely find the above ‘supposed’ words of the Blessed Virgin not only outrageous, but also deeply disquieting.

    The bishop’s statement does not give any explanation though for the clearly strange phenomena that obviously did take place at Garabandal.
    Yet of course, at this stage, (i.e. before any of the prophesies of the Warning and Miracle have come true) they quite naturally could not say whether the unusual happenings that took place during those years, and the girls’ ecstatic and strange behaviour, was a result of heavenly or of ‘other’ provenance.

  55. golden chersonnese says:

    Kathleen, do you know of this gentleman of Santander, Enrique Alvarez? He seems to be suggesting that the Garabandal events have been disparaged by churchmen merely because of <a href="their modernism since the 60s and 70s. I have to confess I find that quite appealing, at least as one explanation for this episcopal dubiety, if toads are indeed any indication of such things.

    The local episcopal attitude towards Garabandal also appears to have mellowed since Frere Rabit’s bishop was transferred and replaced in 2007, the second year of the Benedictine pontificate.

  56. Toad says:

    “Many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them..”

    As you point out yourself, Kathleen, this was half a century ago. Note the tense the Virgin is said to use. She’s plainly not talking about the far-distant millennium.

    Toad would bet that every one of the cardinals and bishops of the early 60’s are dead at least 25 years now, and very probably all of the priests.
    And most of today’s supposed satanic offenders were barely out of the seminary, if even that. Probably still in short chasubles.
    It might also be worth noting that Garabandal was pre The Dreaded Vat ll. Of which, it would seem, there was nothing worth mentioning.
    Even obliquely.
    But as with the Bible and – for all I know – the Koran, we can read whatever we like into these things. And we generally do.

  57. JabbaPapa says:

    It might also be worth noting that Garabandal was pre The Dreaded Vat ll.

    Virtually simultaneous, actually …

  58. golden chersonnese says:

    Correction: Frere Rabit’s bishop of Santander was transferred in 2006. The metropolitan of Oviedo in the Principality of Asturias (also apparently quite mellow towards the Garabandal believers) administered the vacant diocese for a year, before the new and current bishop was installed in 2007.

  59. Toad says:

    “Virtually simultaneous?”

    How many month’s difference?
    More importantly, which came first? (At least, it seems important to Toad. Not very, though, to be sure.)

  60. JabbaPapa says:

    Toad, really !!! It would be quicker for you to Google this stuff yourself than requesting these simple facts in here, wouldn’t it ?

    Vatican II October 1962 – December 1965

    Garabandal October 1961 – June 1965

  61. Frere Rabit says:

    Here is the original bishop’s letter: http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/GarabandalDocs.html

    The events at Garabandal do not conform to the events that accompany the presence of Mary in genuine Marian apparitions. In fact, the weird effects that engulfed this village bore all the signs of demonic influence, and that is why opinion has always been divided on this matter. Unlike Medjugorje, which has been exposed as a scam and its credibility is now zero, the controversy still continues around Garabandal. My view is that of the local bishops, who were sceptical just as the bishop of Mostar was sceptical about Medjugorje.

    It is for the Church to judge the authenticity of private revelation and in the case of Garabandal the enthusiasts have always been disappointed to discover that the hierarchy of the Church remains alarmed and cautious. Many say that the spiritual manifestations seem oddly consistent with demonic visitation.

  62. Toad says:

    Apologies, Jabba, just another deplorable case of Toadite bone idleness, a little-known medical condition, apparently incurable in his case.

    But, I think the point is made. (Whatever it was.)
    An entire year.
    We should have been warned!
    (Unless, of course, it really was the Devil’s work!).

  63. Frere Rabit says:

    The bishop’s letter uses the phrase, “no consta la sobrenaturalidad de las referidas apariciones”; i.e., “It is not certain that the aparitions are of supernatural origin.”

    As such it is a quite recognised phrase in assessing such events, which fall into three recognised categories as far as the Church is concerned, when assessing apparitions. Either the supernatural origin is dismissed, has not been established, or is positively recognised.

    Like the scam at Medjugorje, the problem is that large numbers of the faithful have invested their genuine faith in the well-publicised events at Garabandal and the Church is lumbered with the awkward job of discerning the spiritual truth, weighing up the local politics (sadly), and trying not to disillusion too many people with a pronouncement that is too disappointing. Even in the scandalous case of Medjurgorje the CDF has sadly pulled its punches, and that has been the biggest scam in the entire history of Mariology.

  64. Toad says:

    “It is not certain that the apparitions are of supernatural origin.”

    ..so they might be apparitons of natural origin.
    Curioser and curioser.

  65. Frere Rabit says:

    Well, it hasn’t yet been established that Toad’s apparitions are entirely natural, but be thankful you have not yet attracted the attention of equivocal bishops.

  66. johnkonnor72 says:

    ….Garabandal and Medjugorje are the devils diversion tactics,,he uses these spurious apparitions to get the faithful thinking about impending calamities ..fantasy religion ..anything to lead us away from the contemlation of practical truth…similar to toad’s incessant query…curiouser and curiouser indeed..although toad’s query certainly and indirectly may lure one into the search for truth I suppose God’s way of writing straight witha crooked quill I suppose…

  67. Toad says:

    What is apparent is that these “apparitions” should all be regarded with the utmost scepticism, until further notice. What, or whenever, that might be.
    Right now, it appears clear (to Toad at least) that idle speculation regarding these “events” is likely to do more harm than good, and only reinforce the larger world’s negative prejudices about Catholicism and superstition.
    (Pompous old humbug, Toad.)
    ….Prejudices which, by the way, are currently not being given much of a positive spin by the case of Cardinal O’Brien, the UK’s Number One Catholic.
    Regarding whom, on CP&S, an ominous silence also currently prevails.
    (Though, to be sure, it’s hard to know what to say.)

  68. golden chersonnese says:

    only reinforce the larger world’s negative prejudices about Catholicism and superstition

    The larger world, Toad? Surely you mean the relatively small world of Western rational materialism, which is not even nearly accepted by everyone in the West, including some scientists.

    In the “larger world” (Asia, Africa etc), Toad, such things as these are usually regarded usually with interest (or, if not, something stronger).

  69. kathleen says:

    Golden, thank you for that interesting link (the interview with Enrique Alvarez) that I hadn’t seen before. He makes a good point that in the late 60’s, and during the 70’s, all talk of Marian apparitions was anathema. Modernism had truly sunk into most people’s mindset during those immediate years of the aftermath of Vatican II, sadly, so that much of the former piety of Catholic practice was being discarded.
    That does not mean to say that the bishop was wrong to be cautious in his statement (the one Rabit quotes above), only that no one in the Church seemed to want to encourage anything to do with Marian devotions during this period. Fortunately this has been changing back ever since Blessed John Paul II became Pope.

    Whereas I do agree that one should be wary and not jump to conclusions until the Church pronounces definitively on places where the Blessed Virgin is said to have appeared, there are dividing opinions within the Church at this moment. Caution must be paramount, and an open mind towards the validity of the apparitions is vital in this case of Garabandal. This will avoid any unnecessary embarrassment or disappointed for either group of believers or disbelievers in these apparitions. (Jabba made a very valid point about this above, when he asked what would happen were Conchita to announce the coming Miracle Our Lady supposedly talked about, then this not occurring, and Conchita subsequently losing her Faith. Unlikely, but always possible. This would doubtlessly lead to a disastrous falling away of numerous souls.)

    However, I do honestly believe that there are big differences between Garabandal and Medjugorje. In Garabandal the four ‘seers’ constantly stipulated blind obedience to Church authorities. In Medjurgorje I believe this was not the case.

  70. Toad says:

    “larger world, Toad? Surely you mean the relatively small world of Western rational materialism….?”

    Yes, Golden, I believe I did have that particular gang of loopies in mind – along with Islam, Protestantism, Hinduism, Calvinism, Buddhism, Voodooism, Neo-Paganism, Hypnotism, general Agnostico-Atheism and Sartrean Existentialism loopyism, to name but a few.

    But yes, you are right – it is indeed very foolish – downright loopy in fact – of Toad to suggest such an idea, because what all this legion of loopies is in effect saying is; “Catholicism? No thanks; A bit to too Catholic, too superstitious, for my taste.” And a very similar charge can be levelled at each and any of them.

    To put it in a nutshell (where all this clearly belongs) it takes all sorts, dunnit?.

  71. golden chersonnese says:

    The cheek!

  72. johnkonnor72 says:

    ….The devil is nothing more than a personnel rep for disneyland of the spirit…he loves it when people travel great distances and pay a lot of money to walk on alleged holy soil…money which could be given to the poor…if we concentrate on making a heaven in our hearts and carry it with us wherever we go we need pay no heed to any apparitions.. When we carry God with us we walk on Holy ground since we evince the mysteries of God’s love the eternal birth through the passion that is our individual way of the cross we become conduits catalysts for the workings of grace ….the actual secret of garabandal is in fact no secret at all..God has revealed himself through Jesus…indeed fatima has helped us understand the implications of the evils of communism…it reminds me of Lazarus and dives…. God has sent us the prophets however we did not listen…this rash of marian apparitionitis is indeed making the church catholic look a bit carivan n carnivalish…pilgrimage is good it fortifies the faith but watching the sky with jaws agaping hoping to gabble up a secret is bad for the soul…I don’t expect u to publish this…I am just bored n rambling… :-)

  73. Toad says:

    Then you should get more bored more, and ramble more JohnK, thinks Toad, as he – albeit from an entirely different perspective – wholeheartedly agrees.

    It seems to me that people believe in God because they believe in Lourdes, and all that sort of thing.
    Whereas it should surely be contrairiwise?
    But what do I know? I’m only a toad.

    “Cheek,” Golden? How? Why? What? When? Wherefore?*

    * Big Unamuno word.

  74. kathleen says:

    It seems to me that people believe in God because they believe in Lourdes, and all that sort of thing.”

    That is rubbish Toad! Or it should be. One does not even have to believe Our Lady appeared to the children at Fatima, or St. Bernadette at Lourdes, to be a true Catholic.
    The only beliefs required of a Catholic are those contained in the Nicene Creed, and explained in further detail in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

  75. Toad says:

    Any point in asking Cardinal O’Brien what he thinks of Garabandal?
    No?
    No. Thought not.

  76. johnhenrycn says:

    So, what’s new on the Fátima front? The secrets were revealed on Friday 13 July 1917. The Miracle of the Sun occurred on 13 October 1917. The third secret has not may not have been fully disclosed. Mother Angelica doesn’t think so. The 100th anniversary of the Miracle will fall on a Friday the 13th. Numerology is not a hobby of mine, but here’s an interesting article: <a href="http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?print=1&did=0413-martin"<An Epic In Search Of An Ending, about the unanswered mysteries of that fate-filled year. Will Pope Francis be the ‘Bishop of Rome’ (the title he prefers) who finally and unequivocally consecrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and what blessings will be showered upon us if he does so? And what connection is there between Fátima and Garabandal?

  77. johnhenrycn says:

    http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?print=1&did=0413-martin
    As far as I know, that article is meant to be available to subscribers (me) and non-subscribers alike.

  78. johnhenrycn says:

    Has anyone seen this movie or read this book, both about Fátima? I haven’t, but would be interested in reading the comments of those who have.

  79. kathleen says:

    I have just read that absolutely fascinating article you link to JH, and I learnt quite a bit about the ancient history of Fatima. I highly recommend everyone who loves the Holy Catholic Church and recognises the importance of the Miracle and ‘Secrets’ of Fatima to read this article.

    It appears we still await a complete Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart in the manner the Virgin Mary requested.

    Yes, I agree with the author and Mother Angelica’s opinion: the Third Secret does not seem to have been revealed in its entirety yet. Why?
    Others might also remember hearing how the Holy Father turned pale when he read the ‘Secret’ written out in full by Sr. Lucia, and knowing this to be an event that would occur in the future, placed in the Vatican archives saying that this was not an appropriate time for its revelation.

    For many of us who believe in Our Lady’s apparitions to the four girls at Garabanda, everything that she supposedly told them too, warning and pleading with them to listen, concurs absolutely with the fully recognised apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Fatima.

    What does Heaven have to do to shake us out of our stupor without actually interfering with our God-given Free Will?

  80. Roger says:

    Kathleen
    Just found this. In 1975 I attended Joey’s lecture on Garbandal in London at the Carmelite Church. I had know of Garbandal since 1970. As a child we lived in a house that was haunted and very unpleasant this was to! I was aware of Supernatural that was unpleasant and frightening.
    At the end of Joey’s lecture we were blessed by Crucifixes.
    There were two queues one for Joey and one for his helper. I was at the end of the queue of his helper. When the Crucifix touched my forhead it was like an explosion that went through my brain followed by a flood of perfume. I actually took the crucifix and tried to smell it!
    Let nobody fool you there is a Hell and there is a Heaven and Our lady is the Queen of Heaven.
    Father Malachy Martin was speaking in 1998 ( I would recommend his later radio talks).
    What he was saying was his private opinion and also without being specific elements from the third secret (he was known to have read the third secret).
    He spoke of it being a dire document! He also spoke of world system collapsing! He spoke of a corrupt Institution! Of the Loss of Grace.
    Garbandal was expressly approved by Padre Pio (Joey and Conchita confirm this).
    I believe the re igniting of the desire for War as a solution to Peace is the start of period of Purification. The banking and economic collapse that started in 2007 is just such a global system collapse. The cleansing of the Vineyard is the necessary purging of the Church.

  81. Roger says:

    I note another entry worth looking at
    http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=0413-kainz

    Considerable research has been done on Fatima and the Consecration of Russia hasn’t actually been done.
    “..The late theologian and physicist Fr. Stanley L. Jaki also agreed. He traveled to Portugal to undertake a thorough scientific investigation of eyewitness accounts and depositions regarding the “miracle of the sun,” resulting in a massively researched book, God and the Sun at Fatima (1999). He concludes that Fatima is arguably the most important event of the twentieth century, a providential sign for an era that was to witness so many incredible acts of inhumanity and immorality ..”
    “..Martin summarizes some of the detective-like sleuthing carried out by Fr. Nicholas Gruner and his associates at the Fatima Center, who are concerned that Catholics, and the Vatican in particular, have fallen far short of fulfilling Our Lady’s requests. One glaring fault, in their opinion, is the alleged truncating of the third secret when the contents of the revelations were revealed by Pope John Paul II on June 26, 2000, and the omission of a veritable “fourth secret” that was supposedly withheld from the public. As Martin mentions, Fr. Gruner and his cohort believe that “the third secret spoke of apocalyptic horrors and high-level apostasy in Rome itself.” So they have concluded that it was in the interest of the Roman hierarchy to keep this part of the secret out of publication. It was, says Martin, “not exactly the kind of thing one wants spicing up the conversation.”

    Another, perhaps even more glaring fault, they allege, is the failure of John Paul II, after soliciting the cooperation of the bishops of the world to make the requested consecration on March 25, 1984, to use the correct wording. The Pope did not mention Russia by name, but only in a diplomatic circumlocution that would be understood by the participating bishops and those familiar with the Fatima message, but would not arouse the ire of the belligerent U.S.S.R. The Pope presumably wished to avoid contributing to heightened persecution and martyrdom of Catholics behind the Iron Curtain at that time, especially in his native Poland, where the Solidarity movement was being threatened with destruction by Soviet forces. ..”

    Now Father Malachy Martins later radio interviews in the late 1990’s are revealing of the institution of the Church. He also specific said that the content of the third secret was dire! unpleasant reading with several chastisments a breakdown of the global system. He also revealed that the papacy had been undermined and down valued since 1960. He spoke of the loss of Grace and an institution that was far from perfect.

    Garabandal follows 1960 and the public warnings are critical to say the least.

    2000 years ago the Temple opposed Our Lord the rational was the Roman Occupation and law and Order etc.. Herod the sartrap ruler. The Politics of the time were used as the rational for the execution of Our Lord. But the death by the Cross of the Messiah fulfilled old prophecy’s. We should see in Fatima a similar rational at work.

    Globalisation and Free market, Communications travel etc.. Have made the smaller and at the same time very interdependent what happens to our neighbours directly impacts on Us. So world systems are something which are a distinct feature of the modern world.

    The world financial system is broken and the economic consequences of this are global. The tourist economies are suffering because surplus monies (for holidays, charity) has been taken out of the economies to prop up social spending. At the same time Wars for regime change have become part of our daily life. The Church has rocked by moral scandals and vocations in serious decline.What cannot be denied is the serious decline in Faith , the secularisation of what once was Christendom and the destruction of Christian morality.

    Are we seeing the Fatima message reaching its summation?

  82. kathleen says:

    Roger,

    Your last two comments arrived when I was off on the Chartres pilgrimage, and I have only just seen them now! Sorry for the tardy reply.

    Are we seeing the Fatima message reaching its summation?

    It seems you think we are defintely entering that phase now, and you might well be right. But I think it is wiser to not speculate too much, and leave this up to the Church authorities to decide. However, given the state of the Church in the West today, with so much betrayal of the Sacred Faith by many Catholics, or should-be Catholics, it is imperative that all of us who love their Faith should double our efforts to pray, make sacrifices and be faithful to the Magisterium. We should not let our own failings and limitations depress or deter us in doing our best to be true Christian witnesses amongst so much secularism and evil.

    Many of the messages allegedly given to the girls at Garabandal are along the same lines as those given to the little seers of Fatima, although more emphasis on the crisis within the clergy (“many Cardinals, many Bishops, and many Priests are on the path of perdition and they take many souls with them“) was given at Garabandal.
    Sadly, with the latest scandals in the Vatican that have come to light, so much of this we are now seeing for ourselves!

  83. Roger says:

    Hi Kathleen
    The problem that surfaced in 2007 was the size of the Global Debt and how much Fiat monies had been created with nothing behind those Debts. The effect is as devastating on economies as any War in as much as it has channelled public money away from services into attempting to repair this deficit.
    The Debt has undermined the value of the Democracy in as much as governments have been imposing unpopular economic and fiscal policies (because of the Debt).
    The picture is similar to that of the Great Depression but this is far far worse. It means that there is less surplus money for Charity (and the Church is a Charity!).
    The attack on the Faith from modern science (and so much of this is opinion rather than fact!) has generated a generation that doesn’t know the Faith or just considers it a medival relic!
    Its looking at the size and scope of the problem and seeing that exposure to Christianity has been marginalised.
    I do not doubt the Faith but I realise that the Triumph can only come through the Cross. The Cross has no appeal to this generation because it looks like failure! Our Lord looked a complete failure, rejected scorned and reviled! The Church is destined to live this Failure (think of that picture of the Fatima painted in 2000).
    The world with its utter rejection of Christ and its insistence on human morality based on reason is on a collision course with Heaven.

  84. Roger says:

    The point about Garabandal is the level of scientific tests and records and analysis. Mystical phenomenon etc. etc. It would be foolish to deny after 50 years actually the delay isn’t a Ecclesiaistical approval its because its unfinished.
    But lets understand Free Will and what it means and doesn’t mean. There is a balance permitted by God between Evil and Good. If this wasn’t the case there would be no value to Free Will. If Heaven intervenes especially with a Public miracle then The Devil is also permitted to raise His level of Temptation. To understand this is to see and appreciate Loudres and Fatima. Remember what Our Lord said to St Peter about Satan sifting Peter? Well the permission given to Satan to try to destroy the Church in the 20th Century had to be matched by Heaven to preserve Free Will.
    The point is that we are always better living by Faith because we merit more! Now Gods intervention at Garbandal WILL MEAN that Satan will be permitted to raise His game in other words things will get worse!!
    Since 9/11 the West has become used to an has accepted War! The Middle East is a powder keg and we have a Global Depression with Austerity. A generation without Jobs and benefits being cut (the effect of the Debt) . Mix into this a decline in Vocations and the sex scandals and rejection of the moral Authority of the Church.
    It is this broad but global scenario that presents itself. Now Fatima according to the late Malachy Martin was dire with a breakdown in Global systems? (that is Man) the present crisis continues and is far from being resolved and it is for this reason that I believe we have entered this Fatima period,

  85. Toad says:

    “Since 9/11 the West has become used to, and has accepted War!”

    Are you suggesting it didn’t before, Roger? The West – in fact the world – has been used to war as long as it has existed. Not much evidence of rejection, either.

    “If Heaven intervenes especially with a Public miracle then The Devil is also permitted to raise His level of Temptation.”
    You make it sound like a game of ping-pong.

  86. Roger says:

    Toad I welcome your comments. It isn’t a game sadly because its about eternity. The mystery if Iniquity. If you look closely at the Life of Our Lord and especially the seven days of Holy week you find Genesis re enacted. The appetite for War has accelerated since 9/11 and as was seen with the two previous World Wars (bye the way this is a World War because the War against Terrorism is being fought Globally!) tactics and sophistication of weaponry is growing and changing.
    Drones for instance BUT this is clearly the tip of the iceberg.
    For the recod Our Lord came at a time when there was War!! Check this out its true He is the Prince of Peace. He came at a time of Peace within the then Roman Empire.
    The Bible is replete with Satan talking to God and being given permissions. Look at Job for instance and Our Lords dealings with Judas. Our Lord told Peter that Satan had asked to sift Peter! Few realise that Darkness has its time BUT this is because of Mans choices. Satan is permitted to possess and own those who Have chosen Him. This is of course Just because of Free Will. Man judges himself Toad. Man chooses Hell himself rather than face God , this to was the Case with Adam and Eve .
    Satan is a condemned Fallen Angel but he retains His intelligence.
    The folly of Man today is the same as those who wanted to see whether the Crucified would save himself? But the Wisdom of Our Lord is folly to Man! This is so evident today.
    The Devil has rights are because of the Free Will choices of Men.
    The question to ask today is are we living in a General Global Apostacy? That is the question and a generation has been brought up in Old Christendom that hasn’t been Baptised and are therefor under the authority of Satan. The West has ignored Grace and opened the door to Satan trying to reverse the Passion. But because of the Passion that Old World pre redeemer has Ended so Mans State today in rejecting Christ is Worse than it was before.
    Garabandal and the Illumination Of Consciences will reveal the reality that Man is both Flesh and Spirit. Actually Garabandal . Fatima and Loudres have already proven this,
    Today with the stripping away of the Social Service budgets civil protests will escalate so the Global Debt has led to social breakdown between the Governments and the electorate at the same time as advances in the weapons of War.
    I hope you enjoyed this weeks New scientist with its explaination of the complexity of the weather and organic matter! How the weather is effected through greed and the profit motive.

  87. Toad says:

    “I hope you enjoyed this weeks New Scientist with its explanation of the complexity of the weather and organic matter! How the weather is affected through greed and the profit motive.”

    Comforting to learn that Toad is APPROVED BY ROGER
    I have not read the article, and probably won’t, unless it goes online, but the assertion, that greed and profit play a significant part in climate change, fails to amaze me.
    Because they play a significant part in everything else. Always have done, actually.
    Even and often, alas, in the workings of religious organisations.
    As I know you will agree.
    I also agree that future prospects for mankind do not look rosy.
    But I also know, from past experience, that they never do: Viz Burro’s “When The Wind Blows” movie.

    “The attack on the Faith from modern science (and so much of this is opinion rather than fact!) has generated a generation that doesn’t know the Faith or just considers it a medival relic!”
    That is your opinion, anyway, Roger. “Science” actually attacks nothing.
    It is a process, not a creature. It doesn’t attack, or defend, or eat or smoke, or carry a gun. It is neither good nor evil. Its outcomes can only be interpreted in such ways.

    But more interesting (to Toad) is your assertion that the Church is seen as a “medieval relic.” Well of course it is – because that’s how it presents itself, with its practitioners wearing medieval clothes in (generally) mock medieval churches, and conducting services in mock medieval language. That is the perception, at least.
    Looking “medieval”is not necessarily a bad thing, might even be a good one, but you can hardly blame people for getting the impression. that it really is medieval. Because it looks that way.
    In fact it’s, in part, what Vat ll was about,
    I think we’d all agree on CP&S.

  88. Roger says:

    Instead of a critic of Garbandal and Fatima better by far to look at the changes since over the 100 years or so since the start of the World War One. Changes which are deliberately against the morality of natural Law and the Faith.
    Divorce , Abortion, Debt (Keynes is about spending out of a crisis), permissiveness,politics narrowing into capitalism and socialism, separation of state and church, homosexuality and now gay marriage, regime change. Realise that these will never be withdrawn!!! That these progressive and planned changes will never be taken back.
    The world has been highjacked by Anti Christian Laws and a Law which is against the natural Law is a tyranny and Laws against Christ in once Christian Countries are choosing Anti Christ (opposite).
    Now prayer and penance also requires a public stance for the Faith. Nothing can withstand Christs Love and Empires and regimes that stand against him are brought down. Learn the truth of Holy week the Jews and their hiearchy brought the Dispora down on themselves. Rome was conquered by Christ. Open your eyes to how Gods Folly , the Folly of the Cross is the destruction of Satans Empire.
    It is no different today, Self is our enemy.
    Humble yourself and armed with the Rosary (includes the Cross!) and the scapular Anti Christs modern Global Empire will Fall.
    All that is preventing the Triumph Of Our Lady is Faith! Living Faith that stands against the false wisdom of this world. Better we do this than God intervenes!!!

  89. Toad says:

    The new star ratings are very nice and decorative , A plus, I think.

    “..the Jews and their hierarchy brought the Diaspora down on themselves.”

    …As Young Toad was often told by the priests at his school.
    That’s why it’s all right to be nasty to them. Or used to be. Different now, of course.

    “Better we do this than God intervenes!!!”

    God’s intervention is not going to be very nice then, is it Roger? Nasty, in fact. Horrible, most like.
    Serves us all right, no doubt.
    But rather difficult to reconcile this with His infinite love for us benighted fools, who know not what we do,
    Or so it would appear. (To Toad)

    WHO WAITS (as is customary) HOPEFULLY FOR APPROVAL

  90. Roger says:

    Toad
    God Love isn’t to be confused with fickle human Love that has Self interest mixed within it.
    Get back to Man and Free Will. The Jews chose to kill the Messiah. Souls choose themselves Heaven or Hell they choose and that is what happened in Jerusalem. Not all because a very small number remained with the Crucified. The Dispora was a matter of choice Toad. In England a generation under Henry VIII chose the Crown over the Pope.
    This is the danger facing the West today it knows it is going against the Natural Laws and those of Christ. The Governments know what they are doing but Anti Christ is a creature of Hatred as Our Lord is of Love. All Anti Christ wants is Souls for every taken from God.
    Toad Man will blame God unfortunately this is what will happen. Its already happening because Science is in denial of God.
    The Law of prayer and penance is a consequence of Original Sin which is why Our Lord was Crucified and why the Perpetual Sacrifice (at the moment of the priests celebrants Communion) was left with man. But if the prayer and penance is reduced or becomes non existent then it is the Laws built into Nature that Act against Man.
    Garabandal, Fatima, Lourdes Prayer and penance!
    Incidently we must NOT be nasty to anybody!! We must see Our Lord in Our neighbour! Away with a false zeal that sees the error in Our neighbours eye and ignores the Blindness in Our own.
    It matters Not whether Muslim, Jew, Head Hunter we are to Love Our neighbour.
    But we must always defend God and He is Love

  91. kathleen says:

    Hi Roger,

    A great comment, except for these words: “The Jews chose to kill the Messiah.”

    We have to be careful here. Some Jews wanted the death of Jesus, yes, and did not recognise Him as their ‘Messiah’. (How much blame they have for that, we do not know.)
    All the first thousands of followers of Jesus were Jews who did recognise Him as the Messiah. Jesus Himself, His Blessed Mother, the Apostles, including St. Peter, the first Pope, and many converts down through the centuries who have embraced the Faith, have been Jews. It is thanks to these Jews that the Glorious Faith has been handed down to us. So how can Jews, as a race, be blamed for the death of Jesus?
    It was the Romans anyway who did the dirty work of crucifying Our Blessed Lord.

    The real culprit of the Crucifixion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ is Mankind as a whole. Our sins led to Our Saviour coming to suffer and die for us.

  92. Roger says:

    My apologise Kathleen. The Faith was spread by the Jews and we must recognise that the Bible came from these who were at variance with those who remained within the Mosaic tradition.
    So what happened in Jerusalem well the better view is to look at the judgement of a soul. That soul either goes to or runs away from God.
    Sic Judas John 13
    [27] And after the morsel, Satan entered into him. And Jesus said to him: That which thou dost, do quickly.

    [30] He therefore having received the morsel, went out immediately. And it was night.

    Notice Satan possessed Judas! and that extrodinary observation “And it was night!!”
    Extrodinary because John 1
    [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
    [5] And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    Darkness Genesis 1
    [4] And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness.

    Matthew 25
    [30] And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Finally look at the Passion and the DARKNESS that came over Golgotha
    You see Jerusalem chose the destruction of Life Light! and therefor inherited Darkness . In other words did what Judas did and brought darkness at midday down upon themselves, The same is happening now man in his Free Will has chosen darkness and this is Satans Domain. Jerusalem chose the Darkness over the Light.

    Now today globally this choice is being made rejecting Christ and turning away from him BUT this means choosing Darkness (Satan) , Henry VIII chose Darkness.

    Garbandal and the Anathema on Adam and Eve
    “..We must make many sacrifices, perform much penance, and visit the Blessed Sacrament frequently. But first, we must lead good lives. If we do not, a chastisement will befall us. The cup is already filling up, if we do not change, a very great chastisement will come upon us…”
    The Cross is placed on this Fallen World and Man is placed under Gods Anathema to do penance. But what happens if Adam refuses? What happens if there is No prayer and penance? Well this is a Fallen world with Laws that if ignored come back to chastise Us. Just like the wayward School Boy.
    Man is deliberately ignoring the Creator and the imperative for performing penance! so inevitably Creation starts to Act against Man the rebel.

  93. Glenn says:

    For daily stories ,updates, questions and answers, check out my facebook page. I have worked with Joey Lomangino (and have been friends with Conchita ) for over 20 years. https://www.facebook.com/groups/163674987784/

  94. Pingback: THE STORY OF GARABANDAL – FIFTY YEARS LATER | konsmaka

  95. Glenn says:

    The ” URGENCY OF GARABANDAL” my radio interview has been edited down from 2 hours to only 48 minutes ! If you haven’t heard this interview and you want to learn more about the apparitions & messages of our Blessed Mother at Garabandal, please listen.
    http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=132421&cmd=tc

  96. kathleen says:

    Thank you for this Glenn, and for the Facebook link.

    Having befriended a reliable witness of many of the apparitions at Garabandal (since deceased), then visiting this lovely unspoilt village myself where I had the unexpected meeting with Jacinta (one of the then grown up visionaries), plus reading loads of amazing testimonies, like that of the holy Jesuit, Fr. Luis Andreu, the more convinced I am of its authenticity.
    I understand the need for caution before Church approval can be given, and I would say that it is especially wise to be cautious in anything dealing with the supernatural after the rather unfortunate revelations of other phoney apparition sites, but to me everything about Garabandal rings true.

    For those who have not seen these videos, I think this link would be interesting:
    http://www.garabandal.it/en/multimedia/video

  97. Roger says:

    We must NOT blindly follow! This was the mistake made by the Jews 2000 years ago. Blindly followed. Garbandal isn’t about the attraction of the supernatural although these have been studied documented by the Church for centuries. Its about the Faith and that in every Age God speaks through Prophets. St Catherine of Siena who told a Pope what to do springs to mind!
    Also St Joan D’Arc who was condemned by certain prelates and later canonised.
    Look at the central message of Garbandal which is the chosen Road. The Broad or the Narrow? If we blindly followed prelates in England then Henry VIII is vindicated! Never forget that the smoke of Satan entered the CHURCH! The certain knowledge of P2 and Masonry. Where is the evidence that this was purged?
    There are two pillars to the Faith. The Holy Bible and Sacred Tradition (in this is found the Apostolic Succession). So the test is any lukewarm or undermining of these two pillars. Any road that leads away from these is not of God. No matter whom puts this forward.

  98. kathleen says:

    Yes Roger, but the correct interpretation of the Holy Bible, and the safeguard of Sacred Tradition (that comes from the entirety of God’s Revelation to Man up to the death of the last Apostle, St. John) are protected by the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!! The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, in its sacred teachings on Dogma and Doctrine, is our anchor to the Truth. It is for this very reason that Jesus Christ built his Church on Peter (and his successors), so that we should not lose our way.

    It is true that some ‘prelates’ are not faithful to their calling – and here careful discernment is vital – and may even teach heresies, but as one commenter on another thread wisely pointed out the other day, if we have any doubts, all we have to do is to pick up a copy of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church to know what the Body of Christ (the Church) really teaches. Most Bishops and priests are faithful sons of the Church, and we should be grateful and pray for our ‘shepherds’ who guide their ‘flocks’ towards Heaven.

  99. Roger says:

    Kathleen there are great lessons to be learned from the teaching Church and Magisterium in its history. Most notable the Arian heresy that at one point included a Pope. St. Athanasius stayed with Christ through a most perilous time. So we must be sure that we are really with the teaching Church and the Magisterium whihc many times isn’t the majority!
    Garbandal is a disgrace there has not yet been any definitive pronouncement regarding Garbandal. The Church has NOT condemned it! Popes have meet the visionaries! There is nothing revealed at Garbandal contrary to the Faith! The first investigation ignored the seers and the parish priest! it was a disgrace.
    As for Holy writ well its lessons are timeless and the Holy Ghost is still revealing Dogmas and the Truth.
    What I am not hearing nor seeing is putting the Love of God first! Defending the Divine Rights. Where is the St Athanasius in this Day?

  100. Thank you for thIs interesting information. Give total value to the Holy Eucharist, go to confession, pray for Priest who are always under attack and lead good lives. God Bless

    P.S. Toad, when Our Lady is saying “man”, this refers to both men and woman..

  101. Michael Ross says:

    Being a new Catholic (2013) and one of the 1st stories I learned of was Garabandal. I believe it and count it as one of the reasons I became Catholic. In defending Our Lady one must make note that those who choose to spend the time saying something is false or of the devil get quite strong worded/mad/irate when they do. That is not faith speaking – that is demonic influences. If you’re finding fault and getting angry about Garabandal or Medjugorje even Kibeho I challenge you to discern your feelings. Why does anger well up inside of you? I’ve found the most faithful need not aggression or mean words of attack to defend Our Lady.

    I pray my words be of a guide to you this day and that Our Lady brings your troubles to the foot of her son’s cross for intercession in your salvation. Peace for us all and this world – Long live Mary & Jesus forever, Michael R.

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