Some of you will be already acquainted with Michael Voris. He is one of those extremely outspoken religious commenters uniting an undoubted Catholic orthodoxy with affirmations of shocking harshness which, if taken out of context, could even seem to invite to open revolt against the See of Peter (which is very obviously not the case).
Father Z has linked to his latest video here and invited to a poll without making any comment. After listening to the video (the usual mixture of spoken word and written repetition of key words) I have participated to the poll voting the second option, “he got a few things wrong but in the main I agree”. To my surprise, it turns out that I am clearly in the minority, with “that video was dead on target” taking more than two and a half votes for every “I agree in the main” vote.
As it is not necessary to be logged in to vote, I would invite the readers to visit Father Zuhlsdorf’s beautiful Internet site, listen to the video, cast their vote and… continue the discussion here!
I don’t understand what the possible controversy might be. He is self-evidently correct. It’s an excellent summary of the crux of the crisis.
I do have a problem when Mr. Voris implies or says openly that the Church has become Protestant. If the Church has become Protestant, than it is not the Church of Christ anymore! If it is the Church of Christ, than it has not become Protestant!
Of course he merely means that there are protestants influences within the Church; of course he merely means that single individuals within the Church are clearly on an heretical path. But when he for example says that “the leaders of the Church back then embraced Protestantism” (around 1:00) he is saying that the Holy Ghost stopped guiding the leaders of the Church completely, to the point of leading the Church itself into heresy. Or take the following: “the Church in America has succombed to the heresy of Protestantism” (2:20). Same here as before: the Church is the Body of Christ. Single individual may err or be cowards or ignorant or even outright evil, but to say that the Church as such got it completely wrong smacks of Protestantism to me.
We can’t say to the Protestants that they are wrong because the Only Church is the guarantor of the Catholic Truth, and then say among ourselves that the Church has stopped being it! We can’t say to a Protestant that Christ promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church, and say that they have!
I must say, though, that I understand those expression as unlucky formulations meant to bring the point home (current bishops are often cowards, don’t teach the Faith, and “can’t do their job”) rather than meant to embrace the Protestant argument of “The Church once got it right but now has it completely wrong”.
It’s a matter of degrees Mundabor. Of course he does not mean, “The Church is no longer the Church”. He means, “The Church is currently infested by protestant theology and hardly knows Herself anymore” and he is spot-on.
I agree with you that he means it well.
The presence of prople like him is a testimony that in the USA the opposition to the fuzzy, diabetes-inducing, no-obligations, isn’t-it-all-so-wonderful sugary Church is probably more advanced than by us (or alternatively the decay had never been as strong as by us).
I was rather more (pleasantly) surprised at father Z giving such prominence to a voice so openly critical of his colleagues. It shows than harsh criticism, when necessary, is not incompatible with the work of an excellent priest.
Oportet ut scandala eveniant.
Mundabor, he means what he says, but remember he is talking about the Church in America and not the Universal Church. His comments could apply equally to the Church in England, which is also riddled with heresy and dissension. There are areas of the World where the Church seems to be in terminal decline and may indeed die but universally she won’t – and can’t.
Of course the Holy Ghost is still leading the Church, but sometimes it seems that a large swathe of prelates and priests are shutting their ears to Him (or Her, as the heretical priest of our parish, whose Masses I never attend, wrote in the weekly bulletin!) Somewhere out there, though, there are people listening.
“Where Peter is, there is the Church” is a dictum to which I cling by the skin of my teeth, because I am only a footstep away from Sedevacantism and that is thanks to the post- Vatican II teachings. In trying to reach out to Protestants, and compromising traditional teachings to make the Church more attractive to people of other faiths, the Church has alienated Catholics like me. That doesn’t matter, of course, because we have been replaced by the hordes of protestants who have flocked to join us!
I often hear it said that the Church must move with the times and try to accommodate the changing mores of the world today. No, eternal truths are unchanging. People have to alter their life styles in accordance with the Church’s teachings.
Understand you 100%. But keep on clinging: I am more and more convinced that after all this nightmare is over the Church is going to enter into a period of great glory. It’s always been like that in Her history, always. Keep on fighting, but worry not.
if I understand correctly when he says “the leaders of the Church have embraced Protestantism” he means: the leaders of the Church. Even the later references to the Church in the USA seems far too harsh to me, as there are many courageous bishops fighting the good fight as we speak (and I do not mean writing letters to the Telegraph. I mean people who take it seriously). Bruskewitz (?), Nolan, Gomez come immediately to mind, let alone excellent and well known priests with a vast following like Father Corapi.
I always avoid affirmations like “The Church of here and there has become protestantised” because this seems to me to give massive ammunitions to Protestants and Atheists. I would then say “too many priests and bishops around act in a way which justifies the suspect they are protestantised”; this tells the problem as it is but doesn’t touch the Church as a collective entity. The Church is the Body of Christ, every generalisation of “the Church is Protestant” makes me cringe, even if it is referred only to a regional Church.
But again, I think on the whole it is clear what it is meant: he is no sedevacantist nutcase shouting “the Church is no more” , but a very orthodox and courageous Catholic.
Mundabor: Not all Sedevacantists are nutcases! They are confused and despairing when they see Popes kissing the Koran, having Buddhas on the Altar, giving episcopal rings to protestant archbishops, attending synogogues etc.etc. Are these gestures ever reciprocated?I don’t think so. They see liturgical abuses tolerated without a word of admonition and they ask themselves “can we truly see the successor of Peter in the chair of Rome”? They are asking a reasonable question. I ask it myself. They may have no patience but nutcases they are not.
M — No offence intended, but Protestants don’t really care about the Catholic Church unless they wish to convert or enter into some oecumenical gesture, like American Evangelicals.
Atheists, on the other hand, are another matter entirely.
the first that you said 😉
I am glad to know that there are some sedevacantists who are not nutcases. My answer to them is that unchecked abuses have existed for 2000 years and therefore sedevacantism mean that the history of papacy should have been, if left to them, almost entirely an history of sedevacantism.
Papacies have been bought and sold; ascensions to Papacy used to make war against rival families; illegitimate sons of cardinals have been made bishops and cardinals at a very young age; corruption has been everywhere.
Compared to the papacy of the Caetanis and Colonnas, of the Borgias and Della Roveres, today’s Cardinal and Popes are convent school boarders.
And then there is the implicit mistrust of Christ: so little is their faith in Him, that by the first Bugnini strolling along they think that Christ has lied to them and the Holy Ghost is now playing with them to see how much they can bear?
What kind of Christianity is this?
Convincing points, Mundabor!
Where should I be without you?!